Star Wars - fully working!

[Spyridon]

Got this one shipped in via NAVL.  




And he came with a friend...


Not too much to do with this one as it is completely working.

I need to replace the overlay on the yoke as this one is from a Firefox.

I already picked up a new overlay from ThisOldGame.com

The neck board came loose during shipping and due to the angle of the monitor, it won't stay in place.  During a game it starts to slide off and the picture gets blurry.  

I need to pick up some silicone to hold it in place.  

[Aceldamor]

Wow!! That side art looks incredible!!

Nice work!

[Level42]

If possible, find some broken neck-board with a good connector and replace it.
The fact that it slides off also means that there is poor contact on the pins.

I'm not going to suggest the other option as I don't want to see you ruin your CRT...

O and two fabulous classics in one go is too much. Crate the AD and ship to the well known adress  

[Level42]

Hey, the WG6100 has the piggy-back over-voltage protection installed...nice.

[Spyridon]

Wow!! That side art looks incredible!!

Nice work!

The reds are a bit faded on the other side (I don't have a pic right now), but overall it's in great shape.

[Spyridon]

Crate the AD and ship to the well known adress  

Okay, here you go

[Spyridon]

Hey, the WG6100 has the piggy-back over-voltage protection installed...nice.

It also has the LV2000 mod already done (thanks Frizz)

[Level42]

You mean you haven't even shipped it yet ? Tsssssss !!!  



Looking again at the picture, that CRT connector is the "slide-on" type (compared to the pin/hole type) and they suck. I can't remember that the WG I worked on had it, but I probably forgot.
This connector kind is also used on Hantarex 900's, been working on those, and one is still "reasonably" connected, but the other.....a former owner tied some wire to the yoke and put some card-board behind it to keep it in place. (The 900 has a metal frame that allows that). Amazingly it actually works...
I would love to exchange the connectors and plastic part on the CRTs, but I bet finding those parts is pretty hard nowadays. A thrown-away TV could be your best bet.

[Spyridon]

Yeah, replacing it could be tough.  I'm going to just try and get a good solid connection and "weld" it in place with silicone.  It worked fine for FrizzleFried before he shipped it, so if I just get it held in place I should be fine.

[FrizzleFried]

Hey, the WG6100 has the piggy-back over-voltage protection installed...nice.

...and a Spaeth LV6100 low voltage mod...

EDIT: er...already discussed.

[FrizzleFried]

Wow!! That side art looks incredible!!

Nice work!

The reds are a bit faded on the other side (I don't have a pic right now), but overall it's in great shape.

Holy poo... I never even noticed that until you just pointed it out.  They're not a bit faded... they're damn near non-existent.  Glad there's not a ton of RED in the side art... sorry about that.

[Spyridon]

Hey, the WG6100 has the piggy-back over-voltage protection installed...nice.

...and a Spaeth LV6100 low voltage mod...

EDIT: er...already discussed.

Actually, I couldn't remember if it was the LV2000 or LV6100.  Guess it was Mark's kit.

And since Frizz chimed in, just want to give him props for a great packaging job and excellent job describing the cab details before I purchased.  

So when he sells that new Hard Drivin in a few months, you can be assured to get a quality deal!  

[Spyridon]

Wow!! That side art looks incredible!!

Nice work!

The reds are a bit faded on the other side (I don't have a pic right now), but overall it's in great shape.

Holy poo... I never even noticed that until you just pointed it out.  They're not a bit faded... they're damn near non-existent.  Glad there's not a ton of RED in the side art... sorry about that.

But you did provide pictures of it before I purchased. 

Found it:


Yeah, reds are worse than I remembered, but the left side is up against my Centipede and the right side is open for viewing.  Works fine!

[Spyridon]

and a larger right side shot for comparison

[Level42]

I can't believe that only the red faded that way. That has got to be a factory misprint. They simply forgot the red screening.

Don't tell me they didn't make mistakes like that. The plexi on my cockpit was all speckled with black paint on the inside....they were a bit over enthusiastic with the spraying in the factory.....funny that it's always stayed there (until I got it of course)...

[ChadTower]

I dig it without the red.  Cool.

[Level42]

T-t-t-t-t bad Frizz....selling cabs with loose neckboards and faulty artwork. We all know (from KLOV) how Frizz feels about poor quality artwork......


 


 

[RayB]

I can't believe that only the red faded that way. That has got to be a factory misprint. They simply forgot the red screening.

Don't tell me they didn't make mistakes like that. The plexi on my cockpit was all speckled with black paint on the inside....they were a bit over enthusiastic with the spraying in the factory.....funny that it's always stayed there (until I got it of course)...

