Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke

[Gray_Area]

While there are a lot 2D (and I guess some 3D) games on phones and such, the fundamental intent since 3D games have emerged has been on simulating reality.

Well, fine. Except that here we are twenty years later and nothing remarkable has happened. And it won't until there is a completely immersive experience.

Until then, it's just a lot of gadding about. And why I will be playing retro for some time.

[SithMaster]

Something that you might want to look forward to is a VR headset id software's john carmack is working with.  I believe the headset is opensource diy and he's working on getting a lower budget ($500) pair working with doom 3.

Article here virtual boy that won't break the neck for those interested.

[Samstag]

Ok we'll let you know when they're able to beam games directly into your skull.

While we're waiting I'll be playing both retro games and the cool new stuff they keep coming up with.

[AtomSmasher]

Does that mean you only watch movies made 50 or more years ago since they don't provide much more of an immersive experience today?  (pretty much on par with games, the newer ones have better visuals, audio, and some utilize 3D glasses).  And what about books? They haven't been improved in eons?

I'm with Samstag, I'm enjoying games both new and old games.

[Gray_Area]

Does that mean you only watch movies made 50 or more years ago since they don't provide much more of an immersive experience today?  (pretty much on par with games, the newer ones have better visuals, audio, and some utilize 3D glasses).  And what about books? They haven't been improved in eons?

Go back and watch some quality movies from the 70s and 80s on something fairly HD or better, many of them you may not know of (I didn't until recently), and you'll see how good they were both in audio and video.

I don't care for 3D movies. And I don't watch many new movies, because there's not much new in the stories. I'm not reading anything lately for the same reason.

[hypernova]

They just added plots and such...who needs that when I can make Mario leap and clear barrels over and over.  And climb ladders.

Not knocking the classics.  Love 'em, too.  They all have a place in my heart.

[ark_ader]

Why is there no decent games on Android except retro?

[Samstag]

Go back and watch some quality movies from the 70s and 80s on something fairly HD or better, many of them you may not know of (I didn't until recently), and you'll see how good they were both in audio and video.

Why are you wasting your time with movies from the 70s and 80s when they didn't add any significant improvements over the "talkies" of the 30s?  I mean, sure, there's color and better actors, scripts, camera work, etc, but it's all just more of the same.

[SithMaster]

I'm not an autistic shut in, so maybe Gray can enlighten us to the point of this thread? 

If life sucks so bad, have you contemplated suicide?

Perhaps the intent was to suggest that all the next gen marketing nonsense doesn't really matter and until something amazing comes along (that ps2 commercial with the ps9 maybe) it will just continue to be marketing nonsense.  To be fair many games nowadays don't make me want to spend $60 day one anymore.  Yeah yeah never pay retail for a game blah blah.  That being said Colonial Marines was something I'd have spent the full price on but now I'll wait for the price drop just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

[Xiaou2]

Is Immersive 3d Really the best thing that can happen for games?

 If they realease another 2d Mario in 5yrs from now.. I guarantee it will still sell well, and that people may enjoy it more than any virtual reality game.

 Graphics get more and more realistic, but eventually, people will be bored with realism... and seek the Artistic.  Such as Cartoon, Vector, Abstract, Paint/Multimedia, Claymation, etc.  Interpretive works.

 Real can be boring.  Thats why many games, like Outrun, Spyhunter, Supersprint... chuck out all the real world driving physics, pump up the speed and challenge, and just rock it with pure Fun-Factor.

But also, gameplay wise, its very difficult to make a challenging virtual environmental game.  A typical person does not have enough feedback yet: Full panoramic stereoscopic 3d head gear w/ tracking, hi-def full-height-level surround sound, and a giant trackball to run around inside... or a rolling mat of sorts that keeps you centered no matter how you move.

 As such, the player is limited in expression, and the game needs to be programmed so that even the least coordinated players, with the worst possible controllers, can play it through just fine.

 And because there are so many poorly skilled players out there that enjoy a very easy romp through pretty graphics... it makes things even worse.  The companies just keep cranking out the same old hat, for 20+ yrs in a row.  Adding pretty much nothing new to the formula.

 

don't make me want to spend $60 day one anymore.

 That and the fact that once you hit a certain age and responsibility level.. many people just cant afford the new-game collecting hobby.  We also have many other areas in life, that require our hard earned, and not so easy to come by these days,  Cash.

just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.

 I wont buy a game until Ive played it at least for a little while, to see if its even worth it.  Very few games have good enough gameplay balance and challenge, to make me even consider a purchase.

