Star Wars - fully working!

[HaRuMaN]

good efficient suction will get it done

Truer words have never been spoken...   

[ChadTower]

Saw that joke coming a mile away but I thought it would also include the narrow shaft and alcohol...

[Spyridon]

Get some scrap PCBs and practice your soldering. 

Yep, I was thinking the same thing today.

[Spyridon]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

[Level42]

I told you to check the amps first.......

[ChadTower]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

Did you at least socket the thing in the process?  If you did that it's not a waste of time.

[Spyridon]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

Did you at least socket the thing in the process?  If you did that it's not a waste of time.

AVG was already socketed.  The DAC chips are the ones that are soldered in place.  That's next on my list.

[Level42]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

[ChadTower]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

Or two bad ones... 

Stranger things have happened.

[Spyridon]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

Or two bad ones... 

Always the optimist Chad!   

[Spyridon]

Okay, time for something good on this thread.  I put the new overlay on the yoke this weekend.

Overlay is from ThisOldGame and is really nice


The tools needed - 1 freshsly painted and rust free yoke cover, 1 overlay, 1 burnishing tool


I started out by lining up the overlay and using some masking tape to hold it in position.


Starting from the top, I cut the backing off the top 2 inches and applied it.  Then removing the tape, I slowly worked from top to bottom setting the overlay in position.  Use the plastic burnishing tool to push down and get a good seal.  The holes weren't a perfect match, but pretty close (and when screwed in place you won't see anything wrong)


And the finished product:

Looks much better than what I started with:


Back in its rightful place (now if only the game worked!)

After and Before shots:

[Spyridon]

No love for the new overlay?   

Anyway, I contacted Rich at ThisOldGame and I'm sending him the Fire Fox overlay.  Since it came off in such good shape I thought it would be good to get it scanned.  Since Rich has all the templates setup for the SW overlay, it should be an esay project for him.  I don't think I'll ever pick up a Fire Fox, but this hopefully can help some others out.  Rich is sending me a free t-shirt as a thank you.    (he has some people that have asked about getting this done)

[Spyridon]

Wow, look at the difference.  Here is a comparison between the ThisOldGame's overlay and Arcadeshops.

TOG:

Arcadeshop:

[Spyridon]

Okay, back to the problems with this game not working.  I found someone skilled in the art of soldering to add sockets to my DAC chips.



This allowed me to swap the chips around.  Y-out is still pegged at 13.44 and not moving.  Swaping the DAC chips had no change.

I'm open for suggestion on what to try next   

[RetroACTIVE]

Okay, back to the problems with this game not working.  I found someone skilled in the art of soldering to add sockets to my DAC chips.

This allowed me to swap the chips around.  Y-out is still pegged at 13.44 and not moving.  Swaping the DAC chips had no change.

I'm open for suggestion on what to try next   

I've only been playing around with SW for a bit... and I've read through what you've done... I'm not sure if I was able to tell from the posts if you checked the TLO82's (x/y drive amps) on the AVG board.  There are 2 amps per package and each X and Y circuit uses one 8 pin DIP.  They are clearly labeled on the schematic.

Ideally you would use a scope and look at input vs. output to see if the op-amp(s) are doing their job....(thats what I do) but I suppose you could use a DVOM however it may be difficult to detect.  The good news is if it is a bad op-amp those TLO-82's are dirt cheap and easily obtainable.

Like I said... not sure if you did this already... if so... sorry for the repeat.
 

[Spyridon]

I'm not sure if I was able to tell from the posts if you checked the TLO82's (x/y drive amps) on the AVG board.  There are 2 amps per package and each X and Y circuit uses one 8 pin DIP.  They are clearly labeled on the schematic.

Ideally you would use a scope and look at input vs. output to see if the op-amp(s) are doing their job....(thats what I do) but I suppose you could use a DVOM however it may be difficult to detect.  The good news is if it is a bad op-amp those TLO-82's are dirt cheap and easily obtainable.

I have not looked at them. The only things I played around with were the two DAC chips.

[Level42]

He's just ignoring us I guess:

I told you to check the amps first.......

 



Just noticed: the pictures of those yokes all show some bolts going through the handles. The one with the Arcadeshop decal seems to have two. These are not standard, guess ops installed them because the handles were moving ? It looks fugly.....I'd check with David for a couple of new handles.....

[Spyridon]

He's just ignoring us I guess:

I told you to check the amps first.......

Not ignoring you...I thought that's what I was doing when I swaped the DAC chips.   

[Level42]

I'm sorry, since my education was in electronics I keep assuming some "basic" things to be known by all collectors. Just my fault....

The DAC's are Digital to Analogue Converts. They convert a digital signal into an analog signal and nothing else.

The Op-Amps Amplify the signals so they are strong enough to drive the monitor. Let me check the schematics....

[Level42]

I've included the page of the schematics. To the left you see the DAC's. The amps are all the triangle shaped figures. Note that some of these are in the same IC ! (Those IC's have f.i. 4 amps in one package)

[Spyridon]

I'm sorry, since my education was in electronics I keep assuming some "basic" things to be known by all collectors. Just my fault....

