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Author Topic: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke  (Read 14794 times)

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Gray_Area

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Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« on: June 10, 2012, 07:49:58 pm »
While there are a lot 2D (and I guess some 3D) games on phones and such, the fundamental intent since 3D games have emerged has been on simulating reality.

Well, fine. Except that here we are twenty years later and nothing remarkable has happened. And it won't until there is a completely immersive experience.

Until then, it's just a lot of gadding about. And why I will be playing retro for some time.
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SithMaster

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 08:00:05 pm »
Something that you might want to look forward to is a VR headset id software's john carmack is working with.  I believe the headset is opensource diy and he's working on getting a lower budget ($500) pair working with doom 3.

Article here virtual boy that won't break the neck for those interested.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 08:00:25 pm »
Ok we'll let you know when they're able to beam games directly into your skull.

While we're waiting I'll be playing both retro games and the cool new stuff they keep coming up with.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 08:36:00 pm »
Does that mean you only watch movies made 50 or more years ago since they don't provide much more of an immersive experience today?  (pretty much on par with games, the newer ones have better visuals, audio, and some utilize 3D glasses).  And what about books? They haven't been improved in eons?

I'm with Samstag, I'm enjoying games both new and old games.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15:38 pm »
Does that mean you only watch movies made 50 or more years ago since they don't provide much more of an immersive experience today?  (pretty much on par with games, the newer ones have better visuals, audio, and some utilize 3D glasses).  And what about books? They haven't been improved in eons?

Go back and watch some quality movies from the 70s and 80s on something fairly HD or better, many of them you may not know of (I didn't until recently), and you'll see how good they were both in audio and video.

I don't care for 3D movies. And I don't watch many new movies, because there's not much new in the stories. I'm not reading anything lately for the same reason.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 05:35:38 pm »
They just added plots and such...who needs that when I can make Mario leap and clear barrels over and over.  And climb ladders.

Not knocking the classics.  Love 'em, too.  They all have a place in my heart.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 06:33:45 pm »
Why is there no decent games on Android except retro?
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 07:23:01 pm »
Go back and watch some quality movies from the 70s and 80s on something fairly HD or better, many of them you may not know of (I didn't until recently), and you'll see how good they were both in audio and video.

Why are you wasting your time with movies from the 70s and 80s when they didn't add any significant improvements over the "talkies" of the 30s?  I mean, sure, there's color and better actors, scripts, camera work, etc, but it's all just more of the same.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 07:59:58 pm »
I'm not an autistic shut in, so maybe Gray can enlighten us to the point of this thread? 

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Perhaps the intent was to suggest that all the next gen marketing nonsense doesn't really matter and until something amazing comes along (that ps2 commercial with the ps9 maybe) it will just continue to be marketing nonsense.  To be fair many games nowadays don't make me want to spend $60 day one anymore.  Yeah yeah never pay retail for a game blah blah.  That being said Colonial Marines was something I'd have spent the full price on but now I'll wait for the price drop just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 08:35:44 pm »
Is Immersive 3d Really the best thing that can happen for games?

 If they realease another 2d Mario in 5yrs from now.. I guarantee it will still sell well, and that people may enjoy it more than any virtual reality game.

 Graphics get more and more realistic, but eventually, people will be bored with realism... and seek the Artistic.  Such as Cartoon, Vector, Abstract, Paint/Multimedia, Claymation, etc.  Interpretive works.

 Real can be boring.  Thats why many games, like Outrun, Spyhunter, Supersprint... chuck out all the real world driving physics, pump up the speed and challenge, and just rock it with pure Fun-Factor.

But also, gameplay wise, its very difficult to make a challenging virtual environmental game.  A typical person does not have enough feedback yet: Full panoramic stereoscopic 3d head gear w/ tracking, hi-def full-height-level surround sound, and a giant trackball to run around inside... or a rolling mat of sorts that keeps you centered no matter how you move.

 As such, the player is limited in expression, and the game needs to be programmed so that even the least coordinated players, with the worst possible controllers, can play it through just fine.

 And because there are so many poorly skilled players out there that enjoy a very easy romp through pretty graphics... it makes things even worse.  The companies just keep cranking out the same old hat, for 20+ yrs in a row.  Adding pretty much nothing new to the formula.

 
Quote
don't make me want to spend $60 day one anymore.

 That and the fact that once you hit a certain age and responsibility level.. many people just cant afford the new-game collecting hobby.  We also have many other areas in life, that require our hard earned, and not so easy to come by these days,  Cash.

Quote
just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.

 I wont buy a game until Ive played it at least for a little while, to see if its even worth it.  Very few games have good enough gameplay balance and challenge, to make me even consider a purchase.


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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 11:04:28 pm »
Quote
just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.

 I wont buy a game until Ive played it at least for a little while, to see if its even worth it.  Very few games have good enough gameplay balance and challenge, to make me even consider a purchase.


[/quote]

I can't argue with that when I'm just being petty about it.  They do have to deal with Fox on this and probably shifted staff over for another big project that coming out sooner.

As far as immersion peripherals goes I really hope it doesn't come to that.  It would just become too costly for what you'd probably get out of it though I might be for the vr headset with surround sound since that seems equivalent to getting a receiver.  Even now companies need to deal with HD content and one could argue that helped give rise to the whole triple A gaming nonsense so the added cost will just be shifted to the consumer and any potential project that isn't considered cost effective by the big companies won't see daylight.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 01:21:39 am »
Quote
just to spite GearBox for constantly pushing it back.

 Personally I would say yay to sticking it to whats probably a 3d style game company... However, the reality of making a game is that it takes a lot of time and efforts.   Would you rather they released the game filled with bugs, crashes, and various problems?  Unfinished levels, unfinished sound / music...etc?  And what if they ran out of funding temporarily?   There are many reasons why things get pushed back... and usually, its for the better.  Not just to tick off a potential customer.
I don't disagree with any of your points, it's just that 3 years from the original expected release date is a long time to delay a game :)

shmokes

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 09:09:35 am »
the fundamental intent since 3D games have emerged has been on simulating reality.

I think this is nonsense. How does God of War simulate reality? How does Legend of Zelda? 2D games, with their bipedal (or quadripedal) characters and their gravity, etc., have always striven, to exactly the same extent, to simulate reality. Which is to say that we naturally create videogames that players can understand intuitively. Real life isn't pixelated. Does that mean that the move from the Atari to the NES was an attempt to simulate reality? I mean, actually sort of, but not in any way that is meaningful. The same goes for a system that can do 3D. How is Rez any more realistic than Sim City? How is Super Mario Galaxy any more realistic than Super Mario World, aside from the Z axis, of course? The point isn't to simulate reality. That's not the point at all. The point is to create fun experiences, just like it has always been. And there is no shortage of new extraordinary experiences to be had on new consoles--experiences that weren't possible on previous consoles. If you want to arbitrarily cut yourself off from them, that's find. But staking a claim to some kind of moral or intellectual high ground is absurd.

I don't watch many new movies, because there's not much new in the stories. I'm not reading anything lately for the same reason.

You're not reading anything for the same reason? Wtf does that mean, you've read every old book worth reading? I guess you've exhausted Tolstoy and Dumas. There's no Twain or Steinbeck or Hemingway you haven't read? Nothing by Dickens or Austen has escaped your extraordinarily well-read eyes? Samuel Butler? Dostoyevsky? Defoe? Salinger? Heller? Orwell? Joyce? Voltaire? Shakespeare? Fitzgerald? Wilde? Faulkner? Hugo? Christie? Stevenson? Thoreau? Wells? And, like you say, god knows nothing worthwhile is being written today. It's not like we have Kurt Vonnegut and John Irving and Michael Chabon and Susan Clarke and David Foster Wallace and Edward Abbey and Douglas Adams and H.F. Saint and Mark Haddon and David Mitchell and Tom Robbins and Steven King and Junot Diaz and Chuck Palahniuk and Philip Roth and  . . . and so on.

Seriously, you've stopped reading altogether because there are no books left that are up to your standards? LOL. I guess I'm just not as impressive a person as you. For me, I'll just go on wallowing in the muck. No matter how much I read, my to-read list has always grown, and surely will always grow, faster than my have-read list. Same goes for movies, and there's no point even arguing that the quality of television is not leaps and bounds better than it's ever been before.

edit: p.s. I know that there are a couple of corpses on my list of modern authors.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:12:18 am by shmokes »
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 09:25:41 am »
A fully  interactive gamers paradise was built on " The Gadget Show " in the UK. It has a 360 projection, surround sound, Walking on game pad for movement and feed back Via paintball gun, Watch the video...
Ultimate Battlefield 3 Simulator - Build & Test (Full Video) - The Gadget Show

Just waiting for one to be installed near me ;D

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 06:31:53 pm »
Perhaps the intent was to suggest that all the next gen marketing nonsense doesn't really matter and until something amazing comes along...it will just continue to be marketing nonsense. 