No, red pigments are always sensitive to UV-caused fading. I don't know why... it just is.

I wish I had time to fix my SW...

[Level42]

Yes but there's not a single trace of any red....You'd expect it to at least have some "left over".

Red is always a problematic color. The wall in my game room, red cars, red-headed women.....(oops)...

[FrizzleFried]

T-t-t-t-t bad Frizz....selling cabs with loose neckboards and faulty artwork. We all know (from KLOV) how Frizz feels about poor quality artwork......


 


 

I blame NAVL.  ---daisies--- loosened up the neckboard AND stole the red from the one side of the artwork.  They must have packed it next to a UV machine or something...

[ChadTower]

They must have packed it next to a UV machine or something...

Damn tanning beds...

[TheShanMan]

Red is always a problematic color. The wall in my game room, red cars, red-headed women.....(oops)...

Hey, my wife resembles that remark!

[Spyridon]

Help!!!!! Two nights ago, I added some silicone to hold the neck board in place.  Today I turned the game on and nothing!  Game plays blind but nothing happening on the monitor.  I pulled the neck board a reseated it and no change.  Doesn't look like any probles with the neck board.  This happened one other time and I bumped the side of the cab (accidentally) and the monitor came on.  I figured it was just that the neck board was loose.  That does not seem to be the case this time.

What do I need to look at?  I know nothing about vector monitors, so you'll have to walk me through this one.

[Level42]

1) Don't panic. Vectors are the easiest monitors to work on and there's plenty of knowledge around
2) Do you have any neckglow ?
3) Any LED activity on the deflection board ?

The fact that the neckboard needed to be fixed already indicates poor contact (pressure) between the pins and the neckboard connector but there can be a LOT of problems on the PCB's as well

Next on the suspect list are ALL the connectors on the deflection board. Even if they look OK, there can be breaks between the islands where the pins are soldered and the track.  Testing them properly means measuring between the pin itself and the next soldering island that the track connects to (not to it's own soldering island).

[ChadTower]

First thing you need to know, even before Level42's advice is that you discharge a vector differently than a raster.  You cannot just short the anode to the frame.  You have to put a decent resistor in line and do it more slowly.  A quick search should pull up the proper technique.

[Spyridon]

First thing you need to know, even before Level42's advice is that you discharge a vector differently than a raster.  You cannot just short the anode to the frame.  You have to put a decent resistor in line and do it more slowly.  A quick search should pull up the proper technique.

Yep, I was already aware of that but thanks for the reminder.

[Spyridon]

1) Don't panic. Vectors are the easiest monitors to work on and there's plenty of knowledge around

Okay....calming down

2) Do you have any neckglow ?

Yes, I have neckglow

3) Any LED activity on the deflection board ?

Yes, the led is lit and both of the leds on the LV6100 are lit.

The fact that the neckboard needed to be fixed already indicates poor contact (pressure) between the pins and the neckboard connector but there can be a LOT of problems on the PCB's as well

Next on the suspect list are ALL the connectors on the deflection board. Even if they look OK, there can be breaks between the islands where the pins are soldered and the track.  Testing them properly means measuring between the pin itself and the next soldering island that the track connects to (not to it's own soldering island).

Haven't had time to look into any of the above yet. 

[Level42]

Neck-glow is a good sign that usually indicates there are no problems in the HV section.

The LEDs on the LV6100 should be lit, but I think (not sure) that the LED on the deflection board should be off. Lit means that the spot killer kicked in IIRC. That happened all the time when I was having the mentioned connector problems. Try some gentle wiggling (GENTLE !) on all the connectors on the deflection PCB. If you see the spot-killer LED go on/off you found the cause....

O and why would you need to discharge the CRT when you're going to test on it ? 

Discharging is only needed when you are going to be removing the anode cup. O and yes do not lick the area around the anode cup while working on the monitor 

[ChadTower]

O and why would you need to discharge the CRT when you're going to test on it ? 

All people who don't know exactly which things to not brush your hand against should discharge the tube.  Those shocks don't come only from the anode.

[Spyridon]

Neck-glow is a good sign that usually indicates there are no problems in the HV section.

The LEDs on the LV6100 should be lit, but I think (not sure) that the LED on the deflection board should be off. Lit means that the spot killer kicked in IIRC. That happened all the time when I was having the mentioned connector problems. Try some gentle wiggling (GENTLE !) on all the connectors on the deflection PCB. If you see the spot-killer LED go on/off you found the cause....

I will see if wiggling the connectors has any impact and let you know

O and why would you need to discharge the CRT when you're going to test on it ? 

Discharging is only needed when you are going to be removing the anode cup.