The DAC's are Digital to Analogue Converts. They convert a digital signal into an analog signal and nothing else.

The Op-Amps Amplify the signals so they are strong enough to drive the monitor. Let me check the schematics....

Thanks for the explanation.  I don't have a background in this but I'm trying to learn.  Right now I'm reading this:

[Spyridon]

I've included the page of the schematics. To the left you see the DAC's. The amps are all the triangle shaped figures. Note that some of these are in the same IC ! (Those IC's have f.i. 4 amps in one package)

Excellent!  I was able to follow most of that.  I did locate the Amps and I tested each pin with my DMM.  Here are the results:


As you can see, there are definitely some outliers on 9 B/C.  The good news, is that this is also part of the y-axis which is the one that was not correct. 

[Level42]

Did you measure AC or DC voltage?

I assume to ground ?

[Spyridon]

Did you measure AC or DC voltage?

I assume to ground ?

Yes, measured to ground.  My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

[ChadTower]

My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

Ew!  Replace that!

There are times you want to measure the AC on a DC circuit.

[Level42]

My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

Ew!  Replace that!

There are times you want to measure the AC on a DC circuit.

+100

[Level42]

Spyri, I will have a look at your measurements and the schematic tomorrow and let you know. The voltages should be AC on the signal pins and DC on some supply pins....

[Level42]

OK the number 8 and 4 pins are "supply" voltages fixed to +15V and -15V as shown on the schematics. So these values are ok.

Apart from not being able to selecet between DC and AC, does the meter have auto-ranging or can you select voltage ranges ?
It's really pretty hard to judge based on the values you give. What was the PCB trying to display when you measured, attract screen ? Or did you put up a test screen ?

If it's attract, I'd expect a number of the other values to vary in time.

To be honest, it looks like all measurements were done in DC, because the values where I'd expect to see a bit of signal in AC show values very close to zero. Are you sure your meter can't be switched between AC and DC, this is _SO_ rare, maybe you simply missed how to do it ?

Pins 6 of 8B/C and 9B/C is where things to start being different between the x and y-axis outputs. However, this could simply mean that the Xcenter pot is way different set compared to the Ycenter pot. Put both of these pots in the exact middle position and measure these pins again and let's know the results.

If the differences keep being so big, I'd say 9B/C is shot. It _looks_ like pin 7 is fixed in DC to the +supply so that amp is probably defective.

But again, not being able to switch between AC and DC is simply unacceptable. For not much money you can buy a DVM that can switch, worth the money IMHO.

(Do you have a pic of your DVM ?)


If I may advise you, I'd invest in something like this:
Fluke

Doesn't really need to be a Fluke, but the select-by-dial is still the best and easiest way to work with a multimeter.
 
By the way, that's extremely cheap for a real Fluke and it includes free shipping from Hong Kong worldwide......I smell something fishy....wait a minute, just checked Fluke's website there is no model 15B.......but man you gotta give it to those Chinese, they do some nice copying.  However, inside there's a meter you can probably buy for 15 bucks.....

[Level42]

Without trying to de-rail the thread, some more info on the Fluke I linked to:

It seems to be a real Fluke ! But the model is only sold in China (15B and 17B).

I asked the seller if this was a real Fluke as I didn't find it on www.fluke.com and almost instantly got a reply (on sunday!):
Hello, this is a absolutely real FLUKE meter. Both the 15B and 17B version are only sell in China market. In there China FLUKE website, you will find the info. about them. Please also refer to other buyer's feedback about the meter. Highly recommend it to all Engineers. IF there is other question, please write to us again. Thank you.

So I thought, yeah right, but after some googling I actually believe he's telling the truth:

http://assets.fluke.com.cn/evtmanuals/15b17b__cmeng0000.pdf

(Look at the URL, .cn =china !)

and:

http://www.flukecommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3096


So, now there are two options:

1) Fluke produces a "less quality" model for the Chinese market and sells it and an affordable (yet still expensive for that market) price....

2) Fluke sells the same quality meter but simply names it differently and puts it in slightly different housing and sells it to the Chinese market at for them affordable price and we in the Western world get greatly SCREWED by the high prices we (or should I say, the _BUSINESS_ market who usually buy Fluke products) have to pay and get ripped off by Fluke.....

My guess ? Option 2 !

So, I actually think this is a serious deal to get a real Fluke !

However, the 110 series doesn't seem to be the highest priced range of meters by Fluke:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLUKE-TRUE-MULTIMETER-110-SERIES-NEW-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX_W0QQitemZ330342391810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ce9f0e002&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


Compare the pictures, Chinese:


Fluke 110:


I'd like to see an inside picture though....

[Spyridon]

(Do you have a pic of your DVM ?)

[Level42]

See, you DO have a AC/DC select button ! It's right there in the middle under the display....right over the "Craftsman" logo.

It also doubles as a select button between real Ohms (resistance) measuring and "diode-tester/continuity measuring.


