Mobile hotspot - Am I missing something?

[shmokes]

We just got my wife a new smartphone that comes with built-in mobile hotspot functionality. But AT&T charges $50/mo for this functionality. WTF? Am I missing something? As far as I can tell AT&T isn't DOING anything when I use my phone as a hotspot. My phone is handling all the routing and processing. I'm using capped data that I've already paid for. AT&T isn't providing any extra service whatsoever. Right?

I mean, I'd understand a douchey little nominal monthly fee, or an exorbitant/extortionate $30 one-time fee. But $50/mo and I don't get any extra data with that? I only pay $30/mo for the data package I'd be sharing with my iPad!

[Samstag]

Just wait till they add the porn surcharge.

[ark_ader]

Phone Wifi routing?  Are you serious?  You want to be careful doing that.  Especially with blue tooth.

You could be opening a huge can of worms doing that.  Anyone worth their salt of hacking knowledge can do horrible things with it.  Leave you with so much grief, that your post count would exceed 50K.

Not because you are stupid or irresponsible, but we are all fallible, and prone to forgetfulness.  With your luck some kid would probably war chalk you on the back at the mall.  

My Galaxy does that but I have to be really careful and quick when I enable it, but it doesn't cost me anything.  My tablet doesn't have 3G and I rarely share my data allowance with it.  I was without internet at home and I enabled it for 10 minutes maximum, but I change the password every time I turn it off.

But I am in the UK, and probably paid considerably more for my plan and phone than in the US.  But I would NEVER enable the wifi router on the phone in public.

I would avoid wifi routing at all costs unless you live in the sticks, or if it was for like 5 minutes.

$50 is a bit steep, but I'm glad you have to fork out for it.  I wish all carriers charged for that facility.  I would buy a cable if it was for a laptop.

I work for a very large mobile carrier (tech support) and we had a guy who had such a facility on his phone recently (actually we get calls like this every week).  He had a 500mb per month limit.  We charged £1 per mb if you go over.  
Somebody hacked his phone and downloaded some large files.  His bill was £3K or so, and he had to pay it.  We also had another guy who traveled to Egypt (a few years ago) and wanted to use the Satellite Data plan at £10 per MB and apparently his phone "locked up" and his bill was rather huge.  If you use a special data plan we have to unlock your account, so you can accrue lots of charges, otherwise you phone would stop and that would suck if you were in Egypt and had to use a public phone....  

I thought it very amusing especially with crappy phones of the day.  Not so funny now with the more capable phones of today.

Just wait till they add the porn surcharge.

Yeah that is another common complaint.  One guy (a lorry driver) subscribed to a porn site, and we charge for using the access and then pay the adult site whatever it is.  This dumb guy falls asleep and regardless if the phone is on or off keeps sending multimedia (porn) messages at £5 each text, like every minute until you text the site back with a stop command.  The guy had a heart attack when he got our bill.    "You play in the toilet...."

I like the excuses part of the call.  Makes my day.  

[shmokes]

The phone supports WPA2 encryption (as does your Galaxy). There's far less reason to be concerned about my mobile hotspot than the stationary WiFi network I have at home (also encrypted with WPA2).

And why do you wish all carriers charged for the "facility"? What exactly are they charging you for. It's like selling you a chair and then charging you extra if you want to prop the chair under a door knob to hold the door closed. It's retarded.

[ark_ader]

The phone supports WPA2 encryption (as does your Galaxy). There's far less reason to be concerned about my mobile hotspot than the stationary WiFi network I have at home (also encrypted with WPA2).

And why do you wish all carriers charged for the "facility"? What exactly are they charging you for. It's like selling you a chair and then charging you extra if you want to prop the chair under a door knob to hold the door closed. It's retarded.

I was going to comment about WPA2 and you are kind of right, but the hackers of today can break that pretty quickly.

Watch this:

I would advise not to go to this guys site, unless you want to get root kitted.  

I used to have all the hacking tools for Wifi when I worked for Fujitsu.  You had to keep up with the kiddies to do a proper risk assessment on the network.  VPN is toast too.

Under 4 minutes is pretty good, I use a pretty good key on mine, but can be hard to remember that is why most people keep it simple and bingo!  Heck in the old days our generic mobile account password was password....

It's like selling you a chair and then charging you extra if you want to prop the chair under a door knob to hold the door closed.

Now look at what you just typed.  You are complaining about using a device for something that it was not included in your contract.  Chairs are for sitting, but if you want to use it to stand on, that could incur an extra charge (you might exceed the chair's ability, capacity or added risk).  If you want to prop a door open, another charge, and so on.  I'm sure video calling is extra too, as is using VOIP.   

You are using the phone under your carrier's terms and conditions, regardless if the device does something that is not in your plan.  

It costs you $50 to turn on this feature?  Welcome to America.    

I do admit it sucks to be locked out of a feature or discriminated against and that is not fair.  Most of the time it is for your protection.

But we have fools out there who do stupid stuff, so charge them extra (for the paperwork) and let them exceed their usage plan and get raped on the charges.  Those guys make us money, and I like to work collections.

Boy do I wish I was your carrier customer service representative Jake.  The laughs we I would have....

