WG 25k7193 problems

[coliveira]

Hello all

I have received amazing advice on this forum before and I'm hoping it can be duplicated for my monitor (a Wells Gardner 25K7193).  I'm looking to do a temporary mame conversion on an Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 cabinet that will be reverted back to it's original condition when my nephews are older.  (I know this is a bit offensive to some, but please believe I'm trying to leave everything in an easily convertible state!)

The trouble began when I moved the game home.  Somehow the "red" color began to come in and out (I think something broke loose in the move even though I thought we were extremely gentle).  I was able to temporarily "fix" the problem by jiggling some of these wires in the back of the machine, but it never held.  I didn't know if I needed soldering or what, but eventually I narrowed down the problem to these wires on the monitor.  Now I wish I had never made that discovery and kept trying names in the phone book!  Anyway, I'm attaching a link to the picture in case the photo doesn't work!  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5483901930/#   

Unfortunately, the "fix" didn't hold and things got worse.  Everything on the monitor eventually became really green when it was turned it on.  I jiggled the wires some more and the screen started rolling.  I was able to slow it down a bit using the dials in the front of the machine, but never actually stop it.  I tried to eliminate some of the extra wiring in the cabinet and change the ends (which I assumed were loose and causing the problem) that were attached to the monitor board.  I didn't realize that the wire connectors were apparently difficult to come by (couldn't get them at Ace or Radio Shack and neither had an idea where I could turn to).  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5483308819/#   

Since I had dumbly (is that a word?... just proves my intended use of it!) cut the wires without realizing that I couldn't get the wire connectors, I was reduced to "Portagee rigging" the wires.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5483902268/#    Mind you, this was only intended to be a temporary solution to see if my new strategy would work (which it didn't). 

Now my screen looks like this.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5483903028/#    No amount of jiggling seems to fix it!  I know the way I wired everything is not optimal, but it still seems to carry the volts as I've checked for continuity from the j-pac to the monitor board and I've also compared volts.  I don't know if the volts are the correct amount, but they are consistent at both places:  Red= 0.07, Green= 0.74, Blue = 1.59.

This leaves me at the following point.  I'd love suggestions as to what I may have done (blown a fuse - accidently disconnected something else - not sure what else!) or the name of a decent repair person in the Modesto, CA area.  I've called a couple of people and gotten no response.  I'd be willing to drive to the Sacramento or Bay Area if need be.  Please advise me if you are so able!

Thanks and have a great day.
Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

Initially I would have to say that there may be bad solder joints under that row of pins where you were jiggling the cable. (the pins it plugs into)
K7000's are notorious for developing cracked solder joints, your wiggling may have just opened them up enough to make them completely broken now.
So I would start by removing the chassis and going over ANY rough or cracked looking solder joints. There are other areas on these chassis that usually crack too, so would be a good time to go over the whole thing for longevity purposes. Including the neckboard.

Be sure to read up on discharging before trying to remove the large red anode wire that goes to the back of the tube.

[coliveira]

Kevin

Thanks for your response.  I remember seeing a video on youtube that discussed discharging a monitor so I'll start there.  I'm a big chicken when it comes to electricity, plus I've heard that going into picture tubes can be really dangerous.  Anyway, if I understand you correctly, you're basically saying to remove both of the "boards".  I don't have to remove the monitor too, do I?  I've included a picture.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5483658135/#  .  My plan includes:

1. Discharge the monitor.
2. Removing both "boards".  The one on the bottom that the wires plugged in which I believe to be the chassis and the one that has it's back to the picture with cardboard on the back which I believe to be the neckboard.  Am I correct on these assumptions?
3. I will then go over them and look for anything that looks a bit "rough" and try to resolder them.  I have no experience soldering, but I've been told there are many good videos of it on youtube.  Would I need to remove the old solder or simply add to it?  Obviously I don't want to go crazy and make any extra connections inadvertently. 
4.  Replace everything that was removed.

A very stupid question:  Do I need to do anything to recharge the monitor besides simply plugging it in?  I don't think I do, but I'd hate to take this for granted.

Thanks for all of your help.
Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

You seem to have the right idea on how to go about this.....just take it easy, be gentle, keep track of how things were removed.

A very stupid question:  Do I need to do anything to recharge the monitor besides simply plugging it in?  I don't think I do, but I'd hate to take this for granted.

The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked.

No, you do not have to "recharge" anything, the high voltage will do that on it's own once fired up again.
DO...discharge the tube hole again before you go to reconnect the anode cup into the back of the tube. (just in case it built up some residual voltage in the tube)

[coliveira]

Awesome.  Thanks for the advice and wish me luck!