This.


@shmokes: many things have been written, and well. Some of it I've read, a lot of it I've never wanted to read. There might be a few things out there I'd like to read, but I'd have to look a little for them.
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shmokes

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2012, 10:17:17 pm »
Books and movies aside (though I highly recommend Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke), I think you're not giving the newer systems a fair shake. Increased processor power, graphics power, audio and storage have enabled experiences that go so SO much further than make games look and sound superficially prettier or more realistic. I mean, first, making something look and sound more realistic isn't for nothing. More than anything else, what made Star Wars so amazing in 1977 or whatever was the amazing special effects. They have a substantial impact on immersion.

But even if you don't place any stock in that, it doesn't begin to end there. The processors can now calculate extraordinarily complex physics models, making all kinds of cool things possible, like destructible environments. Lighting engines calculate shadows which are used in gameplay for stealth and atmosphere. Non-player-characters and enemies can behave in challenging and unpredictable ways thanks to complex AI routines. High resolution models screens and 3d models allows for the rendering of individual limbs, causing enemies to react differently depending on, e.g., whether they were shot in the hand or in the face. Open world games are . . . possible. Grand Theft Auto isn't everyone's cup of tea, but my god, I don't know how many hours (A LOT) I've spent just driving around those cities with no particular purpose in mind--just driving around, finding new places, hopping fences, exploring. Racing games can employ complex physics models. Many MANY enemies can be moving onscreen simultaneously without causing the whole system to choke. Surround sound can be utilized for both immersion and to directly enhance gameplay. Sports games are light years better than ever, whether you're talking about realistic like Madden or exaggerated like Blitz. And, of course, narrative has made huge strides as well.

I honestly think there's just not that much substance to your complaints. There's phenomenal work being done right now on the new systems. And I haven't even touched upon the renaissance in indy game development that's going on right now. World of Goo. Amnesia. Sword and Sworcery. Braid. Journey. Flower. Scott Pilgrim. Cave Story. I mean, it doesn't matter what kind of games you like (unless you're a point-and-click adventure fan, of course) there's just no shortage of phenomenal choices at your fingertips right now on the new systems.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2012, 04:31:18 am »
video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games. take resident evil for example. those games used to be fun. re5 wasnt even a survival horror. it was more like "here are lots of guns and ammo..go kill stuff"

how did fighting games turn into crapfest like sfxtekken? it has 'pay to win' gem and 'auto block' gems. basically retarded kids online would hold forward and do whatever and abuse the auto block.

then I saw a 'silent hill multiplayer'. fail so epic its almost a win.. :dizzy:

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2012, 08:44:39 am »
Pfft . . . when has this ever not been the case? At what point in our history was the videogame market not filled with cookie cutter garbage? It's silly. And you talk about the Resident Evil franchise being garbage now (a comical assertion since the original Resident Evil couldn't be a bigger rip off cookie cutter of Alone in the Dark) when the high point of the entire series was Resident Evil 4. That was just one generation ago.

I mean, I suppose there is something to what you're saying. Major videogame budgets are so big now that publishers are probably more conservative now than ever before . . . leading to more sequels and fewer new IPs. But I already talked about the blossoming of the Indy games market this (and XBLA/PSN) has come from this. Plus, even the big publishers are giving us great new IPs pretty regularly. Look at Red Dead, L.A. Noir, Bioshock (which is a sequel, but may as well be a new IP), Dead Space, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, The Last of Us, and here's a list of mostly upcoming new IP with a lot of potential.

If you ask me, this is probably more about kids playing on your lawn than anything else.  ;D
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2012, 11:45:45 am »
video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games. take resident evil for example. those games used to be fun. re5 wasnt even a survival horror. it was more like "here are lots of guns and ammo..go kill stuff"

how did fighting games turn into crapfest like sfxtekken? it has 'pay to win' gem and 'auto block' gems. basically retarded kids online would hold forward and do whatever and abuse the auto block.

then I saw a 'silent hill multiplayer'. fail so epic its almost a win.. :dizzy:

The reason you're not seeing innovation is you're stuck in a stagnant genre.  Try looking outside of fighting and survival horror and you'll find a lot of cool new ideas.

While your old favorite developers are polishing up 90's gameplay there are a lot of others pushing new boundaries.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 04:41:43 pm »
I remember in the late 80s/early 90s yearning for more sci-fi/comic book movies to be done. There wasn't the cultural demand, but also some things weren't that possible. I feel differently now. I find that stuff trite. Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

Game-wise....well, that's just it, it shouldn't be a game. It should be like a dream, where you might know it's not 'real', but it's real. Actually, you can do this every night when you sleep. Oh, but you can play retro games in your dreams. Sometimes I do.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 12:39:16 am »
Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

I'm not huge on fantasy, but again, check out Jonathan Strange. It's the opposite of trite. In fact, it's written very much like a scholarly work on the history of English magic, extensive fictional footnotes and all. I'm not big on fantasy, either. Aside from Tolkien and J.K. Rowling and the one Discworld book I read, I think I've hated every fantasy book I've read. That includes the garbage Game of Thrones series (HBO treatment is pretty good, though). But Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is a masterpiece.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 12:43:06 am »
Get OFF the console and start looking on steam.

It has everything from the $60 first day titles everyone is complaining about, right down to 80s style games that even have 80s style graphics. I have around 500 games on my steam account and plenty of them veer far away from the idea of 3d reality simulation.

Some specifically retro standouts on my own personal account include.

Terraria (the best nes game that never was).
Eversion (what if Mario was scary).
Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.
Puzzle Kingdoms. Has a real gameboy/snes feel.

Some other titles I have that have seen a lot of play, but that are not particularly retro.
Left 4 Dead 1 & 2. 3d multiplayer zombie survival
Team Fortress 2. Great multiplayer action
Magic and Magic 2012; That expensive card game without having to buy the cards.
Torchlight: Diablo, but way better.
Borderlands: Cross between diablo and a FPS.
Orcs must Die: Incredible single player first person defense title with a dragon's lair feel.
Defense Grid. The defining title of the tower defense genre.
Mafia II. Similar to Grand Theft Auto, but less free roaming and far more polished.
Burnout Paradise. Great free roaming driving title.
Half Life series. I have all of these. They are incredible.
Juiced 2. Seems to be a game based on the fictional underground streetracing scene as pictured in the movies.
Civilization 4. Wonderful strategy game and Leonard Nimoy narrates!
Titan Quest. A better Diablo.
Poker Night at the Inventory. A graphical poker game, played against characters from the gaming world.

And, I only slogged through the first 60 or 70 games on my account writing this. There is so much more.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 03:45:11 am »
Fantasy is fine, if there's something to it, and mostly there isn't these days.

I'm not huge on fantasy, but again, check out Jonathan Strange. It's the opposite of trite. In fact, it's written very much like a scholarly work on the history of English magic, extensive fictional footnotes and all. I'm not big on fantasy, either. Aside from Tolkien and J.K. Rowling and the one Discworld book I read, I think I've hated every fantasy book I've read. That includes the garbage Game of Thrones series (HBO treatment is pretty good, though). But Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is a masterpiece.

I'll look into it. I have a very particular palette, and just won't do anything in a particular area if there's nothing tasty. I won't play games on anything less than arcade controls, and even then if they're aren't working well (at least working well for me), I won't play games.

Also, I forgot to mention, a recent movie I liked a lot was Up in the Air. The Men who stare at Goats was great fun. Even Zombie Land was pretty good, though I liked the Billy Murray part most.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 05:27:26 am »
I do not agree. For basic eye-hand control, not much happened, but there are some things that do deliver based on what is possible today.

2003-2004 some huge gaming stuff happened.

It'll probably make you laugh though.

Pivotal moment 1:
The introduction of Katamari Damacy.
This was the ultimate clash of pure art, the greatest game music ever, and totally dumb fun gaming. It even resulted in many weird theme parties. It could not have happened before. It is a top-10 ever gaming experience.

Pivotal moment 2:
Second Life:
Most of us still remember the hype and the deception of the "game" in the early years. But it is still going strong, be it in a rather weird niche. But it changed gaming for the good, and again, is totally a great reflection of what is possible with current tech. Even Pac-Man has a nice version in Second-Life. You can be trapped and turned into a Pac-Man machine, and unless someone puts coins in your slot, you're vision is through endless attraction screens with burned in images. It is the most extravagant showcase of weird gaming and creativity ever made, not by a single company, but by its million users. It is gaming in its purest form: let yourself carry away in any fantasy you like.



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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2012, 03:25:28 am »
Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.

Plants vs. Zombie really rocks - that's a nice game. Osmos sounds interesting - I've got to try that one out for sure but Eufloria is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on flowers and that is so inspiring to me because for me flowers are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get flowers delivered by serenata.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2012, 09:03:28 am »
Plants Vs. Zombies. Great game with a SNES feel. Unlimited replayability.
Osmos. Simple concept of particles and gravity. I played it for 41 hours.
Eufloria. Incredible vectorish flower-based strategy game.