[Ed_McCarron]

I was going to comment about WPA2 and you are kind of right, but the hackers of today can break that pretty quickly.

Sure.  And if you use a dictionary passphrase, you deserve to be hacked.

[shmokes]

Ark, your lack of capacity for basic reasoning is such a crackup. Are your online and real life personas at all similar? Because that would be sort of awesome.

[CheffoJeffo]

I was going to comment about WPA2 and you are kind of right, but the hackers of today can break that pretty quickly.

Sure.  And if you use a dictionary passphrase, you deserve to be hacked.

 

I am surprised by the $50 surcharge just for hotspotting ... I pay less than that, including data, for my portable LTE hotspot.

[Well Fed Games]

I work for a very large mobile carrier (tech support)

 His bill was £3K or so, and he had to pay it.

I thought it very amusing

... not sure if I would call that "support"...  Glad you're in the UK!

[ark_ader]

Ark, your lack of capacity for basic reasoning is such a crackup. Is your online and real life persona, at all similar? Because, that would be sort of awesome.

You are only upset, because you really don't know everything.  You would like to think you do, but you don't.  If you did you would not have enough time to rack up a 10K post count.

You are clever, and you have excellent communication skills, I'll give you that, but you always ruin all those merits with your ignorance.  I'm sure it is one of your goals to fix that ongoing problem.

p.s. I fixed your spelling mistake, punctuation, grammar, and tried to make sense of your diction. 

I work for a very large mobile carrier (tech support)

  His bill was £3K or so, and he had to pay it.

I thought it very amusing

... not sure if I would call that "support"...  Glad you're in the UK!

Damn right!  I worked for Sprint, while I was on summer vacation.  Totally black & white. 

Their customer support was appalling.  We might have a laugh now and then (it is a stressful job dealing with your crap) but being rude to customers is never acceptable.

[kahlid74]

I'm not a fan of calling people out but take Ark's comments with a grain of salt.  They aren't accurate.

As for the data tethering you're talking about mine is included in my data plan, but then again I've got the iPhone so there may be something special tied to that.  I get 5 GB and data tethering for $50/mo.  Have you tried seeing if you're employer gets a local discount?  When I took my wife's old iPhone 4 and added the data tethering I was not too pleased at the cost.  Then they checked and my employer gives me a 40% discount on all personal service and now my bill is less than it was before lol.

[shmokes]

p.s. I fixed your spelling mistake, punctuation, grammar, and tried to make sense of your diction.  

 

Nice try, Ark. And by nice I mean, LMAO

Okay, putting aside for a second the general asshattery of rewriting my post to correct my "spelling . . . , punctuation, grammar . . . , and diction," let's have a look. You turned this:

Are your online and real life personas at all similar? Because that would be sort of awesome.

Into this:

Is your online and real life persona, at all similar? Because, that would be sort of awesome.

I can detect no spelling correction whatsoever. What misspelled word did you correct?

Next I see that you've changed my "are" to "is" and changed "personas" into its singular form, "persona". So we're talking about subject/verb agreement. Let's check the rule (Strunk and White, 3rd edition): The number of the subject determines the number of the verb . . . . A compound subject formed of two or more nouns joined by and almost always requires a plural verb. The following illustrative example is provided: The walrus and the carpenter were walking close at hand. My sentenced contained a compound subject formed of two nouns joined by and (online and real life personas), and thus requires the plural verb "are".

You also inexplicably added a comma after the word "persona". This comma is so blatantly and laughably out of place as to require no explanation. It makes a previously readable sentence clumsy and confusing. Commas aren't like confetti or sprinkles, Ark.

And lastly, you added a comma following the "because" in my last sentence. The "because" in that sentence is a conjunction, joining two independent clauses ("Are your online and real life personas at all similar" and "that would be awesome"). Again, we can turn to Strunk and White for the rule (Rule 4, as it happens): Place a comma before a conjunction introducing an independent clause. [Emphasis mine]

Hence, if I had written the whole thing in a single sentence it would be, "Are your online and real life personas at all similar, because that would be sort of awesome," and not, "Are your online and real life personas at all similar, because, that would be sort of awesome." But since I separated it into two sentences, the comma before the conjunction is replaced by a period.

But best of all, who gives a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---? We're having an informal conversation. One of the sentences in my original post is, "WTF?" That sentence is not grammatical. Part of understanding the rules of grammar is knowing how to break them to good effect. Moreover, I make non-deliberate grammatical errors regularly enough. Just not in the sentences you attempted to deconstruct.

[Hoopz]

This thread is already making me wish for the "buttrock" thread to come back to life.   

[Le Chuck]

Not me, I'm starting to warm to this thread.  Keep it coming, I haven't been this entertained since lice that which shall not be named.

[Hoopz]

Not me, I'm starting to warm to this thread.  Keep it coming, I haven't been this entertained since lice that which shall not be named.

Bah, you're just collecting info for your "Worst thread of 2012 Award".   

