Gamecube price drop

[SNAAAKE]

EVERYONE GET A GAMECUBE....NOW ! !
because you MUST play this game right here ! !

 

btw,GC is only $70 when you buy a game.

[vitaflo]

I just don't see how people can honestly look at the market now, analyze the future offerings for the next year and still claim the GC is going to be a contender.

What does it mean to be a "contender"?  Scrapping with Sony?  Sorry, but neither MS nor Nintendo will do that.  Both MS and Nintendo will fight for 2nd place the rest of this generation, while Sony sells 5 times what they do.  The Xbox and GC aren't going anywhere, up or down.

[DaveMMR]

EVERYONE GET A GAMECUBE....NOW ! !
because you MUST play this game right here ! !

 

btw,GC is only $70 when you buy a game.

Ho, ho my heart is beating in anticipation for that (even if I do know the whole story).   I'm kinda wondering what cool things Psycho Mantis is going to do with the cube.

[jakejake28]

I just don't see how people can honestly look at the market now, analyze the future offerings for the next year and still claim the GC is going to be a contender.

i haave gc and xbox, and can honestly say my gc has more play time than the 'box. metroid, zelda, animal crossing,  w. viewtiful joe, mario kart, and twin snakes coming out seems like its fairly secure. my box is good for halo and mgs2:substance, but thats where it really ends.

ah, who cares. if your only looking towards future offerings mebbe xbox is better, but i prefer to play quality games now!

oh yeah, halo 2 and fable are gonna rock, that is, if they are ever released

[shmokes]

Okay, I understand now Frosty.  You never mentioned anything about Spawn in Soul Caliber.  You just asked why one would want to be a little elf when they could be Spawn.  I agree. Strictly comparing Link and Spawn I must concede that Spawn is the more compelling character.  Unfortunately he has never been in the care of Nintendo, or another developer/publisher that could turn a compelling character into a compelling game.    Still, I'm not so sure about the apples and oranges comment.  Spawn, Hulk, and Superman:  All comic books.  All have multiple video game treatments to their credit.  All of these videogames suck (with the exception of Atari 2600 Superman)   .  Still, this is important.  It doesn't say much when a character's only good appearance in a game is nothing more than a gimmicky cameo in a fighter.  That is not meant as a stab at Spawn, but rather a testament to Nintendo's skill.  Over and over again they take this wimpy little elf and create a game around him that is light-years ahead of anything any other developer has been able to manage even when working with something as cool as Spawn.

Personally i don't see what's so great about Twin Snakes, though.  lt's not like it's a remake of the original NES Metal Gear.  Metal Gear Solid is only a few years old!  If you want to replay it just pop the disc into your ps2 and play.

Anyway, it's a steal. You're missing out.  

edit: Oh yeah, speaking of apples and oranges , l agree that Gamecube did not match x-box in specs despite being released at the exact same time.   Fortunately it debuted at $200 instead of the $300 x-box price point.

[SirPoonga]

Well, I think Nintendo choked themselves with the cube.  It doesn't stand up to today's standards in consoles.  Need to have at least audio cd capability.  I usually play a CD in the PS2 while playing the cube, but I can't do vica versa!!!!!

Also the 3.5" disc is annoying more than anything.  I'm sure it is limiting to developers too.  

[shmokes]

Well, I think Nintendo choked themselves with the cube.  It doesn't stand up to today's standards in consoles.  Need to have at least audio cd capability.  I usually play a CD in the PS2 while playing the cube, but I can't do vica versa!!!!!

Also the 3.5" disc is annoying more than anything.  I'm sure it is limiting to developers too.  

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I must remind you that Gamecube is superior to PS2, the current market leader by about a million miles, in virtually every way.  The only thing the PS2 has on Gamecube is the ability to play DVD's and CD's, both of which are quite periphery considering that DVD players are the fastest selling piece of consumer electronics in history and pretty much everybody in America already has one or five in their homes.  Sure 5" DVD's have more storage capacity than Gamecube, but when have you seen them have to strip a game down in order to port it to the Gamecube?

The only problem Nintendo has, and in a way it extends to their hardware, aesthetically anyway, is a history of appealing to a younger demographic.  

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, but features is what makes a console good too.

Sure 5" DVD's have more storage capacity than Gamecube, but when have you seen them have to strip a game down in order to port it to the Gamecube?