Plants vs. Zombie really rocks - that's a nice game. Osmos sounds interesting - I've got to try that one out for sure but Eufloria is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on flowers and that is so inspiring to me because for me flowers are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get flowers delivered by serenata.

This is some awesome spam, well done. 

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2012, 09:24:53 am »
I dont have a problem with current gen games, fps, MMO etc. I think some people need to keep in mind that during the arcade and console boom era's of the 80's and 90's, there were just as many copycat games as there are today. How many run and jump platformer games can you count back in those times? Tons I'm sure.

I do have a personal problem with some of these so called "Indy developers". Guys that are blatantly doing nothing more than ripping off classic games and selling them to make a quick buck off of the retro fad that currently exists. Just saw a game the other day that was nothing more than a clear ripoff of castlevania. I remember homebrew guys doing the same thing years ago and never asking for a penny. I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2012, 11:09:20 am »
I do have a personal problem with some of these so called "Indy developers". Guys that are blatantly doing nothing more than ripping off classic games and selling them to make a quick buck off of the retro fad that currently exists. Just saw a game the other day that was nothing more than a clear ripoff of castlevania.


Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2012, 11:56:27 am »
video game market is filled with cookie cutter garbage now

they make what sells and not awesome/fun games.

This has been the case since the 1980's.  They'll be something innovative, followed by a ton of copy-cats.  The industry crashed about 30 years ago because of this.

However, the crap tends to be forgotten and the good stuff stays remembered.  Which is why it's easy to put on rose-coloured glasses to remember days gone by...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 11:58:19 am by shponglefan »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2012, 12:11:27 pm »
Game-wise....well, that's just it, it shouldn't be a game. It should be like a dream, where you might know it's not 'real', but it's real. Actually, you can do this every night when you sleep. Oh, but you can play retro games in your dreams. Sometimes I do.

Sounds to me like you're less about the video games and more about the recreational narcotics.  :P

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2012, 01:04:41 pm »
Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:
I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2012, 01:32:43 pm »
Dr. mario is one of my most favorite games. It is fun and I simply love strategy games. Above all I love the fact that it is based on Drugs and that is so inspiring to me because for me Drugs are a great inspirational source! I simply love them and right now just talking about them makes me want to get .

Good grief, that is odd spam. I had to fix it for you, just to make it a more believable statement.  :P

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2012, 03:37:04 pm »
Ah. Where you see a rip off I see a homage or tribute. To me a rip-off is more like what gets talked about here: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/2/22/2810409/cloning-wars-vlambeer-vs-gamenauts, a game specifically made to syphon potential customers from the original (such as the bootleg pacman clones of yore). I think most indie games add more than you realize to the formula.

I love the Katamari Damacy(s) of the world, but sometimes games are more of an evolution or revisit than an all new idea, same as in movies, music, etc. Personally, I loved Shadow Complex on XBLA (and pretty much everyone else did too) even though it took every possible cue from Super Metriod.

Not trying to argue, but I think there is a lot more innovation in the indie realm than there has been for a long time in the game industry as a whole, thanks to accessible tools and internet distribution.

Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:
I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2012, 09:22:24 pm »
Ah. Where you see a rip off I see a homage or tribute. To me a rip-off is more like what gets talked about here: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/2/22/2810409/cloning-wars-vlambeer-vs-gamenauts, a game specifically made to syphon potential customers from the original (such as the bootleg pacman clones of yore). I think most indie games add more than you realize to the formula.

I love the Katamari Damacy(s) of the world, but sometimes games are more of an evolution or revisit than an all new idea, same as in movies, music, etc. Personally, I loved Shadow Complex on XBLA (and pretty much everyone else did too) even though it took every possible cue from Super Metriod.

Not trying to argue, but I think there is a lot more innovation in the indie realm than there has been for a long time in the game industry as a whole, thanks to accessible tools and internet distribution.


this is where me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, there are penty of free homebrew games that pay homage to classic games nearly all of them are free and readily available. This has been going on for years and while some companies are bothered by it, some others are flattered, as they should be. However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors. Not to mention there is almost no excuse to play the original games. There are tons of oldschool titles sold on compilation discs, psn, xbox live, wii channel etc.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2012, 10:05:08 pm »
However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors.

As much as that may suck, the alternative (protection of game mechanics) is far worse.  The software industry already has to deal with plenty of litigation over patents.  If game mechanics became protected, then the number of lawsuits in the games industry would skyrocket.  You'd have a major stifling effect on the industry, which would only be a bad thing.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2012, 12:53:44 am »
Hmm. Definitely disagree with your summary of indie development. A lot of new programmers basically re-make the games they loved when they were younger as a way to learn, but I think most of the popular retro-styled indie stuff adds a lot of new stuff or refines the gameplay for modern tastes (Super Meat Boy, Spelunky, Braid, etc.)  I mean, blatant copying happens way too much, even of new game concepts, but not sure if it characterizes all of indie game development. Care to mention the name of that Castlevania rip-off? Perhaps it was more of an homage?

Hence why I wrote this:
I don't have a problem with developers adding new elements to classically inspired games. I just have a problem with guys that do nothing more than steal the IP of other, larger companies who published the same exact game 25 years earlier, changing a few pixels and pushing this garbage over steam in order to make a quick buck.

http://www.destructoid.com/creator-of-iwbtg-is-making-a-castlevania-esque-platformer-227389.phtml

The castlevania clone is just a clear example of what I'm talking about. Sure, castlevania has had its fair share of clones over the years but this is just a blatant copy.  Another being retro city rampage. A classic GTA clone with clear ripoffs (they like to call them inspired references) to mario, contra, ninja turtles, back to the future, bionic commando and at least a dozen other games. Where's the originality in this? For the record, there was already a freely available classic gta clone years ago. A whole year before the same author released grand theftendo.

 :dunno

Free market. They aren't ripping off code, are they? How many 'rip offs' of Coke are there? You are free to pick the one you want...


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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2012, 01:17:51 am »

Free market. They aren't ripping off code, are they?

Why is 'free market' not an equally acceptable answer to ripping off code?
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2012, 01:24:59 am »
Quote
this is where me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, there are penty of free homebrew games that pay homage to classic games nearly all of them are free and readily available. This has been going on for years and while some companies are bothered by it, some others are flattered, as they should be. However when you go about stealing the concept physics and other dynamics from a game, change a few pixels around and sell it to a mass market, that's just theft in my eyes. They are undercutting the original authors. Not to mention there is almost no excuse to play the original games. There are tons of oldschool titles sold on compilation discs, psn, xbox live, wii channel etc.

Lets say you want to make a Marble Madness Clone...  But, you realize you cant do it for free, cause you need to pay all kinds of talent to actually finish the project.  Sadly, most people, when faced with the Reality of all the hard work that goes into a game, disappear quickly.

 You call Midway up... And they tell you that they wont allow you to purchase the rights.  They would program it themselves IF they thought the idea was good... BUT, they wont ever remake MM cause its a puzzle game, and puzzle games dont sell well.

 Now what?

 I can understand your viewpoint, and in certain cases, I agree.  But in a case like this, and many other cases... I disagree.

 Many of these games have already made their money ages ago.   And if the company wanted to make a new version, they are well and free to do so... and would probably trounce all over your efforts, due to the manpower, experience, and talent, behind them.

 The Classic download packs are a joke.  They probably cost more to set up & run than any company ever makes on them.  And worse yet, they are a rip-off... offering almost nothing extra to the person buying them, AND, having substandard controls to boot.

 Corporate re-issue game packs have always been a rip off.  Its only recently that emulation has improved things, merely from the fact that theres no need to reprogram a game from scratch (in most cases).

 
And as said... Almost everything you see is a derivative and or copy of something from the past. 

 Personally, I cant see why anyone would want to make an Identical game.  I always want to take what was, and Add something to the mix.  Graphics are just a shell, but good gameplay is key.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2012, 09:29:40 am »
Lets say you want to make a Marble Madness Clone...  But, you realize you cant do it for free, cause you need to pay all kinds of talent to actually finish the project.  Sadly, most people, when faced with the Reality of all the hard work that goes into a game, disappear quickly.

If you aren't talented enough to make the game then who's fault is it?


You call Midway up... And they tell you that they wont allow you to purchase the rights.  They would program it themselves IF they thought the idea was good... BUT, they wont ever remake MM cause its a puzzle game, and puzzle games dont sell well.

Can you really blame them for protecting their IP?

 Many of these games have already made their money ages ago.   And if the company wanted to make a new version, they are well and free to do so... and would probably trounce all over your efforts, due to the manpower, experience, and talent, behind them.

The Classic download packs are a joke.  They probably cost more to set up & run than any company ever makes on them.  And worse yet, they are a rip-off... offering almost nothing extra to the person buying them, AND, having substandard controls to boot.