[rooter]

We just got my wife a new smartphone that comes with built-in mobile hotspot functionality. But AT&T charges $50/mo for this functionality. WTF? Am I missing something? As far as I can tell AT&T isn't DOING anything when I use my phone as a hotspot. My phone is handling all the routing and processing. I'm using capped data that I've already paid for. AT&T isn't providing any extra service whatsoever. Right?

I mean, I'd understand a douchey little nominal monthly fee, or an exorbitant/extortionate $30 one-time fee. But $50/mo and I don't get any extra data with that? I only pay $30/mo for the data package I'd be sharing with my iPad!

I have an iPhone with AT&T.  It's an extra $30 a month to let your phone be a mobile hotspot.  This also includes doubling my data allowance from 2GB to 4GB.

[Green Giant]

Wow, you guys actually pay for the mobile tethering?

Well I am assuming your wife's new smartphone is android since you didn't say new iphone.  If that is the case, root it.

I rooted my incredible, and it is amazing what you can do.  There is a VERY FREE app that lets you create an encrypted mobile hotspot.  It used your phones wifi as the router and the 3G(doesn't have 4G) as the internet.  I turn it on and it sends out internet to anything that has my password.

I have to agree that it is ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- that they charge for a feature which is nothing more than an app.  A simple app at that which requires nothing more than root access on an android in order to piggyback on the data plan.

[shmokes]

I have an iPhone with AT&T.  It's an extra $30 a month to let your phone be a mobile hotspot.  This also includes doubling my data allowance from 2GB to 4GB.

That's interesting. Maybe the guy at the AT&T store misunderstood. He said that enabling the mobile hotspot functionality was $50/mo. I even clarified, "It's $50/mo on top of the $30/mo data package . . . so $80/mo for data if I want to use the phone as a hotspot?"

But after reading your post I did a google search which led to this page. The 2GB data plan doesn't exist anymore. You go straight from 300 mb for $20/mo to 3GB for $30/mo. And the 5GB plan is $50/mo.

In the fine print is the following line: 5GB data plan is required to enable mobile hotspot or tethering.

This suggests to me that maybe AT&T actually doesn't charge a monthly fee to enable hotspot, but rather only allows it on their $50/mo 5 GB plan. Which, while not ideal, is a damned site better than what the store employee said. I'm on the phone with AT&T now to clarify, but the guy I'm talking to seems borderline retarded, so we'll see if I come away with any updated info.

Edit: added quote

[shmokes]

Well I am assuming your wife's new smartphone is android since you didn't say new iphone. 

It's a Windows phone 7.5 (Mango). Specifically the Lumia 900. I haven't looked that much into whether Mango can be jailbroken or rooted or whatever it's called when it's a Windows phone, nor what capabilities that would open up. But my instincts are that the Android rooting community is far more robust than its Windows counterpart.

[shmokes]

Okay . . . I finally got a firm answer from AT&T. There is, in fact, no extra charge for mobile hotspot. But they only allow it on the top-tier 5 GB data plan. Hence, similar to what rooter said earlier, for $50 would give me not just mobile hot-spot functionality, but also more data. Actually, Rooter might want to have his plan re-evaluated if possible because the $50 plan today ought to be buying him 5 GB data per month rather than 4 GB.

It's still pretty lame that they arbitrarily won't let me use my phone as a mobile hot-spot with the 3 GB plan. The worst that might happen is that I'd go over my 3 GB data cap, which doesn't hurt AT&T at all . . . it just means I'd be paying overage charges. But that's just mildly annoying compared to the outrageous $50/mo surcharge for mobile hotspot on top of the regular data rates that the store employee described.

[Hoopz]

You realize that you had a firm answer before from the employee in the store too?  LOL.  Call back and get someone else and you'll get a 3rd answer.   

[shmokes]

Right, but the answer from the guy in the store made absolutely no sense (well except to the screwy marbles rolling around in Ark's head), hence my rant. This new firm answer jives with rooter's personal experience, and it also seems to jive with the official promotional material on AT&T's website.

[Le Chuck]

Enabling on my Iphone with Verizon seems to require a montly service fee but does come with an additional 2gb of data.  Still, the 20 or 30 a month it costs is a ripoff. 

[HaRuMaN]

Windows phone

Why?

[knave]

I was able to tether my Android Tablet to my phone with the PDAnet App.

I don't use it anymore...but I did it last summer to test out if it was possible. I will root my phone before I pay to tether.

[shmokes]

Windows phone

Why?

It is so much better. I have an iPad, and I've used iPhones. Windows Phone is a far and away superior user interface. And as far as aesthetics, neither iPhone nor Android (which is just an direct imitation of iPhone) are even playing in the same league. And that's important to my graphic designer wife. Honestly, she and I are as amazed as anyone that Microsoft would beat Apple in the graphic design department.

The one place where Android and iPhone have a huge advantage is apps. Windows phone has ~80,000 apps while both Android and iPhone have close to or in excess of 500,000 apps. This is important. There are some very problematic holes in the Windows Phone Marketplace. In particular, there's no Pandora, Audible, Dropbox, or Grocery IQ (though a beautiful official Audible app will be released any day now). Other options exist, like Slacker Radio instead of Pandora and a third party Boxfiles app to interface with Dropbox, but that's not as good as having the real thing. But, honestly, most of the major apps are there. For a power user there may be some more obscure, but nevertheless must-have, apps that are missing from the Windows Phone library, but for most people all the important apps are there complimenting the core apps.