Yes

[shmokes]

Yes

I have no response to that  

[SirPoonga]

Hehe.  I'm sure a game wasn't developed the way a developer wanted because they had plans to put it on the cube along with other systems.  I've heard of games like this.  I just can't name any off hand.

I'm not saying the cube is a bad system, just they could have done alot better.  I have a cube.  I love it.  But I prefer my DC over it in functionality.

[Frostillicus]

I was reading the older posts and ok it sounds like a bit of Nintendo bashing on my part.  Rough week blah blah.  Apologies all around...

*sigh* Somehow I've gotten a Game Informer subscription (zuh??) and in their latest one they list The Wind Walker the best modern console game ever (out of 50).  Anyone else see this?  Halo was #3.  I forget what was 2.  



 

[vitaflo]

Also the 3.5" disc is annoying more than anything.  I'm sure it is limiting to developers too.  

Well if they need more room, they can always add a second disk.  Resident Evil did this.  Since there were PS1 games that were on 4 discs, I don't really see it as being a problem.

With that said there are stupid devs that don't know how to optimize for the smaller discs.  NFL2k3 and Skies of Arcadia had sound that was more compressed than their counterparts.  But for 99% of the games the space isn't a problem.

One other thing the smaller disks do is give almost instant access time.  There are virtually no loading screans on the GC.  A game like Metroid Prime couldn't be done the same way on Xbox or PS2 because of the fast loads times on GC.

I also think you overestimate the importance of CD out on the other systems.  I think there's a case for DVD playback, but certainly not CD out.  That's not a consideration people take into account when buying a system.

[SirPoonga]

Wow, you work for Nintendo.  That's a load of marketting BS!  

Smaller discs do not mean faster load times.  Of course you can use current games as exaamples that the disc size is big enough.  But you weren't in any meatings for that company discussing on how to limit the game to fit on the disc!  That format makes it tougher for developers, not end users.

Multiple discs work great for story based games.  But for other genres it just isn't possible.  Plus multiple discs are extremely annoying.

Maybe playing a CD isn't important to you.  But I know many people who complain that they wish the cube would play CDs, including me.

[hooded_paladin]

they do not necessarily load data faster, but load times aren't ever very long at all for most cube games.  Nintendo does a good job of keeping down load times, for the most part.

[SirPoonga]

Right, Nintendo is good at load times, but it's not due to the CD size.

[vitaflo]

Wow, you work for Nintendo.  That's a load of marketting BS!  

Smaller discs do not mean faster load times.  Of course you can use current games as exaamples that the disc size is big enough.  But you weren't in any meatings for that company discussing on how to limit the game to fit on the disc!  That format makes it tougher for developers, not end users.

No, I don't work for Nintendo, but I used to be a journalist in the industry, and have several friends who are developers and artists for Sega, Activision and Squaresoft (now Square Enix).  The only time I have ever heard about space problems on GC is when people want to use a lot of FMV, or there is a rather large musical score.  Usually it just doesn't come up.  Most PS2 games would fit on a GC disc actually.

And smaller discs do in fact mean faster load times.  A smaller disc has a much lower seek time than a larger disc, thus on average the load times are faster.  But don't take my word for it, ask any game dev.  This isn't the only thing that makes load times fast of course, but it does contribute to it.

And if you think I'm biased towards Nintendo, try badmouthing Xbox or PS2 sometime.  

[SirPoonga]

No, a smaller disc just means smaller amounts of data can be stored.  Not on load time.  Load time is based on on the drive, not the disc.  As long as the drive of a small disc spins as fast as a drive of a large disc the load times are going to be the same.

Think about it.  Yes, most games probably don't need that much space.  Like I said, basically the story based games need that much space.  

So let's take the same physical amount of data, say enough spirals to go 1" from center.  If the CD spins the same rate for either size data will be read in at the same speed.  Don't think that me putting 30 megs of data onto 3.5" will load faster on my computer cdrom drive that supports the small disc than having that same 30meg on an 80meg disc.  It's the spin rate of the drive that determine read speed.  Hence the whole 1x, 2x,....52x speed drives.  Disc size has nothing to do with it other than maximun amount of data that can be stored.

Don't take my word for it, ask any cd hardware engineer.  I could walk over to Imation and get you a report if you want  Ok, Imation is in White Bear on the north side of Saint Paul, I'd have to drive from Minneapolis  But I know people who work there.

Again, I'm not againt the cube as so much as showing why it doesn;t compete.  And I have to provide this imformation in this post to show the true fact since you got delusional somewhere aobut disc size helps determines speed.

