Lame largely-my-fault situation

[shmokes]

So, in the Summer of 1993 2003 I sat for and passed my Network+ certification exam.  I immediately received a print-out of my score report, which I gave to my professor.  I was in a class with a policy that any student who passed the exam before the end of the semester got an automatic "A" regardless of any of the class coursework.  So, at the time I was already working full-time as a network administrator and in school full-time and I just kind of forgot about it till like a year later and I was like, WTF, where's my Network+ certificate?

I called CompTIA and they said, "We have no record of you taking the exam, check with the testing facility."  Only, I took the exam on-campus on the last day that my campus was an official Prometric (one of two CompTIA test adminsitrators) testing facility.  So my testing facility hadn't existed for like a year.  I contacted Prometric and they referred me back to CompTIA and then I was really irritated but got busy (working full time and school full time) and I didn't need it for anything in particular (was already a full-time network administrator and the certification wouldn't have given me a pay bump or anything like that).  Oh yeah, and my professor didn't keep my score report, so I couldn't get it back from him.  So I just put it on the backburner and it stayed there for a few years.  

Then I got a wild hair and tried half-heartedly to look into it again a couple years later, but I was about to go to law school and figured I'd never work in the computer industry again.  So when I ran into more people just shrugging and saying, "We don't see any records of you at all," I just rolled my eyes and forgot about it.

So now, I'm applying for a special skills and talents French work visa and it would be really useful because France has a major shortage of IT skill so they're much less stingy about letting foreigners come in with those skills.  I've written up a project that combines legal and IT skills, and that Network+ certificate would look really good attached to it.  I have 8 years experience as a network administrator and another year as tech support for Packard Bell, but I only minored in information systems in school, my majors aren't computer related.

So now I've REALLY been contacting the companies and not letting them just dodge the issue.  I was communicating with Prometric back and forth when suddenly they abruptly went back to the old, "We don't issue certificates, contact CompTIA."  I responded that I don't want my certificate, I want my score report, and they just didn't respond.  So I waited a couple days and sent another response saying the same thing and got crickets.  So I called and a woman was miraculously able to pull up my file in about 30 seconds and she said that it shows that I was a no-show for that exam.  

It's so obnoxious.  I told them that I presumably had to check in with the front desk at the testing center and sign something and show ID.  They said they don't keep those logs that far back.  I'm dealing with their legal department now because I told them that I would bring a law suit for breach of contract and that my bank statement shows that I paid for the exam and that my professor will testify to seeing my score report and basing my grade on it (he would) and that even if they thought I wouldn't have sufficient evidence to prove that I ever passed the exam that I'd sue them for negligence for not having the records.  But it's a giant bluff.  Statutes of limitations are run for both causes of actions.

I talked to their legal counsel today and he's going to call me back tomorrow after conferring with CompTIA.  But at best they'll offer to let me take the test again for free which is lame for multiple reasons.  For one, I have no time.  Second, I haven't studied for the exam in eight years and I've spent the last four years entirely out of the industry (studying law).  Third, when I took the exam it granted lifetime certification, but now CompTIA certifications expire after 3 years unless you pay them annually to participate in online continuing education they're offering.

So, I guess the moral of the story is, don't procrastinate, and demand what's due to you even if you think you'll never need it cos who knows what you'll need down the road.  Or something.


edit: heh . . . took the exam in 2003, not 1993

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

a lifetime certification for technology sounds kind of bogus to me anyway is there anything from that 93 material you still use other than IPv4?

[Samstag]

Just put yourself down as having that certification.  If they're skeptical, show them how you terminate a 10base2 line and watch them eat crow.

[ChadTower]

a lifetime certification for technology sounds kind of bogus to me anyway

Though I'm sure the French visa issuers won't care this was also my first thought.

[leapinlew]

Just put yourself down as having that certification.  If they're skeptical, show them how you terminate a 10base2 line and watch them eat crow.

Comptia changed their positon on lifetime certs:

As a follow-up to our announcement in January, CompTIA is updating its certification policy for CompTIA A+, CompTIA Network+ and CompTIA Security+ certifications. Starting Jan. 1, 2011, individuals will need to complete continuing education to maintain certification. Since you're already certified - your certification status will not be affected by the changes.

The new policy will only apply to candidates who:

Certify on or after Jan. 1, 2011
Certified prior to Jan. 1, 2011 and choose to enroll in the continuing education program

That stinks dude. I had a similar issue. I took my test in 98 and moved a couple times. I lost my actual certificate as well as my test score. I had a copy of my certificate with my comptia ID on it. Even with my comptia ID I wasn't having luck getting a copy of my certificate. They simply wouldn't respond to emails.

last year I took the security+ and after I had passed they sent me login info for the comptia website and there was my A+ cert. If they have you as a no-show - that sucks. Good luck.

[shmokes]

Yeah . . . of course there's something a bit asinine about a lifetime technology certification (on the other hand, I don't have to renew my minor in information systems either).  This is perfectly illustrated by the fact that I probably can't sit for the test cold and pass it today (and I haven't had any of that study material for years).  But I don't care about what the certification stands for.  Like Chad hinted at, I only care that the certification could be the difference between my work Visa being approved or denied.  And whether their policy was good or bad, I still studied for it, paid for it, sat for the test and passed.  They owe me a Network+ cert.