Which brings me to the core apps, which are phenomenal. Everything from Mail to Messaging to Calendar are exceptionally designed, both in terms of beauty and UI functionality. The People Hub (Windows Phone's version of the contact list) is nothing short of revolutionary (and while I haven't actually seen it, I have the impression that Android ICS may be borrowing the idea). When my wife first got her new phone it automatically populated the People Hub with her Facebook friends and Gmail contacts. Since she has a bunch of Facebook friends that are, like, old high school acquaintances whom she doesn't care about, she told the phone not to show Facebook friends in her contact list. But the phone still pulls data from Facebook for everybody still in her contact list. So when she clicks on any given person, the main page that pops up shows the person's Facebook profile pic (unless she tells it to use a local pic or something from another service), and it shows any email addresses or phone numbers the person has, and gives you quick options to call, SMS, email, or chat with that person. A swipe to the left, though, will show that person's activity on social networks. Another swipe will show photos of that person (albums from the person's Facebook profile, photos they're tagged in--even if you've told your phone not to show Facebook friends in your contact list). And it is all extremely fast, seamless, intuitive and beautiful.

The People Hub is just one element of the UI. The live tiles on the home page are brilliant. The calendar app is excellent, and automatically populates from Google calendars, Facebook events, etc. The music software is excellent.

In short, I think that the core experience of Windows Phone, including all of the core apps (which includes Mobile Office, BTW), is WAY ahead of iOS and Android. The App gap is huge, but in my opinion it's not as big a deal as the numbers make it seem. About 99.999% of iOS and Android apps are utter garbage. Literally . . . if there are 500,000 iOS apps and only .001 of them are worthwhile, that means that there are 500 worthwhile apps available for iOS. That may actually be far too generous. But at 80,000 apps it's not so hard to imagine that a good portion of those 500 worthwhile apps are also available for Windows Phone--the most popular apps, of course, are the most likely apps to be ported over. It's also worth noting, for perspective, that Windows Phone has only been on the market since November 2010, or less than a year and a half ago. I think it took Android a lot longer than a year and a half to get up to 80,000 apps. And Microsoft is throwing dumptrucks full of money at developers right now to encourage faster app development for the platform. Microsoft is an OS company, and they can see as clear as the next person that for more and more of the public, people's phones are becoming their primary computing platform. Microsoft knows that it can't lose this race. And on top of all of that, Windows 8 for the desktop comes out this fall and it shares the Metro UI with Windows Phone. It's a spectacular UI and I think that people getting familiar with it (and possibly falling in love with it) on the desktop will drive sales of the mobile platform as well.

I was close to getting the Lumia 900 for myself, but there are still a couple limitations that held me back. First is that Microsoft currently limits the screen resolution to 800x400 on any Windows Phone device. Also Windows Phone is only compatible with single-core processors. Both of these shortcomings will be addressed this fall by Windows Phone 8. My wife was so sick of her stupid feature phone, that she wanted to upgrade now. She was planning on an iPhone, but I told her that I was going to go with Lumia, but decided to put off upgrading my phone till Windows 8 came out this fall. She was like, "You weren't going to get an iPhone?" So she went to the AT&T store and took checked out the Lumia and fell immediately in love with it. She took a lot of flak at work (design firm--everyone . . . every single one . . . has an iPhone). She just laughs at them and says, "Whatever, brand whore."

And so on, lol. Here's a video of the UI:

[shmokes]

I was able to tether my Android Tablet to my phone with the PDAnet App.

I don't use it anymore...but I did it last summer to test out if it was possible. I will root my phone before I pay to tether.

To be clear . . . there isn't necessarily a charge to tether on AT&T. It would cost me more because I am on the $30 3 GB/mo plan and they only offer tethering on the $50 5 GB/mo plan. But a lot of people are heavy data users and they are already on the 5 GB/mo plan. For them, tethering costs nothing more. No need to root or jailbreak. For all I know my wife will turn out to be a heavy user and we'll need to move her to the 5 GB/mo plan. This is our first data plan. We decided to sign up for the 3 GB plan to start and monitor her usage throughout the month. If it turns out that we need the extra data, we'll upgrade and then hotspot functionality will cost nothing extra. If the 3 GB is sufficient we won't upgrade, because the only purpose was to give internet access to our WiFi-only iPad when we're on the road, which would be nice, but it isn't any kind of priority--especially now that we have a nice smartphone with internet access.

[ark_ader]

I can detect no spelling correction whatsoever. What misspelled word did you correct?

I'm going to add a button on my cab. A Shmokes button. I can push that button as easy as pushing yours Jake.      

Windows phone

Why?

I still have my Windows 6.5 phone that does a pretty good job, even though M$ discontinued it.  It functions great as a GPS, and that is about it..

Tethering is a really bad idea, as is rooting your phone when still in contract.

The Windows 7 phones are getting better, and soon to eat into the android market.

[shmokes]

I can detect no spelling correction whatsoever. What misspelled word did you correct?