I wasn't planning on discharging the monitor (and even if I was, I couldn't because I don't currently have the proper tool to do it.

O and yes do not lick the area around the anode cup while working on the monitor 

but doesn't licking it provide better suction? 

[Spyridon]

I will see if wiggling the connectors has any impact and let you know

Tried this out.  No change.  The LED remained lit and no picture.

[Spyridon]

Also, I confirmed that the led 'ON' means the spot killer is actvie.  I also turned up the brightness and all I get is a dot in the center. 

I guess I should start by checking the fuses?  I know I need to pull the fuses to check them with the multimeter, but how do I check them? I've never done that with a meter before.

[HaRuMaN]

To check a fuse, set your multimeter to 'Continuity'.  Mine says "Open" if the fuse is bad, and beeps if it is continuous, i.e. good.  Yours may operate differently.

[Level42]

Uhm, we are all talking about doing this (investigating the monitor) while it's actually running right ? So yes, there's going to be 19,5 kV on the tube so........do not touch the cup (area). (And so there is no sense in first discharging the tube, and then turning it back on again so it's charged back up....).

I mean you should power up the game, then try to wiggle the connectors while it's running. I did that and got picture in a certain position of one connector and lost it when I left it alone again. Not fool proof, but worth a try.

Some things you will have to check when the monitor is running and yes there are all kinds of unhealthy voltages around but I guessed Spyridon is no noob who starts touching metal parts or pins of really big caps while it's running.

To wiggle the connectors try to touch the plastic case of the connector only.

My guess is you won't find much at the fuses as you have HV.

Read the WG6100 FAQ, that's the best walk-through you can get.
Basic things (even when wiggling doesn't indicate anything) check those connectors with a multimeter (WHILE THE MONITOR IS OFF !) with an Ohms measuring setting. Measure between the pin of the connector and the solder island of the part that the track runs to, NOT to the soldering island of the connector itself as this is probably good since the breaks develop around the soldering island.

Another basic thing is checking all the big transistors. Are the wires still OK, do the transistor holders still make good contact to the transistor pins etc.

[SirPeale]

To check a fuse, set your multimeter to 'Continuity'.  Mine says "Open" if the fuse is bad, and beeps if it is continuous, i.e. good.  Yours may operate differently.

It depends on the type of fuse.  This is okay on a fast blow fuse, but on a slow blow, you want to use resistance.  High resistance indicates that the fuse has been stressed, and should be replaced, as it won't pass enough current.  The same fuse may pass continuity, because all that does it check if it'll complete a circuit.

[Spyridon]

I mean you should power up the game, then try to wiggle the connectors while it's running. I did that and got picture in a certain position of one connector and lost it when I left it alone again. Not fool proof, but worth a try.

I did that but I didn't look at the screen.  Just the spot killer light.  It did not go out when I moved the connectors.

Some things you will have to check when the monitor is running and yes there are all kinds of unhealthy voltages around but I guessed Spyridon is no noob who starts touching metal parts or pins of really big caps while it's running.

Thanks for the vote of confidence .  I'm not great at this, but I know (for the most part) what not to touch.  However, sometimes I'm too cautious

To wiggle the connectors try to touch the plastic case of the connector only.

That's the way I did it.

My guess is you won't find much at the fuses as you have HV.

Read the WG6100 FAQ, that's the best walk-through you can get.
Basic things (even when wiggling doesn't indicate anything) check those connectors with a multimeter (WHILE THE MONITOR IS OFF !) with an Ohms measuring setting. Measure between the pin of the connector and the solder island of the part that the track runs to, NOT to the soldering island of the connector itself as this is probably good since the breaks develop around the soldering island.

Another basic thing is checking all the big transistors. Are the wires still OK, do the transistor holders still make good contact to the transistor pins etc.

To check the pins with a multimeter, I 'll have to get under the board.  I'm assuming I can detach and lift that board without discharging the monitor?

[Level42]

No need to look at the screen. If that LED is on, there's nothing on the screen.

Yes you can !

(mmm, sounds familiar).

Maybe check if large caps still have some load on them first. I maybe a bit more "careless" on this because I'm used to working with this stuff.

Look for the obvious things first: poor contacts an either the connectors or the transistors themselves.

[SirPeale]

If you want to look at the screen at the same time, a makeup mirror from a cosmetics case (like rouge) comes in handy.  I carry one in my toolbox.

[Level42]

No-no peale, we all know you carry it around with your lipstick and make-up............

[ChadTower]

If you want to look at the screen at the same time, a makeup mirror from a cosmetics case (like rouge) comes in handy.  I carry one in my toolbox.

