Annual job review today: When is it OK to speak up about being underpaid?

[javeryh]

In about 20 minutes I'm going in for my annual review.  Last summer they cut everyone's pay by 15% and there is a strong indication that another 15% cut is coming (which would be paid next March assuming I don't get laid off by then).  This is really unacceptable and I want to say something but I don't want to sound like a jerk.  Should I speak up?  I think at some point you have to and a 30% pay cut in less than a year warrants it, right?  Ugh.  I hate this.

[Malenko]

15% off of your pay now is only 12.75% of your original pay (so only 27.75% instead of 30%) if that makes you feel any better. You should be fine to mention it, but you've gotta draw a line............... pay cut or unemployment?

[javeryh]

I'm not sure it makes me feel any better... It still seems like a lot.  I should add that I think I'm liked here and I've never had a bad review or anyone tell me I'm not doing a good job, etc.  Every year it's "keep doing what you are doing" and that's about it.  They have also had 3 rounds of layoffs and I'm still here so that says something, I think.  I am now the only person in my office at my level (which is depressing) but I am easily replaceable since so many people are out of work. 

 

[shmokes]

It's pretty tough.  But also keep in mind that you are probably underestimating how replaceable you are.  It is generally really expensive to replace an employee and get the new person up to speed.  Also, you are obviously a somewhat valued employee since you haven't been laid off, so while they may be able to replace you it's impossible for them to know whether they're replacing you with someone like you or someone like all the people they already laid off.

At any rate, yeah, you gotta draw the line somewhere. 

[Fordman]

By chance, have you asked how the company as a whole is doing? Is it just lower level employees getting a hit in pay or everyone have the same equity in sacrifice (my guess the managers and upper level management havent taken a single hit)? Usually the management doesnt take a hit because they are told to cut cost and usually its either their pay or the lower level workers. 10 times out of 10, they cut the lower level pay. Have you casually asked others in the office if they have been cut or feel like only a certain group have been cut.

Fordman

[AtomSmasher]

The way to speak up is to find another job while you're still working there.

Thats basically my plan, although I did speak up a month or so ago and asked for a raise, but I got denied (I was told soon...which is what they've been telling me for about 6 months now).  Last week they announced their first round of layoffs which I survived, but it looks like there will be another round in a month or two and I don't feel like sticking around to find out.  Currently my best bet is a boring job with the County, which would actually be a good thing since it's pays 50% more, has full benefits, and 30 min shorter commute (so an hour round trip less driving).  The problem is the County takes forever to do anything, so it's another 3 weeks until my second interview with them.  The nice thing is I got an actual score from my first interview, and I think a 95/100 makes the odds pretty high that I'll get it.

[javeryh]

Ugh.  It is definitely depressing.  My review is any minute now...  I should also add that I make LESS now in 2010 than I did in 2006 when I started here.  It just doesn't seem right.  This place is (supposedly) doing very well but these cuts are across the board for everyone.  I don't know.

[Dartful Dodger]

This might be too little too late, but are you busy at work?

If you're doing a lot of work and they are cutting your pay so the guys that aren't working can keep their job then you have something to speak up about.  If you are doing 18% less work then losing 15% of your pay means you are actually getting a 3% raise.

my company always seems to slow down at the end of year, which is when we get our reviews.  It's hard to say I deserve more when I spend 1/4 of day on the arcade controls message board.

[Fordman]

My wife had once worked in an office that when the office manager was allowed to give pay raises of say 3% to all of the employees, what he did was be creative for himself. He gave 2% to each employee, but kept the whole office's other 1% for himself on top of what he was supposed to get. This had been going on for years until he hired his daughter and he was giving raises again, gave his daughter the full amount, but everyone else got the screwjob. His daughter blabbed to everyone else that she had gotten the full amount, not knowing that everyone else was getting screwed. All the office employees made a complaint to corporate, they did their 'internal investigation' and found that the manager did 'no wrong'. The employees then contacted the Service Employees International Union, the company convinced the workers not to join, gave them their correct raises with interest and fired the office manager. A year later, they joined the SEIU anyway because the company said they had put a 5 year wage freeze on their office because of the previous wage bump and interest. After joining the SEIU, they didnt get a money in pocket wage increase, but they did have their health coverage fully paid and 6 paid personal days a year.

