Vector Love

[FrizzleFried]

....and thanks to VectorLabs the SW also does...



I only have 6 more vectors to add to make the whole "small side" of the garagecade dedicated to the lovely vector...

[opt2not]

Beautiful! 

[yotsuya]

Nice vector porn there.

[boardjunkie]

Star Castle RAWKS!

Black Widow....don't see that around much.
Yer missing a regular Asteroids tho...

[SammyWI]

Nice.  So many vectors, so little time.

[FrizzleFried]

Star Castle RAWKS!

Black Widow....don't see that around much.
Yer missing a regular Asteroids tho...

I've had more Asteroids than any other cabinet (4).  I sold my last one knowing I would be getting the Asteroids Multigame kit when it came out.  I'm still waiting.

I'd love to add:

Armor Attack
Gravitar
Red Baron
Major Havoc
Space Fury
Zektor

[Gray_Area]

Lovely. I'm coming over.

I would trade the Star Castle for Space Duel. Except for Quantum, that would make the set complete.

[FrizzleFried]

Lovely. I'm coming over.

I would trade the Star Castle for Space Duel. Except for Quantum, that would make the set complete.

I'd trade the Star Castle for a Space Duel... when are you comin' over?

[wp34]

With all due respect you suck.   

Looks like a freakin' arcade.  Wow.

[ChadTower]

I've been fighting my Red Baron to stay working all summer.  Starting to get personal.  I'll fix it, it'll die again, and so on...

[HaRuMaN]

This motivates me to get my BZ up and running...

[ChadTower]

This motivates me to get my BZ up and running...

I have one of those I've been fighting too.  I have a habit of pulling nasty cabinets out of filthy warehouses that haven't been working in 20 years.   

[boardjunkie]

It can be done....but it ain't always what I'd call easy. I once repaired a Ms Pacman board that looked like it was buried in the ground for 20 yrs.....

[leapinlew]

Star Castle RAWKS!

Thats another game that desperately needs a spinner. I like star castle, but the games controls really need to be a spinner. I'd like to talk to the developers to find out if they went with the buttons for cost reasons.

[boardjunkie]

They did it that way 'cause thats the way it was done back then. Tempest was the first spinner game IIRC. Space Invaders, Asteroids, Phoenix, etc were all done with the L/R button setup. 2 buttons and the associated switches were far cheaper than either developing a custom sipnner control and mfgr'ing it. Atari had deep pockets, so they could do whatever they wanted. Cinematronics was barely scraping by at the time SC was done. I'm sure a pot could've been used, but then again they wear with heavy use. Buttons were the best option at the time.

FWIW, I would think you could adapt SC to spinner control fairly easy via using an actual spinner with added circuitry to mimic a switch closure.

[ChadTower]

Tempest was the first spinner game IIRC.

There were spinner games way before Tempest.  The Breakout series instantly comes to mind.

[TheShanMan]

Tempest was the first spinner game IIRC.

How 'bout pong?

Personally I have no desire to "load up" on vector games. I'm not that interested in theme "rows" in general. I'm pretty agnostic about technology/platform; I just get the games I enjoy the most. However, I have to admit that a vector row is a beautiful thing! Lookin' good, Jon!

[leapinlew]

Tempest was the first spinner game IIRC.

There were spinner games way before Tempest.  The Breakout series instantly comes to mind.

No doubt. Not to mention all the tons of home consoles & driving games that were out before star castle. If anything, spinners were all over the place.

FWIW, I would think you could adapt SC to spinner control fairly easy via using an actual spinner with added circuitry to mimic a switch closure.

Spinning to control an object on screen which spins at a fixed rate would be awful. It needs to be modded so the faster you spin, the faster the ship spins and the game difficulty should ramp up accordingly. I mean, it's fine how it is, it just always seemed to me that the game should've used a spinner.

[boardjunkie]

Kids....those weren't spinners as in optical encoders. They were just pots....and I already mentioned that option. Go fish....

[leapinlew]

Kids....those weren't spinners as in optical encoders. They were just pots....and I already mentioned that option. Go fish....

A pot would've worked better than those crappy 2 buttons. The driving games did use optical encoders. Heres some reading for you:

http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=sprint-2&page=detail&id=2596

The control panel featured two steering wheels that had 360 degree movement (and worked off optical encoders), and a gas pedal and a four position shifter for each player. All of the game circuits are built into a single large PCB, which also has an integrated power supply.