I'm going to add a button on my cab. A Shmokes button. I can push that button as easy as pushing yours Jake.      

Read: Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- . . . there wasn't anything misspelled after all.

[Samstag]

The one place where Android and iPhone have a huge advantage is apps. Windows phone has ~80,000 apps while both Android and iPhone have close to or in excess of 500,000 apps. This is important. There are some very problematic holes in the Windows Phone Marketplace. In particular, there's no Pandora, Audible, Dropbox, or Grocery IQ (though a beautiful official Audible app will be released any day now). Other options exist, like Slacker Radio instead of Pandora and a third party Boxfiles app to interface with Dropbox, but that's not as good as having the real thing. But, honestly, most of the major apps are there. For a power user there may be some more obscure, but nevertheless must-have, apps that are missing from the Windows Phone library, but for most people all the important apps are there complimenting the core apps.

Sounds like the android market of 2 years ago.  If MS can get some market share, the app developers will get on board.

[shmokes]

Oh yeah . . . I forgot to mention that Windows Phone 7 had no premium phones to show it off, but that appears to have changed with the Microsoft/Nokia alliance, as evidenced by the Lumia 900 (and the 800 in Europe last year). In terms of industrial design the only phone in existence that bests the Lumia is the iPhone 4/4s. And while the processor in the Lumia can't match specs with the dual-core chips in the newest Android, Windows Phone is an extremely efficient OS, so it feels every bit as nimble and responsive, if not more so, than the iPhone 4s and the current flagship Android devices.

So, basically, I'm fairly confident that Windows Phone will be successful.

[ark_ader]

I can detect no spelling correction whatsoever. What misspelled word did you correct?

I'm going to add a button on my cab. A Shmokes button. I can push that button as easy as pushing yours Jake.      

Read: Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- . . . there wasn't anything misspelled after all.

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

The one place where Android and iPhone have a huge advantage is apps. Windows phone has ~80,000 apps while both Android and iPhone have close to or in excess of 500,000 apps. This is important. There are some very problematic holes in the Windows Phone Marketplace. In particular, there's no Pandora, Audible, Dropbox, or Grocery IQ (though a beautiful official Audible app will be released any day now). Other options exist, like Slacker Radio instead of Pandora and a third party Boxfiles app to interface with Dropbox, but that's not as good as having the real thing. But, honestly, most of the major apps are there. For a power user there may be some more obscure, but nevertheless must-have, apps that are missing from the Windows Phone library, but for most people all the important apps are there complimenting the core apps.

Sounds like the android market of 2 years ago.  If MS can get some market share, the app developers will get on board.

It will be classic Microsoft catch up.  Throw enough money and cross your fingers.  It is the Internet Explorer debacle all over again.   

[Samstag]

It will be classic Microsoft catch up.  Throw enough money and cross your fingers.  It is the Internet Explorer debacle all over again.   

I don't think debacle means what you think it means.

[Le Chuck]

It will be classic Microsoft catch up.  Throw enough money and cross your fingers.  It is the Internet Explorer debacle all over again.   

I don't think debacle means what you think it means.

Don't cloud the discussion with research and facts!  Just fire off the first thing that sounds good, nobody fact checks around here anyway 

[Zero_Hour]

I'm not a fan of calling people out but take Ark's comments with a grain of salt.  They aren't accurate.

QFT

[shmokes]

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

MMM hmmm . . . like the other grammatical "corrections" you made to my post. Yeah . . . this one's gonna keep me up at night.

[hypernova]

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

Yeah...no...

Do you live in Bizarro world?  You did the opposite of "correcting".

[DaveMMR]

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

Yeah...no...

Do you live in Bizarro world?  You did the opposite of "correcting".

What is the opposite of "correcting"?  "Mistakening"?

[Le Chuck]

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

Yeah...no...

Do you live in Bizarro world?  You did the opposite of "correcting".

What is the opposite of "correcting"?  "Mistakening"?

Arc_adering

[ark_ader]

It will be classic Microsoft catch up.  Throw enough money and cross your fingers.  It is the Internet Explorer debacle all over again.   

I don't think debacle means what you think it means.

I mean debacle where the largest software company in the world misses the fact that the internet is the next big thing, and had to make a huge u-turn.

Or if you think IE is the market leader due to expert opinion........<link>

Same with Windows CE phones.  Another great disaster in the making.

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

MMM hmmm . . . like the other grammatical "corrections" you made to my post. Yeah . . . this one's gonna keep me up at night.

Give up so easily?  Keep looking.   

No I was right in correcting your post, but I will let you figure it out.  Take your time.  Think before you type.  Seriously.

Yeah...no...

Do you live in Bizarro world?  You did the opposite of "correcting".

What is the opposite of "correcting"?  "Mistakening"?

Arc_adering

What is Arc_adering?  A name for a new cab? 

Mistakening?  I'll leave that one up to you guys.

[Green Giant]

Tethering is a really bad idea, as is rooting your phone when still in contract.

The Windows 7 phones are getting better, and soon to eat into the android market.

