What's up with the angling?

[Howard_Casto]

Xaiou2:

Rather than responding to your illogical counter-arguments that rely on the ONE EXCEPTION amoung thousands of arcade games, let me just say this:


Isn't that kind of the pot calling the kettle black? I mean you've pretty much been crowned "king troll" at this point. 

[DaveMMR]

If someone wants angled controls on their CP, I couldn't care less; I'm never gonna play their cab.  Seems that some arcade purists can get pretty bent out of shape over silly stuff.

That is fair.  But even though we're comparing to arcade standards, it's more about playability.  And while I shouldn't really care what other people choose to do, I should disclose that I do peruse people's panels all the time and a part of me gets a little disappointed when an otherwise gorgeous, well-constructed panel might play poorly due to breaking away from the norm. It's heartbreaking when you put time, effort and money into something and your friends complain about it being "broken". I'm not trying to dictate what should be done so much as giving new builders some food for thought. Thorough testing is always the best practice before committing to anything permanent.

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said. 

[Vater]

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

Sure, I totally get that.  My surprise comes from the fact that unless you open the panel, look at the manual, or just eventually figure it out after dropping a s***ton of quarters, you're not going to know they're angled (case in point: this thread).  At least if there were arrows, you can try to ingrain in your brain the angle you should be positioning yourself during the game.  Poetic, eh?  And the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain...

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said.  

Thanks.  I suppose as both a service and disservice to the arcade purists, I'm in the process of converting an original working Virtua Fighter into a MAME cab, complete with borderline Frankenpanel.  A disservice because I'm altering an original cab, and a service because I'm ridding the world of one more control panel with angled joysticks...and a fairly lousy game.

[Howard_Casto]

If someone wants angled controls on their CP, I couldn't care less; I'm never gonna play their cab.  Seems that some arcade purists can get pretty bent out of shape over silly stuff.

That is fair.  But even though we're comparing to arcade standards, it's more about playability.  And while I shouldn't really care what other people choose to do, I should disclose that I do peruse people's panels all the time and a part of me gets a little disappointed when an otherwise gorgeous, well-constructed panel might play poorly due to breaking away from the norm. It's heartbreaking when you put time, effort and money into something and your friends complain about it being "broken". I'm not trying to dictate what should be done so much as giving new builders some food for thought. Thorough testing is always the best practice before committing to anything permanent.

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said. 

+100,000,000

Understand when veterans are voicing their opinion they are NOT telling you what to do, rather they are trying to save you from your own inexperience.  When a newbie comes up with his latest frankenpanel design he sees his "own unique and innovative layout"  we, on the other hand, see a little boy about to stick his finger in a light socket.  You don't know better so it's no fault of your own, but we might... we just don't want to see you get shocked. 

[alfonzotan]

Heck, it works in Wacko...

[paigeoliver]

There was a 4 player 1970s Snake game that also had angled sticks, but that was back before they knew better (arcade games with joysticks instead of paddles were pretty new at the time). There are maybe a half dozen others.

I agree with Howard. People say your angled sticks and innovative button layouts are wrong because they are trying to keep you from making a newbie mistake, one that can potentially be very expensive if you work up a custom panel with artwork only to have it work horribly because of angled sticks and special button layouts.

[danny_galaga]

When QWERTY was created it was far from the industry standard.  The jamming problem was solved on type writers very early and it was many years before QWERTY took over, and it was done in the face of a lot of competitors.  Point being, it's the standard because people preferred it and not because some nefarious designer was attempting to slow typists down.


Anyway, now that you know, it's one of those things that'll drive you nuts like "NASA spent millions on a pen, the Soviets used a pencil" and "the creator of Fahrenheit made 100 degrees equal to the hottest day of the year" and other nonsense stories people like to repeat.

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

The Fahrenheit scale is a tad inexplicable though, you must admit...

[Green Giant]

When QWERTY was created it was far from the industry standard.  The jamming problem was solved on type writers very early and it was many years before QWERTY took over, and it was done in the face of a lot of competitors.  Point being, it's the standard because people preferred it and not because some nefarious designer was attempting to slow typists down.


Anyway, now that you know, it's one of those things that'll drive you nuts like "NASA spent millions on a pen, the Soviets used a pencil" and "the creator of Fahrenheit made 100 degrees equal to the hottest day of the year" and other nonsense stories people like to repeat.

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

The Fahrenheit scale is a tad inexplicable though, you must admit...

In terms of every day practicality, Fahrenheit is a better measurement system.  Mr. Fahrenheit intentionally adjusted his system to incorporate the human body temperature and freezing point of water on a smooth scale avoiding fractions to ensure the actual scale would work cleanly.  64 degrees separation between freezing water and avg human temp or 6 bisecting lines on a scale.


Celsius is a much better scientific scale.

[CheffoJeffo]

How long before this thread gets sent to PnRnMetric ?

[paigeoliver]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

[leapinlew]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

The only reason I can think why someone would do this is they get over zealous in the BYO spirit and try to re-think everything. Lots of times it's no big deal with a machine being 3" taller, but occasionally you will get someone who decides that a control panel needs to be 60".