[hooded_paladin]

he is right about seek time

although I'm not an expert, read speed would be determined by how fast the disc can spin and how dense the data is, but seek speed is mostly reliant on the diameter of the disc and the speed at which the laser + lens assembly moves.

If the speed of the laser + lens assembly is comparable, the Gamecube has faster seek time.

But seek time isn't a big deal anyway.  It's a game disc, not a PC.  The data shouldn't be fragmented or loaded often.

[vitaflo]

So let's take the same physical amount of data, say enough spirals to go 1" from center.  If the CD spins the same rate for either size data will be read in at the same speed.  Don't think that me putting 30 megs of data onto 3.5" will load faster on my computer cdrom drive that supports the small disc than having that same 30meg on an 80meg disc.  It's the spin rate of the drive that determine read speed.  Hence the whole 1x, 2x,....52x speed drives.  Disc size has nothing to do with it other than maximun amount of data that can be stored.

Don't take my word for it, ask any cd hardware engineer.  I could walk over to Imation and get you a report if you want  Ok, Imation is in White Bear on the north side of Saint Paul, I'd have to drive from Minneapolis  But I know people who work there.

You're totally right about the speed in reading, all things being equal.  But this is basically true only if the data is all in one spot on the disc.  If the laser has to move, this slows down seek time the further it has to travel.  Listen to a PS2 sometime when it's loading info, you can hear the laser move quite a bit (depending on the game).

Of course converse to this is that data at the outside of the disc can be read faster than on the inside, because at a constant speed, the ouside of a disc is "traveling" faster than the inside, and there's more information to read.  Thus one could say that in certain situations the bigger discs could have a faster access.  This is another trick that Nintendo uses, they read their disks from the outside in, instead of inside out like a CD player.  I believe the Xbox does the same.  Not sure about Playstation.

I'm not trying to get into an arguement or anything, I'm just saying what I've been told from people who have made games for the GC, and what I know about CD tech from my past experience.  If the guys at Imation say I'm wrong I'll gladly retract my statement.  To be fair, I'm basically talking about seek/access time.  I know the actually data rate load speads are pretty much the same on all the consoles.  I think I mixed the word access and load together in one of my previous posts, so sorry if that confused anyone.

Funny you meantion Imation by the way, I used to work there about 5 years ago.  I didn't know you lived in Minneapolis.  Know any good places around here selling used arcade games (I'm in Maple Grove)?  

[shmokes]

I could be full of crap here, but here are a couple of purely theoretical things I'll put on the table that I'm pretty much just pulling out of thin air:

1- All things being equal (which they very well may not be) the Gamecube disc would spin faster than the 5" disc simply because it's smaller.  I mean, simply, that it takes less energy to spin a 3.5" disc than a 5" disc so it would be ultimately be possible to make a faster spinning 3.5" drive than a 5" drive.  I suspect that, when other factors are included into the equation this advantage becomes moot, but I digress...

2- Also, and this seems somewhat more plausible to me, though maybe imperceptible, the Gamecube disc should, given the same amount of energy, spin up faster than either of the others.

I'm not sure why I'm even throwing those out since I lean toward neither of them making any appreciable difference, but I don't know...one thing I do know is that Metroid is, for all intents and purposes, one gigantic level.  There is no (edit: intrusive) loading whatsoever, not before you get to the title screen, not between areas in the game; it is massive.  It probably has more to do with extremely talented developers than the hardware, but who knows.  The Soul Reaver games kind of pulled this off for the dreamcast, though not as well, and it has a 5" disc.

Whether it's the hardware or aa bunch of software coincidences, though, load times are generally (but maybe not always) lower (or non-existant) for Gamecube games, especially gamecube exclusive titles, than for their X-box or Playstation counterparts (or similar games for those platforms where Gamecube exclusive titles are being compared).

I got thinking, though, and one place where the size of the disc might prove important (or should be important if Nintendo hadn't skimped on sound hardware) is with 5.1 surround sound.  Even if Nintendo had seen fit to include dolby digital hardware the 1.5gb disc might prove somewhat limiting.  Pro Logic II is surprisingly robust, but it's ain't DD 5.1.

Maybe the disc capacity still would be fine, though.  How many PC games have you seen that were released on more than two CD's (slightly less capacity than a GC disc)?  A few adventure games or RPG's.  That's just about it.  I think capacity for the gamecube discs is mostly a non-issue.  I really like them.  I have a CD wallet for gamecube games and it's a little smaller than a fat-boy ice creame sandwhich.  Kinda cool.  