Your arms must be longer than they appear... I certainly can't hold a mirror in front of a monitor and get my arm around the side of the cab with enough line of sight to safely adjust a monitor.  I don't see any mention that he has pulled the thing out of the cab.

[Spyridon]

Okay, I checked the fuses and they are all good.

Next I want to check the transistors, but I'm unsure of how to test these.  Can someone explain (in detail) the process for testing them.



(thanks in advance)

[Level42]

Set your DVM in diode test mode. Now check between all the legs in all kind of combinations (so reverse test leads on same pins). Your DVM may beeb but should give a reading like 0.5 or something like that, or should be "infinite). As soon as you have a beep and a value of 0, you got a short.

This is my quick and dirty way, of course there's a much more scientific B-C-E testing way, but usually may way is quicker.

You can remove the transistors from the seats by gently pulling them so you can test them out of circuit, but pulling the connectors loose on the deflection board is quicker.

I knew I had made some pics of the track problems I had on the 6100 I worked on and I found them:

This clearly shows the crack. Also note the TERRIBLE soldering ! It's a "bulb" instead of a "fuji"......



Here's how it looked after desoldering:

[Level42]

O and here's another classic:



A component lead that never got touched by any solder in 25 years. This was on the neck-board.....
Check out how all the other solderings were done......see and weep....

[Spyridon]

I tested the two transistors on the side of the monitor cage.  They both tested fine.  I'm not sure I can get to the bottom ones without removing the monitor.

[Level42]

Of course you can test them on the connectors on the deflection board too.

[Spyridon]

Of course you can test them on the connectors on the deflection board too.

Good point.  That should make things easier. 

[Spyridon]

I've been reading up on transistors so that I can learn some more about what I'm doing.  According to what I've read, there should be three parts: the base, collector, and emitter.  Looking at the picture below, I have 5 pins?  I was expecting only three.  How do I tell what is what?  The two without wires are different than the other three, so I can probably assume the three with wires are the 3 elements.




Bear with me on what may seem like dumb questions, but I'm treating this as a learning experience.

[Level42]

Not a dumb question. Those transistor holders are pretty weird things.

Every transistor has three cpnnections only. What you see (yellow arrow) is where the pin of the transistor is inserted into the holder. That metal holder is connected to the solder "eye" of that holder (pointed by the green arrow).  Try to measure between them in diode test and you will hear a beep (and 0 reading) as they are directly connected.

Now, I already hear you say, where is the third pin ?

The third pin is not there. The metal case of the transistor is the third connection. This is why the third solder-eye is connected to the screw.

[Spyridon]

Okay, I think that makes sense.  Thanks!

[Kevin Mullins]

Typically if it didn't blow a fuse those transistors are most likely still good. (should still check them though) Not only look for dead shorts, but also if one is comeletely OPEN then it's bad as well.

Absolutley can not stress enough to check every pin for bad solder joints.
Especially the header pins for the connectors that lead to those larger chassis mounted transistors..
If you find ANY bad solder joints around those header pins, check the small resistors and transistors in that general area.

Spot killer LED being on indicates you are missing at least one of the axis. (X or Y)
Which in turn shuts the beam completely off in order not to burn the screen.

[Level42]

Indeed !

Now get that monitor out of the cab and put it on a workbench where you can work on it properly.

Screw loose the deflection board and turn it over and check those connector solderings !

If that's the problem you owe me a Pac Man joystick !



......wait a minute.........


you already sent me a Pac Man joystick 

[Kevin Mullins]

Found a pic.... crappy as it may be..... of what can be found just due to the header pin solder joints cracking. I didn't grab a pic of the underside though, sorry.
This was from the last 6100 I repaired. Lots of solder joints especially on those particular header pins, one resistor and one transistor. Less than a $1 to fix.

Worth checking the fuse holders as well. Sometimes they loose tension on the fuse itself.
Or get kinda crusty from oxidization.

[SirPeale]

If you want to look at the screen at the same time, a makeup mirror from a cosmetics case (like rouge) comes in handy.  I carry one in my toolbox.

Your arms must be longer than they appear... I certainly can't hold a mirror in front of a monitor and get my arm around the side of the cab with enough line of sight to safely adjust a monitor.  I don't see any mention that he has pulled the thing out of the cab.

The trick is to get a grasp on the pot before you stick the mirror out there, then start your adjustments.

Of course it also depends on the cab.  Something really deep, like a Tunnel Hunt - forget about it.  Get a stand mirror.

[ChadTower]

  Get a stand mirror.

I have decided that a 9 year old is sufficient to hold the mirror. 

[Kevin Mullins]

  Get a stand mirror.

I have decided that a 9 year old is sufficient to hold the mirror. 

