A strange HD crashing....

[Gray_Area]

It's like this: my PC will freeze, or sometimes start and say 'disk boot failure', I reach in the case and flick the connection of the PATA to SATA power connector, and I hear the drive start up, and windows loads. There's no environmental vibration other than the machine itself, and I tried another lead from the power supply. Still happens intermittently. It also bonks half my forum 'logged-on' cookies.

I replaced the ram. I guess I should replace the power supply. But I'm curious as to your diagnosis?

[shmokes]

You should replace PATA to SATA adapter and if the problem persists you should replace the hard drive. You've already narrowed the problem to intermittent connection with the power connector. So the problem is either with the cable or the connector. You ruled out the cable. Luckily, since you're using an adapter, you've got one more thing to rule out before the problem becomes the connector on the drive itself. Unless you have the skills to replace that you'll have to replace the entire hard drive.

[ark_ader]

You should replace PATA to SATA adapter and if the problem persists you should replace the hard drive. You've already narrowed the problem to intermittent connection with the power connector. So the problem is either with the cable or the connector. You ruled out the cable. Luckily, since you're using an adapter, you've got one more thing to rule out before the problem becomes the connector on the drive itself. Unless you have the skills to replace that you'll have to replace the entire hard drive.

Good idea Shmokes, but I think it is the PSU.  What wattage is it, and what do you have running inside it?

I have 3 USB powered drives, a dual core 16gb and 4 Sata drives and a HD5470 all running inside a 350Watt PSU and I get that freaky random system reboot is kinda close to what you are experiencing (the hard drives are not getting enough power or the mainboard) with system intermittent issues or device failure (my USB powered drives sometimes never start) .  If you have a 500+ Watt PSU you should be OK.  I have a duplicate setup on the my other machine and that has a 500W PSU which never has a problem.

I would use the below calc to see if your PSU is the culprit and maybe look at replacing it before your system wakes up dead.

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

My calculation is 293 Watts based on my troubled system specification which explains why I have issues running any complex games like Crysis 2.

[shmokes]

I doubt it is the PSU.

I reach in the case and flick the connection of the PATA to SATA power connector, and I hear the drive start up, and windows loads.

Physically flicking a power connector would not cause an extra jolt of juice from a faulty or underpowered PSU to get the system going. I've seen plenty of crazy PSU related problems, but I can't see how a PSU could cause the behavior described here. What he's describing is a short. He's ruled out the wiring, leaving him with either the adapter or the connector on the drive.

[Dervacumen]

You might try unplugging the SATA connector at the motherboard and using a different one on the motherboard, or even swapping out another SATA cable.  It's possible that the act of flicking the power adapter near your hard drive is also slightly moving the SATA cable from the drive to the motherboard.  I hate troubleshooting this type of stuff.

[Gray_Area]

You might try unplugging the SATA connector at the motherboard and using a different one on the motherboard, or even swapping out another SATA cable.  It's possible that the act of flicking the power adapter near your hard drive is also slightly moving the SATA cable from the drive to the motherboard.  I hate troubleshooting this type of stuff.

I forgot to mention I already replaced the cable with a new one. I don't know why whowever assembled this unit put such an old power supply in....but it is 250, and even with three drives, an optical drive, and four USB devices connected (video is onboard), it calcs below this. I'll have to find me a PATA to SATA power connector.

[Gray_Area]

I ended up getting a Corsair 430w PSU (I did a bunch of research: techupdate had a glowing review of it a few years back) at Newegg for $25 after rebate (ebay let me down!). Then we should soon know what the deal is.

[lilshawn]

jesus ---fudgesicle--- a 250 watt power supply?!?!?!?!?!  

no wonder the thing is flaking out on you.

a 500 watter can be had for under $30

Avoid Sparkle power supplies (SPI). Thats all.

[shmokes]

Am I missing something? A flaky power supply cannot cause a problem that would be fixable by jiggling the connector where it connects to the hard drive. Can one of you people fingering the power supply as the culprit please justify your conclusion?