[SirPoonga]

Ok, enough about the CD sizes

Doesn't make that big of a difference:)  I just wanted to note that the smaller size will limit what someone wants to do if they want to make something for all platforms.  Once in awhile a developer will make a seperate build for another machine (like splinter cell) if the company has the money to maintain that.

With all said an done, the gamecube is a very good system.  It just is trying to compete in a market it is not designed for.


Yes,being able to play an audio CD could be a deciding factor.  Though with the price now not as much as one.  Who's the target market for any console?  low to mid 20s.  The cube is designed for kids.  Either way look at who is going to be buying the systems.  Parents or college kids.  Both of which don;t want to spend that much money.  And for college kids dorm space is a premium.  Having something do more than one thing at once is highly valued.  My system watches tv, dvds, listen to music, everything on her computer.  It has a 21" monitor which is great for an all in one system in a dorm room.  She wants a dedicated dvd player and a TV sometime but doesn't have the room.  Now think about the dorm kid who plays console games.  Having something that does it all will out sell anything else.  That's partially why the xbox and ps2 do better than the cube.  It's knowing who the target market is and designing the system for that market.

The cube is designed for kids and it shows.  It has limited features compared to the systems designed for the main gaming community.  It doesn't make it bad, it just means they shouldn't compare themselves to the other systems because they are not targetted to the same audience.

[Frostillicus]

The cube is designed for kids and it shows.  It has limited features compared to the systems designed for the main gaming community.  It doesn't make it bad, it just means they shouldn't compare themselves to the other systems because they are not targetted to the same audience.

What he said.

And about the CD/spin speeds - If you take 2 discs, one 3.5in wide, another 5 in wide, and get them spinning at the same RPM's, the bigger disc will obviously be moving at a higher velocity the further you get to the edge.  More area for the disc to travel compared to the 3.5in.   I don't know the precise theories behind CD/DVD readers and compensating read speed in relation to the location on the disc (because the disc is travelling much slower near the center...)  

Now what does this have to do with the previous discussion?  I don't know.  Just felt like throwing some of the last bits from my college days out there before it evaporated completely in a haze of malted hops.

[vitaflo]

That's partially why the xbox and ps2 do better than the cube.  It's knowing who the target market is and designing the system for that market.

I think all 3 systems are designed for their market and do a good job with their market.  As you said the cube skews younger, thus it's parents buying the console a lot of the times, and most parents are more concerned about price than performance or games.  I think Nintendo knows their audience well.  And as you said, so do MS and Sony with the kids in the dorms, etc.

I also agree it's hard to compare, based on the relative market each is trying to go after.

[DaveMMR]

There is no (edit: intrusive) loading whatsoever, not before you get to the title screen, not between areas in the game; it is massive

I just noticed you edited it to "Intrusive" because I was about to say that there is loading in between levels.  If you ever notice a door hesitating slightly before opening, that's the system loading.   I think it happens during the elevator sequences as well.    But still... a great number on GC games load quite well.

And speaking of disc size, there was one game that was released for all systems that had to be split between two discs for the GC (I think it was Enter the Matrix).   I think having to switch discs is the least of ETM's problems anyway.

[Edgedamage]

It comes down to this if the console you own makes you happy then who cares what anyone else thinks. I have owned a dreamcast / SNES / genesis with cdrom / ps1 / ps2 / cube / gameboy / GBA / intellivision. Would like a xbox but am too cheap. They are all fun and each has big fan base. In a perfect world consoles would be like DVD players all made to do the same thing so the gaming companys could just make games. Not sink millions into r&d into a console that has a shelf life of a few years. I think sega has the right idea make games for everyone else and not make hardware.
PS. I found a NES in the trash yesterday it works great and it was one of the few consoles I did not own.

[SuperBoB2Turbo]

I personally don't understand why so many people care who's "winning the console wars." As long as Nintendo keeps making a profit (and they're pretty good at doing that) I'm kind of glad they're NOT in first place, because that means whenever they release another one of their GREAT games, I can mosey on down to the store and pick it up, not worring about reserving a copy or them being sold out.  What do I care if the majority of gamers are idiots and are missing out on some of the best video games made.

I think what you're seeing is the video game industry becoming more like the entertainment industry, in more than just financial size.  Most of the "main-stream blockbuster must see" shows and movies are CRAP.  It's in the lesser known television and movies that you find the real great ones--like MST3K.

jus' my 2 cents.