If you are like me, it's always the little girl that wants to "help".
Then they spend more time looking into the mirror than holding it for ya.

[ChadTower]

If you are like me, it's always the little girl that wants to "help".
Then they spend more time looking into the mirror than holding it for ya.

Heh... I only have boys... but I do spend most of the time saying "Ryan stop turning the mirror... stop turning the... dammit boy just stand on this piece of paper... now turn it back... argh"

[Spyridon]

Now get that monitor out of the cab and put it on a workbench where you can work on it properly.

Screw loose the deflection board and turn it over and check those connector solderings !

I need to get an HV probe to discharge this before I pull the monitor.  Will this one work: eBay link?

[Level42]

Are you planning on getting out the chassis only, or the complete monitor. I don't know how the WG6100 is fixed in your cab ? (the only upright I worked on has an Amplifone).

If you're not removing the HV cup there's no need to discharge it. If you do remove the HV cup, yes discharge.

[Kevin Mullins]

You can remove just the main chassis without removing the HV cage........they unplug from each other without having to remove the HV anode.
But if you find many bad solder joints on the main chassis you may want to check the HV pcb for joints as well.

And the probe you pointed at is designed to plug into a Fluke meter for measuring the HV, not discharging it.

[ChadTower]

As I keep saying... the fact that he doesn't know these things... means he shouldn't be working on a charged monitor.

The advice you're giving is only safe to those who already understand it.

[HaRuMaN]

Well... if he doesn't come back to ask for more advice...  we'll know he's dead.

[Level42]

So, you say Spyridon is incapable of _learning_ things ?  

[Level42]

Well... if he doesn't come back to ask for more advice...  we'll know he's dead.

Spyridon ?

SPYRI !!!! SAY SOMETHING !





I still want somebody to show me PROOF of someone who DIED because of touching HV from a TV or monitor. There's no POWER behind it. If you would understand how an HVT works, you KNOW this.

That doesn't mean that I advice people to lick under the HV cup......

I think Spyridon is the one who should make the decision what he will and won't do on the monitor. He can always send it to Arcadecup or someone else who does repairs.

Tell you what Spyridon, send me the boards and I'll fixe them for you no charge.




"Hey kid, listen, don't have sex, you know it's unsafe"
"OK dad"........

[ChadTower]

I still want somebody to show me PROOF of someone who DIED because of touching HV from a TV or monitor. There's no POWER behind it. If you would understand how an HVT works, you KNOW this.

Note that it isn't me talking about death.  I'm well aware odds are very low it will kill you.  It WILL ---fudgesicle--- up your day, though, and I do know a guy who has permanent nerve damage in his arm from it.  I saw it happen to one guy whose arm shot out straight and threw the flathead screwdriver hard enough that it embedded itself 4" deep in the sheet rock 6' away.

If I thought Spyridon was incapable of learning I would be suggesting he not touch the monitor at all.  What I am suggesting is that until he has a strong idea of how these things work that he should be discharging it every time.  This just isn't a good tradeoff for saving 2 minutes worth of time discharging the tube.

[Spyridon]

[HaRuMaN]

Hey...  he's not dead! 

Either that, or the Grim Reaper hijacked his account...

[Level42]

My uncle.

Did TV repairs for a couple of decades. Has been "struck" by HV a good number of times. Still pretty healthy

And I am forever grateful as he was the inspiration to get an electronics education, I admired him TOTALLY when I watched him repair TVs.... funny how things come round

He's teaching me convergence here ! 

I was touched by the HV a month or two ago. Believe it or not, it happened when I tried to measure HV with a probe ! Don't know what happened (old probe) but I agree, it was not a feeling I have a strong desire for.

[Mauzy]

I was always told that the injuries you sustain from that kind of shock are more from losing control of your muscles during the shock which could send your hand flying through the neck of the tube or get yourself sliced up on the monitor frame or even embed a screw driver 4 inches into sheet rock as Chad said. At least thats what my grandfather told me. He worked in TV repair for a few years. Whether or not he took a direct shock from the anode I don't know, but knowing him he would do it on purpose just to prove a point....

[m_mcgover]

Will this one work: eBay link?

No.  that one only goes to 6000V (6KV).  You want want that is at least 30kV.  Fluke makes a probe similar that goes to 40kV.  that is what you want.

[Spyridon]

Here are the instructions in the Star Wars manual on removing the monitor:


Seems like the standard procedure you would use on a raster monitor.  I thought this wasn't recommended for vector monitors?