 Corporate re-issue game packs have always been a rip off.  Its only recently that emulation has improved things, merely from the fact that theres no need to reprogram a game from scratch (in most cases).

I'm not here to debate how good the game packs are. There are plenty of other ways to get the games you want.

Personally, I cant see why anyone would want to make an Identical game.  I always want to take what was, and Add something to the mix.  Graphics are just a shell, but good gameplay is key.

Agree 100%

As i mentioned before, there are tons of platform games over the decades that take aspects from other platform titles and so fourth. I have zero problem with that. I have a problem with some of these guys that want to make a quick buck creating an "indy" title completely based off of another franchise with zero originality whatsoever.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:43:38 am by 404 »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2012, 12:32:42 pm »
Quote
As i mentioned before, there are tons of platform games over the decades that take aspects from other platform titles and so fourth. I have zero problem with that. I have a problem with some of these guys that want to make a quick buck creating an "indy" title completely based off of another franchise with zero originality whatsoever.

 What about all those FPS games they have made in the last 20yrs?   The gameplay mechanics are pretty much identical.  The only thing that changes, are layouts, graphics, sounds, and story.   Which is pretty much the same as the scenario as the Indie situation you speak of...

 Once you start thinking about chopping up games by mechanics however.. it could ruin the entire creative industry.  As only a company with millions of dollars behind it could afford the lawyers to actually produce anything without a lawsuit, as well as need for legal standings on every move you made, and licensing that big companies will never give out to the little guys.

 
Quote
Can you really blame them for protecting their IP?

 If they never intend to USE that IP, then whats the use protecting it?  Why not allow others the use of it, and share in the profits?   Its pathetic man. Really pathetic.  A corporation does not care about the artistry and preservation.  They would let a game Rot.. merely cause its a business, and nothing else.  Luckily we have things like Mame, else the past would be lost forever.   When we talk about things like this... we realize, that its not a Black and White matter at all.  Legality isnt always the right thing.

Quote
If you aren't talented enough to make the game then who's fault is it?

 Making a game relies on Multiple disciplines.  Its very rare that there are people out there that can: Program, Create sounds, Compose Music,  Render in 3D, Draw in 2d, and make excellent challenging levels.   To make a great game, you need many excellent players in your band.   Not many band members are going to work for free, let along work for free making a free game.  Especially if they are Told what to do, rather than getting a say in it. And frankly put, thats when problems occur.  People like programmers want to change vital gameplay elements... and they simply dont understand how bad that can ruin a game.  But unless you have the money to keep them doing it the Right way... then you will end up with a big mess.

Quote
There are plenty of other ways to get the games you want.
Yeah, LUCKILY not everyone has a stick up their butts, and doesnt think in pure black and white...

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2012, 03:14:09 pm »
I admittedly have skipped most of your arguments, but I sense that perhaps y'all may be conflating various IP concepts. Game mechanics are virtually unprotectable. You can't copyright an idea, only a particular expression of an idea. An idea can be patented, but that's unrealistic. You'd have to have a separate patent for each game mechanic you wished to protect, and it'd have to be something totally unique, innovative and not obvious. Think of the most innovative game mechanics of the last 20 years. You'd never get a patent for most of them. Before Portal, I guarantee that there were other games with portals or wormholes or warp zones that transported you from one part of a level to another. The prior art would invalidate the patent.

Trademarks can last forever, but a trademark can be invalidated by disuse, so actual characters are primarily protected by copyright, but that's no problem. No reason anyone needs to appropriate someone else's characters for a game. Just make your own. I really don't think IP laws are hindering development or innovation in the videogame industry. In the tech industry and pharma industry, sure, but not videogames.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2012, 05:10:20 pm »
I admittedly have skipped most of your arguments, but I sense that perhaps y'all may be conflating various IP concepts. Game mechanics are virtually unprotectable. You can't copyright an idea, only a particular expression of an idea. An idea can be patented, but that's unrealistic. You'd have to have a separate patent for each game mechanic you wished to protect, and it'd have to be something totally unique, innovative and not obvious. Think of the most innovative game mechanics of the last 20 years. You'd never get a patent for most of them. Before Portal, I guarantee that there were other games with portals or wormholes or warp zones that transported you from one part of a level to another. The prior art would invalidate the patent.

Trademarks can last forever, but a trademark can be invalidated by disuse, so actual characters are primarily protected by copyright, but that's no problem. No reason anyone needs to appropriate someone else's characters for a game. Just make your own. I really don't think IP laws are hindering development or innovation in the videogame industry. In the tech industry and pharma industry, sure, but not videogames.

I'm not even sure where anyone keeps bringing up anything about game mechanics and copyrights. My argument was never about the mechanics of a game being copyright-able. I'm speaking on principle here. When you have a game that is blatantly copying another in such a way as some of these so called "retro indy" games have is nothing more than copying and sadly is not as original as most people give them credit for.

If a 5 year old 3D FPS game is being copied by an FPS that is about to be released it seems everyone is up in arms about it. A game that is 25 years old and someone comes along and suddenly blatantly copies it seems that some people leave the copying subject up to debate. Not to mention more and more classics are becoming easily accessible outside of the what some of us know as the emu scene. It's all just my opinion guys, nothing to get your feelings hurt over.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2012, 08:42:40 pm »
Quote
I'm not even sure where anyone keeps bringing up anything about game mechanics and copyrights

 Because you said these Indie games were Copies... but with different graphics / sounds / levels ... which basically leaves One thing:  Game Mechanics.

Quote
If a 5 year old 3D FPS game is being copied by an FPS that is about to be released

 Umm..  All FPS games are pretty much the SAME game.  They have been the same, for like +10yrs.   I wish they would go away, so that good games could be made in their place.



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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2012, 11:40:53 pm »

 Umm..  All FPS games are pretty much the SAME game.  They have been the same, for like +10yrs.   I wish they would go away, so that good games could be made in their place.


That's just silliness. Far Cry is not Halo is not Portal is not Half Life is not Deus Ex is not Thief is not Bioshock. There's as much room for innovation in the first person perspective as there is in the 2D side-scroller.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2012, 11:45:25 pm »
That's just silliness. Far Cry is not Halo is not Portal is not Half Life is not Deus Ex is not Thief is not Bioshock. There's as much room for innovation in the first person perspective as there is in the 2D side-scroller.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 12:14:33 am »
 ???
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2012, 08:41:25 pm »
Game-wise....well, that's just it, it shouldn't be a game. It should be like a dream, where you might know it's not 'real', but it's real. Actually, you can do this every night when you sleep. Oh, but you can play retro games in your dreams. Sometimes I do.

Sounds to me like you're less about the video games and more about the recreational narcotics.  :P

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2012, 09:07:08 am »

Free market. They aren't ripping off code, are they?

Why is 'free market' not an equally acceptable answer to ripping off code?

Not quite understanding this. But maybe I shouldn't have used the term 'free market'. I probably should have said 'designers are free to design what they want, whether it resembles another game or not, so long as they aren't ripping off code which can be an infringement of copyright'.


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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2012, 09:35:12 am »
Yeah, I think "free market" is what put question marks over my head. Nothing but a law restricting the unfettered free market keeps people from ripping of code. And ideas too, frankly. Designers are not free to design a game that contained, for example, Mario. Unless those designers work for Nintendo, of course.

Frankly, I don't think that code should be copyrightable. It should be patentable. The U.S. Patent law (35 U.S.C § 101) says that any "new or useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter" can be patented. It makes far more sense to think of software code as a "new or useful process" than as an expression of creativity like music or writing. It's not like without copyrighting the code you aren't still going to have copyrights on the content. All the characters and world and dialogue, etc., from a videogame are not just copyrightable, the copyright attaches automatically at the moment of creation--regardless of whether the code is protected. But the code is just a process for making those things happen. Code is technology.

I could go on. But the fact that code is copyrightable is both bad public policy and a direct restriction on the free market, IMO.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2012, 11:14:36 am »
I agree with you about the copyright portion, but with patenting, I don't even think code should be patentable. The act of coding could have been patentable, or at least coding in a specific language. The ability to code whatever you want is the "new or useful process", not utilizing it's function. It would be like patenting Photoshop techniques.

Also, it would be a playground for patent trolling if it was patentable. Keep in mind that a patient would not protect the exact coding, but rather the methodology used to accomplish the coding's function. If I made a video game where the guy jumps, I would code parameters for the character to move up for a certain distance, then back down until they hit the ground when when a button is pressed. If someone goes and lays a patent on that, other designers could make a game with a jumping guy, but they would have to find backwards ways of writing a jump function in coding, e.g. write a function that the distance between "ceiling point A" and the guy decrease for a three seconds, then increase until he hits an object below him. I know the ship has sailed for a patent on jumping in a video game, but my point is that with every innovation that gets made in video games, every subsequent company that wants to design that sort of function into their video game will have to examine the patent to make sure they are using a different coding method than the patient.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:16:55 am by Vigo »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2012, 03:14:22 pm »
No, I'm talking about patenting very specific implementations. You couldn't just patent the concept of making a character jump onscreen because that wouldn't pass muster for a patent. Even putting aside prior art, patentable ideas must be new/innovative and non-obvious. And more importantly the whole point of a patent is that it's an exchange between the inventor and society. In exchange for a limited-period monopoly, the inventor must give specific instructions re: how to recreate his invention. Once the patent runs out it's no use to society to check out the guy's patent filing and see piece of paper that just says: Write code to make a guy onscreen jump.