[lilshawn]

power supplies are at best 80% efficient....and most of them cannot even supply the rated power without self destructing.

running 3 harddrives, an optical drive, motherboard...maybe videocard on what I can now only assume is at LEAST 5 year old power supply (since i couldn't find anything less than a 500 watt powersupply out in the wild if i tried.)

The caps in that supply are going to be weak as hell (maybe even swollen)

Am I missing something? A flaky power supply cannot cause a problem that would be fixable by jiggling the connector where it connects to the hard drive. Can one of you people fingering the power supply as the culprit please justify your conclusion?

Wonky power causes all sorts of weird stuff to happen. I had a 500 watt supply caps go and my boot drive would randomly cut out....the other 3 worked just fine. I thought the drive was going and swapped it started losing data on the new drive....then I thought the board so i ended up buying a new computer....never even dawned on me the power supply. swapped the power supply for the new one i bought. Not a peep. (ive since replaced the entire computer with the components i bought and moved the drives to my new computer with no problems.)

ripped open that supply, sure enough it had the tops popped on about 5 of the caps.

[shmokes]

You've explained that a faulty power supplies can cause erratic behavior. And you've described how an underpowered power supply can be similarly problematic. And I absolutely agree on both accounts. But I don't see how it could cause a problem that could be reliably fixed by jiggling the power connector where it plugs into the hard drive.

[lilshawn]

You've explained that a faulty power supplies can cause erratic behavior. And you've described how an underpowered power supply can be similarly problematic. And I absolutely agree on both accounts. But I don't see how it could cause a problem that could be reliably fixed by jiggling the power connector where it plugs into the hard drive.

...



...


god's plan? 

[ark_ader]

Shmokes is trying to impress you that he got his A+.   

Well done Shmokes, hope it fares you better than that worthless law degree. 

[lilshawn]

You've explained that a faulty power supplies can cause erratic behavior. And you've described how an underpowered power supply can be similarly problematic. And I absolutely agree on both accounts. But I don't see how it could cause a problem that could be reliably fixed by jiggling the power connector where it plugs into the hard drive.

...



...


god's plan? 

Shmokes is trying to impress you that he got his A+.   

Well done Shmokes, hope it fares you better than that worthless law degree. 

Is this a bad time to tell everyone i'm atheist? Guess it would have been funnier if everyone knew. Can we start over?

[shmokes]

Shmokes is trying to impress you that he got his A+.  

Well done Shmokes, hope it fares you better than that worthless law degree.  

Ark, your profession is supposedly IT. Your diagnosis is power supply. Shouldn't you be able to defend your analysis? How did you reach that diagnosis? My IT qualifications are irrelevant. You could have your CCNA and MCNE and you'd still be wrong. Unless you're right, of course, but you seem disinclined to explain how you reached your conclusion.

[Yenome]

as soon as i read you flicking the connector makes it work. its either a loose pin in the pata female connector or its in the other end of the apdater.
plus even a 250w power supply can provider more than enough power. its amps that matter when it comes to running things like video cards and hdd. people feel oh bigger watts is better and most time if you calc it up you can do a 50watt bump and 5 - 10 more amps and run stable. course the other thing is single or multi rail. i like waffles btw bring on the waffles. i have no degree i just do lots of research when i need something. shame most the techs i talk to on the phone dont know a pata from a sata.

[lilshawn]

you got my vote for saying "waffles" x2

[Dervacumen]

I really didn't take the time to articulate my thoughts properly.
I'm imagining the SATA port on your motherboard may be flaky.  If it were flaky due to a bad or cracked solder joint then the act of flicking the PATA to SATA power connector may cause the SATA cable that runs between your motherboard and the drive to move slightly.  I arrive at this possible scenario because the power and SATA connection ports on a SATA drive are so close together.  SO, if flicking the power causes movement in the SATA cable, then that cable may wiggle down where it connects to the motherboard, thus completing the connection.  This would give the appearance that the flicking the power cable did the trick, when in fact you're actually moving the SATA cable inadvertently.  Since a new cable didn't fix it, it would be either the SATA port on the drive or the SATA port on the MB.  So using a different SATA port on your MB may solve the problem.  I have a SATA port on my MS that flakes out.  Took me a while to diagnose my drive problem, and this was it.