1976! I bet most of the games used optical encoders. I had a 1976 Lemans which had an optical encoder.

Point is, Cinemetronics CHOSE to make that game with buttons and not "Cause thats the way they did it back then"

Looks like I caught a big fish!

[boardjunkie]

A steering control isn't exactly a "spinner" in the sense we were referring to is it. I'm well aware of such driving controls. We were talking about spinners, not steering wheels.

My main point was.....in the financial state C-tronics was in, they sure as hell weren't gonna spend money on a spinner control when 2 buttons could, would, and did work just fine.

A buck 2-98 looks a lot better on a BOM to the bean counters than $40 does.

[leapinlew]

My main point was.....in the financial state C-tronics was in, they sure as hell weren't gonna spend money on a spinner control when 2 buttons could, would, and did work just fine.

My main point was 2 buttons didn't work fine and is part of the reason the game wasn't as successful as it could have been. Your recollection of Tempest being the first spinner game was wrong as several people pointed out spinner games which use spinners and electronic encoders had existed for several years. The truth is Star Castle is built using the Space Wars hardware which probably doesn't support a spinner... it probably wasn't as much a financial decision as working within the confines of the existing hardware. (My assumption after reading some interesting articles and looking at the Cinematronics video game line up)

I hope this concludes our nerd fight.  

[Gray_Area]

The ship in Star Castle thrusted, and turned, too quickly for any control to be great for the average player.  Flush.

[leapinlew]

The ship in Star Castle thrusted, and turned, too quickly for any control to be great for the average player.  Flush.

So you're saying that I'm above average. Thanks.

[boardjunkie]

My main point was.....in the financial state C-tronics was in, they sure as hell weren't gonna spend money on a spinner control when 2 buttons could, would, and did work just fine.

My main point was 2 buttons didn't work fine and is part of the reason the game wasn't as successful as it could have been. Your recollection of Tempest being the first spinner game was wrong as several people pointed out spinner games which use spinners and electronic encoders had existed for several years. The truth is Star Castle is built using the Space Wars hardware which probably doesn't support a spinner... it probably wasn't as much a financial decision as working within the confines of the existing hardware. (My assumption after reading some interesting articles and looking at the Cinematronics video game line up)

I hope this concludes our nerd fight.  

Dude....a spinner is a spinner. A steering wheel is not a spinner (although works on the same principal if optical), a trackball is not a spinner (same operating mode), and a pot is not a spinner. Tempest introduced the concept of the spinner control as we know it in arcade games. Just FYI, the Atari 2600 "driving" controller was essentially an optical spinner, so this predates Tempest by a couple years. But that is a home game, not an arcade game.

And yes the Vectorbeam/Cinematronics hardware supports optical encoder inputs. How do you think Speed Freak worked?

[leapinlew]

Tempest introduced the concept of the spinner control as we know it in arcade games.

 

Whatever dude. Twist things up however you like. My opinion is that Star Castle would have been better with a spinner. Your opinion is that Star Castle was done that way to save money and that spinners were such a radical concept no one ever though of until Tempest.

FWIW, I tried to get the same guy who did Time Pilot/Gyruss with a spinner to add Star Castle to the list so I could put it on my Mame cabinet, but no luck. I may give it a go myself.

[TheShanMan]

Kids....those weren't spinners as in optical encoders. They were just pots....and I already mentioned that option. Go fish....

True. You got me there.

[Xiaou2]

It needs to be modded so the faster you spin, the faster the ship spins and the game difficulty should ramp up accordingly

 This again, is a stupid discussion.

 Ships dont accelerate instantly spinning at mach 5  "in-place".   Its unrealistic, and stupid.

 Thrusters are used to turn things in space.  Thrusters take time and acceleration to accomplish their goal.  Thrusters take skill to use well..  which is why you can even make a game like Lunar Lander.

 You want the game to be Easier for your lackings.
 The developers wanted these games to  control/be  realistically, and be challenging.

[FrizzleFried]

My high score is about 19K... it's one ---smurfette--- of a game... but a blast IMHO.

[Malenko]

Amazing collection Frizz, I'm jealous.

[leapinlew]

It needs to be modded so the faster you spin, the faster the ship spins and the game difficulty should ramp up accordingly

 This again, is a stupid discussion.