Why is rooting bad?  It is freaking sweet.  I rooted my phone.  Verizon doesn't check for that nor do they know how.  I even jacked my phone up and had to send it in to get a new one.  Pretty much the only negative thing is when they sent it back it already had the new OS which made it impossible to root; however I haven't checked in a few months so I should be able to root it now.

FYI, rooting on an Android is a very very simple process and nothing like jailbreaking or whatever they call it on an iphone.  It is far less invasive.  You are simply unlocking the root directory of the phone for access.  Apps still can't gain root access unless you give them permission similar to giving administrative rights to modify some windows folders.

As for eating into the Android market, probably true.  Of the big three phone OS's out there, Android is hands down the most complicated while also being the most versatile.  There is nothing that Windows or iOS can do that Android can't do with more setup steps.  I know my parents have Android phones, but they probably use them to 10% of their capability.  A windows phone is probably in their future.

Being a tech guy, Android will always be the superior option to me.
One last thing, why is tethering bad?  It is as secure as your home router.

[kahlid74]

Verizon doesn't check for that nor do they know how.  

The only thing I'll say is don't assume this.  Just because they currently do nothing about it doesn't mean they're unaware of you doing it.  I've been involved in a lot of crazy builds in data centers with technology that makes the civil rights guy in me get goosebumps.

[shmokes]

It is as secure as your home router.

It's far more secure than your home router. Your home router sits in one spot, broadcasting to a particular geographical location indefinitely. Your phone moves all about town, and at any given time when you enable the hotspot it'll probably remain enabled for 1/2 an hour, maybe an hour, before you shut it off and go somewhere else. For someone to hack into your network they have to happen to be wherever you are whenever you decide to enable your mobile hotspot. And it has to be someone with the desire and the skill/tools to do the hacking. And even then they have to have time to brute force their way in. And it ain't going to be 4 minutes. Your passphrase isn't going to be "mercedes" or anything else in Websters. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to find the mobile hotspot in your phone requiring a complex password containing numbers or symbols or both. At any rate, breaking into your home router is an order of magnitude easier with its fixed broadcast range and always-on status. Ark, as usual, is just out of his depth.

[shmokes]

Give up so easily?  Keep looking.  

Every time I engage you I'm afflicted with slight pangs of guilt. I feel like I punched a petulant 12-year-old in the face or made fun of an extremely obnoxious kid in a wheelchair.



edit: grammar

[knave]

I've done quite a bit of reasearch on rooting android phones and it seems to be pretty straight forward. Plus its reversable. There is some risk of bricking your phone but reported cases seem rare.

I havn't really had a reason to root it yet but maybe someday.

I'm much more likely to root my 7" tablet. but again...it meets my needs.

[Trip]

I would not root or jailbreak to use wifi tethering on AT&T.  They are checking for wifi tetherers that do not have a wifi tether plan.

If you are grandfathered into an unlimited plan, they will remove you from that plan and put you on a limited plan with tethering for rooting and bypassing their security to use wifi tethering without your approval and then call you and tell you they did it.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/smart_phones/231300341

I am on Verizon though, so my iphone and galaxy nexus are both jailbroken/rooted and I tether like a mad man.

[Green Giant]

I would not root or jailbreak to use wifi tethering on AT&T.  They are checking for wifi tetherers that do not have a wifi tether plan.

If you are grandfathered into an unlimited plan, they will remove you from that plan and put you on a limited plan with tethering for rooting and bypassing their security to use wifi tethering without your approval and then call you and tell you they did it.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/smart_phones/231300341

I am on Verizon though, so my iphone and galaxy nexus are both jailbroken/rooted and I tether like a mad man.

They are checking for wifi tethers on jailbroken iphones.  Not Android.

Like I said before, they can't figure out if you are doing it on an Android unless you bring them your phone for them to check it.

I havn't really had a reason to root it yet but maybe someday.

Just off hand there are two amazing apps which are what inspired me to root mine in the first place.
One is the free wifi tethering.  The second is titanium backup.  It creates a perfect backup of everything on your phone onto your sd card.  Not a big picture backup but every individual app, phone setting, contact, etc.

The only thing I'll say is don't assume this.

I know for a fact that they can only check for a rooted phone if you physically bring them your rooted phone.  You can't even check for traces of a phone that has been unrooted.

It's far more secure than your home router.

Yeah I was going to say this actually.  When I use my tether I can immediately see who is attached to the network, but I never do this on my home network.

[RayB]

How exactly would the carrier detect that you're routing wifi through your phone anyways? Seems to me data you're phone is requesting is data your phone is requesting.  I've used iPhone's hotspot feature exactly 3 times. Just turn it on, it works. It's not something I pay for or get blocked. Maybe it's illegal in Canada for them to be so abitrary about the orgin of a data request.

[Trip]

They are checking for wifi tethers on jailbroken iphones.  Not Android.

Like I said before, they can't figure out if you are doing it on an Android unless you bring them your phone for them to check it.

They can figure it out, just requires them to spend a little more money.  iphone free wifi tether apps are easy and cheap for them to figure out becauce they use different APNs to tether.  The newer version of PDAnet has a hide option to keep the APN the same though.  Basically what Android wifi tether apps do, if AT&T gets bored of cracking down on just the lazy iphone users, they can easily go to scanning for packets and bust you guys too.  Requires a little more money though, so they may or may not g o this route.