Maybe that's clearer.

[ark_ader]

It is not really that difficult.  If you have a Sata to Pata interface (I have one sitting next to me) that requires a molex and not a SATA power connector and it is losing power, then you you need:

1) A tighter fitting molex -> which you can get on a new PSU.

2) A molex to Sata connector (sitting next to me too) but you might have faulty molex sockets that can hinder your efforts so go to 1

3) A Sata power connector -> which you can get on a decent modern low cost PSU.

Like Shmokes knows.  Faulty hard drives are bad news.  Trying to create a problem where a drive can go bad is not a good thing, especially if you being cheap.

Better to buy a PCI Sata card and a new PSU and resolve the issue, than going cheap and having to restore your arcade drive.  That is if you have backed it up already.  

Shmokes wants me to defend my argument.  Simple risk analysis.  No degrees here just experienced work as a field technician for over 20 years.  Fix it fast, fix it right.

I had the same problem.  I bought several Buffalo External Drives (640gb) and decided that I had enough with power bricks and USB cables being littered all over my desk.  So I cracked open the cases and mounted them in my development server.  The problem being the abundance of PATA interfaces and no Sata.  I should follow my own advice and buy a PCIEx1 Sata card, but the drives are used as storage and rarely activated, and I opted for the PATA to Sata interfaces with the Molex power.    No I go for the Pata to Sata and it worked very well until things started to go pear shaped.

I got problems with the connectors too.  Reboots etc.

I just got a new mainboard + CPU that has oodles of sata ports to replace this ageing behemoth which will go into my Weecade.  

Don't mess about with your data.  It is so easy to lose it and when it is gone, it is very hard to get it back.  

[ark_ader]

You've explained that a faulty power supplies can cause erratic behavior. And you've described how an underpowered power supply can be similarly problematic. And I absolutely agree on both accounts. But I don't see how it could cause a problem that could be reliably fixed by jiggling the power connector where it plugs into the hard drive.

...



...


god's plan?  

I think you are looking for some attention.

Congratulations on your recent discovery, and I am sure it will work for you when the crap hits the fan in your life.

I have some jerks who show up at my door early every Sunday morning offering me pamphlets, saying the world is going to end.  

I keep telling them to ignore me and try to save my hard drives.

Should I point them in your direction?  

[shmokes]

Shmokes wants me to defend my argument.  Simple risk analysis.  No degrees here just experienced work as a field technician for over 20 years.  Fix it fast, fix it right.

I want you to defend your analysis because it is stupid. He already tried another power connector, ruling out the odd loose molex connector (and who are we kidding, 4-pin molex power connectors are always 10x tighter than they need to be). Replacing a power supply does not address a faulty connector on a hard drive and it only indirectly addresses a faulty PATA to SATA adapter in an absurdly expensive way. You're obnoxious, as usual, but more importantly your advice was stupid.

BTW, telephone tech support is not what field technicians do.

[lilshawn]

replace the power supply because 250watts is absurdly small

[Yenome]

i should of said all techs. cause even the ones who come out to my house seem lost on what to do till they get a supervisor around then he knows what to do most times. for 4 months i suffered from internet disconnection problems. was told it was a bad modem. was told it was my TV sending electricity back down the line knocking the modem off. was told it was my wiring in the house. finally they replaced the line from the pole to the house and then it went away and went stable again. i want to switcher to fiber. once i get some spare money ea month ill have a line put in.

[shmokes]

replace the power supply because 250watts is absurdly small

Building with a larger power supply than 250 watts to begin with is good general advice. Replacing a 250 watt power supply that is working perfectly well and apparently providing adequate juice is extraordinarily poor advice. What's the point? You do a bunch of work and end up with a computer with a new power supply that works perfectly well and apparently provides adequate juice. You're no better off than you were. It's a totally unnecessary expense that offers absolutely no perceived benefit.