Chris

[b3dr0ck]

Hey I'm pretty much right there with ya, maybe about a month ahead of you.

One note, the neckboard is likely attached with some silicon glue that will require you to cut through with a razor. 

[coliveira]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.  It's all of those little things adding up that's kicking my butt right now!  I'm not sure I would've undertaken this 'journey' if I knew what I were in for, but I suppose it's giving me the opportunity to learn about and try new things.  In the end, I suppose there is immense value in that.

May it work out for both of us (I couldn't help but noticing your post as well).

Chris

[smalltownguy]

I'm more than happy to assist in any way you need it too - I have that same monitor.

I spent all of yesterday transferring parts from a donor board to an ailing K7xxx board. I replaced the horizontal width coil (slug in mine was siezed and cracked), flyback (white knobbed one was showing cracks all over), new cap kit, and reflowed solder joints all over.

Hooked her up to a reclaimed tube I got from an old TV and we're good to go. Bulletproof, burn-free, minty fresh monitor.

Just to provide you with some perspective, I didn't even know what an anode WAS 6 months ago. If you're willing to learn, monitor repair can be learned. I'm no genius.

[Kevin Mullins]

One note, the neckboard is likely attached with some silicon glue that will require you to cut through with a razor. 

Oh, just to add to that...... do NOT twist the neckboard trying to get it to come loose if it's a bit sticky. It needs to pull STRAIGHT off so as not to damage any of the neck pins or crack the neck tube.

Sounds scary, but really it's not, just be gentle.

[smalltownguy]

Yeah, what he said 

I equate the fragility of the neck board to a cheap wine glass. Thick enough to stand up to the casual knock, but it will break if you tweak it or hit it the wrong way. I speak from experience.

I've found the easiest way to get the neck board off is to make sure there's no silicone glue holding it any more, then I gently work a very small flat blade screwdriver between the neck socket and the tube plug. Gently wiggling the neck board while turning the blade of the screw driver at 12, 3, 6, and 9 'o clock will eventually work the board off the neck socket pins. Once you have it off and understand how it connects, you'll have a better understanding of how it goes on and off. If you want to 'mist' the pins with some silicone spray (something NON CONDUCTIVE) it will make it easier to get on and off again in the future. But that's only if you have a REALLY tight socket.

[coliveira]

Alright, well you guys are awesome.  Thanks for the advice.  I am now sufficiently filled with enough false confidence to give this a go!  I figure as long as I'm extremely careful discharging it, there's really nothing I can do that a couple hundred dollars can't fix!  By the way, should I buy one of the discharging tools that I've been hearing so much about?  Is there a safe, free method?

Thanks
Chris

[smalltownguy]

The crude, yet effective way to discharge is with a long flat screwdriver with a plastic or rubber handle, and jumper cables. Wear gloves if you're unsure.

Clip one end of a cable to the screwdriver, and one end to the metal frame of the chassis.

Keep one hand in your pocket - lessens the chance that you can get shocked if something goes wrong.

Using left hand, slide screwdriver under the anode cap, making contact with the anode lead. If you hear a 'pop,' then you know you've made contact.

Lots of the Wells Gardner monitors have bleeder circuits, so you won't hear anything, because there's no stored charge.

[b3dr0ck]

I differ to those more experienced, but

a long flat headed screw driver, a decent heavy gauge wire (power cord), 2 alligator clips, maybe some electrical tape

and Youtube instructional videos

That's all you need to discharge your first monitor - that's what I did.  I was exciting in a "I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, arm trembling, 30,000 volts could leap to my hand, maybe I should watch that tutorial another time, do I need rubber souled shoes, living on the edge of danger - kind of exciting fun"

[coliveira]

LOL.  Something tells me I'll be watching it more than once and taking notes!

[coliveira]

Ok.  The good news is that I pulled the chassis and I'm still alive.  Even better, I think I can actually put it back!  My problem now is with the soldering.  Are you kidding me?  I have no idea where to start here!  Here's a picture of the back of the chassis in general.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5487825976/#sizes/l/in/photostream/  (I wish I knew how to actually put a picture instead of a link!)

Next is the part where I was jiggling the wires.  It doesn't look obviously bad to me like I was hoping.  Also, am I really supposed to get the solder so that they don't touch and make a big mess?  It doesn't seem like there's very much room!  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5487826010/#sizes/l/in/photostream/

Also, there's quite a bit of gunk (which I believe is the technical term).  Is that a problem?  http://www.flickr.com/photos/20507832@N05/5487826146/#sizes/l/in/photostream/

Please let me know if you see anything obvious or where a good place to start would be?

Thanks
Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

(I wish I knew how to actually put a picture instead of a link!)

