Future feature of classic Emulators

[RayB]

... will be this level of graphics upscaling:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2385811,00.asp

[Donkbaca]

I think its cool, as long as you can switch between the two

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Someone started a thread on it earlier today:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111984.0

[Xiaou2]

The problem is that when an artists makes something that has texture on it.. such as a Rock... the filter doesnt know that.  Its just smooths everything.. .and so it looks really awful on a lot of the games.

Mame has just added a new filter system that better replicates scanlines, shadomask effects, bluring, RGB gun mis-alignments... and more.  The effects help smooth out the pixels that way that a large dot pitch arcade monitor did.

 I also suspect monitors were also intentionally de-tuned at the factory, on purpose, to help blend things better.  No jaggies, better color mixing..etc.

[Howard_Casto]

I saw this on kotaku..... it's interesting, but I'm not all the impressed.  Even going by your example there are some blatent problems with it...

Checkout the keyboard... keys aren't round!  Now if it would have thought that the squares were shading and blended them I could excuse that, but it didn't do that either.  All this filter seems to do is scale up the image and then round off solid color blocks. 

[Malenko]

The problem is that when an artists makes something that has texture on it.. such as a Rock... the filter doesnt know that.  Its just smooths everything.. .and so it looks really awful on a lot of the games

I take it you didnt bother to click the link or read?

Two researchers -- Johannes Kopf from Microsoft, and Dani Lischinski from The Hebrew University -- have successfully created an algorithm that depixelizes and upscales low-resolution 8-bit "pixel art" into lush vector graphics.

[RayB]

It does seem to over-do it. I'd be curious about what results looking like when the smoothing is at 50% (assuming an image like the one below is 100%):



You'll notice Xiau2, that in the above, the algorithm knew to smooth together the blue shading, while the black outlines are retained as outlines. I'd imagine a rock texture would end up all smoothed out. (I'm not saying it's better; just saying that's what it would do).

[Xiaou2]

The problem is that when an artists makes something that has texture on it.. such as a Rock... the filter doesnt know that.  Its just smooths everything.. .and so it looks really awful on a lot of the games

I take it you didnt bother to click the link or read?

Two researchers -- Johannes Kopf from Microsoft, and Dani Lischinski from The Hebrew University -- have successfully created an algorithm that depixelizes and upscales low-resolution 8-bit "pixel art" into lush vector graphics.

Read the Title of this post:  Future feature of classic Emulators
And then Rays post:  .. will be this level of graphics upscaling


 There are already versions of mame and other emulators which do almost the exact same thing.

You'll notice Xiau2, that in the above, the algorithm knew to smooth together the blue shading, while the black outlines are retained as outlines. I'd imagine a rock texture would end up all smoothed out. (I'm not saying it's better; just saying that's what it would do).

 Of course I notice.  I notice just about everything.

 And as I said, its not a great option.  Most especially in emulators.

 Look at the microships Pins on the example.  They look like they are dripping.  They are not straight pins like they Should be.  As Howard pointed out... keys became round. 

 And the Dolphin shading, is very poor in relation to what the artists drew.  For one, the two light blue colors are shaded to the point of being nearly washed out.  2ndly, the middle shade is supposed to make the dolphin more rounded, which works on the original.  Yet on the new version?  Its completely wrong.  Its flat, barely visible, and the shape has altered.   The Dark blue, which is supposed to blend in better with the other blue shades, isnt blended at all on the vector version.

 Quite simply, the 'Dumb' algorithm isnt up to the task of interpreting art correctly.

 
 
 

[Malenko]

Read the Title of this post:  Future feature of classic Emulators
And then Rays post:  .. will be this level of graphics upscaling

So we're in agreement then, you didnt read it. I think they got it this good and they are just gonna stop working on it cause that makes perfect sense. They (Kopf and Lischinski) even discuss the short comings of the algorithm in the article and show places it works and doesnt (like the doom guy face)

I believe Ray was saying that emulators will have a new visual effect, along the lines of 2xSaI (that stands for SCALE and INTERPOLATION ) but would be more accurate then just doubling the pixels and blending.

Cant see the forest for the trees?

[Xiaou2]

Its extremely doubtful that Vectorization is ever going to be accurate to what the artists intends.  I know this, because Im artist.  Its not hard to see into the future, when you realize what the realities of the situation are.

 Its one thing to vectorize something, and quite another to make an interpretive vectorization.. such as adding blended shading, and line alterations. (jagged edge -vs- smoothed)

 How is a vector program going to realize that an object is supposed to be 'rough', such as a rock?  By mere color?  Sorry, no dice.   Only a human is going to be able to decipher an artists intentions in a fast and effective manor.   Even many humans who are not artists have trouble with figuring out shading, coloring, and line work.

 You would have to have a PC capable of deciphering game objects, such as understanding the object was a Turtle for example, then figuring out the positioning, comparing it against a 3d model of a turtle, checking the lighting and nearby objects, comparing the artists shading with the 3d shading... and trying to figure out artistic liberties and changes, without distortions to the artists intentions.

 And thats just the tip of the iceburg!

 What about objects of fantasy?  Odd shaped space ships?  Alien plantlife?

 I could go on and on for pages about these things.

 Point being, is that it will never be acceptably correct in your lifetime, let alone a few generations down the road.   Only when PCs are near 'Skynet' level of Artificial Intelligent... might you even have a glimpse of hope for it to work as intended.

[Blanka]

Double post?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111984.0;topicseen

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Double post?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111984.0;topicseen

Yup, I linked to that thread back at reply number 3.

