4-player I-Pac 4 question

[DogFish]

i'm starting to build a 4-player MAME cab (Yippee!) and i plan to have all my admin keys (save/load/service menu/mame menu etc) as separate key along the top of the controller, rather than using shift keys and whatnot. (i'd post a pic, but i have no idea how ... ) all my admin keys plus all my player keys and joystick directions add up to 58 inputs, and the ipac 4 supports a maximum of 56 inputs. i'm unwilling to sacrifice any of the keys i have, but i need those extra inputs. i was thinking i would put all the player keys and joystick directions on the ipac 4, and use... something else for the admin keys. so i spose my question is this.... whats a good interface to wire up a dozen odd keys seperately from the i-pac? something programmable so i can have F2,F3, TAB etc directly mapped to individual buttons. or would i be better off just hacking a keyboard for the admin keys? thanks a bunch for any help, this has got me stumped.

[Hoopz]

You can buy a cheap encoder from Vigo that'll handle the extra inputs but I will say, along with everyone else who posts, that you should reconsider whether  you really need all those admin functions on the control panel.

The better idea may be to have a keyboard stuck in your cabinet or easily available if it won't fit in the cabinet for the times you need to do something extra.  Save states are different, but once you get the system setup, you won't need the TAB key mapped as it's not used that much.  And if you have anyone else playing on the cabinet, giving access to the menu system in Mame is asking for trouble.

So you can tack on an extra encoder or hack up a keyboard.  The best (relative term) solution is to eliminate some of the "unnecessary" buttons.  Or consider going shift for save/load and service menu/mame menu.  That alone eliminates two and you've hit your goal.

Or post more about all of your inputs and we'll see if we can offer any more unsolicited advice.   

[Le Chuck]

Click reply, look right below the white box you type in and click the blue "additional options" then click attach file, and follow suit.  That should get you posting things.  If that doesn't work you can always put it up in photo bucket or another image hosting site, get the URL to the image and then stick in your post. 

Sounds like you have a lot going on with that CP, you'll get better advice if we can take a look at it or at least break down by player how many buttons you are allocating - or may be easier to do so by joystick/spinner/trackball

[DogFish]

attempting picture....

[DogFish]

ok, so... yes. that is in fact a lot of buttons, i know that and i don't mind. i kinda like how it looks, cluttered... but functional and still simple.

anyway, as you can see, there are 8 buttons for player 1 and 2, and three buttons for player 3 and 4, plus a start button and a coin button each. plus the admin buttons, which are (not quite the same as the pic the design has changed since then); escape, enter, Mame menu, Service menu, pause , save, load, slot 1, slot 2, slot 3, and i'm sure a lot of people might think i should just eliminate 2 save slot buttons, but keeping in mind this is also going to be using emulators for many home consoles, and its nice to have a few save slots, especially when multiple people will be using it. that also eliminates my ability to use shift keys even if i wanted to (i dont, i'd forget whats what), as a lot of emulators dont have multiple keystrokes mappable for a single function. that and even if they did, its more hassle than its worth.

anyway, thanks again.
p.s, excuse the garish colours, the buttons are actually red/yellow/green/blue for each player (neo geo colours ), and also snes colours, just in the wrong order ^_^

[DaveMMR]

escape, enter, Mame menu, Service menu, pause , save, load, slot 1, slot 2, slot 3, and i'm sure a lot of people might think i should just eliminate 2 save slot buttons,

The buttons don't look terrible (you have the room) but putting admin buttons on there opens up the possibility of guests screwing up your configuration without any effort whatsoever.  And judging by the fact that it's a four-player panel, I assume you plan on entertaining with this project.

Assuming also that you're playing strictly MAME, there aren't many games that I would imagine you'd need to "save" (games that DID save information should be emulated properly - e.g. NBA Jam records, etc.)  If you're looking at long adventure type games, you'll probably grow weary of playing at a stand-up machine; they're better suited for the couch.

If you really want to have these buttons - they're be better somewhere else out of sight and reach where only you can work them (if you had a locked coin door, you could mount them behind it.)

Finally, I can't really tell - it could just be the artwork or guidance lines - but the inside (main) joysticks looked angled.  If that's the case, you'll definitely want to fix that. Nobody looks at artwork arrows while playing games.  

Sorry, not meaning to be a downer but at the end of the day, these are things that'll make or break a panel.  You want it to be simple for people to use - and the less buttons on there to confuse (or tempt people with), the better.  Good luck!

[Le Chuck]

You mentioned wanting multiple save states for consoles but most console games have save points that are all supported by their target emulators.  Games that you don't save on (early NES code giving games fer instance) I doubt would see enough play to justify the multiple states.  I think the software will support your save games for everything north of Zelda timeline wise.  Now if you want multiple states because you die between save points that's a different matter entirely.  Either way I would think hard about reducing that down because the utility just isn't there in my opinion.  Other than that the panel looks alright and I echo 100% everything Dave said.  Get those core admin buttons tucked away from idle hands or else somebody is likely to accidently set Mega-Maid to self destruct... again.