When you hit REPLY...there is an ADITIONAL OPTIONS tab right below the box you write in, click that and there will be an ATTACH box.

[smalltownguy]

Ok.  The good news is that I pulled the chassis and I'm still alive.  Even better, I think I can actually put it back!

Good job! See, wasn't that hard, right?

My problem now is with the soldering.  Are you kidding me?  I have no idea where to start here!  Here's a picture of the back of the chassis in general.

Looks normal to me.

Next is the part where I was jiggling the wires.  It doesn't look obviously bad to me like I was hoping.  Also, am I really supposed to get the solder so that they don't touch and make a big mess?  It doesn't seem like there's very much room!

Do you have a soldering iron with a pencil tip? The big 'gun' style soldering irons are usually not suited for this kind of work.

Also, there's quite a bit of gunk (which I believe is the technical term).  Is that a problem?

That's just flux residue (helps the solder adhere to metal when soldering.) There's always a bit of flux visible in each solder joint.

Here's a picture of what a cracked solder joint looks like:



(by the way, to embed an image into your post like this, just type img tags around the address of your picture...like {img} and {/img} but with brackets instead of braces)

Look for cracked joints like that on the bottom of your chassis. Get a magnifying glass and use very good light -- sunlight, if you can. Don't be afraid to wiggle the posts with your fingernails to see if any are loose.

Let us know what you find out.

[Kevin Mullins]

That chassis looks really good actually.
I did this up on your pic just to show some of the more common areas on a K7000 that need touched up, most of yours looks to be in good shape, but just double check since you actually have it in front of you to look at.

Hard to tell in that second pic of the headers pins if there is any circular cracking on those solder joints. I know it's hard to get a good macro shot that close. But double check those, if in doubt just touch them up with a hot iron anyways.

Grab a good pic of your neckboard too while your at it, so we can look at it as well.

[Kevin Mullins]

Here's a picture of what a cracked solder joint looks like:

Great example. 
Sometimes they will also look like a perfect hairline circle/ring around the joint.

(by the way, to embed an image into your post like this, just type img tags around the address of your picture...like {img} and {/img} but with brackets instead of braces)

I always forget about the "embedding" option. 

[coliveira]

Holy crap!  You guys are amazing!  I think it hopped out at me like a scene from The Da Vinci Code after reading your posts.  It does look like the first 2 (if not 3) all have a bit of a circular crack!  Anyway, I'm trying to attach them straight away so I don't have to mess with flickr.  The first two are different views of the pins.  The 3rd one is the neckboard and the last one is my awesome soldering iron that is not opened yet.  It has a 5/32" end so I'm hoping that's small enough.  I know it's not great, but to be honest I'm probably not going to be using it often.  If it's totally unrealistic to do the job with it, please let me know though.

Also, I've looked over the rest of the solders and nothing really jumps out at me, but I'll keep looking.

Thanks again.
Chris

[smalltownguy]

Yep, you've got cracked joints. In a perfect world, what you'd do is suck off all of the solder on each bad joint, then resolder each one. But it should be acceptable to re-heat the solder and reflow each joint. As long as you see it pool up and re-cool nicely on each pin, you should be fine.

While you've got the chassis out, feel free to look it over and get familiar with it. Look over the rest of the joints while you're at it. But looking at your pictures it's clear your issues are coming from your video input pins.

90% sure that will fix your issues.

[smalltownguy]

FYI - the first 3 pins are red, green and blue, so at first your missing red was due to cracked joint number 1. When you wiggled the cord, you caused the cold joints at the green and blue pins to crack loose too, and at one point blue went out too, leaving you with just green.

[Kevin Mullins]

Yup.... thems be broke all right.

Heat, dab of solder while heating, remove heat....should fix it right up.
About 3 seconds each tops ought to do it.

The rest of that chassis really looks surprisingly good.
But like smalltownguy  said, take a good look over everything else while your there.
But I'd say I was 99% sure that'll fix the problem. 

[coliveira]

Thanks guys.  I made what I can only assume are the worst solders in the history of mankind tonight.  I felt like I had zero control over the solder at all.  I thought I was heating it and it wouldn't melt the solder, then suddenly it would, then it wouldn't, etc.  Hopefully I got it in the end.  I'll wire it up in the next few days and let you guys know if it worked out or not.

I'll have another once or twice over again to see if I can see any other problem areas.  In the end I'm hoping that even if I didn't get it, I can track down someone with better soldering skills than myself to clean up my mess.  It's really helpful just knowing where to start on it.  Thanks again for all of your help on this. 