[BadMouth]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

......but is the joystick angled?

[Le Chuck]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

You mean no way to fix it besides getting a piece of wood, cutting new holes, and remounting everything right?  I get the huge investment in hardware but CPs themselves aren't overly expensive to create. 

[paigeoliver]

No, the buttons are just a smidge too far apart and the button layout is too angled. It makes it hard to play, particularly on the very kind of games it is supposedly designed to play.

Yes, make a new panel, tossing out the existing panel with custom plexi, artwork, tmolding. It isn't just a matter of the cost of a new piece of wood!  

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

......but is the joystick angled?

[paigeoliver]

Here is a shot of the whole thing. It is beautiful, the quality of the work is top notch and the wiring is pretty clean too (not quite up to dedicated Atari standards but better than most conversion games).

And the button layout is just funky enough to detract from the experience, but not funky enough to make it worth tossing the whole thing out.

[Le Chuck]

You spring for new art, I've got the wood and T-molding already.  I'll spring for plexi and we'll split the beer costs.  Come on over, we'll getchya fixed up on a saturday morning. 

[CheffoJeffo]

What I want to know is if Paige will drive the MAMEmobile there.

[paigeoliver]

Might take you up on that offer once the game fund gets above zero (lost my job a few weeks ago).

[Le Chuck]

Might take you up on that offer once the game fund gets above zero (lost my job a few weeks ago).

Sorry to hear that bro but it's nice to see you back on the forums after hiatus.

[Howard_Casto]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

I appreciate you sharing this..... 

I used to hang out in the old irc chatroom constantly (back when people actually went there for help).  People would come in with layouts like that and we would try to steer them away from it.  Soemtimes we could, sometimes we couldn't.  One of the benefits of being a dinosaur like myself is you are around long enough that these same people come back to talk to you... sometimes YEARS after their build.  9 times out of 10 if they took our advice they come back sayng that they are happy with their cab... if they didn't the response is usually something like "boy I wish I would have listened to you guys back then."

I think this is a good example because it looks really nice.  I mean you wouldn't look at that and think that it would be unplayable.... unless you actually have experience with layouts.

[Xiaou2]

Yeah, your Really tooting your own horn now Ay Howie?  You act as if you are the King of Arcade knowledge.. and quite frankly, your not.  Especially back then.  There are people older and wiser, and much Nicer to boot.

if they didn't the response is usually something like "boy I wish I would have listened to you guys back then.

 What about those people you helped guide to use composite instead of Svideo?

 And what about those whos faces you kicked, without their permission, on a trash website?  Im sure that really Helped them too...

 TooT-TooT

[DaveMMR]

Xiaou, Howard doesn't need defending from me but I do have to say that I don't see the point in your derailing of threads to carry out a personal vendetta.  Did his advice of using composite instead of Svideo cause you some sort of irreparable harm that you have to bring it up all these years later? You seriously need to let that go; stop poisoning threads with some off-topic anger issues.

Paige, maybe we need to come up with a "Top 10 CP design choices you should reconsider" (much like your earlier topic on cabinet "mistakes").

[kahlid74]

Just saw this image and it looks sure as heck like the joysticks are slightly angled right?  For players 3/4.

[Hoopz]

I tried angling my joys and it didn't work so I changed it.  Some people may be able to do it but I didn't.  Just personal preference.  I know that I'm different than most people here because I am right handed and use my right hand on the joy stick and use my off hand for the buttons.  Its just about what works for the guys/ladies building their CPs.

[Barry Barcrest]

Just saw this image and it looks sure as heck like the joysticks are slightly angled right?  For players 3/4.

On all these 4 player cabs like this you tend to find no one want's to be the side controllers. This is true of all of them back to the original gaunlet II, TMNT, Simpsons etc... If you are not square on to the screen it's just awkward.

[Hoopz]

On all these 4 player cabs like this you tend to find no one want's to be the side controllers. This is true of all of them back to the original gaunlet II, TMNT, Simpsons etc... If you are not square on to the screen it's just awkward.

Truer words have never been spoken on these forums!   

[paigeoliver]

That Gauntlet Legends machine isn't dedicated, some stoned arcade employee did a half-ass conversion and like many newbies thought he should angle the sticks.

Here is a dedicated panel. Up is up.

[Le Chuck]

True, and also true I still hate playing in the P3 or P4 slot.

[Peja]

This topic is interesting for someone like me who is going to pick up his melamine sheet today and make his first control panel.  This whole time, I figured I would angle my joysticks on players 3 and 4 like  on a mameroom quad player panel.  http://www.mameroom.com/Products_QuadController.asp


Now I read almost everyone here says the 3 and 4 players should be facing straight up.  Now I have a Dynamo showcase cab so it doesn't  effect me too much since I am a ways away from the screen, but now I must make a decision on how to angle/not angle my sticks. 

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

[DaveMMR]

Peja, keep in mind that control panels (or controllers) you hold in your hand and controls permanently installed into a stationary panel are not the same.  With little exception, they should be straight.

I think a lot of issues could be solved by separating any comparisons between the home console and the arcade machine.  