Now write 100x:

I shall read the manual before using any equipment.

 

http://www.metersupport.com/manuals/82175.pdf

Man, look at this, there's an interactive on-line tutorial of how to use it......even Fluke doesn't have that:

http://www.metersupport.com/virtualDemos/82175vd.html

Nice !

It also looks like the inputs are covered depending on your selection of voltage or amps measuring. Very nice, this way you can't hook it up wrong. (And blow your meter's fuse). Good feature !

[Spyridon]

   I was just testing you guys!

Okay, I feel a little stupid.  I just wasn't used to the selector not being on the dial.

So, now that we figured that out...the readings above were done with DC.\

[Level42]

Okay, I feel a little stupid. 

You should !  Hey, "We're only human after all"

So, now that we figured that out...the readings above were done with DC.\

Which normally meant you'd have to do them all again....but in this case, you measured in DC and get steady values at pins that normally should have AC values. This shows that there's a good posibility that 9B/C is defective. I'm not saying 100%, but it is very likely.

Some background info you may forget right away, but I'm (poorly) trying to explain why I think 9B/C is bad:
The reason why I think so is that your readings are comparable between the X and the Y stages up to (and including) pin 5 of IC 9B/C and 8 B/C. From there, things start to differ between them.

Pin 5 is the positive input of one of the op-amps in that IC. Pin 7 is the output and that's the first point where you have a different reading (stuck high it seems). Pin 6 is the negative input of the op-amp and it's also stuck high but a little lower because that input 6 is used as a feedback from the output 7 through resistor R73.

[Spyridon]

As you can see, there are definitely some outliers on 9 B/C. 

Just an update on this.  I have a guy replacing this chip for me.  He said that it literally crumbled to pieces as he was desoldering it from the board.  That was some of the best news I've heard!  Hopefully this was the problem and I can get this working again.  Will have the board back in a couple of days.

[Level42]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Would save a lot of time. Also remember that that IC can have gone bad because some other part on the board being defective. Not trying to worry you unnesseraly but don't get your hopes up too high. Part replacing can be a lot of trial and error.


Crumbling sounds like the IC _was_ bad though Cooked itself....

[Spyridon]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Soldering is a skill that I am not great with.  It is something that I plan on working on.  I'm going to order something like this soldering kit

to practice on.

I didn't want to risk messing up the SW board set at this point. 

[HaRuMaN]

Just buy some cheap electronics, VCR's etc, at a thrift shop.  Take apart, practice all day. 

[Level42]

Rule 1 in soldering: let the solder do the work !

[MaximRecoil]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Soldering is a skill that I am not great with.  It is something that I plan on working on.  I'm going to order something like this soldering kit to practice on.

I didn't want to risk messing up the SW board set at this point. 

I used to teach new hires to solder at the PCB factory I worked at. In my experience, anyone can do it, though not everyone will become great at it. When I say "great", it is mostly with regard to speed (important on a production line, not so important for a hobby). Anyone can produce quality joints.

We did both through-hole and surface-mount soldering, but in this hobby, you generally only have to worry about through-hole. Fortunately, it is the easiest type of soldering to do.

In through-hole soldering, you have the pad and the post. The sole function of the iron is to heat the pad and post to a temperature that is hot enough to melt the solder (note that the pad and post will be melting the solder, not the iron directly). With a good iron, and the typical sizes of pads and posts in this hobby, they should reach sufficient temperature to melt solder nearly instantly. If you want the best tool for the job, get a Metcal. They are not necessary, but they do put you ahead of the game.

So with the iron in your right hand (assuming you are right-handed), place the tip so that it is making good contact with both the pad and the post simultaneously (the right side of the pad and post). Immediately after doing this, with the solder wire in your left hand, press the wire down into the left side of the pad and post, as if you were trying to thread the solder wire down through the hole in the pad. Remember; it is the hot pad and post melting the solder, not the iron directly; and you don't have to move the solder wire around in an effort to distribute it evenly; just push it straight in from the opposite side that your iron is on; the solder will automatically distribute itself evenly. As you are doing this (in a smooth, steady, somewhat rapid single motion), the solder wire will be melting and filling up the hole in the pad and then it will start to rise up the post.

When you've pressed in enough solder wire so that the molten solder has risen to nearly the top of the post, pull the wire and iron away simultaneously. If you've done this correctly, the fillet (solder joint) will be smooth and shiny, and be shaped like the Atari "Fuji" logo. If the fillet is rough, grey, and misshapen (known as "goose pooping"), then something went wrong, and it should be removed and redone. If the fillet is smooth and shiny, yet shaped like a bubble or dome, then you added too much solder. Remove some/most of the solder with wick or a solder sucker and redo the joint. You don't want to be endlessly redoing joints though, because too much heat can damage/lift the pad; so get a good feel for soldering on something that doesn't matter before doing it for real.

Also, make sure you have some good, small diameter solder. I use 63/37 .025" diameter flux-core (no-clean) solder made by Alphametals. 

[Spyridon]

Good post MaximRecoil