Fordman

[javeryh]

Wow that's a crazy story Fordman.

yeah, I'm busy at work.  I generally work from 8:30 - 7 (year round, no vacations) but it is not unusual for me to be in the office until 10pm or later.  I carry a blackberry and work weekends, etc.  Since I'm salaried, the actual hours don't matter as much.  They did almost exactly what I thought they were going to do - no raise but now I can receive a "bonus" next March which would make the total compensation equal to what I was making before the first 15% cut - if I'm still employed here.  Big if since they are letting people go left and right.  I'm not happy. 

[Dartful Dodger]

Sorry about the review.

You're meeting was short.  With my company, the worse the outcome of the review the longer the review is.

They go through a long song and dance about how they appreciate the work I do but the company can't afford any increase in pay... blah blah blah.  If they’re giving me a good raise they just came out and told me and the meeting ends with everybody smiling.

I've been lucky the last two reviews(out of have been good, but I'm worried about next year’s.

Right now I'm just grateful to be employed.

[fatfingers]

A good friend once told me "It's your bosses job to pay you as little as possible and still keep you at your job".  The longer I'm around, the more this seems true.  My company has been freezing pay for the last 2 years.  CEO: $1 million bonus.  Bonus.  Yes, on top of his already insane salary.  All the while laying people off left and right.

Still, I feel lucky to have my job even though I basically hate it.  Last year's review for me: "you're doing a great job, keep it up".  Then, I find out I was rated like a 2.2 out of a 5?  Great job?  WTF?  I hate corporate America.

[drventure]

The nice thing is I got an actual score from my first interview

That's very unusual, but I wish more places would do something like that. Thing is, i'd imagine no one would want to put anything sharply negative in such a review (under possibility of suites etc), so I wonder how useful they really would be.

Dang, working 8:30 to 10 regularly  ?

Ouch, your actual hourly wage drops precipitously in situations like that. I always add in commute time as well. I've worked for many companies that are totally fine with paying you for travel time when you fly to a client and have to stay over, but that 1.5 hours or more of commute every day, just so you can "be in the office"? And what the heck happened to 9-5 anyway. Now, it's "8 hour+ work day, and lunches don't count".

Sorry, stepping down from the 

Don't know what the job market is where you are, but seriously, I'd be hitting the job boards hard and relentlessly till I came up with something else. There's better out there. Hmm, actually, that's what I AM doing....

[javeryh]

I'm starting the job hunt today.  If I decide to commute to the city (assuming I can find a job there) I'd be looking at a minimum of 50% increase in pay.  I left the city a few years ago because I hated the commute (I took a pay cut) but the money has become too large to ignore now.  Since I left salaries have increased by a LOT there but I haven't gotten jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in 4 years - not even enough to keep up with inflation and not one single bonus yet "I'm doing great and everyone likes me".  It's crap and they know it.

It is totally true about how they want to pay you as little as possible and still keep you at your job.  I mean, I've been told that it's our job to charge our clients exactly $1 less than the amount that would cause them to complain or go to someone else.  It's the same concept.

[AtomSmasher]

The nice thing is I got an actual score from my first interview

That's very unusual, but I wish more places would do something like that. Thing is, i'd imagine no one would want to put anything sharply negative in such a review (under possibility of suites etc), so I wonder how useful they really would be.

I didn't get any comments or real feedback about the interview, only a number which basically just lets me know that the interview did go as well as I thought it did.  The score also places me into "tier 1" and I believe when they do second interviews they first call back everyone from tier 1, then if they decide theres no one there they want, they call in tier 2, etc.