[eds1275]

I think this could be a great addition to emulators among other things. Example number one: my nephews bitching about how the graphics on my arcade machine suck, instead of just playing the games and enjoying them - which they do, but teenage boys tend to enjoy complaining I suppose.

Not all games would benefit from the face-lift. I would imagine a game like Street of Rage would be pretty bad looking, because the art style is fairly functional as is. Double Dragon on the other hand, with their totally disproportionate heads and bodies already has a cartoony look to it so maybe this would be a nice option.

As an option, I think it would be great. Something that could be turned off for the purists, and an option for the rest of us.

[Malenko]

Its extremely doubtful that Vectorization is ever going to be accurate to what the artists intends.  I know this, because Im artist.  Its not hard to see into the future, when you realize what the realities of the situation are.

I could go on and on for pages about anything.

The purpose would be to vectorize some old 8/16bit pixel art. Not turn every single piece of anything ever pixelated ever into a vector, I'm surprised you didn't bring up vectorizing pixelated Japanese porn.

Your post is equal parts GeneSim (artistic intent), Chaddles (I know because I am one) and the worst, part you (rambling) with a hint of PBJ (generic douchbaggery but at least his funny sometimes). I think this is exciting because I'm a pixel artist, working on a lame throw back game and I'd like to see what this game does to MY art. Go draw your stick figures, kk?

[Xiaou2]

Its highly doubtful you are any good at pixel art if you even consider this to be an option.

 Any Real pixel artist would gawk immediately at the butchery that would ensue from this craptastic translation.

 You really are trying to hard to hate me.  Its funny for sure.  But then again, its pretty pathetic and sad.  Grow up little boy.

[Vigo]

Any Real pixel artist would gawk immediately at the butchery that would ensue from this craptastic translation.

I have to disagree with this. I really don't see the elitism in pixel art. You are basing this on the notion that the pixel artist intended for you to see a defined pixelated image. Back in the 8 bit days, we played our games on blurry old Television sets. Those TVs naturally interpolated the images, and made the art look smoother and without the crisp edges or detail. I think any pixel artist from the 8-16 bit era would jump for joy if their art showed up this dynamic and smooth. That is, after all, what they were trying to achieve. They didn't want you to appreciate that mario's mustache was five pixels, they just wanted you realize that those few pixels are a mustache, and hoped even more that you didn't even notice how simple the art really is.

I also think it is a bit silly to say that pixel art is designed with pixels that cannot be interpreted by a computer, when many pixel art techniques were mere computer rasterizations of non computer art. They rasterized all sorts of things: claymation, photographs, hand drawn artwork. Vectorizing the art would be no more of an offense than rasterizing.

[Gray_Area]

I have to disagree with this. I really don't see the elitism in pixel art. You are basing this on the notion that the pixel artist intended for you to see a defined pixelated image.

Ahem. You may want to look up 'Genesim' before you decide to run without caution down this road.

AdvanceMAME, and maybe some other versions, have a 'scale' option that does something somewhat similar to the above algorithm. It looks pretty gross, though.

[Hoopz]

I was going to bring up Genesim too. He freaked out about this.  In Vigo's defense, he at least is rational.  Genesim couldnt calm down long enough to be cogent.

[CheffoJeffo]

Its highly doubtful you are any good at pixel art if you even consider this to be an option.

Any Real pixel artist would gawk immediately at the butchery that would ensue from this craptastic translation.

I dunno -- I see at least one professional developer (who also worked in industry back in the day) in this thread who thinks it might be interesting, so perhaps your opinion about "good" and "real" pixel artists is a little off.

 

You really are trying to hard to hate me.  Its funny for sure.  But then again, its pretty pathetic and sad.  Grow up little boy.

In Mal's defense, you don't exactly make it difficult with responses like this.

[CheffoJeffo]

I was going to bring up Genesim too. He freaked out about this.  In Vigo's defense, he at least is rational.  Genesim couldnt calm down long enough to be cogent.

Actually, I think if Vigo read the pages that Xiaou has written on the subject (can't find a damned link), I think they would find some common ground  ... or at least more common ground that could be found with the BelligerantKoolAidMan!

[Malenko]

Its highly doubtful you are any good at pixel art if you even consider this to be an option.

 Any Real pixel artist would gawk immediately at the butchery that would ensue from this craptastic translation.

 You really are trying to hard to hate me.  Its funny for sure.  But then again, its pretty pathetic and sad.  Grow up little boy.

I dont try to hate you, I just like to make fun of you, its easy and good practice. Good pixel artist? I can't say, none of my work is really out there yet. RayB has seen it, a few others. My game is in dev and has been for a LONG time, we might get a beta out this year, but its just me and a buddy working on it for fun. I'll bite, here's a frame of the zombie and the sheet for the flower (SMB3 inspired)

I'd just LOVE to see some of your pixel art



Also, if you really want to know why I poke fun at you, it because in 1 thread you complain how you bruise easy from some genetic deficiency and in the next you want to fist fight Cheffo and follow that one up with how you hit a guy with your toe hard enough to knock him down. On top of all of that? NO sense of humor. I poked fun at donkbacka before he poked back and was pretty funny. He doesnt get butthurt anytime anyone says anything about him. Hes generally more liked on here then you and he said Centipede isnt a classic! lol

[Hoopz]

Don't forget when he "saw" his ghost in the hallway.   

[CheffoJeffo]

Also, if you really want to know why I poke fun at you, it because in 1 thread you complain how you bruise easy from some genetic deficiency and in the next you want to fist fight Cheffo and follow that one up with how you hit a guy with your toe hard enough to knock him down.

And here I thought Xiaou wanted to DeathPunch(tm) me in every thread ... guess I need to try harder!