 Ships dont accelerate instantly spinning at mach 5  "in-place".   Its unrealistic, and stupid.


 You want the game to be Easier for your lackings.
 The developers wanted these games to  control/be  realistically, and be challenging.

That one quote you pulled was out of context. It was an answer to using the spinner to simulate buttons to which my reply is appropriate. If you are going to use a spinner, it makes perfect sense that as you spin faster, your sprite moves faster, does it not?

You want the game to be Easier for your lackings.

Again, you've taken part of what I was saying and responded to it. I suggested that after adding a spinner they would need to ramp up the difficulty. The fact that using a spinner would make the game easier suggests that the controls currently used are not optimized. Therefore, based on your own argument, you are agreeing with me and that a spinner should be used. Thanks. 

Thrusters are used to turn things in space.  Thrusters take time and acceleration to accomplish their goal.  Thrusters take skill to use well..  which is why you can even make a game like Lunar Lander.

I suppose you think Arkanoid should be with 2 buttons or does a spinner make sense? Afterall, Arkanoid is a spaceship and spinning it faster moves you instantly fast. Not to mention Blasteroids, Star Trek, Zektor, etc  So... according to your logic SOME developer were doing it wrong, aren't they?

Lastly, I don't know how concerned the creator of Star Castle is concerned with realism. In fact, I'd suggest most of the games of the 80's created games on the exact opposite of realism.

[Gray_Area]

I'm sure the creators of various games through those years used buttons instead of sticks and spinners because buttons were the cheapest/most cost-effective control. Some of the designers might've even preferred the...control....of buttons.

The Atari controller was a pot I thought, which is why it turns close to but not quite 360.

Incidentally, Zektor is essentially the same kind of game, and does use a spinner. It's only marginally better.

[ChadTower]

I don't think it had anything to do with the cost of the control.  I think it had to do with the reuse of existing PCB designs and it being too expensive/time consuming to retool for making a set of boards that had a spinner circuit instead of buttons.  It just wasn't worth doing compared to using buttons and maybe having a game that wasn't quite as fun.

[boardjunkie]

Well in the case of Star Castle, its the same boardset that the rest of the early Cinematronics games used. So there were inputs for digital switches, analog pots, and optocoupler based controls. So they could have used some sort of spinner if they wanted to. But they didn't exist yet, and when L/R buttons were the norm there was no real need to invent a new controller. I/O functions are handled on the sound board, so they just used different revisions of that for different games. The rest was universal.

So Tempest started it all, and after that it was a case of "hey, thats a good idea....lets do that too".

Anyone who wants a spinner for SC can figure out how to do it on their own. Its not that hard. And if yer crafty you can use a threaded bushing mount to install it in place of a button without altering the control panel.

[leapinlew]

So Tempest started it all, and after that it was a case of "hey, thats a good idea....lets do that too".

Someone needs to tell me where all these spinner games are that Tempest inspired. I mean, Omega Race is ok but it originally used a POT so I guess by your definition it doesn't count. It's a massive overstatement to say that Tempest started the spinner games. To average Joe video gamer, he doesn't care if breakout\pong uses a pot or an encoder. It's the same thing.

[boardjunkie]

Thats just wrong. A pot does not rotate continuously in circles. A spinner does. **Thats what makes it a spinner.**

Consult Wikipedia if you don't wanna take my word for it.....

Here....I'll do the work for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_(game_controller)

[boardjunkie]

And...theres a ton of spinner games that Tempest inspired (control wise). Mad Planets, Tron, Blasteroids, Aztarac, Kozmik Kroozr, Arkanoid, Star Trek, Tac Scan.....etc etc.

[ChadTower]

Honestly, I see an optical wheel as the same thing as a spinner.  So does the hardware.  The only difference is what is tacked onto the encoder wheel.  There were driving games with "spinners" before Tempest.

[boardjunkie]

We've been over that already. My point is, a "spinner" is a unique controller. Not in operation, but in physical manifestation. If you order a spinner from an online parts vendor and they send you an optical interface steering wheel, you gonna be OK with that?

[ChadTower]

We've been over that already. My point is, a "spinner" is a unique controller. Not in operation, but in physical manifestation. If you order a spinner from an online parts vendor and they send you an optical interface steering wheel, you gonna be OK with that?

You've made your feelings clear.  Your opinion is not universally shared.  Deal with it.