More to the point, the power supply is not the cause of the problem Gray_Area described in the OP. It just isn't. The replacement may indirectly solve the problem, if the problem is a faulty PATA to SATA power adapter, by eliminating the need for the power adapter. But that's an absurdly expensive alternative to replacing a $3 adapter. We have no reason to think that this power supply has ever caused Gray_Area a lick of trouble, and he's obviously had this computer for ages (considering that it has a power supply in it that has no SATA power connectors). A computer that old generally doesn't need a >250 watt power supply, and Gray_Area's demonstrably did not. He simply wasted a bunch of money on a power supply that is capable of providing substantially more power than his computer draws. What's the point?

And to make matters worse, if the problem is a faulty connector on the hard drive rather than a faulty PATA to SATA power adapter, the new power supply won't even fix the problem.

[lilshawn]

a 250 watt power supply hasn't been an option for purchase for quite some time now. most manufaturers have moved to 500 and larger for their full sizes supplies. therefore we can determine

a:) the supply is several years old. stuff don't last like it used to.

b:) with 3 harddrives, the main board, and cd rom drive, is loaded probably to the maximum.

c:) caps are shot in it.

given A + B = C, replace the power supply.

harddrives should have a 3 year warranty from the manufacturer. send it in and they will give you a new one. If it's no longer under warranty, you've likely proved (A). replace the supply, if the harddrive still flakes out then send it in and receive a spanking new one. 2 birds with one stone.

i sent in a 120gb drive that was about a month away from expiration, Western Digital sent me a 350gb re-certified hd since that was the smallest they had. aint even mad.

[ark_ader]

I wouldn't bother arguing with Shmokes, due to his inability to grasp the concept of being told and knowing when to quit.  I do feel sorry for him though, and do try and give him credit for something he outputs. He might even be a big yahoo     in the courtroom (if he ever gets a chance get in there) but in an internet forum he just doesn't have the ability to control himself.  It is like dealing with an angry old man.

He must have his good days and bad days like we all do I guess.  Personally I would go nuts if I was stuck in the house playing on the Nintendoh all day.  They are hiring here and he has all the best qualities for the job.

So just agree with him, and humour him the best you can.  Be warned it is an uphill climb.   

I was trying to find a 75W or a 150W AT PSU just to get additional power for a Tower build.  They are becoming very hard to find. 

A 250 ATX for a Bartop maybe, but for a home PC I would ditch it.  400W PSUs are so cheap and quiet.

[lilshawn]

such is the internet 

I once explained a videogame glitch by how a game does collision detection and this was the cause of the glitch and this fool basically said my explanation was all ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- that's not how it is, and you shouldn't listen to it bla bla bla.

I'm like what the hell are you talking about Mr. expert, but if you know, then by all means.

He says, you think your so damn smart and you're feeding these people lies to make them think you're smart but your really not and this is all ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- rabble rabble ---smurfette--- ---smurfette---...

So I'm like okay actually from what I'm seeing the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- is comments from your side. I'm also not seeing this absolutely correct information nugget you have stored in your head.

for 5 DAYS ... no reply

Yeah...that's what I thought.

/soapbox


Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt I suppose.

Don't forget, peoples attitudes don't translate well with typed information...it's all how you read it in your head. If you read it like a ---smurfette--- you sound like a ---smurfette---, you read the same thing in a pleasant tone, it's pleasant . 

[ark_ader]

such is the internet 

I once explained a videogame glitch by how a game does collision detection and this was the cause of the glitch and this fool basically said my explanation was all ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- that's not how it is, and you shouldn't listen to it bla bla bla.

I'm like what the hell are you talking about Mr. expert, but if you know, then by all means.

He says, you think your so damn smart and you're feeding these people lies to make them think you're smart but your really not and this is all ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- rabble rabble ---smurfette--- ---smurfette---...