[kahlid74]

The only thing I'll say is don't assume this.

I know for a fact that they can only check for a rooted phone if you physically bring them your rooted phone.  You can't even check for traces of a phone that has been unrooted.

I'm not going to go super deep into this because it's not my specialty but I've built out enough data centers to be familiar with the technology and capable of utilizing it to understand traffic flows and identify malicious/unwanted activity.  You don't check for a phone that's been rooted, you check for the presence of computer browsing or of browsing on a level that is higher than what you would expect from a phone.  It would be the idea of heuristics and behavioral engineering.  One of the ways this can be done is using DPI to examine who/what is reading the packets.  Browser/OS information is easy to extract from packets even if you're using SSL.

I've been inside of many data center including Verizon and AT&T.  They both have several iterations of DPI not including the NSA dark rooms.  If Verizon wants to crack down on tethering they can do so.  The idea that they can't because they currently don't is security theater.

[knave]

I was surprised to hear about the all the tethering emails and threats to auto switch by AT&T. Looking into it further it looks like they can tell pretty easily for android phones too. They count the hops data packets take from your end device to their routers. If your phone is 10 hops away usually and you are sending packets from 11 hops then they know you have another device in the mix.

I don't know if it's true or not but some folks were complaining that AT&T was even counting plugging in a stereo was being called tethering by AT&T.

Fortunatly for me I'm more than happy to stick to Wifi. I pay $15 for data on AT&T and am happy there.

[ark_ader]

Give up so easily?  Keep looking.  

Every time I engage you I'm afflicted with slight pangs of guilt. I feel like I punched a petulant 12-year-old in the face or made fun of an extremely obnoxious kid in a wheelchair.



edit: grammar

I'm not interested in your past behavior.

You are changing the subject, which can only mean...   

[ark_ader]

Tethering is a really bad idea, as is rooting your phone when still in contract.

The Windows 7 phones are getting better, and soon to eat into the android market.

Why is rooting bad?  It is freaking sweet.  I rooted my phone.  Verizon doesn't check for that nor do they know how.  I even jacked my phone up and had to send it in to get a new one.  Pretty much the only negative thing is when they sent it back it already had the new OS which made it impossible to root; however I haven't checked in a few months so I should be able to root it now.

FYI, rooting on an Android is a very very simple process and nothing like jailbreaking or whatever they call it on an iphone.  It is far less invasive.  You are simply unlocking the root directory of the phone for access.  Apps still can't gain root access unless you give them permission similar to giving administrative rights to modify some windows folders.

As for eating into the Android market, probably true.  Of the big three phone OS's out there, Android is hands down the most complicated while also being the most versatile.  There is nothing that Windows or iOS can do that Android can't do with more setup steps.  I know my parents have Android phones, but they probably use them to 10% of their capability.  A windows phone is probably in their future.

Being a tech guy, Android will always be the superior option to me.
One last thing, why is tethering bad?  It is as secure as your home router.

Rooting on Android devices and you will think I am being hypocritical here...that it is fine on devices that are not carrier subscription (3G for example) based, but on devices like tablets that have only wifi.

My Hannspad has a sucky stock rom, but I rooted the device and put a LG990 ROM that supports the Tegra2 hardware in the Tablet.  So I can play games and do useful stuff like Netflix, Lovefilm and BB iPlayer.  I use my device for study, so it is great that I have access to under clock, thus having a longer battery, etc.  I'm finding out that I will have to move to ICS once we have a stable build, and a rooted device is a requirement.

Rooting phones is not a good idea, as some apps out there can take advantage of a rooted device, and cause all kinds of problems.  This is well documented.  Also you would be breaking the T&Cs of your contract, which could get you into trouble.  Like I said about Shmokes wanting to use the tethering, again it is a bad idea.  But he is a clever fellow, and I am sure he will refrain from using a dumb WPA2 key.  The rest of the population...who knows.  I still get calls from people getting their phones hacked.  You would be surprised how much trust people invest in their personal devices...  

Is your home router secure?  Are you sure about that?  You just don't have anyone local hacking you....yet.     I keep a password list and change it every month just to be sure, and I also have an Heterogeneous NT4 server box that gives some added protection.   Not enough to keep a determined individual out though.

So if you still want to root your phone, well it is your responsibility at the end of the day.

[kahlid74]

I was surprised to hear about the all the tethering emails and threats to auto switch by AT&T. Looking into it further it looks like they can tell pretty easily for android phones too. They count the hops data packets take from your end device to their routers. If your phone is 10 hops away usually and you are sending packets from 11 hops then they know you have another device in the mix.

Without diving too deeply into this yes it's possible but not reliable.  Hop count was all the rage in the 90's.  Since then we've created and use protocols that are much faster/stronger/smarter and are hop agnostic.  Every carrier is different and if they use hop count it's their call.  As having been in the trenches in many of these situations I would look to hop count after using several other tools first.