[zero-one]

In the past 7 years I've noticed a strange parallel between the success of a console and the ease in which games can copied (or the console mod-chipped).

Take the N64 vs PS1 - PS1 wins by a long shot. It was very easy and relatively inexpensive to buy a modchip for the PS1 and make copies on CD-Rs. I haven't heard anyone make cartridge backups but I'm sure it can be done.

Take the current race, GC vs PS2 vs XBox. From what I've read the PS2 is the easiest to modchip and recordable DVDs are becoming cheap. The PS2 has the biggest market share. Conversely, the GC makes it next to impossible to make backups of the games and it has the lowest market share.

Sony seems to win by tolerating some amount of piracy where the others have clamped down. I find it a strange coincidence.  

I'm sure the buyers of consoles have considered the ease of copying games as one of the factors in deciding which console to buy. Maybe Sony understands that and they put just enough copy protection to satisfy the 3rd party publishers. Not a thought.

I want a GC.

[shmokes]

My gut tells me that this is a case of correlation NOT being the same as causation.  I haven't modded any system, but I figure that with the Xbox's harddrive it's easier to pirate games for the Xbox than the PS2 since it can be done right on the console.

Really of the 70 or 100 million or whatever the insane number of PS2 owners is at now...of all those people I'll bet that less than .5% of them have modded their hardware for any reason, whether it be to steal games or to play imports.  

The scenario I find far more likely is exactly the opposite.  70 million or 100 million or whatever people own PS2's versus like 15 million for the next leading competitor.  As someone who wants to research and develop modification hardware, which platform are you more likely to spend time and money cracking?  Obviously the one with the larger userbase so you will potentially sell more mod chips.  The PS2 probably has the most people figuring out ways around its copy protection because it is so successful, rather than being very successful because people are circumventing the copy protections.

Just my gut feeling...

[SirPoonga]

From what I've read the PS2 is the easiest to modchip and recordable DVDs are becoming cheap.

I've read the ps2 is difficult to get hacked stuff going.

I know the xbox is pretty simple. It's basicalyl PC hardware

[zero-one]

I must agree with shmokes - most likely modchip development is based on market size. I just was having a little fun with a different point of view.

On the other hand... Most of the console gamers that I've worked with in the last 7 years have had modded machines. Maybe people working at software development companies are more apt to pirate games. My perception must be warped. Or maybe I was just hanging with the wrong crowd.  

I hope to get a GC for Christmas now that it's within the price limit for your family's gift exhange.

[grafixmonkey]

As of today Gamecubes are $99.  There may not be many games for this system, but a lot of must-haves.  That price is worth it for Ikaruga, Soul Caliber, Metroid, Eternal Darkness and Zelda alone.  I hope this helps put Nintendo back on the charts.  I love their systems and their 1st party software.  It just sucks that many of the 3rd party developers are ignoring Nintendo these days.

Don't forget Monkey Ball!  I love that game!

I will indeed probably be getting a cube soon.  I haven't played Zelda or Metroid or any of those at all.  (only Cube game I've played is Monkey Ball.)  and I was a hardcore zelda and metroid fan on snes.

[abrannan]

In the past 7 years I've noticed a strange parallel between the success of a console and the ease in which games can copied (or the console mod-chipped).

Take the N64 vs PS1 - PS1 wins by a long shot. It was very easy and relatively inexpensive to buy a modchip for the PS1 and make copies on CD-Rs. I haven't heard anyone make cartridge backups but I'm sure it can be done.

Take the current race, GC vs PS2 vs XBox. From what I've read the PS2 is the easiest to modchip and recordable DVDs are becoming cheap. The PS2 has the biggest market share. Conversely, the GC makes it next to impossible to make backups of the games and it has the lowest market share.

Sony seems to win by tolerating some amount of piracy where the others have clamped down. I find it a strange coincidence.  

I'm sure the buyers of consoles have considered the ease of copying games as one of the factors in deciding which console to buy. Maybe Sony understands that and they put just enough copy protection to satisfy the 3rd party publishers. Not a thought.

I want a GC.

Which means, by extension that if the Dreamcast were had come out today, it'd be doing great.  The difficulty with copying DC discs came in the initial reading, not in the playing (didn't require a chip).  Broadband and p2p apps weren't big enough when the DC was around to allow for it to take off.  But now it only takes one fool with a GD-ROM to make a DC game available to everyone.