[SithMaster]

just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.

 I wont buy a game until Ive played it at least for a little while, to see if its even worth it.  Very few games have good enough gameplay balance and challenge, to make me even consider a purchase.


[/quote]

I can't argue with that when I'm just being petty about it.  They do have to deal with Fox on this and probably shifted staff over for another big project that coming out sooner.

As far as immersion peripherals goes I really hope it doesn't come to that.  It would just become too costly for what you'd probably get out of it though I might be for the vr headset with surround sound since that seems equivalent to getting a receiver.  Even now companies need to deal with HD content and one could argue that helped give rise to the whole triple A gaming nonsense so the added cost will just be shifted to the consumer and any potential project that isn't considered cost effective by the big companies won't see daylight.

[AtomSmasher]

just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.

I don't disagree with any of your points, it's just that 3 years from the original expected release date is a long time to delay a game

[shmokes]

the fundamental intent since 3D games have emerged has been on simulating reality.

I think this is nonsense. How does God of War simulate reality? How does Legend of Zelda? 2D games, with their bipedal (or quadripedal) characters and their gravity, etc., have always striven, to exactly the same extent, to simulate reality. Which is to say that we naturally create videogames that players can understand intuitively. Real life isn't pixelated. Does that mean that the move from the Atari to the NES was an attempt to simulate reality? I mean, actually sort of, but not in any way that is meaningful. The same goes for a system that can do 3D. How is Rez any more realistic than Sim City? How is Super Mario Galaxy any more realistic than Super Mario World, aside from the Z axis, of course? The point isn't to simulate reality. That's not the point at all. The point is to create fun experiences, just like it has always been. And there is no shortage of new extraordinary experiences to be had on new consoles--experiences that weren't possible on previous consoles. If you want to arbitrarily cut yourself off from them, that's find. But staking a claim to some kind of moral or intellectual high ground is absurd.

I don't watch many new movies, because there's not much new in the stories. I'm not reading anything lately for the same reason.

You're not reading anything for the same reason? Wtf does that mean, you've read every old book worth reading? I guess you've exhausted Tolstoy and Dumas. There's no Twain or Steinbeck or Hemingway you haven't read? Nothing by Dickens or Austen has escaped your extraordinarily well-read eyes? Samuel Butler? Dostoyevsky? Defoe? Salinger? Heller? Orwell? Joyce? Voltaire? Shakespeare? Fitzgerald? Wilde? Faulkner? Hugo? Christie? Stevenson? Thoreau? Wells? And, like you say, god knows nothing worthwhile is being written today. It's not like we have Kurt Vonnegut and John Irving and Michael Chabon and Susan Clarke and David Foster Wallace and Edward Abbey and Douglas Adams and H.F. Saint and Mark Haddon and David Mitchell and Tom Robbins and Steven King and Junot Diaz and Chuck Palahniuk and Philip Roth and  . . . and so on.

Seriously, you've stopped reading altogether because there are no books left that are up to your standards? LOL. I guess I'm just not as impressive a person as you. For me, I'll just go on wallowing in the muck. No matter how much I read, my to-read list has always grown, and surely will always grow, faster than my have-read list. Same goes for movies, and there's no point even arguing that the quality of television is not leaps and bounds better than it's ever been before.

edit: p.s. I know that there are a couple of corpses on my list of modern authors.

[loz1962]

A fully  interactive gamers paradise was built on " The Gadget Show " in the UK. It has a 360 projection, surround sound, Walking on game pad for movement and feed back Via paintball gun, Watch the video...
Ultimate Battlefield 3 Simulator - Build & Test (Full Video) - The Gadget Show

Just waiting for one to be installed near me

[Gray_Area]

Perhaps the intent was to suggest that all the next gen marketing nonsense doesn't really matter and until something amazing comes along...it will just continue to be marketing nonsense. 

This.


@shmokes: many things have been written, and well. Some of it I've read, a lot of it I've never wanted to read. There might be a few things out there I'd like to read, but I'd have to look a little for them.

[shmokes]

Books and movies aside (though I highly recommend Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke), I think you're not giving the newer systems a fair shake. Increased processor power, graphics power, audio and storage have enabled experiences that go so SO much further than make games look and sound superficially prettier or more realistic. I mean, first, making something look and sound more realistic isn't for nothing. More than anything else, what made Star Wars so amazing in 1977 or whatever was the amazing special effects. They have a substantial impact on immersion.