[HanoiBoi]

Wow that's a crazy story Fordman.

yeah, I'm busy at work.  I generally work from 8:30 - 7 (year round, no vacations) but it is not unusual for me to be in the office until 10pm or later.  I carry a blackberry and work weekends, etc.  Since I'm salaried, the actual hours don't matter as much.  They did almost exactly what I thought they were going to do - no raise but now I can receive a "bonus" next March which would make the total compensation equal to what I was making before the first 15% cut - if I'm still employed here.  Big if since they are letting people go left and right.  I'm not happy. 

'No vacations' meaning you don't get them, or you don't take them?  Aside from monetary compensation, you could negotiate for vacation days and a general better quality of life.

When you ask for a raise and get the 'trust me, I fought for you' cookie cutter response from your boss, even if you don't get that raise, the information, delivery and body language from your boss can tell you a lot.  You'll know if they are really fighting for you or if they are completely BS'ing you.  That info should help you decide whether to 'keep doing what you're doing' and working til 10pm every night, or to ease back on your availability and make time for yourself.  There is life outside of work, right?  Your bosses know that, even if they don't let on. 

On the contrary, though, I did have a boss that you couldn't beat to work if you tried.  He also felt the need to work late, even when it was not absolutely necessary in the company's eyes.  After I saw this for a couple years, I then saw him bumming pretty bad when he went through a divorce.

[javeryh]

'No vacations' meaning you don't get them, or you don't take them?  Aside from monetary compensation, you could negotiate for vacation days and a general better quality of life.

No vacations meaning I'm not really allowed to take them (believe me, I want to).  2 years ago everyone used to get 4 weeks vacation.  They then did away with vacation altogether and changed the policy to "as long as you can bill 2250 hours you can take as much vacation as you want" which is almost impossible to do.  To give you an idea, I've been out of school for going on 7 years and I've never hit 2250 hours billed (big difference from hours in the office).  So basically, this policy translates into "no vacation".  No one (other than the senior bosses) takes vacation anymore.

When you ask for a raise and get the 'trust me, I fought for you' cookie cutter response from your boss, even if you don't get that raise, the information, delivery and body language from your boss can tell you a lot.  You'll know if they are really fighting for you or if they are completely BS'ing you.  That info should help you decide whether to 'keep doing what you're doing' and working til 10pm every night, or to ease back on your availability and make time for yourself.  There is life outside of work, right?  Your bosses know that, even if they don't let on. 

I totally agree.  They were just kind of shrugging their shoulders and really had no satisfactory responses to my questions.  They couldn't even answer "how did you determine my salary?" which is pathetic. 

On the contrary, though, I did have a boss that you couldn't beat to work if you tried.  He also felt the need to work late, even when it was not absolutely necessary in the company's eyes.  After I saw this for a couple years, I then saw him bumming pretty bad when he went through a divorce.

This is the head of my office exactly.  He is at his desk every morning without fail by 7AM and stays most nights past 7PM.  He also treats Saturdays like any other day of the week - in at 7AM.  His family must hate him.

[shmokes]

"as long as you can bill 2250 hours you can take as much vacation as you want" which is almost impossible to do . . . . big difference from hours in the office

I thought only big law firms had billable hour requirements like that.  Anyway, there was one guy at the firm where I interned last summer who worked like a maniac.  One morning I got to work early (7:30am) because I had stuff I needed to do and I rode the elevator up with him as he happened to arrive at the same time.  When I got to my desk I saw that he had sent me an email just before leaving the office at 3 am.  And it was totally not a crunch time.  ---maternal-smurf--- just worked all the time.  But the associate for whom I worked most of the time told me he used to be even worse and that two years previous he was sort of reprimanded for billing over 3000 hours in a year.  The firm told him that they appreciate hard work, but that kind of work was unhealthy.  3000 hours.  

[javeryh]

I thought only big law firms had billable hour requirements like that.  

Bingo. 

I know people that work like that and I really feel sorry for them. 

[JeepMonkey]

I couldn't imagine working in an environment like that.

I work for an employee owned engineering and construction firm with 3000 employees.  Just about all of our profit at the end of the year is given back in bonuses (immediate) or stock and cash (retirement).  And the bonus are disptributed well, not all at the top with a few crumbs for the regular folk.