I'm thinking about something more along the lines of the Unreal Engine. You grant them a patent on the entire engine, and during the monopoly period people can't use the specific code from the engine. But when the patent expires, the whole thing is public domain. I'd analogize the code to a particular recipe in pharmaceuticals. Pfizer patents Viagra--in so doing they hand over the recipe to society, but nobody else can commercialize it. That doesn't stop others from accomplishing the same result with another recipe (see: Cialis). The code in the unreal engine seems to me like the chemical makeup, the recipe for Viagra.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2012, 04:52:51 pm »
Umm..........The example of the guy jumping was simply an illustration. Of course it is not patentable since jumping occurs all the time in video games. I am referring to game functions that have not been concepted yet. For example, a unique item generator function in a game.

As you point out in your drug patent example, it is not the pill itself that is patented, nor what it can do. It is the ingredients that are patented. So therefore, the Unreal Engine as a whole cannot be patented, FPS game engines already existed. A patent only covers the invented methodology that is new and unique. So then, the unreal engine is not patentable, then it dissolved back to the "ingredients" as you call them in the drug example, i.e, stuff like the "guy jumping" as being the part that is under question. Things in a game engine shooting to light rendering only serve the purpose of shooting and rendering light. A patient on those would only basic function. All the patented ingredients in viagra are designed to give people an erection. The difference in a gaming engine is that it serves many functions, not just one. To think of it in a more tangible way, I remember the thread on the Street fight cabinet patient. It had a patient out for a system to create a hydraulic feedback on the joystick. Capcom did not create a patient covering the entire arcade machine. All the elements that make up a standard arcade machine at that point were unpatentable. only the hydraulic controls were novel. So why should the unreal engine be patentable when most of it's concepts already existed?

Now you can argue that a new idea itself in coding could be patentable, but things like inventory management or battle systems are just ideas. They cannot be patented. So what does that leave us with? Gaming physics; rendering, shading, the real gears that drive a game. That is nothing more than applied mathematics. you cannot patent math, even if it's use serves a tangle function.

And I also want to mention, while I agreed with you before that coding should not be copyrightable, I was only referring to coding functions. The Unreal engine as a whole should be copyrightable. If someone goes out there and copies the the unreal engine for their own game to run, that is plagarism and falls under copyright law.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 04:58:10 pm by Vigo »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2012, 08:21:46 pm »
Sorry . . . that's a lot to write based on a complete misunderstanding of the post you were responding to. I should have explained better. "Prior art" means that something you are trying to patent has already been done before (and it precludes getting a patent). So when I said, "Even putting aside prior art . . . , " I mean, even if nobody had made a videogame guy jump before, it wouldn't be patentable for those other reasons I listed.

I have the impression that you also misunderstand my pharmaceutical analogy as well. Viagra doesn't patent an end result. It patents an exact formula that leads to an end result. Similarly, Epic wouldn't be patenting the concept of a 3D engine. They would be patenting specific formulas that make up their 3D engine. The Crysis engine (like Cialis with erections) produces more or less the same result, but it uses different formulas (different code). That's basically how most patents work. When someone develops a better combine, the patent office doesn't say, "You can't patent that. People have been harvesting grain for years." They give you a patent on that particular way of harvesting crops. I'm not talking about patenting battle systems or inventory management. I'm talking about getting a patent on the particular method you use of creating those things (your code).

Math, by the way, isn't entirely unpatentable. Google would not be the company it is today if Larry Page/Stanford didn't have a patent on his search algorithm. You can go ahead and continue using math all you want. But Bing and Yahoo certainly cannot apply that algorithm to their search engines.

If someone goes out there and copies the the unreal engine for their own game to run, that is plagarism and falls under copyright law.

Of course. That's the whole reason we're having this discussion. I said, "Frankly, I don't think that code should be copyrightable. It should be patentable." This is the case because courts, lacking specific legislation to deal with a new technology, eventually settled on protecting programmers' work under the guise of copyright. But copyright wasn't created for, nor is it suited to, protecting something like software code. Computer software is not a creative/artistic work the way a drawing or a book or an essay or a poem or a piece of music is. Code is more like the plumbing and wiring and framing of a building. There's never going to be a gallery displaying famous works of code. Nobody's going to publish an anthology of John Carmack's most innovative code (for people to just read for enjoyment, mind you, not for them to use which is illegal). Code, in short, is not art.

But more importantly, think about the policy behind our intellectual property system. Why do we do it? We worship the free market and abhor a market failure, the worst of which is the dreaded monopoly. When a monopoly develops naturally, we have a government agency that goes in and chops the company up. We hate monopolies. So why would a society so hellbent against monopolies actually grant monopolies to patent holders? The simple answer is to "encourage innovation". And while that's true, the better answer is that we aren't granting a monopoly. We're selling it. Because it's an exchange. As you can see from the link to Larry Page's Google patent, it's ALL there. In exchange for a temporary monopoly, he has to give us EVERYTHING. And when the patent runs out, that information that might otherwise have been locked up as a trade secret for a hundred years, even lost forever if the company ever disappeared (history is rife with examples), all that information belongs to society. Same goes for Viagra. When their patent runs out, society already has the recipe--and has had it since Pfizer submitted its patent application. On the day of expiration, the generics will already be on the shelves, identical to the original.

Copyright is an entirely different story. It's meant to protect creative expression. And, importantly, it protects it for a ---smurfing--- long time--the life of the author plus an additional 70 years! That creates some obvious problems for code. For one thing, who is the author? It could be hundreds of people. In that case we can treat it as an anonymous work and then the protection just lasts a flat 95 years from the date of publication or 120 years from the date of creation, whichever comes first. Obviously this means that no useful software can ever revert to the public domain. There will never be a time in history when 100 year old software will be useful to anyone. Moreover, since it's not an artistic work, like everything else that can be copyrighted, it's no good to the public while it's under copyright.

Computer code, IMO, is about innovation, not artistic expression. The patent system is designed to encourage innovation. A patent lasts only 17 years (IIRC), which makes WAY more sense for software than 75-120 years. Frankly, I think we need new legislation creating a "software patent", that would expire much sooner, maybe 10 years (taking into account the pace of change and innovation in the industry), and addressing any areas where the standard patent laws don't fit well on account of having been written before computers were a thing.


edit: typos
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 10:02:33 pm by shmokes »
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2012, 05:39:10 pm »
Phew that was a big wall-o-text, are you gunning for the X2 award there?  ;D

I am sorry you have the impression that I don't understand patents perhaps you should reread my post. Things that you claim I don't get, such as "prior art" or not being able to patent end results...that is the exact points I am trying to make. So when you said you thought the unreal engine should be patentable, I am saying it can't for those exact reasons.

Math, by the way, isn't entirely unpatentable. Google would not be the company it is today if Larry Page/Stanford didn't have a patent on his search algorithm.

First, math is not patentable. Read Gottschalk v. Benson, the supreme court determined that the math composing the makeup of computer software is not patentable. Read Diamond v. Diehr, they again determined the same thing. Math is not patentable.

Second, the Google Search Engine, nor the Algorithm itself is patented. What is patented is "PageRank" Pagerank was a utility that was made by one of the founders of Google. It was a utility that more or less ranked webpages by the number of times it could find an outside link to that webpage. Since math is not observed in the patent, Yahoo could use that exact algorithm to do whatever they want other than produce search results. So, they could use that exact algorithm to determine where to place advertising. Inversely, yahoo cannot rank pages on external link counts, even if they come up with a completely different mathematical method of doing so.

Now why does that not apply to game engines? Well, because most all aspects of game physics, rendering, shading, interface, etc already exist. you could have the most unique amazing algorithm the world for rendering lighting in a video game, but since light rendering is common to game engines, it cannot be patented. I come up with new physics method? It might look a hundred times more realistic, but sorry, its all just the math that really differentiates it from a previous physics model. We might be entering some new patentable turf we we progress to more VR/realism tech of video games down the road, but a gaming engine or unique coding or a game itself? No. Not patentable.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2012, 01:19:55 pm »
What you appear to be misunderstanding is my point. I wasn't trying to explain the concept of prior art to you. I was trying to explain that prior art is irrelevant because the concept of making a videogame character jump was never patentable.