[coliveira]

Well.  It looks like the search begins for someone that's better at soldering!  No luck on the monitor with my solders, but I'm encouraged that I at least know where to begin with the problem.  I'll look around for someone that's good at soldering (my brother thinks he knows someone) and if I can't find anyone I'll invest in a solder sucker (or whatever they're called) and practice until I figure out what I'm doing!

Thanks again for all of your help and I'll let you know how and when the issue gets resolved.

Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

Is all the solder you have what came with that iron kit ?
Is it SOLID solder ?

I typically use .032" rosin core 60/40 solder for most everything. (can get it easily at Radio Shack)
Header pins like the ones you're doing require just a bit more heat than most solder points, because the heat gets transferred to the entire pin. What's happening is the joint is probably cooling before the solder flows smoothly across the joint. Sometimes just a bit longer with the iron will help, but no extra solder if you have already applied some. The rosin flux will also help the solder flow smoother.

Just takes practice. 

And yes, a $10.00 solder sucker is handy to have around to do cleanup work.

[coliveira]

Well, I tried it again based on the advice I received in the last post (thanks).  Seemed to go a lot more smoothly and the solder certainly looks much better, but still the same result...

I think I'm going to call around to try to get some quotes and go from there.

Thanks
Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

Whereabouts are you located ?
Maybe someone on here is local enough to help out.

[coliveira]

Modesto, Ca and I'd be willing to drive!  Hell, I'd be willing to box this bad boy up and mail it if the price was right!  Let me know.

Thanks
Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

Just noticed your SYNC input was backwards in one of your original pictures.
Composite sync is the pin on the end, you have it going to a ground in that pic. (white wire)
Be sure to flip that connector around if you haven't already done so.

[coliveira]

OMFG!!!!!!!  I can't believe it!!!!!  I could not for the life of me figure out why there were two grounds so close together....  I have absolutely lost my mind!  Well, that about ties it up for the moment I guess.  Even my solders appear decent and I'm getting red!  You guys are awesome and I really owe you one!!!  Kevin, thank you so much for going over it until you found the fix.  I could've lived 100 years and never realized that I crossed those wires...

Anyway, thanks.  If you guys are ever in the area, let me know.  The beer is on me!

Chris

[Kevin Mullins]

Well alrighty then !!   
Just glad to have been of some help to ya.

You know you have to post an obligatory picture of it working now. 

[smalltownguy]

Yes, please, working pics!

[coliveira]

Ha ha.  I'm going to hereby nominate myself for the Darwin Awards as it relates to Monitors for the year 2011. 

So, I got these pics of my guys playing UMK3.  Unfortunately I neglected to screw down chassis before doing so.  Needless to say, as they banged the crap out of it, the picture began rolling and then I lost it completely (about 10 seconds after these pictures were taken)!  DOH!!! 

Anyway, after about 20 minutes of pulling things apart and reconnecting them, inspecting my "soldering" (BTW, when I do it, it's "soldering" and not simply soldering - pic included of that too), I finally got it going again - without green...

Anyway, I fiddled a bit with the j-pac connection and got green back.  Anyway, it seems pretty stable - for now!  And yes, the chassis is now screwed down...

Thanks again.

[b3dr0ck]

Congrats you are an inspiration!  That's it, I'm going to go buy an soldering iron!

[Kevin Mullins]

inspecting my "soldering" (BTW, when I do it, it's "soldering" and not simply soldering - pic included of that too)

I have seen MUCH worse jobs than that.

Glad to see the monitor going and that progress in the learning curve is continuing as well. 

[coliveira]

Well, luckily no pics exist between my first soldering job and this one!  I'm just so happy that it's working for not and it saved me $60-70.  Seriously, I never would've even attempted it again if not for your post.  That's 100% honest. 

Thanks again for the encouragement and advice (smalltownguy and b3dr0ck too).  This is for my nephews.  My brother (their dad) and their uncle (other side of the family) both said I was nuts and wouldn't be able to pull it off.  They'd have been right too, if it weren't for forums like this and guys like you to help out!

Now, like Charlie Sheen, WINNING!!!

[smalltownguy]

Well, luckily no pics exist between my first soldering job and this one!  I'm just so happy that it's working for not and it saved me $60-70.  Seriously, I never would've even attempted it again if not for your post.  That's 100% honest.  

Thanks again for the encouragement and advice (smalltownguy and b3dr0ck too).  This is for my nephews.  My brother (their dad) and their uncle (other side of the family) both said I was nuts and wouldn't be able to pull it off.  They'd have been right too, if it weren't for forums like this and guys like you to help out!

Now, like Charlie Sheen, WINNING!!!

ahahahaha!!!  "Not Bi-polar....Bi WINNING."

Good stuff. Glad we could help you out. Enjoy playing your game!