Reviews are with your supervisor directly.  Everything is based on a 1 - 5 point scale and all scores are discussed individually.

This is the only company I have known, so to hear companies acting like yours just sounds terrible.

[Epyx]

I'm starting the job hunt today.

I was going to say...the biggest raises I ever got myself have been through a new job...its sad but what happens in many companies is that they tend to pigeon hole you into a role and don't have the vision to see you beyond that. 

I generally stay at a job 3 to 5 years...enough for experience and to not seem like a job hopper...but in my Industry (IT) 3 to 5 years is plenty.  Every job hop has seen at least 15 - 20% increase in pay...compared to the measly annuals you tend to get staying at a place.

I don't have an issue with this because unlike my father's generation...I work to live...I don't live to work.  I take pride in my work...but also in my take home pay.  As a final note...the job hopping also helps with that all important benefits/perks negotiation. It is *usually* much easier to negotiate up front than during an annual review when they feel they already have you by the short and curly's.

[fatfingers]

I couldn't imagine working in an environment like that.

I work for an employee owned engineering and construction firm with 3000 employees.  Just about all of our profit at the end of the year is given back in bonuses (immediate) or stock and cash (retirement).  And the bonus are disptributed well, not all at the top with a few crumbs for the regular folk.

Reviews are with your supervisor directly.  Everything is based on a 1 - 5 point scale and all scores are discussed individually.

This is the only company I have known, so to hear companies acting like yours just sounds terrible.

Consider your job situation very fortunate.

[Dartful Dodger]

I have to track my hours too.

Right now I'm tracking this under web design for a store chain.

In an hour I'll be tracking me taking a dump under video editing for an educational documentary.

[RayB]

yeah, I'm busy at work.  I generally work from 8:30 - 7 (year round, no vacations) but it is not unusual for me to be in the office until 10pm or later.  I carry a blackberry and work weekends, etc.  Since I'm salaried, the actual hours don't matter as much.  

You mean the hours DO matter much. If you're on salary and not getting overtime, not getting vacation time (aren't there laws against that?) then yeah, you DO have to care about the hours. Divide your salary up by the ACTUALY time you put in and figure out your ACTUAL hourly rate. You might just be insulted enough to wake you up and get off your butt and find another job or at least stop bending over for them. sheesh.

[ark_ader]

Offer your employer a 17% cut in pay, and advise them you do this for the company and understand their situation.

When things get better your employer will remember your selfless act and reward you.

You will not see the pay cut in your salary, if you do just stay away from buying cabs for a year. 

[shardian]

I hate corporate America too. I'm ready to get a Union job so I don't have to wonder how bad I'm getting screwed in pay. I'm unemployed right now...and I'm loving it! I soooooooo hated my job. We're pretty financially prepared for something like this, so I'm not worried about money for quite a while. My company also had an ESOP, and I'll be collecting that big hunk of cash this summer. That's like free money.

So for now I'm working on games to sell and doing long delayed home projects since I worked too much. Since I'm at a career crossroads anyway, I am applying to the special teacher transition program to be a middle/high school math/physics teacher. Full time teacher job right out of the gate, full tuition payed, and a free laptop to do the coursework on. It's a paycut from what I could make at another engineering job, but the thought of working 7-5 + a long commute and being made to feel guilty to take a vacation just makes my stomach turn. I want that teacher's schedule REAL bad. The program director already told me there would be no problem getting in. Besides, teaching is something I've always wanted to do. I didn't do it in college because I was convinced only losers go the teaching route. Of course those same convincing people also told me I'd be driving sports cars and living in mansions going the engineer route...I should have had a clue when I noticed the Engineers at the Corps of Engineers drove ---smurfy--- cars!!!

In the meantime, I have to apply to at least one ---smurfy--- engineering job a week for unemplyment...

[Loafmeister]

yeah, I'm busy at work.  I generally work from 8:30 - 7 (year round, no vacations) but it is not unusual for me to be in the office until 10pm or later.  I carry a blackberry and work weekends, etc.  Since I'm salaried, the actual hours don't matter as much.  