I said:

You couldn't just patent the concept of making a character jump onscreen because that wouldn't pass muster for a patent. Even putting aside prior art, patentable ideas must be new/innovative and non-obvious.

To which you responded:

Umm..........The example of the guy jumping was simply an illustration. Of course it is not patentable since jumping occurs all the time in video games. I am referring to game functions that have not been concepted yet.

In other words, you obviously misunderstood my post. My point was that prior art wasn't the issue and your response was essentially, "Duh . . . I already know that prior art is the issue."

You are also getting basic patent principles wrong. You say that, "Since light rendering is common to game engines, it cannot be patented." That is not true. That's like saying that since directional input is common to videogames, Nintendo could not patent the directional pad on the NES gamepad. Which, of course, they did. Once again, prior art is not the reason light rendering as a concept could not be patented. Of course, prior art exists, but the courts would never even get to that question. Light rendering, as a concept, is fundamentally not patentable for more-or-less the same reasons that math by itself cannot be patented.

You're also wrong about math and software generally being unpatentable. It's a very muddy area of patent law. Specific applications of math when combined with a machine, are patentable. Patent holders for years have used the general purpose computer as the "machine" in that formula, arguing that their code alters or transforms the general purpose computer. And those patents have been issued time and time again.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2012, 05:08:31 pm »
Vigo. shmokes is a lawyer, yo (although I don't have the experience in seeing a lengthy post by shmokes that I do instantly when I see a post by X).
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2012, 05:21:40 pm »
Though, to be fair, I'm not an intellectual property lawyer. I had an IP class in law school, but the only actual IP work I've ever done as a lawyer is about three weeks of document review on a patent dispute case that had nothing to do with the validity of a patent but rather claims that one company was exceeding the scope of its license to use another company's patent.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2012, 06:05:08 pm »
Yep, I know your legal background, and respect that. I'm also appreciate you are respectable about it as well and not once pointing it out. :cheers: I don't have any legal background other than employment and labor law. I do take an avid interest in the topic of IP law and read up on it quite a bit.

I also wan't to point out, as I'm sure shmokes already knows, that patent law over software is controversial right now. I'm sure that there are IP lawyers out there agree take my position, as IP lawyers who take shmokes position. Patent law was in a bulk, formed before such a concept of software existed. The supreme court has remained very silent on certain aspects of their position in cases involving Software patents. Intentionally leaving certain areas open to interpretation. Frankly, I'm sure it has a lot to do with that they don't understand the inner workings of programming.

You are also getting basic patent principles wrong. You say that, "Since light rendering is common to game engines, it cannot be patented." That is not true. That's like saying that since directional input is common to videogames, Nintendo could not patent the directional pad on the NES gamepad. Which, of course, they did. Once again, prior art is not the reason light rendering as a concept could not be patented. Of course, prior art exists, but the courts would never even get to that question. Light rendering, as a concept, is fundamentally not patentable for more-or-less the same reasons that math by itself cannot be patented.

You're also wrong about math and software generally being unpatentable. It's a very muddy area of patent law. Specific applications of math when combined with a machine, are patentable. Patent holders for years have used the general purpose computer as the "machine" in that formula, arguing that their code alters or transforms the general purpose computer. And those patents have been issued time and time again.

With the Nintendo D-pad case, you are talking about a unique physical machine. Yes, that is novel, that is patentable. It was not directional input that was patented, it was a physical pad that you could control directions with your thumb. If they were not the first to do it or secure a patent, then they could not patent a directional pad. now in the case of light rendering, I assume every modern game engine out there today has light rendering. What differenciates renderer 1 from renderer 2? code. They all still do the same thing and nothing physical separates them. It really has nothing to do with prior art at all. It has to do with the novelty portion of patent law.

So now you point out that math can potentially be patented when it is coupled with a machine. That a machine with only differing code from the next can be patented. That is actually untrue and that goes back to the Diamond v. Diehr case I pointed out earlier. The court pointed out that a machine that used computer code as part of it's function could be patented, but the computer code used is completely unpatentable. They determined that computer code is math and math is not patentable. The machine could be patented but not based the computer code as the factor setting it apart. There would have to be more unique to the machine in order for a patent to be issued.

I don't know how else to put this. I mean, computer code is not patentable, the supreme court said that on multiple occasions. nothing about game engine "A" compared to game engine "B" is novel other than computer code and computer code is not an eligible criteria for a patent. So where is the notion of patentability come from? If the engine accomplished something truely unique to gaming, then perhaps it has a shot, but If I make a super duper first person shooter engine that looks spectacular, there is nothing that is unique enough other than my steller code that could seperate it enough from the Unreal engine. Now if I devised a way for my game engine to do something new like render air molecules to affect bullet trajectory, then maybe that specific programmed function has a shot at a patent. Everything else that has been done before? No. Not at all.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 06:09:34 pm by Vigo »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2012, 10:49:25 pm »
This argument is taking a bunch of strange jumps. First, I know that in general code is copyrighted and not patented. This whole discussion started from me saying that I think software should be governed by patent rather than copyright, and saying that, lacking specific legislation, courts decided to protect code under the guise of copyright.

Nevertheless, software (and math) are patented on a regular basis. I think that you are misreading the Diamond case. In upholding the patent in issue, the Supreme court noted:

Quote
. . . the respondents here do not seek to patent a mathematical formula. Instead, they seek patent protection for a process of curing synthetic rubber. Their process admittedly employs a well-known mathematical equation, but they do not seek to pre-empt the use of that equation. Rather, they seek only to foreclose from others the use of that equation in conjunction with all of the other steps in their claimed process.
[Emphasis mine]

Quote
when a claim containing a mathematical formula implements or applies that formula in a structure or process which, when considered as a whole, is performing a function which the patent laws were designed to protect (e. g., transforming or reducing an article to a different state or thing), then the claim satisfies the requirements of 101.

Quote
In Gottschalk v. Benson we noted: "It is said that the decision precludes a patent for any program servicing a computer. We do not so hold." 409 U.S., at 71 . Similarly, in Parker v. Flook we stated that "a process is not unpatentable simply because it contains a law of nature or a mathematical algorithm." 437 U.S., at 590 . It is now commonplace that an application of a law of nature or mathematical formula to a known structure or process may well be deserving of patent protection.
[Emphasis mine]

This is similar to Larry pages patent on his page rank algorithm. He did not patent the algorithm in the abstract, but nobody else can use that algorithm in conjunction with a search engine. You can't be even passingly familiar with the smartphone industry and the various injunctions Apple, Samsung, Google/Motorola, etc., are fighting every day (injunctions, it's worth noting, that are generally cured by a software update), and not know at least intuitively that software patents exist. The MP3 encoding format is patented. So is H.264. Here's a website dedicated to discussing software patents and related disputes.

I'm telling you, math and code are not entirely unpatentable.

But that's all a bit of a digression, cos my whole point was that I think code should not be copyrightable and should be patentable. I know that in general code is covered by copyright. But one major reason for this, I'm guessing, is that you don't have to apply for a copyright to have copyright protection, whereas if you want a software patent, you've gotta submit a patent application to the USPTO. In any case, I didn't mean to start a discussion here about the way things are, but rather the way they should be. Even if you are totally right, and everything I've said here has been utterly misguided and wrong, my fundamental argument here doesn't change at all. Software should be covered by patent, not copyright.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 10:55:54 pm by shmokes »
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2012, 10:42:11 am »
With your previous post on math in patents, I don't think I ever thought on the contrary to your point. I think we were just just completely stepping on each others toes in semantics. If I clarify that Math itself is never patentable but something that uses the math as part of it's function could potentially be patented, I think we agree. It could be software or a physical machine. The math does not make it patentable, but rather the methods and concepts used that could make it patentable.

I was previously getting the impression that you were saying that any game engine designed with better or new features could be patented, from points like your ingredients in a drug recipe arguement. I see that is probably your point of view on how you would like patent law to view it, rather than how it really is currently viewed. Makes sense now. Sorry about my complete misunderstanding on that, I wouldn't have debated you on it had I been thinking about that. 8)

I do agree that if in theory if someone designed a video game employing some new and novel ideas, they could potentially patent the particular portions of that game that are truely unique. And I am not talking a better coding way to render more visually stunning image, or a cooler looking HUD etc. I mean something really new and unique. So, maybe if a video game came up with a totally innovative AI system, the game nor the engine on a whole should be patentable, but I believe the AI system could potentially be patented. So in that sense, I am totally agreeing with you about patents in video games.