Anyway, I'll update after I talk to their legal counsel again today.  I don't expect much.  My hope is that I can scare them into getting off their asses and send some people into their storage units to find my records and the hard drive that has my test on it.  I'm sure it exists.  If I can't get them to find my records, I'm screwed, cos there's no way they could issue me a certificate on the my honor that I really took and passed the exam.  But my hopes aren't high, cos like I said, I'd have virtually no chance of winning a law suit.

[leapinlew]

So, in the Summer of 1993 I sat for and passed my Network+ certification exam.  

I meant to ask you this before, but... 1993? You sure about that date? When I took my A+ in 1998, I thought Comptia only had the A+ cert.

[shmokes]

Lmao, did I say 1993?  I meant 2003.  I took my A+ in 1996.  I think I was 17 then, so yeah, I would have been like 14 in '93.   

[ChadTower]

So you're depending on IT certification professionals to have a retrievable backup of customer data?

You're screwed.

[ahofle]

That really sucks.  I had to get their Security+ certification before the end of last year for that ridiculous 'lifetime' certification thing.  I can't imagine having to do that again because they lost my certification file.
I agree that you should just put the certification down on your resume anyway. 

[shmokes]

For anything else, maybe.  For the Visa, copies of diplomas and the like are explicitly required.  If I list it, I need to include it.

[leapinlew]

For anything else, maybe.  For the Visa, copies of diplomas and the like are explicitly required.  If I list it, I need to include it.

Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug.

Sounds like you need a plan B.

[shmokes]

Getting caught using forged credentials to obtain a legal job would likely result in a permanent revocation of my license to practice law in the United States.  I'll probably just hope the rest of my resume is enough.

[leapinlew]

I'll probably just hope

There you go! Thats the spirit. Also add Change and Believe to your resume. Worked for the president.

[shmokes]

Just got off the phone with the lawyer.  No change.  He just apologized and said the best they could do is offer to have me retake the test for free.  I asked if it would at least be grandfathered in so it would be a lifetime certification.  He said he'd check with CompTIA but thinks almost certainly not.  Makes me want to choke a ---smurfette---.  Oh well . . . ya win some, ya lose some.

[ChadTower]

Sounds like a real  mickey mouse operation offering those credentials.  Good to know next time I'm evaluating a resume.

In my experience most certification outfits are like that.  I have hired way too many guys with a handful of certifications that don't know a damn thing outside of exactly what may have been on whatever exam they took.  No ability to understand the concepts and apply them outside of their specific training.  Usually no desire to try, either, which is why they have those certs rather than a degree or real world experience.

[shmokes]

The document would be forged even if I did know my serial number.  Even if that were not the case, CompTIA says they have no record of me taking the exam and they are the certifying authority.  The fact that they're wrong may give me a cause of action against them, but it doesn't give me the legal right to create my own certificate.  I'm quite sure the ABA would see it this way.  And everyone else (like the French consulate) would assume that I was just lying about my qualifications.

[ahofle]

Sounds like a real  mickey mouse operation offering those credentials.  Good to know next time I'm evaluating a resume.

In my experience most certification outfits are like that.  I have hired way too many guys with a handful of certifications that don't know a damn thing outside of exactly what may have been on whatever exam they took.  No ability to understand the concepts and apply them outside of their specific training.  Usually no desire to try, either, which is why they have those certs rather than a degree or real world experience.

+1
I wouldn't have wasted time on this 'certification' if it weren't being forced on us by our customer. 
I have found a good way to identify those clueless individuals you mentioned...they are usually the ones that put their CompTIA certifications in their email signatures. 

[leapinlew]

In my experience most certification outfits are like that.  I have hired way too many guys with a handful of certifications that don't know a damn thing outside of exactly what may have been on whatever exam they took.  No ability to understand the concepts and apply them outside of their specific training.  Usually no desire to try, either, which is why they have those certs rather than a degree or real world experience.

Thats just sad Chad. I love it when I get someone with a certification or two. It pretty much gives me all the information I need to effectively interview them. They are giving you their skill set on a silver platter and you can't figure out what they know? Sounds to me like you shouldn't be in charge of hiring anyone. I have hired some great employees who all had different methods of gaining their tech skill. If someone says they are Windows 2003 certified, I know they should have a solid grasp on AD, TCP/IP, Groups, Permissions etc. I can ask them very specific questions to see if they understand the concepts.

While I agree that there are plenty of green individuals with only IT certs. There are also plenty of green people with degrees and fresh from the military. I respect degrees, certifications and military experience, but I don't know what experiences a person derived from their education until I meet with them. If someone slacks their way through college, they won't be any better than someone who studied for an exam. In many ways a self taught certified person has more drive and desire than someone with a degree.

[ChadTower]

They are giving you their skill set on a silver platter and you can't figure out what they know? Sounds to me like you shouldn't be in charge of hiring anyone.