[Peja]

Peja, keep in mind that control panels you hold in your hand and controls permanently installed into a stationary panel are not the same.  With little exception, they should be straight.

I think a lot of issues could be solved by separating any comparisons between the home console and the arcade machine. 

I get what you are saying, I really do.  In fact, even while typing it out, in the back of my head I knew I should probably word it in a way that I wasn't comparing the two apples to apples. 

With that being said, on a setup like mine(which is set on being a 4 player panel), would you make almost a rectangular CP or still have curves for the 3 and 4 player to stand on the side but make their controls still aim up.  For some reason I can't grasp my head around that being a very comfortable layout for the 3 and 4 players. 

Time for a few different cardboard mockups I suppose.

[Green Giant]

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

But think about it like this.

When you play a console you still hold the controller parallel to your body.  When you approach an arcade control panel, you will almost inherently align your shoulders parallel to the control panel/face of the cabinet.

I would imagine you would still feel more comfortable on a showcase control panel with the joysticks pointing up even if the tv was off to the left.

[Peja]

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

But think about it like this.

When you play a console you still hold the controller parallel to your body.  When you approach an arcade control panel, you will almost inherently align your shoulders parallel to the control panel/face of the cabinet.

I would imagine you would still feel more comfortable on a showcase control panel with the joysticks pointing up even if the tv was off to the left.

This is something I will have to try with a mock cut out.  I am not sure I would face straight at it if I was player 3 or 4.  When two other people are already on players 1 and 2, to give myself the most room and be comfortable, I see myself not minding the angle and getting used to it. 

Once again, this is my first CP I am making so the safe bet would be on me not knowing what the heck I am talking about.....

[paigeoliver]

I know your brain might keep saying angle, but your brain is wrong there. Even if the player is basically standing on the side of the panel (like player 3 and 4 on a dedicated Gauntlet) you STILL need to have the sticks face north.

Also, that mameroom panel you linked has the button bank angled, not the joysticks.

Here is another gauntlet legends control panel. this one a showcase. All the joysticks face the monitor.

You can trust darn near every factory built game ever made and the combined knowledge of all the experienced builders here.

Or you can listen to that little part of your brain that can't stop thinking about gamepads (and the people who listened to that part of their brain and refuse to admit they made a mistake).

You will also find that it won't matter much, your cabinet probably won't see much 4 player action regardless (unless you have children). 4 player cabinets were mostly gimmicks to convince game operators that they could get twice the income on one machine. It was rare to see more than 2 people on one out in the arcade, unless the game was brand new. When I owned 4 player machines in the past people would literally just swap out two at a time rather than all cram in around the same machine. Adults just don't like doing that.

[Peja]

I hear ya paigeoliver. 

Now if only I could find a template of a comfortable 4 player CP with trackball I could use as my cutout, I may give it a shot.  Not only will this be for adults but for my hordes of nieces and nephews.  We have a close family so there is a lot of family time. 

Thanks for the advice.

[Vigo]

Time for a few different cardboard mockups I suppose.

Smart man! 

All I can say is that you just need to test it out for yourself, have family and friends try it with you on an angled and straight set up. I have seen the angle work, but as I said on a different thread, I think a few objectives had to be met. The screen had to be large enough and offset enough from the screen. The control panel needs to be very defining of the angle the controls are at, the one I tried was a half octagon shape with the controls lines up with that angle. I think most people here will recommend straight joysticks because it simply works, every time. Shoulders crashing together is a much smaller problem than wonky controls.

I once made an angle mockup for my old 4 player cabinet....it was a huge failure, though I am glad I tested it out. I learned a lot about my layout needs in general from it.

There is simply no downside to over-testing a control panel layout.

[Howard_Casto]

Agreed! One of the reasons I'm so vocal about cp designs is because I've made quite a few mistakes over the years.  I think it was halfway though my second cp (for my first official cabinet) that I started going the whole cardboard route and boy does it save in lumber costs! 

[paigeoliver]

Really, Howard knows what he is talking about! You don't hang around the community for years and years and have as much involvement as he has without learning a thing or two.

People aren't ragging on angled sticks because they are THE MAN, trying to keep you down, trying to keep you from using the BETTER method. They are ragging on angled sticks to keep you from making a possibly very costly mistake.

Agreed! One of the reasons I'm so vocal about cp designs is because I've made quite a few mistakes over the years.  I think it was halfway though my second cp (for my first official cabinet) that I started going the whole cardboard route and boy does it save in lumber costs! 

[loppydog]

This was an interesting read for me.  I built my CAB a few years back and it is only a 2 person:

Not knowing any better, I angled my sticks.  I am pretty happy with the way the buttons feel (kinda angled), but the sticks have always bugged me.  Honestly, I thought that angled stick were the norm.  Now I want to straighten them, but It is going to be kind of a lot of work (routing and re-wiring).  Long story short, I agree, sticks should point north.

[paigeoliver]

That one looks fixable without spending any money, however you would have to drill your new joystick holes through the panel (I am assuming your original ones are under the overlay or something, because I don't see them).