[orion]

Well I have learned that monitors can certainly bite you pretty hard when your poking around with them and don't know what your doing. I honestly don't know what the odds are that you can get electrocuted, but I do know that I once managed to get such a nice zap that it singed some of my arm hair off. The smell of ozone and burnt hair... lovely. I also learned not to adjust horizontal width coils with standard allen wrenches. The main thing I learned is to ASK YOU GUYS FIRST before I go playing around willy nilley with these things, cause at the very least, getting shocked can hurt like hell! My thought is to better be safe than sorry and to just discharge the damn thing before messing with it, even if you know what you are doing.

[Level42]

Here are the instructions in the Star Wars manual on removing the monitor:


Seems like the standard procedure you would use on a raster monitor.  I thought this wasn't recommended for vector monitors?

I don't know this from experience so be warned, but I can't understand why discharging a vector would be any different then raster. You short (via resistors or not) the tube and nothing else is involved.
At least, that's theory.

Also interesting to read:
"The video display contains a circuit for discharging the CRT high voltage to ground when power is removed." And that's normally the case, unless it fails. But in this world of claims and lawsuits, no-one is taking chances....

[Spyridon]

I just need to find enough time to sit down and work on this. 

I will fix it!!!!!

[orion]

I just need to find enough time to sit down and work on this. 

I will fix it!!!!!

How many machines are you working on right now BTW? Didn't you just score quite a few more?

[Malenko]

Your arms must be longer than they appear... I certainly can't hold a mirror in front of a monitor and get my arm around the side of the cab with enough line of sight to safely adjust a monitor.  I don't see any mention that he has pulled the thing out of the cab.

Yeah cause theres no way he could sit the mirror on a table or prop it up on something.......

[ChadTower]

I don't know this from experience so be warned, but I can't understand why discharging a vector would be any different then raster. You short (via resistors or not) the tube and nothing else is involved.

Depends what you short it to... short it to the cement on your floor and you're fine.  Short it to the frame, as most people do,
and you may or may not ever see use of those frame grounded drivers again without that resistor. That's the difference.

[Spyridon]

How many machines are you working on right now BTW? Didn't you just score quite a few more?

No, I didn't pick up any more (other than SW and AD).  I've got major restorations going on Pac-man and Centipede.  Those are the two that will take over my life once the weather gets warm enough (snowing here today).

Front Line just needed the joystick fixed and a new CPO.  Star Wars wasn't meant to be worked on other than replacing the yoke overlay.  This monitor issue needs to be fixed so I can start stripping the parts out of Pac-man and Centipede.

(Oh, but I've got several projects lined up once these are done so don't worry.     Gyruss will probably be up after Centi and Pac are done)

[orion]

How many machines are you working on right now BTW? Didn't you just score quite a few more?

No, I didn't pick up any more (other than SW and AD).  I've got major restorations going on Pac-man and Centipede.  Those are the two that will take over my life once the weather gets warm enough (snowing here today).

Front Line just needed the joystick fixed and a new CPO.  Star Wars wasn't meant to be worked on other than replacing the yoke overlay.  This monitor issue needs to be fixed so I can start stripping the parts out of Pac-man and Centipede.

(Oh, but I've got several projects lined up once these are done so don't worry.  P   Gyruss will probably be up after Centi and Pac are done)

You are getting snow at this time of year??? Wow!!! We only get snow once a year if we are lucky and even a half inch of snow shuts everything down here. I thought you were working on several machines, but I didn't recall that the Front line was nothing major. Two major restorations at once though is a lot of work. I hope you get this monitor fixed, it's nice of level 42 to offer to fix the boards for you though if you get in to much of a jam with it. Sounds like a major PITA you got going on with it right now (all I can offer is "good luck" with it, as its well beyond me) As always I will be looking forward to seeing The Gyruss and these other projects get underway (not to sound like I'm rushing you, but you do always do really good work)

[Spyridon]

Okay, I decided to play it safe.  Also, now that I have two vector games, it made sense to have the proper tools.  I have just ordered a Fluke HV Probe (80K-40)


I considered pulling the monitor without discharging (after leaving it turned off for a few days), but decided against that once I read the instructions in the manual on how to remove it.  You need to disconnect the annode wire to remove the game.  No use taking any changes.  Proper tool is on the way.

[ChadTower]

Now that is definitely optional but good to have.  I use a long screwdriver with a heavy wire, one end clipped to the screwdriver shaft and the other to the metal frame, then slide the flathead tip under the cap to the anode clip.  You do need to be mindful of where your hands are but it does work fine and I know a lot of good techs who do it that way on location.

FWIW, that POP you read about doesn't always happen.  In fact I've never seen it happen.  The most I've seen is a little blue spark when discharging the tube before putting the anode back on (yes, always discharge a second time).  Don't be surprised if you see nothing visible at all.