But even if you don't place any stock in that, it doesn't begin to end there. The processors can now calculate extraordinarily complex physics models, making all kinds of cool things possible, like destructible environments. Lighting engines calculate shadows which are used in gameplay for stealth and atmosphere. Non-player-characters and enemies can behave in challenging and unpredictable ways thanks to complex AI routines. High resolution models screens and 3d models allows for the rendering of individual limbs, causing enemies to react differently depending on, e.g., whether they were shot in the hand or in the face. Open world games are . . . possible. Grand Theft Auto isn't everyone's cup of tea, but my god, I don't know how many hours (A LOT) I've spent just driving around those cities with no particular purpose in mind--just driving around, finding new places, hopping fences, exploring. Racing games can employ complex physics models. Many MANY enemies can be moving onscreen simultaneously without causing the whole system to choke. Surround sound can be utilized for both immersion and to directly enhance gameplay. Sports games are light years better than ever, whether you're talking about realistic like Madden or exaggerated like Blitz. And, of course, narrative has made huge strides as well.

I honestly think there's just not that much substance to your complaints. There's phenomenal work being done right now on the new systems. And I haven't even touched upon the renaissance in indy game development that's going on right now. World of Goo. Amnesia. Sword and Sworcery. Braid. Journey. Flower. Scott Pilgrim. Cave Story. I mean, it doesn't matter what kind of games you like (unless you're a point-and-click adventure fan, of course) there's just no shortage of phenomenal choices at your fingertips right now on the new systems.

[SNAAKE]

video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games. take resident evil for example. those games used to be fun. re5 wasnt even a survival horror. it was more like "here are lots of guns and ammo..go kill stuff"

how did fighting games turn into crapfest like sfxtekken? it has 'pay to win' gem and 'auto block' gems. basically retarded kids online would hold forward and do whatever and abuse the auto block.

then I saw a 'silent hill multiplayer'. fail so epic its almost a win..

[shmokes]

Pfft . . . when has this ever not been the case? At what point in our history was the videogame market not filled with cookie cutter garbage? It's silly. And you talk about the Resident Evil franchise being garbage now (a comical assertion since the original Resident Evil couldn't be a bigger rip off cookie cutter of Alone in the Dark) when the high point of the entire series was Resident Evil 4. That was just one generation ago.

I mean, I suppose there is something to what you're saying. Major videogame budgets are so big now that publishers are probably more conservative now than ever before . . . leading to more sequels and fewer new IPs. But I already talked about the blossoming of the Indy games market this (and XBLA/PSN) has come from this. Plus, even the big publishers are giving us great new IPs pretty regularly. Look at Red Dead, L.A. Noir, Bioshock (which is a sequel, but may as well be a new IP), Dead Space, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, The Last of Us, and here's a list of mostly upcoming new IP with a lot of potential.

If you ask me, this is probably more about kids playing on your lawn than anything else. 

[Samstag]

video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games. take resident evil for example. those games used to be fun. re5 wasnt even a survival horror. it was more like "here are lots of guns and ammo..go kill stuff"

how did fighting games turn into crapfest like sfxtekken? it has 'pay to win' gem and 'auto block' gems. basically retarded kids online would hold forward and do whatever and abuse the auto block.

then I saw a 'silent hill multiplayer'. fail so epic its almost a win..

The reason you're not seeing innovation is you're stuck in a stagnant genre.  Try looking outside of fighting and survival horror and you'll find a lot of cool new ideas.

While your old favorite developers are polishing up 90's gameplay there are a lot of others pushing new boundaries.

[Gray_Area]

I remember in the late 80s/early 90s yearning for more sci-fi/comic book movies to be done. There wasn't the cultural demand, but also some things weren't that possible. I feel differently now. I find that stuff trite. Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

Game-wise....well, that's just it, it shouldn't be a game. It should be like a dream, where you might know it's not 'real', but it's real. Actually, you can do this every night when you sleep. Oh, but you can play retro games in your dreams. Sometimes I do.

[shmokes]

Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

I'm not huge on fantasy, but again, check out Jonathan Strange. It's the opposite of trite. In fact, it's written very much like a scholarly work on the history of English magic, extensive fictional footnotes and all. I'm not big on fantasy, either. Aside from Tolkien and J.K. Rowling and the one Discworld book I read, I think I've hated every fantasy book I've read. That includes the garbage Game of Thrones series (HBO treatment is pretty good, though). But Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is a masterpiece.