Sadly, it's not always that simple.  Because of existing service contracts I have to "hire" people from specific contract firms.  These firms are in India.  It's common to interview an individual by telephone.  That makes it harder.  Many of these firms hand out certificates like napkins.  I also strongly suspect that it's common to interview one person and an entirely different person arrives from India two weeks later.  That is as much systemic as an issue with certifications, I know.

My experience hiring local people with certificates isn't that they do not know what they are supposed to know.  It's that they don't understand what they are supposed to know.  They can do exactly what they were taught in that class - by rote process.  They usually cannot take knowledge gained from that and apply it to similar situations or extrapolate it themselves to more advanced situations.  I have been told more than once something like "I am certified in X, not Y, so I can't do that" even when Y is really the same thing as X but a slightly different flavor.

Also, drives me insane when someone says "sorry, not my thing" rather than "don't know that, give me a couple extra days to study it and I'll figure it out".  Personal issue.  I guess what  I'm saying is that the guy with a degree is trained in the concepts, not the technology, and conceptual knowledge is better.  I have never seen someone fresh out of the military, no matter how green, say anything other than "I'll find a way to get it done".  Nine times out of ten they do and on that tenth time they will let you know early in the process what else they need.

[leapinlew]

Also, drives me insane when someone says "sorry, not my thing" rather than "don't know that, give me a couple extra days to study it and I'll figure it out".  

While I appreciate someone giving 100%, I also appreciate someone not wasting my time. I think people knowing where they are strong and where they aren't is a skill most people don't have. Most people believe they can do anything given enough resources and the truth is anything but. "Not my thing" isn't the best way to phrase it, but it's true. Some people will only be good at basic computer tech services. Trying to get a windows tier 1 helpdesk support person to design a global linux mail farm isn't "their thing" and someone needs to say it.

My experience hiring local people with certificates isn't that they do not know what they are supposed to know.  It's that they don't understand what they are supposed to know.  They can do exactly what they were taught in that class - by rote process.  They usually cannot take knowledge gained from that and apply it to similar situations or extrapolate it themselves to more advanced situations.  I have been told more than once something like "I am certified in X, not Y, so I can't do that" even when Y is really the same thing as X but a slightly different flavor.

Do you think a person like the one you just described would be any different had they attended college? I don't. The trait of knowing how to apply knowledge to different scenarios isn't common and it certainly doesn't only exist in people with certifications. It's what separates the good IT folks from the poor.

FWIW, I see the same prejudice towards college grads. I think it has more to do with the IT career field since it is filled with people without a diploma or certificates. They are anxious to prove that you don't need any type of education to be a good network admin, developer, etc. Hence you end up with all these "Certification sucks" and "College kids don't know jack" statements.

[MonMotha]

Also, drives me insane when someone says "sorry, not my thing" rather than "don't know that, give me a couple extra days to study it and I'll figure it out".  Personal issue.  I guess what  I'm saying is that the guy with a degree is trained in the concepts, not the technology, and conceptual knowledge is better.  I have never seen someone fresh out of the military, no matter how green, say anything other than "I'll find a way to get it done".  Nine times out of ten they do and on that tenth time they will let you know early in the process what else they need.

This one depends a little on how close the given "thing" is to something that is "their thing".  For example, I am routinely asked to do enclosure related work as part of electronic design (i.e. "put that PCB, display, connectors, etc. into a box so I can sell it").  I can certainly do some of that, and I'll draw up specs and such to give to an enclosure person or look for an off-the-shelf box any time, but designing tooling for plastic injection molding or doing 3D mechanical details for metal stamping isn't really "my thing".  If you REALLY wanted me to do it, I could go learn how to do it (I'm somewhat familiar with the process), and I can usually take on fairly simple boxes myself, but when I say it's not "my thing", I'm attempting to imply that you'd likely be better economically served if you were to find someone who is already skilled in that field.  It's a field unto itself, after all.

You COULD hire a plumber to put a roof on your house, and a skilled plumber could probably figure it out and, given enough time/resources to learn and practice, put a perfectly serviceable roof on your house...or you could call a roofer.

[ChadTower]

Trying to get a windows tier 1 helpdesk support person to design a global linux mail farm isn't "their thing" and someone needs to say it.

Tier 1 helpdesk people are $10/hr phone jockeys.  They don't have IT certs.  I'm talking more like "I am trained in Weblogic, not Tomcat, so don't assign me any apps that might go into Tomcat".  "No, I can't help debug that issue - it's on an AIX box.  I'm a UNIX admin."  

Do you think a person like the one you just described would be any different had they attended college? I don't. The trait of knowing how to apply knowledge to different scenarios isn't common and it certainly doesn't only exist in people with certifications. It's what separates the good IT folks from the poor.

I fully agree.  And I'm not talking IT, really, but in general.  My experience is that people who can do that come from longer foundation based training because that's their nature.  

FWIW, I see the same prejudice towards college grads. I think it has more to do with the IT career field since it is filled with people without a diploma or certificates. They are anxious to prove that you don't need any type of education to be a good network admin, developer, etc. Hence you end up with all these "Certification sucks" and "College kids don't know jack" statements.

I work a lot closer to app development than raw IT.  That is probably a key difference here.