[Spyridon]

Now that is definitely optional but good to have.  I use a long screwdriver with a heavy wire, one end clipped to the screwdriver shaft and the other to the metal frame, then slide the flathead tip under the cap to the anode clip.  You do need to be mindful of where your hands are but it does work fine and I know a lot of good techs who do it that way on location.

Yeah, I've used that setup many times for standard monitors (I have this), but don't you need to put a series of resistors in place when doing that on a vector monitor? 

See this thread:
Discharge a Vector monitor same as a Raster?

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I've used that setup many times for standard monitors (I have this), but don't you need to put a series of resistors in place when doing that on a vector monitor? 

See this thread:
Discharge a Vector monitor same as a Raster?

Yes absolutely you're right - we even addressed this in this thread.     I forgot to mention that since I have been doing my Berzerk lately and have probably discharged that tube 100 times in the past two weeks.  Good catch. 

EDIT:  I should mention that is specific to discharging to the frame.  If you discharge to something else you don't need it.  Sometimes for giggles I discharge into the cold water supply line above my workbench or the concrete basement floor. 

[orion]

Now that is definitely optional but good to have.  I use a long screwdriver with a heavy wire, one end clipped to the screwdriver shaft and the other to the metal frame, then slide the flathead tip under the cap to the anode clip.  You do need to be mindful of where your hands are but it does work fine and I know a lot of good techs who do it that way on location.

FWIW, that POP you read about doesn't always happen.  In fact I've never seen it happen.  The most I've seen is a little blue spark when discharging the tube before putting the anode back on (yes, always discharge a second time).  Don't be surprised if you see nothing visible at all.

That's all I had been using when discharging monitors. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't those high voltage probes have the capacity to hook into a multimeter so you can see how much voltage has been discharged? That's a cool feature to have I think. I had a G07 that would make a noticeable POP and spark every time I discharged it and it would do that even after the thing had been off for a few hours. (It's the one that always used to like to bite me) I don't know if that's an inherent trait of G07's (which I know don't self discharge) in general or just that particular one (which went bye-bye after I accidentally broke its neck one day)

[ChadTower]

That's all I had been using when discharging monitors. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't those high voltage probes have the capacity to hook into a multimeter so you can see how much voltage has been discharged?

Yeah, that's what it does, it plugs into the DMM, you connect the other lead to the frame, and you can read the voltage decreasing on the DMM display.  I'm betting the big part of the probe is just a resistor similar to what the manual process uses but is designed to protect the DMM as well as the frame mount components.

[FrizzleFried]

Damn... i just noticed this thread.  I am very sorry you're having issues Spyridon... I swear to you that I didn't have a single issue since the monitor was rebuilt... even the neckboard,  while semi-loose,  didn't seem to be loose enough to fall off (which,  evidently was wrong).    Luckily the WG6100 is pretty easy to work on once you get the knack of it...

I will monitor this thread and hopefully you'll find it to be something very simple/cheap to fix...

 

[FrizzleFried]

BTW:  That WG comes out from behind... all WG's were hacked in to uprights and this one comes out easily if you remove the wood above the back door and slide it out backwards (I put a couple screws in to hold it in place for shipping,  so you'll want to remove those).

One plug and you can easily pull it.

[Spyridon]

BTW:  That WG comes out from behind... all WG's were hacked in to uprights and this one comes out easily if you remove the wood above the back door and slide it out backwards (I put a couple screws in to hold it in place for shipping,  so you'll want to remove those).

One plug and you can easily pull it.

Oh, that's good to know.  I was following the instruction in the manual and that had it coming out the front.

[Spyridon]

Damn... i just noticed this thread.  I am very sorry you're having issues Spyridon... I swear to you that I didn't have a single issue since the monitor was rebuilt... even the neckboard,  while semi-loose,  didn't seem to be loose enough to fall off (which,  evidently was wrong).    Luckily the WG6100 is pretty easy to work on once you get the knack of it...

I will monitor this thread and hopefully you'll find it to be something very simple/cheap to fix...

 

Yeah, I never questioned that you didn't have any issues.  I think it either just got banged around during shipping or it was just its time. 

[Ginsu Victim]

Damn... i just noticed this thread.

Really? Then why are you on page one of this thread discussing the issues?

Hey, the WG6100 has the piggy-back over-voltage protection installed...nice.

...and a Spaeth LV6100 low voltage mod...

EDIT: er...already discussed.

Wow!! That side art looks incredible!!

Nice work!

The reds are a bit faded on the other side (I don't have a pic right now), but overall it's in great shape.

Holy poo... I never even noticed that until you just pointed it out.  They're not a bit faded... they're damn near non-existent.  Glad there's not a ton of RED in the side art... sorry about that.