[paigeoliver]

Get OFF the console and start looking on steam.

It has everything from the $60 first day titles everyone is complaining about, right down to 80s style games that even have 80s style graphics. I have around 500 games on my steam account and plenty of them veer far away from the idea of 3d reality simulation.

Some specifically retro standouts on my own personal account include.

Terraria (the best nes game that never was).
Eversion (what if Mario was scary).
Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.
Puzzle Kingdoms. Has a real gameboy/snes feel.

Some other titles I have that have seen a lot of play, but that are not particularly retro.
Left 4 Dead 1 & 2. 3d multiplayer zombie survival
Team Fortress 2. Great multiplayer action
Magic and Magic 2012; That expensive card game without having to buy the cards.
Torchlight: Diablo, but way better.
Borderlands: Cross between diablo and a FPS.
Orcs must Die: Incredible single player first person defense title with a dragon's lair feel.
Defense Grid. The defining title of the tower defense genre.
Mafia II. Similar to Grand Theft Auto, but less free roaming and far more polished.
Burnout Paradise. Great free roaming driving title.
Half Life series. I have all of these. They are incredible.
Juiced 2. Seems to be a game based on the fictional underground streetracing scene as pictured in the movies.
Civilization 4. Wonderful strategy game and Leonard Nimoy narrates!
Titan Quest. A better Diablo.
Poker Night at the Inventory. A graphical poker game, played against characters from the gaming world.

And, I only slogged through the first 60 or 70 games on my account writing this. There is so much more.

[Gray_Area]

Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

I'm not huge on fantasy, but again, check out Jonathan Strange. It's the opposite of trite. In fact, it's written very much like a scholarly work on the history of English magic, extensive fictional footnotes and all. I'm not big on fantasy, either. Aside from Tolkien and J.K. Rowling and the one Discworld book I read, I think I've hated every fantasy book I've read. That includes the garbage Game of Thrones series (HBO treatment is pretty good, though). But Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is a masterpiece.

I'll look into it. I have a very particular palette, and just won't do anything in a particular area if there's nothing tasty. I won't play games on anything less than arcade controls, and even then if they're aren't working well (at least working well for me), I won't play games.

Also, I forgot to mention, a recent movie I liked a lot was Up in the Air. The Men who stare at Goats was great fun. Even Zombie Land was pretty good, though I liked the Billy Murray part most.

[Blanka]

I do not agree. For basic eye-hand control, not much happened, but there are some things that do deliver based on what is possible today.

2003-2004 some huge gaming stuff happened.

It'll probably make you laugh though.

Pivotal moment 1:
The introduction of Katamari Damacy.
This was the ultimate clash of pure art, the greatest game music ever, and totally dumb fun gaming. It even resulted in many weird theme parties. It could not have happened before. It is a top-10 ever gaming experience.

Pivotal moment 2:
Second Life:
Most of us still remember the hype and the deception of the "game" in the early years. But it is still going strong, be it in a rather weird niche. But it changed gaming for the good, and again, is totally a great reflection of what is possible with current tech. Even Pac-Man has a nice version in Second-Life. You can be trapped and turned into a Pac-Man machine, and unless someone puts coins in your slot, you're vision is through endless attraction screens with burned in images. It is the most extravagant showcase of weird gaming and creativity ever made, not by a single company, but by its million users. It is gaming in its purest form: let yourself carry away in any fantasy you like.

[crandall]

Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.

Plants vs. Zombie really rocks - that's a nice game. Osmos sounds interesting - I've got to try that one out for sure but Eufloria is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on flowers and that is so inspiring to me because for me flowers are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get flowers delivered by serenata.

[danny_galaga]

Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.

Plants vs. Zombie really rocks - that's a nice game. Osmos sounds interesting - I've got to try that one out for sure but Eufloria is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on flowers and that is so inspiring to me because for me flowers are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get flowers delivered by serenata.

This is some awesome spam, well done. 

Is your marketing company hiring?  Shoot me a PM.

+1. You don't get enough personally delivered spam nowadays. It's all bot driven...

[404]

I dont have a problem with current gen games, fps, MMO etc. I think some people need to keep in mind that during the arcade and console boom era's of the 80's and 90's, there were just as many copycat games as there are today. How many run and jump platformer games can you count back in those times? Tons I'm sure.