Rooting phones is not a good idea, as some apps out there can take advantage of a rooted device, and cause all kinds of problems.  This is well documented.  Also you would be breaking the T&Cs of your contract, which could get you into trouble.  Like I said about Shmokes wanting to use the tethering, again it is a bad idea.  But he is a clever fellow, and I am sure he will refrain from using a dumb WPA2 key.  The rest of the population...who knows.  I still get calls from people getting their phones hacked.  You would be surprised how much trust people invest in their personal devices...  

Is your home router secure?  Are you sure about that?  You just don't have anyone local hacking you....yet.     I keep a password list and change it every month just to be sure, and I also have an Heterogeneous NT4 server box that gives some added protection.   Not enough to keep a determined individual out though.

So if you still want to root your phone, well it is your responsibility at the end of the day.

Yeap, it's the responsibility of the person who roots it.  My experience has been that with individuals who are smart enough to root it, they are smart enough to protect it.

I think you've read a little bit too much into CNN or Fox news reports about hacking Wifi.  Hacking wireless in general requires gathering over the air packets.  Hacking WPA and attempting to hack WPA2 requires gathering a lot over the air packets (days and weeks worth) and you're still brute forcing based on rainbow tables and dictionaries.  Maybe it's been a while since I delved into the air cracking world but WPA/WPA2 aren't WEP.  They don't have a clear "crack" known.  They focus around inefficiencies in the algorithms that allow said rainbow tables and dictionary attacks to be more accurate but they are still a brute force guessing game.  If you're using WEP well yeah, then you'll be hacked mighty quick.

Also, NT4?  What is this, the 90's?  Did you mean Server 2008 or 2003?  I don't live in the Windows world very often anymore but come on, really?  You're talking about wireless being insecure and you're using a server that hasn't been patched in years?

[Ed_McCarron]

I havn't really had a reason to root it yet but maybe someday.

Installing your antitheft stuff as root lets you do a few things...  Avast, for example, lets you not only install as root (so it can turn on the GPS, wipe the phone,etc), it lets you reflash the bootloader so that even if someone pulls the SIM or does a hard reset, it'll reload itself.

For example, someone finds my phone, turns it off, puts in a prepaid sim card (with a new number) and does a factory reset.

10 minutes later, Avast has reinstalled itself, locked the phone, and SMS'd me the new number and location.

Can't do tricks like that if it's not rooted.

[Grasshopper]

Tethering is a really bad idea, as is rooting your phone when still in contract.

The Windows 7 phones are getting better, and soon to eat into the android market.

Why is rooting bad?  It is freaking sweet.  I rooted my phone.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I simply will not buy phones, and other similar devices, that can't easily be rooted. I don't think anybody in their right mind would buy a PC with Windows pre-installed, and administrator access rights disabled. So why should it be any different with a phone?

What really irritates me about manufacturers attempting to lock down their devices it that they pretend it's to protect customers, when in reality, it's done mostly for self-serving reasons.

[Grasshopper]

The only thing I'll say is don't assume this.

I know for a fact that they can only check for a rooted phone if you physically bring them your rooted phone.  You can't even check for traces of a phone that has been unrooted.

I'm not going to go super deep into this because it's not my specialty but I've built out enough data centers to be familiar with the technology and capable of utilizing it to understand traffic flows and identify malicious/unwanted activity.  You don't check for a phone that's been rooted, you check for the presence of computer browsing or of browsing on a level that is higher than what you would expect from a phone.  It would be the idea of heuristics and behavioral engineering.  One of the ways this can be done is using DPI to examine who/what is reading the packets.  Browser/OS information is easy to extract from packets even if you're using SSL.

I've been inside of many data center including Verizon and AT&T.  They both have several iterations of DPI not including the NSA dark rooms.  If Verizon wants to crack down on tethering they can do so.  The idea that they can't because they currently don't is security theater.

Hmm. Maybe, but I think the risk of getting caught is very low. For a start, what about plausible deniability? They may strongly suspect that you've rooted your phone or done something else not permitted in their T&Cs, but that's not the same as being able to prove it. Even if they can prove it they probably don't want to reveal to their customers the snooping technology they have at their disposal.

IANAL, but I'd imagine that a company can't just get away with unilaterally changing the terms of a contract they have with a customer, unless they have very clear cut evidence that the customer has breached the terms & conditions of the contract. That sort of behaviour sounds like a class action just waiting to happen.

[ark_ader]

Tethering is a really bad idea, as is rooting your phone when still in contract.

The Windows 7 phones are getting better, and soon to eat into the android market.

Why is rooting bad?  It is freaking sweet.  I rooted my phone.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I simply will not buy phones, and other similar devices, that can't easily be rooted. I don't think anybody in their right mind would buy a PC with Windows pre-installed, and administrator access rights disabled. So why should it be any different with a phone?

What really irritates me about manufacturers attempting to lock down their devices it that they pretend it's to protect customers, when in reality, it's done mostly for self-serving reasons.

True, nobody would buy a PC that was pre-installed with something you cannot afford to get rid of.....MAC OSX 

Besides the PC you mentioned doesn't come with a live network.  A live network that can be misused with applications you install in the course of the life of the PC that takes interest in your unsecured network.  Yes it does sound like a Windows, doesn't it?   

I agree with your comment just the same.