So I'm like okay actually from what I'm seeing the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- is comments from your side. I'm also not seeing this absolutely correct information nugget you have stored in your head.

for 5 DAYS ... no reply

Yeah...that's what I thought.

/soapbox


Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt I suppose.

Don't forget, peoples attitudes don't translate well with typed information...it's all how you read it in your head. If you read it like a ---smurfette--- you sound like a ---smurfette---, you read the same thing in a pleasant tone, it's pleasant . 

Hope it wasn't driverman.....

I agree with you 100% but Shmokes has been trying to get up my a-hole for nearly 4 years.  I'm all for playful banter, but the guy cannot differentiate banter and formal discussion.

Maybe I should ask Saint to add some "adult discussion warning flags" in the smilies. 

[shmokes]

a 250 watt power supply hasn't been an option for purchase for quite some time now. most manufaturers have moved to 500 and larger for their full sizes supplies. therefore we can determine

a:) the supply is several years old. stuff don't last like it used to.

b:) with 3 harddrives, the main board, and cd rom drive, is loaded probably to the maximum.

c:) caps are shot in it.

given A + B = C, replace the power supply.

You forgot D:) his power supply works fine. A faulty power supply cannot, PHYSICALLY CANNOT cause the problem described. Even if A), B), and C) in your hypothetical all turned out to be true, even if he truly should just get a power supply for . . . ---smurfing--- . . . the fun of it, cos everyone with 250 watt supplies should just automatically go out and ---smurfing--- replace them even if the power supply has never caused any problem whatsoever (like, for example, this case) . . . the power supply could not cause the problem described in the OP. It's physically ---smurfing--- impossible. Not unlikely . . . IMPOSSIBLE. So, while y'all have a little circle jerk about what an unreasonable ---uvula--- I am, how about actually addressing how I am wrong. I mean, I give you some slack lilshawn, cos you're apparently just some guy who likes computers. But this is supposedly Ark's profession. He has no idea how to do his own job.

[Yenome]

im curious to the specs of the rest of the pc. it might not even require a high wattage. their is laptops more powerful than the systems people use in their cabs. and they only use a 90w power supply. i still say its the adapter i got two of em here.

its the power adapter. replace it and i bet the issue will go way. if it dont its the HD it self, replace it. those are the only steps you need to do those are the only ones required to get your answer. dont know if you got it fixed or not yet but there it is. i have no certs or degree. just real world experience from the years of doing computer repair. anyone else remember BBS and baud modems haha

[Drnick]

As another computer tech in the house I am with the "replace the pata/sata convertor club"  and as for BBS and Baud, oh god I remember that.  The very first time I dialled into another computer with my wonderfully powerful 14.4k. At least the other end didn't ask me if I wanted to play a game.

[Yenome]

rofl i remember when my friend got a 14.4 we was like omg its sooo fast. course his father ran a big BBS in the southeast so we could sit at the console if we wanted.

[ark_ader]

a 250 watt power supply hasn't been an option for purchase for quite some time now. most manufaturers have moved to 500 and larger for their full sizes supplies. therefore we can determine

a:) the supply is several years old. stuff don't last like it used to.

b:) with 3 harddrives, the main board, and cd rom drive, is loaded probably to the maximum.

c:) caps are shot in it.

given A + B = C, replace the power supply.

You forgot D:) his power supply works fine. A faulty power supply cannot, PHYSICALLY CANNOT cause the problem described. Even if A), B), and C) in your hypothetical all turned out to be true, even if he truly should just get a power supply for . . . ---smurfing--- . . . the fun of it, cos everyone with 250 watt supplies should just automatically go out and ---smurfing--- replace them even if the power supply has never caused any problem whatsoever (like, for example, this case) . . . the power supply could not cause the problem described in the OP. It's physically ---smurfing--- impossible. Not unlikely . . . IMPOSSIBLE. So, while y'all have a little circle jerk about what an unreasonable ---uvula--- I am, how about actually addressing how I am wrong. I mean, I give you some slack lilshawn, cos you're apparently just some guy who likes computers. But this is supposedly Ark's profession. He has no idea how to do his own job.