I do have a personal problem with some of these so called "Indy developers". Guys that are blatantly doing nothing more than ripping off classic games and selling them to make a quick buck off of the retro fad that currently exists. Just saw a game the other day that was nothing more than a clear ripoff of castlevania. I remember homebrew guys doing the same thing years ago and never asking for a penny. I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

[Well Fed Games]

I do have a personal problem with some of these so called "Indy developers". Guys that are blatantly doing nothing more than ripping off classic games and selling them to make a quick buck off of the retro fad that currently exists. Just saw a game the other day that was nothing more than a clear ripoff of castlevania.

Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

[shponglefan]

video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games.

This has been the case since the 1980's.  They'll be something innovative, followed by a ton of copy-cats.  The industry crashed about 30 years ago because of this.

However, the crap tends to be forgotten and the good stuff stays remembered.  Which is why it's easy to put on rose-coloured glasses to remember days gone by...

[shponglefan]

Game-wise....well, that's just it, it shouldn't be a game. It should be like a dream, where you might know it's not 'real', but it's real. Actually, you can do this every night when you sleep. Oh, but you can play retro games in your dreams. Sometimes I do.

Sounds to me like you're less about the video games and more about the recreational narcotics. 

[404]

Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:

I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.

[Vigo]

Dr. mario is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on Drugs and that is so inspiring to me because for me Drugs are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get .

Good grief, that is odd spam. I had to fix it for you, just to make it a more believable statement. 

[Well Fed Games]

Ah. Where you see a rip off I see a homage or tribute. To me a rip-off is more like what gets talked about here: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/2/22/2810409/cloning-wars-vlambeer-vs-gamenauts, a game specifically made to syphon potential customers from the original (such as the bootleg pacman clones of yore). I think most indie games add more than you realize to the formula.

I love the Katamari Damacy(s) of the world, but sometimes games are more of an evolution or revisit than an all new idea, same as in movies, music, etc. Personally, I loved Shadow Complex on XBLA (and pretty much everyone else did too) even though it took every possible cue from Super Metriod.

Not trying to argue, but I think there is a lot more innovation in the indie realm than there has been for a long time in the game industry as a whole, thanks to accessible tools and internet distribution.

Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:

I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.

[404]

Ah. Where you see a rip off I see a homage or tribute. To me a rip-off is more like what gets talked about here: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/2/22/2810409/cloning-wars-vlambeer-vs-gamenauts, a game specifically made to syphon potential customers from the original (such as the bootleg pacman clones of yore). I think most indie games add more than you realize to the formula.

I love the Katamari Damacy(s) of the world, but sometimes games are more of an evolution or revisit than an all new idea, same as in movies, music, etc. Personally, I loved Shadow Complex on XBLA (and pretty much everyone else did too) even though it took every possible cue from Super Metriod.

Not trying to argue, but I think there is a lot more innovation in the indie realm than there has been for a long time in the game industry as a whole, thanks to accessible tools and internet distribution.

this is where me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, there are penty of free homebrew games that pay homage to classic games nearly all of them are free and readily available. This has been going on for years and while some companies are bothered by it, some others are flattered, as they should be. However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors. Not to mention there is almost no excuse to play the original games. There are tons of oldschool titles sold on compilation discs, psn, xbox live, wii channel etc.

[shponglefan]

However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors.

As much as that may suck, the alternative (protection of game mechanics) is far worse.  The software industry already has to deal with plenty of litigation over patents.  If game mechanics became protected, then the number of lawsuits in the games industry would skyrocket.  You'd have a major stifling effect on the industry, which would only be a bad thing.

[danny_galaga]

Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:

I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.

 

Free market. They aren't ripping off code, are they? How many 'rip offs' of Coke are there? You are free to pick the one you want...

[shmokes]

Free market. They aren't ripping off code, are they?

Why is 'free market' not an equally acceptable answer to ripping off code?

[Xiaou2]

this is where me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, there are penty of free homebrew games that pay homage to classic games nearly all of them are free and readily available. This has been going on for years and while some companies are bothered by it, some others are flattered, as they should be. However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors. Not to mention there is almost no excuse to play the original games. There are tons of oldschool titles sold on compilation discs, psn, xbox live, wii channel etc.

Lets say you want to make a Marble Madness Clone...  But, you realize you cant do it for free, cause you need to pay all kinds of talent to actually finish the project.  Sadly, most people, when faced with the Reality of all the hard work that goes into a game, disappear quickly.

 You call Midway up... And they tell you that they wont allow you to purchase the rights.  They would program it themselves IF they thought the idea was good... BUT, they wont ever remake MM cause its a puzzle game, and puzzle games dont sell well.