[DogFish]

yeah, i was going to make a lockable lift-up plexiglass (or polycarb, undecided) cover for all the admin buttons asides from enter and escape. definitely keeping my guest's grubby little fingers away from my config settings

and also,   i like angled controls! i realise that makes me part of a major minority, but i find that when playing street fighter on a close screen with the sticks on the coffee table, they nearly always end up on a slight angle, and i thought i'd replicate that. but granted, with the trackball in between, there would still be a comfortable amount of space between players 1 and 2 to not be bumping elbows even with a straight stick setup.

and its not strictly mame, its going to be a hyperspin setup with quite a few classic console emulators (nes, snes, master system, mega drive) its far from necessary, but its nice to have savestates for mario and sonic, and all those involving, but still causal games for old consoles.

and no problem about being a downer, it's nice to get opinions on setting it all up. living in australia, i havent actually touched a real arcade machine for maybe a decade, sure theres timezone... but thats just skilltester's and DDR machines, not s sign of street fighter or metal slug anywhere...

bloody australia.... i cant even get a sheet of polycarb big enough to go over the panel here...i need 50cm by 160cm, and the closest you can get here is 100cmx120cm *grumble grumble*

oh, and the saveststes? being an arcade machine, and my friends being the easily distracted drunkards that they are, i dont expect people to dedicate themselves to a game in session, but its nice to be able to just save your spot exactly where you are and get back to it later, say sonic 2 for example, multiplayer but no built in save, so that way we could just save the spot we are in, turn the cab off, and get back to it at our leisure.

[DogFish]

also, drunkenly slapping a save button is much easier than drunkenly pulling a keyboard out and trying to focus your eyes well enough to figure out which damn button is save! 

[Le Chuck]

More power to you, but who the hell saves when playing drunk? 

[DogFish]

AUSTRALIANS! 

[DogFish]

so, anyway... back to buisness. (need a penguin adjusting his tie emoticon) where might i get a vigo encoder? or any other encoder (preferably cheap and usb compatible) that could deal with a dozen odd admin keys? sure, if it comes to it i'll just hack a keyboard, but that's a bit messy and unprofessional, i'll like to make the insides of it as uncluttered as possible.

oh, and if anyone's wondering, the control panel is going to be for a showcase style cab with either a 42 or 50" LCD TV. thought i should probably mention that.

[Le Chuck]

From Vigo 

[DaveMMR]

i like angled controls! i realise that makes me part of a major minority, but i find that when playing street fighter on a close screen with the sticks on the coffee table, they nearly always end up on a slight angle, and i thought i'd replicate that. but granted, with the trackball in between, there would still be a comfortable amount of space between players 1 and 2 to not be bumping elbows even with a straight stick setup.

Fair enough but a big caveat about that.  You are comparing what I imagine is a stand alone arcade panel (like the old example of an NES Advantage stick) on your table that you are angling to your CURRENT position. There's still a reference line (the front lip of that control panel), not to mention your body is aware of how you are holding it (like a control pad).

Now with controls pretty much permanently mounted into one position on an arcade cabinet control panel, with the front of the panel not at all parallel to the angling, there will be much discombobulation when playing.  You're now setting yourself up for being locked into one very specific point in front of that panel with absolute no frame of reference as to which way is up (unless you put arrows on the artwork, which means you have to look away from the screen just to see which way is up - not good.)

What I think a lot of well intentioned planners don't realize is that with straight sticks, you can actually move slightly away from the other player without compromising control. You don't need to be square in front of your stick to be able to control it - so long as there's that universal reference point (i.e. up towards monitor.)  That's why I don't recall a lot of "elbowing" during heating SFII matches back in the early 90's.

Also, considering you're setting up for four-player fun - you might be dejected when your three friends complain of "broken controls".  You may like the angling - but they may be used to the the traditional "up towards monitor" standard.

But again, test it out on your cardboard with real games, see how it plays.  If it works across the board with everyone involved, go for it.  But if there's any doubt, 90 degrees (up towards monitor) is usually the most foolproof.

Sorry, just felt like being an anti-angling kick today. I go through that every so often. But yeah anyway, Vigo sells the encoders in his signature. And I posted the link originally but Le Chuck beat me to it. 

[DogFish]

the vigo encoder looks nice, but can it be set up so that button pushes correspond to key presses? so they come through as F2, F3, TAB, etc? from what i can tell its set up like a gamepad, which will be fine for mame, but not the other emulators i want top use... thanks again for all your help ^_^ i'm quite blown away. and also, if i were to angle the edge of the controller at the same angle as the controls themselves, do you think that would fix the disorientation?

[Le Chuck]

I'm going to second dave's opinion and suggest that up to monitor at a 90 is the best way to go - I can't think of a commercially successful cab that isn't setup that way.

As for the encoder you may have to use joytokey, it's a small easy to use program that encodes joystick presses as whatever keystrokes you want.  It works pretty much globally to so if you can set the same buttons across all your emulators then it's super easy, if the emulator can't be adjusted you can write some simple scripts that call the right setup in joytokey for a target program.  I use it all the time and never have an issue with it as I don't have an encoder but just joypad inputs.