Yes you are right, don't worry you are the best computer/lawyer/politician/doctor/child psychologist/rocket scientist/laureate on the planet.  Now please do not waste any more of your precious time dealing with us mere plebs.

Thank you for your time.   

[kahlid74]

If the draw for the entire system at the time of power up including the HDD in question is more than the PSU can handle, it's possible that the line providing power to said HDD was given lower than tolerable draw preventing the HDD in question for actually spinning up.  Once all other systems cold booted to lower draw, the power cable can be re-jostled and give the questionable HDD a jump start.

While I have witnessed the above before it is very rare and I feel that while replacing the PSU was a good choice (250 is likely an old/crappy PSU) the HDD should be further examined as the culprit.  Did you run any diagnostics against said HDD?  Did you update the firmware on the HDD?

[lilshawn]

both seagate and maxtor have drive diagnostic utillities on their websites.

http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=612&sid=3&lang=en

http://www.seagate.com/support/internal-hard-drives/consumer-electronics/ld25-series/seatools-win-master/

[RandyT]

If the draw for the entire system at the time of power up including the HDD in question is more than the PSU can handle, it's possible that the line providing power to said HDD was given lower than tolerable draw preventing the HDD in question for actually spinning up.  Once all other systems cold booted to lower draw, the power cable can be re-jostled and give the questionable HDD a jump start.

What he said.  It's also not beyond the realm of possibility that a PS operating right on the edge, or marginally faulty, would drop the voltage when powered peripherals were attached/detached, possibly causing the drive to not get the voltage it requires.  Not a very common issue, but still something to consider.

There's a simple way to see if this is the issue, though.  Stick the drive in a different system (external enclosure, etc...) for a while and see if it acts up.  Regardless of the issue, however, back up important files on the drive and don't wait.  If the drive is on the way out, it has been very kind in giving you a warning.

[shmokes]

 It's also not beyond the realm of possibility that a PS operating right on the edge, or marginally faulty, would drop the voltage when powered peripherals were attached/detached, possibly causing the drive to not get the voltage it requires. 

Yes, this is perfectly possible. But it isn't what's happening. If the OP merely said that sometimes the drive spins up and other times the OS can't find the drive, I'd be all about fingering the power supply as the likely culprit. But jostling the cable would not cause the hard drive to suddenly spin up if that were the case. Grey-Area said that he can spin up the drive by jostling the wires, as like a reliable fix. Physically shaking wires does not affect the amount of electricity flowing through them. The problem described in the OP is clearly a short. And the short is not in the power supply because he tried multiple wires. It's the adapter or the hard drive.

What kahlid74 said here is not true. I know he said he's witnessed it, but I don't think he actually saw what he thinks he saw.

Once all other systems cold booted to lower draw, the power cable can be re-jostled and give the questionable HDD a jump start.

[Gray_Area]

What the ---fudgesicle--- happened?

Anyways. I got the Corsair. It doesn't have a plug for a socket on my mobo, like pictured below: 12v ATX - which runs the CPU. ........................        I guess I'm hosed, huh?

[lilshawn]

wait what?!

how the hell did you get a power supply without an ATX12 plug on it? are you shopping at goodwill?!  i can't even... i don't even...

well chop off the atx12 plug off your old one and wire it up to the new one i guess 

yellow is 12 volts and black is ground. usually only high end power supplies have a seperate rail for the 12 volt lines used on the mobo. otherwise they all run to the same place.

how the hell... 

is this some sort of trick or test or?

[MonMotha]

If you bought a new one, it probably has the newer style 8 pin plug for 12V.  They usually are separable so you can plug into the older 4 pin motherboards.

If you really did end up with a power supply without the ATX12V plug...um, stop buying 12 year old (no joke, that's the last time I had a mobo that didn't have that power requirement) hardware.