I personally don't see a whole lot of innovation these days. 99.9% of games out there today have nothing unique, so I would say that 99.9% of games made should not be patentable. I guess my point is coming full circle back to the OP's original point then.  :lol

So, I think we may have possibly have differing opinions on how much could be patented in games, or how the that patent should be reformed for modern technology, but after adjusting my interpretation of your posts, I think we are pretty much agreeing on the state of patent law.  :cheers:

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2012, 11:28:49 am »
I personally don't see a whole lot of innovation these days. 99.9% of games out there today have nothing unique, so I would say that 99.9% of games made should not be patentable. I guess my point is coming full circle back to the OP's original point then.  :lol

This fact is actually central to my reason for wanting to protect code exclusively with patent rather than copyright. If you write some code that is truly innovative, ---smurfing--- patent your creation like every other inventor. But as it stands, even though, as you say, 99.9% of the code out there totally devoid of innovation (and obviously it has no artistic value), every single line of code is automatically subject to 100+ years of protection at the moment of its creation--you don't even have to apply for the protection. Though if someone figures out cold fusion or teleportation or builds a real-life Star Trek replicator, they're going to get only 17 years of protection from the date of application. Or no protection if they fail to make a formal and proper application for protection. It makes no sense. 
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2012, 02:21:09 pm »
I do think that video games have artistic and innovative value, but more along the lines how putting Jack Daniels in Sweet Baby Rays BBQ sauce is a good improvement. It might be clever, but by far not the first time alcohol has been introduced to BBQ.

I completely agree with you on how much of a joke copyright law is. Its not that I think copyright shouldn't exist, it is that it shouldn't exist for the duration or degree that it does. I also think that copyright should in essence diminish with age. So a currently held copyright like Donkey Kong would not even have the same controls on the original game as it has on something newer like that DK game for the Wii. I think a flat out full copyright protection, until it expires is a bad thing. (Expecially when the expiration is 70 years after the creator's death).

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2012, 02:41:37 pm »
And don't get me wrong. Videogames are dripping with artistic value. I'd copyright the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of videogames. Mario and Bowser and Peach are copyrighted. The dialogue in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas--copyrighted. It's specifically the code behind the games that should be subject to patent and not copyright.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2012, 02:46:05 pm »
Its not that I think copyright shouldn't exist, it is that it shouldn't exist for the duration or degree that it does.

There's a running joke in the IP industry that copyright lasts, "For the life of Mickey Mouse plus 70 years." Because copyright protection didn't always last so long. I think it used to be only 50 years of protection. But Disney successfully lobbied for legislation extending the duration of copyright protection at least once, maybe twice, when the copyright protecting Mickey Mouse was getting ready to expire. So shortly before he's set to come into the public domain again we can probably assume that copyright law will be changed again to give life of the author plus 100 years.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2012, 02:49:56 pm »
Half a novel of debating, and it turns out we agree on this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  :dunno

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 01:41:53 am »
Half a novel of debating...

That's what I meant, V.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 10:30:09 am »
In all fairness, shmokes had a lot that he did not thresh out. You can't just state that you think video games should be patentable and expect that to make sense. We are talking about a work that for most cases is completely unoriginal and unchanged except on the creative end and mathematical details. It's kinda like claiming wall clocks should be presently patentable. Even a law degree doesn't give you a pass on that without better explanation.

I'll admit though I did make a lot of assumptions on his argument that drew things out much longer than needed. In the end it panned out to be another pointless internet argument, but I don't think either shmokes or I are phased by it.  :dunno

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 11:08:53 am »
It's kinda like claiming wall clocks should be presently patentable.

You are still suggesting a serious flaw in your understanding of patents. Wall clocks are totally patentable. Obviously you cannot patent the abstract idea of a wall clock. But a specific implementation of a wall clock, if it's innovative and non-obvious, can be patented. This was the frequent subject of our disagreement about patenting code. You would say, "You can't patent making a guy jump or light rendering," but that's not how patents work. You can't patent those obvious or abstract ideas in the same way you can't patent wall clocks in general. But you can patent specific, innovative implementations. You can certainly patent the better wall clock. And until your patent runs out other people will have to make due building regular wall clocks, or wall clocks that are better in some other non-patent-infringing way.

In short, yes, saying that code should be subject to patent rather than copyright is very much like saying that clocks should be subject to patent rather than copyright. And in more-or-less exactly the same way.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 11:25:52 am »
It's kinda like claiming wall clocks should be presently patentable.

You are still suggesting a serious flaw in your understanding of patents. Wall clocks are totally patentable. Obviously you cannot patent the abstract idea of a wall clock. But a specific implementation of a wall clock, if it's innovative and non-obvious, can be patented. This was the frequent subject of our disagreement about patenting code. You would say, "You can't patent making a guy jump or light rendering," but that's not how patents work. You can't patent those obvious or abstract ideas in the same way you can't patent wall clocks in general. But you can patent specific, innovative implementations. You can certainly patent the better wall clock. And until your patent runs out other people will have to make due building regular wall clocks, or wall clocks that are better in some other non-patent-infringing way.

In short, yes, saying that code should be subject to patent rather than copyright is very much like saying that clocks should be subject to patent rather than copyright. And in more-or-less exactly the same way.

Not a misunderstanding of patents at all. Notice I said "presently patentable". A quartz clock today is not patentable. I am pointing out exactly why your argument is confusing. If from ground up, I designed an new concept for a clock, yes it could potentially be patented. You do not buy that kind of clock at the store though. I go to K-mart, Target, Walmart....I find the same standard quartz clocks no matter where I shop. None of those clocks are patentable. None. Sure, there might be some wacky Talking fishhead clock that projects the time through LEDs when you clap that could be patented. However you come across a wall clock that is actually patentable like that only once upon a blue moon.

When you were first pressing your case, you were talking about how video games should be patentable like drugs, it was the precise ingredients that made up a game that made it patentable. That is what really threw me off the trail, because it is suggesting that any game that is designed from the bottom up could be patented as a whole because the "ingredients" were unique. I could equally point out your failed logic, but I am going to go on a limb and say that was just a bad analogy.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:27:54 am by Vigo »

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 11:33:32 am »
A quartz clock is patentable. You wouldn't even know whether the clocks on the wall at Target have patented tech in them. You come up with a method of making a quartz clock more accurate, more efficient, cheaper to produce, etc., and you'll get a patent. You don't just get patent on things that are completely brand new. You can patent improvements to existing technology.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2012, 11:46:48 am »
A quartz clock is patentable. You wouldn't even know whether the clocks on the wall at Target have patented tech in them. You come up with a method of making a quartz clock more accurate, more efficient, cheaper to produce, etc., and you'll get a patent. You don't just get patent on things that are completely brand new. You can patent improvements to existing technology.

You would receive a patent on the process for manufacturing a cheaper quartz clock - not a patent on the clock.   A more accurate clock, if it was implemented differently in a physical manner, may receive a patent.  If it is only an improvment of the physical materials involved then it is not patentable.

Patents are on new ways of doing something.  Improvements on existing methods are usually shot down in the patent evaluation process if the holder of the existing method speaks up.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2012, 11:58:33 am »
Improvements on existing methods are usually shot down in the patent evaluation process if the holder of the existing method speaks up.

The patent on the existing method, as in the case of the quartz clock, is often long since expired. Anyway, that's not the point. I'm obviously not arguing that you can patent something that's already patented.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2012, 12:03:24 pm »
A quartz clock is still not patentable. If a clock was implemented differently in a physical manner, then it is no longer a quartz clock. As Chad said, any differences in manufacturing on the same method of clock could only patent the process, not the clock.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2012, 12:13:45 pm »
This is silly. You're just arguing a straw man now. Obviously a person cannot go out and get a patent on an unchanged quartz clock. Are you seriously going to pretend that that's how you are reading my argument. No, the patent would be on the modified quartz clock. Obviously. Anyway, I never suggested that someone could patent code itself, or even some specific outcome, like light rendering. I said that they should/could patent a particular innovative implementation of said outcome (so long as it's novel and non-obvious and so on). Which makes perfect sense and is perfectly analogous to the clock.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2012, 01:07:08 pm »
Anyway, I never suggested that someone could patent code itself, or even some specific outcome, like light rendering. I said that they should/could patent a particular innovative implementation of said outcome (so long as it's novel and non-obvious and so on). Which makes perfect sense and is perfectly analogous to the clock.

If you are not suggesting patenting code itself, what did you mean by this?

I'm not talking about patenting battle systems or inventory management. I'm talking about getting a patent on the particular method you use of creating those things (your code).

Frankly, I don't think that code should be copyrightable. It should be patentable. The U.S. Patent law (35 U.S.C § 101) says that any "new or useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter" can be patented. It makes far more sense to think of software code as a "new or useful process" than as an expression of creativity like music or writing.

You grant them a patent on the entire engine, and during the monopoly period people can't use the specific code from the engine. But when the patent expires, the whole thing is public domain. I'd analogize the code to a particular recipe in pharmaceuticals. Pfizer patents Viagra--in so doing they hand over the recipe to society, but nobody else can commercialize it. That doesn't stop others from accomplishing the same result with another recipe (see: Cialis). The code in the unreal engine seems to me like the chemical makeup, the recipe for Viagra.


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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2012, 01:16:34 pm »
*Sigh*

Anyway, I never suggested that someone could patent code itself . . .