 Now what?

 I can understand your viewpoint, and in certain cases, I agree.  But in a case like this, and many other cases... I disagree.

 Many of these games have already made their money ages ago.   And if the company wanted to make a new version, they are well and free to do so... and would probably trounce all over your efforts, due to the manpower, experience, and talent, behind them.

 The Classic download packs are a joke.  They probably cost more to set up & run than any company ever makes on them.  And worse yet, they are a rip-off... offering almost nothing extra to the person buying them, AND, having substandard controls to boot.

 Corporate re-issue game packs have always been a rip off.  Its only recently that emulation has improved things, merely from the fact that theres no need to reprogram a game from scratch (in most cases).

 
And as said... Almost everything you see is a derivative and or copy of something from the past. 

 Personally, I cant see why anyone would want to make an Identical game.  I always want to take what was, and Add something to the mix.  Graphics are just a shell, but good gameplay is key.

[404]

Lets say you want to make a Marble Madness Clone...  But, you realize you cant do it for free, cause you need to pay all kinds of talent to actually finish the project.  Sadly, most people, when faced with the Reality of all the hard work that goes into a game, disappear quickly.

If you aren't talented enough to make the game then who's fault is it?

You call Midway up... And they tell you that they wont allow you to purchase the rights.  They would program it themselves IF they thought the idea was good... BUT, they wont ever remake MM cause its a puzzle game, and puzzle games dont sell well.

Can you really blame them for protecting their IP?

 Many of these games have already made their money ages ago.   And if the company wanted to make a new version, they are well and free to do so... and would probably trounce all over your efforts, due to the manpower, experience, and talent, behind them.

The Classic download packs are a joke.  They probably cost more to set up & run than any company ever makes on them.  And worse yet, they are a rip-off... offering almost nothing extra to the person buying them, AND, having substandard controls to boot.

 Corporate re-issue game packs have always been a rip off.  Its only recently that emulation has improved things, merely from the fact that theres no need to reprogram a game from scratch (in most cases).

I'm not here to debate how good the game packs are. There are plenty of other ways to get the games you want.

Personally, I cant see why anyone would want to make an Identical game.  I always want to take what was, and Add something to the mix.  Graphics are just a shell, but good gameplay is key.

Agree 100%

As i mentioned before, there are tons of platform games over the decades that take aspects from other platform titles and so fourth. I have zero problem with that. I have a problem with some of these guys that want to make a quick buck creating an "indy" title completely based off of another franchise with zero originality whatsoever.

[Xiaou2]

As i mentioned before, there are tons of platform games over the decades that take aspects from other platform titles and so fourth. I have zero problem with that. I have a problem with some of these guys that want to make a quick buck creating an "indy" title completely based off of another franchise with zero originality whatsoever.

 What about all those FPS games they have made in the last 20yrs?   The gameplay mechanics are pretty much identical.  The only thing that changes, are layouts, graphics, sounds, and story.   Which is pretty much the same as the scenario as the Indie situation you speak of...

 Once you start thinking about chopping up games by mechanics however.. it could ruin the entire creative industry.  As only a company with millions of dollars behind it could afford the lawyers to actually produce anything without a lawsuit, as well as need for legal standings on every move you made, and licensing that big companies will never give out to the little guys.

 

Can you really blame them for protecting their IP?

 If they never intend to USE that IP, then whats the use protecting it?  Why not allow others the use of it, and share in the profits?   Its pathetic man. Really pathetic.  A corporation does not care about the artistry and preservation.  They would let a game Rot.. merely cause its a business, and nothing else.  Luckily we have things like Mame, else the past would be lost forever.   When we talk about things like this... we realize, that its not a Black and White matter at all.  Legality isnt always the right thing.

If you aren't talented enough to make the game then who's fault is it?

 Making a game relies on Multiple disciplines.  Its very rare that there are people out there that can: Program, Create sounds, Compose Music,  Render in 3D, Draw in 2d, and make excellent challenging levels.   To make a great game, you need many excellent players in your band.   Not many band members are going to work for free, let along work for free making a free game.  Especially if they are Told what to do, rather than getting a say in it. And frankly put, thats when problems occur.  People like programmers want to change vital gameplay elements... and they simply dont understand how bad that can ruin a game.  But unless you have the money to keep them doing it the Right way... then you will end up with a big mess.

There are plenty of other ways to get the games you want.

Yeah, LUCKILY not everyone has a stick up their butts, and doesnt think in pure black and white...