Yeah mean, the hours DO matter much. If you're on salary and not getting overtime, not getting vacation time (aren't there laws against that?) then yeah, you DO have to care about the hours. Divide your salary up by the ACTUALY time you put in and figure out your ACTUAL hourly rate. You might just be insulted enough to wake you up and get off your butt and find another job or at least stop bending over for them. sheesh.

You beat me to it.  What 3rd world country do you live in Javeryh?  In Canada, the company has to give you at least your 4% (equates to 2 weeks vacation per year, it's the friggin law!  Let me know where you live so I know where not to move to... ever!

I'm sorry to hear of the situation you're in. The cutbacks & pay cuts are one thing, but around here, crazy hours can happen, but there is acceptable recompensation and at the very least, that 2 weeks vacation turns into a "pay increase", with you in on the decision making process.

I assume there might be exceptions but glad I'm living in Canada and typically this isn't the norm and the labour board has had some say (well, maybe I'm ignorant? Anyone?).

edit: corrected awful grammar!

[shmokes]

In France every employee gets at least 5 weeks paid vacation per year.  Whether you're a in senior management at a giant advertising firm or flipping burgers part time at McDonalds you get at least 5 weeks paid vacation.  It's the law.

[drventure]

I remember reading about how computers were going to make it so that the standard workday was 10-4

[patrickl]

I remember reading about how computers were going to make it so that the standard workday was 10-4

Well, people used to work 6 days a week and 10 hours a day before. We're down to almost half of that now.

[RayB]

What century?

[Fordman]

In the USA, I thought employers were required to give you at least 40 hours of vacation time if you had 1250 hours and 365 days of work. Let me do some research. I'm usually up on my labor law, but this one, I need to research......

Stay Tuned.......

Fordman

UPdate:
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not require payment for time not worked, such as vacations, sick leave or federal or other holidays. These benefits are matters of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative).

So, bottom line, if your employer says no vacation, then no vacation. You are officially what is considered an Employee-At-Will ! Basically you are at the will of the employer and the employer is at your will. You can work there with their conditions or you can quit! The vacation time as specified in the first part of the post is for minors in the State of Ohio.

Fordman

[RobbyMac]

What do you need a job for anyways?
We just got free healthcare... You shouldn't worry so much... just let someone else pay for your expenses.
 

[saint]

What do you need a job for anyways?
We just got free healthcare... You shouldn't worry so much... just let someone else pay for your expenses.
 

Take this to P&R....

[shmokes]

But, really, please do take it to P&R.  Could use some new blood in there.

[RobbyMac]

Ya, I'll be right over 

In our company, we have about a dozen employees. All of us have taken the hit... it's more small family rather than corporate (none of us are related). We all spent the better half of last year taking days off without pay each week, or taking a day without pay and still working.

Now it's our busy season, and we've found that the volume hasn't really grown, but the turnaround time has shortened. It makes it very difficult, and we're all working pretty much 7 days a week trying to keep up. But because the volume hasn't grown, we will probably run dry again late summer when our slow season begins.

Difficult at my age to get up another career if I wanted to. Fact is, I don't want to... I love my work/field, so I will stick with it as long as I can. Even with what we've been facing, we all still enjoy what we do.

[RayB]

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not require payment for time not worked, such as vacations, sick leave or federal or other holidays. These benefits are matters of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative).

So, bottom line, if your employer says no vacation, then no vacation. You are officially what is considered an Employee-At-Will ! Basically you are at the will of the employer and the employer is at your will. You can work there with their conditions or you can quit! The vacation time as specified in the first part of the post is for minors in the State of Ohio.

Fordman

Wow. Things are worse down there than I thought. Corporations have truly won and are wringing the american people for every drop.

[Vanguard]

It's all supply and demand.   In my industry we still get treated very well.   If you're in an industry where the supply of talent exceeds demand, you'll get treated pretty bad.