As in, a person could not patent code itself, as a concept, as in, "I have a patent on code. Any person writing any software of any kind without a license is in violation of my patent."
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2012, 01:27:05 pm »
So what exactly at this point are you suggesting gets patented? At first it was the entire code, then it was an entire engine, then it became the code for a specific patentable feature. Now it is the innovative implementation or an outcome and I don't know if you are referring to the code or use of the concept alone.  ???

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2012, 01:43:18 pm »

Patents on software are on the algorithms.  Code itself does not get patented.  A description of an algorithm, method, architecture, or process within the software is submitted for patent.  If it were just the code or even a specific implementation of the code then you could circumvent a patent by rewriting the software in another language.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2012, 02:05:42 pm »

Patents on software are on the algorithms.  Code itself does not get patented.  A description of an algorithm, method, architecture, or process within the software is submitted for patent.  If it were just the code or even a specific implementation of the code then you could circumvent a patent by rewriting the software in another language.

I was wondering about about how code could even be transcripted to a patent application in any useful way, but that brings up an even better point.

Also, I understand a software patents are generally for software that serves a useful function. I always understood that games did not have a real utility to ever be considered for a patent on a whole. At least anything more than a specific feature used that could be useful to more than just that particular game engine.

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2012, 02:06:35 pm »
So what exactly at this point are you suggesting gets patented? At first it was the entire code, then it was an entire engine, then it became the code for a specific patentable feature. Now it is the innovative implementation or an outcome and I don't know if you are referring to the code or use of the concept alone.  ???

Is there a point to this? I really don't believe that my position is unclear. I can answer your question if you really want, but I'd primarily just answer it with quotes from my previous posts. I have the impression that you are pouncing on ambiguities in my posts that are not at all ambiguous in the context of our entire conversation, like you think this is some kind of rhetorical staring contest. I'm not trying to win here, honestly. Else, I would have balked at your, "Oh . . . it looks like we actually agreed with each other all along; it was all just a big misunderstanding," after your position on math and software in patents, and your reading of the relevant case law, had been shown to be incorrect. I was perfectly happy to leave it there until you brought it all back up this morning by saying that the problem all along was that I didn't properly explain myself. Not that you misunderstood various aspects of patent law or misread the controlling cases that you cited. But that I simply lacked clarity. It's silly.

But if your question is serious, I suppose I'm happy to oblige.


edit: typo
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 02:10:37 pm by shmokes »
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2012, 02:08:26 pm »

Patents on software are on the algorithms.  Code itself does not get patented.  A description of an algorithm, method, architecture, or process within the software is submitted for patent.  If it were just the code or even a specific implementation of the code then you could circumvent a patent by rewriting the software in another language.

Yes yes . . . the code is copyrighted. Which is a stupid. That's the WHOLE point. That is what started this entire conversation.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2012, 02:26:53 pm »
Maybe if you didn't change your stance every other post, you would make sense. I was under the impression that you were agreeing earlier that you didn't make your position clear initially. The whole part where you were agreeing with me that 99.9% of video games today have nothing to patent, I didn't really mean to point that this morning to put you down at all, I thought that you accepted we both made mistakes there. Sorry if that bruised your ego for me to lay it out there this morning.

That of course is a 180 of your initial point that game companies should patent their code as their secret recipes to their games. That game engines should be patented like viagra. Only an arrogant ---tallywhacker--- would think that they can make a statement like that and anyone who questions them must not understand patent or case law, but you would never do that, right?  ;)

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2012, 03:01:10 pm »
It's not even a 1 degree change in my position, let alone a reversal. My position is that code should be 100% uncopyrightable. Anything in it worth protecting should be patented. And in that case, yes, I think that Viagra makes a nice illustrative analogy. Viagra is a patented drug that causes erections. Cialis, released years later, is another drug that causes erections. There's another made by Bayer that does the same, but the name escapes me. All of these drugs do the same thing, and none of them violates each other's patents because they do it in different ways. Similarly, the Crysis engine and Unreal engine both accomplish many of the same things. If the creators of the Crysis engine believe that their method of producing whatever, ray tracing, is new and innovative, I think they should be granted a patent on it. Not a patent on ray tracing, but a patent on their method of ray tracing--sort of like Pfizer doesn't have a patent on erection production, but only a patent on their particular formula for producing erections. And yes, the code in my comparison is analogous to the recipe for Viagra. Their method is their code.

This has been my position all along. And it's a general position. I'm sure that in drafting actual software patent legislation there would be all kinds of caveats I haven't thought of that would have to be addressed. But in this discussion what I wrote above was my original position and it remains my position. Nothing's changed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:04:02 pm by shmokes »
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2012, 03:28:48 pm »
Vigo. Lawyers debate. I'm not saying shmokes doesn't have a point, nor a wish for resolution.

I don't know why ya all care about this anyways. You aren't the ones making law and such.
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shmokes

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2012, 03:30:51 pm »
We care what the laws are, and what they should be, because the laws apply to us.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2012, 03:48:25 pm »
We care what the laws are, and what they should be, because the laws apply to us when everybody is looking.

Fixt.   ;D

Vigo

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2012, 03:49:48 pm »
It's not even a 1 degree change in my position, let alone a reversal. My position is that code should be 100% uncopyrightable. Anything in it worth protecting should be patented. And in that case, yes, I think that Viagra makes a nice illustrative analogy. Viagra is a patented drug that causes erections. Cialis, released years later, is another drug that causes erections. There's another made by Bayer that does the same, but the name escapes me. All of these drugs do the same thing, and none of them violates each other's patents because they do it in different ways. Similarly, the Crysis engine and Unreal engine both accomplish many of the same things. If the creators of the Crysis engine believe that their method of producing whatever, ray tracing, is new and innovative, I think they should be granted a patent on it. Not a patent on ray tracing, but a patent on their method of ray tracing--sort of like Pfizer doesn't have a patent on erection production, but only a patent on their particular formula for producing erections. And yes, the code in my comparison is analogous to the recipe for Viagra. Their method is their code.

This has been my position all along. And it's a general position. I'm sure that in drafting actual software patent legislation there would be all kinds of caveats I haven't thought of that would have to be addressed. But in this discussion what I wrote above was my original position and it remains my position. Nothing's changed.

Your position may not have changed, but your explanation surely did. You previously never specified things like a "patent on their method of ray tracing" You made claims that simply stated that game makers should be able to patent the game code and cited the unreal engine as an example as something to patent. Had you pointed out clearly what you meant, then I wouldn't have been debating you.

Hence my this point this morning of you not being clear enough, and me assuming too much what you meant. From your broad statements you made in the beginning about patenting game code, it's not shocking that I thought you were talking about patenting video game code on a whole rather than a specific patentable method that may be created from within a video game engine.

shmokes

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2012, 05:55:56 pm »
Your position may not have changed, but your explanation surely did. You previously never specified things like a "patent on their method of ray tracing" You made claims that simply stated that game makers should be able to patent the game code and cited the unreal engine as an example as something to patent. Had you pointed out clearly what you meant, then I wouldn't have been debating you.

Hence my this point this morning of you not being clear enough, and me assuming too much what you meant. From your broad statements you made in the beginning about patenting game code, it's not shocking that I thought you were talking about patenting video game code on a whole rather than a specific patentable method that may be created from within a video game engine.

It doesn't make a difference to my argument whether you're patenting a paragraph of code or an entire 3D engine. A patent on a paragraph of code would probably be covered in one or two claims. A patent on an entire 3D engine would have to contain specific claims describing each inventive concept the applicant wished to patent. If one of the claims was invalidated for obviousness or prior art or lack of innovation, the rest of the patent would survive unless the other claims were dependent on the failed claim. In any case, our copyright system currently protects videogame code on a whole, regardless of innovation. That (and the duration of protection) is why I think code should not be copyrightable, and why this whole discussion was started.

Anyway, the bulk of our argument was about whether software and math could be patented at all.
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2012, 06:26:32 pm »
Ha, now you are arguing about your argument!  ;D (Don't stop, it is an interesting conversation)
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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2012, 06:52:52 pm »
 :dunno
Guy states he thinks video games should be patentable and acts surprised that I was pointing out why patents don't work that way.

I think I'll play some super punchout.


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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #90 on: July 19, 2012, 07:01:26 pm »
Theres too many hack n slash clones, realistic shooter clones, bland rpgs, real race simulators and rehashing of old crap. Also too many concerned with telling a complex story. a mediocre story is fine, we want gameplay to be fun. I couldnt care less about super realistic characters. I grew up on Atari 2600, NES and, Sega Genesis.  I enjoy the graphics but im not gonna cry about this dont look real.

shmokes

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Re: Why current age 'video gaming' is a joke
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2012, 07:38:51 pm »
Guy states he thinks video games should be patentable and acts surprised that I was pointing out why patents don't work that way.

I'm . . . pretty sure this never took place.
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