T-t-t-t-t bad Frizz....selling cabs with loose neckboards and faulty artwork. We all know (from KLOV) how Frizz feels about poor quality artwork......


 


 

I blame NAVL.  ---daisies--- loosened up the neckboard AND stole the red from the one side of the artwork.  They must have packed it next to a UV machine or something...

[FrizzleFried]

Damn... i just noticed this thread.

Really? Then why are you on page one of this thread discussing the issues?

The thread started out as a "Look what I got" thread... it evolved in to a "monitor issue" thread after I went on vacation on the morning of the 31st.   My posts prior to today were about the "artwork" of the cab as well as the fact that I'd installed a LV6100 to the monitor chassis during the rebuild... not the monitor issue.

[FrizzleFried]

Yeah, I never questioned that you didn't have any issues.  I think it either just got banged around during shipping or it was just its time. 

Yeah...doesn't make me feel any better though...

Oh, that's good to know.  I was following the instruction in the manual and that had it coming out the front.

The instructions in the manual are for AMPLIFONE monitors... no SW's came with WG's stock (from my recollection).

[Ginsu Victim]

The thread started out as a "Look what I got" thread... it evolved in to a "monitor issue" thread after I went on vacation on the morning of the 31st. 

The faulty neckboard issue started out being discussed right off the bat, the same day you posted. (March 27th)

Nevermind. I just read more...sorry mate

[FrizzleFried]

The thread started out as a "Look what I got" thread... it evolved in to a "monitor issue" thread after I went on vacation on the morning of the 31st. 

The faulty neckboard issue started out being discussed right off the bat, the same day you posted. (March 27th)

Uh...loose neckboard...

Reading comprehension troubles?

EDIT: Same here... 

[Level42]

The instructions in the manual are for AMPLIFONE monitors... no SW's came with WG's stock (from my recollection).

Correct.  19" in the upright, 25" in the cockpit. Anything else is not factory.

[Spyridon]

The instructions in the manual are for AMPLIFONE monitors... no SW's came with WG's stock (from my recollection).

Correct.  19" in the upright, 25" in the cockpit. Anything else is not factory.

I wasn't aware of that.  I thought Atari switched at some point. 

[Level42]

No they didn't.

They switched from WG _TO_ Amplifone, not the other way around. The WG performed badly and needed a number of revisions.

They also wanted a higher resolution and  higher slew-rate for SW.
SW was designed fot the Amplifone (or maybe the other way around)

The Amplifone monitor was designed by Atari (who had bought Amplifone instead of contracting them for the production of the monitors).
I've also read that WG couldn't produce enough vector monitors at the time.

There's a lot of info on Jed Margolin's site (who was the hardware designer of SW):

www.jedmargolin.com

Even if you don't understand the technical stuff, there's plenty of interesting trivia and facts in those documents.

[Spyridon]

Okay, back to this project.  I got my Fluke HV probe in and discharged the monitor.  I pulled then pulled the monitor out to make working on it much easier.



I first checked all of the transistors using my meter and they all 4 of the 6 were showing as bad.  Wait a minute...forgot to unplug them from the deflection board.  Try again.  This time all checked out as good.  Next I removed the deflection board to look for some bad solder joints.  Bingo...I think I found a problem. 

It may not be clear in the picture (had trouble getting good close up shots), but there is a definite gap between the soder and the board on the header pins circled.  I'm hopeing this could be the issue.

[Kevin Mullins]

The key thing to keep in mind when you find a trace burnt like that..... "something" caused it.

Where abouts on the board is that spot located?

[Spyridon]

The key thing to keep in mind when you find a trace burnt like that..... "something" caused it.

It's not burnt.  It was resoldered at some point and what looks like a burnt part in the photo is actually flux.  It appeard to be a cold solder joint.
 

[Kevin Mullins]

Yeah, I can see the flux.... just the way it looks like the trace curled up a bit makes it look like it "burnt". From an over current situation of sorts.
If it were just a cracked joint it wouldn't have done that.
And if someone soldered on it with a cracked joint and then that happened, well, you would think they would have noticed it.

Maybe it's just hard to tell in the pic. 

[Level42]

The key thing to keep in mind when you find a trace burnt like that..... "something" caused it.

I'll tell you what caused it: Terrible production quality....

If you compare it to the pics I added to this thread you can see that it's simple production issues all around.

They seriously screwed up on the 6100 PCBs.

The HV board seems to be the best of the three. I re-soldered every single soldering on the neckboard. I wanted to do the same thing on the deflection board, but the way the tracks responded to the re-soldering of the header connectors made me quickly change my mind.

O and Spyridon....looks like you need a new tube ?

[Spyridon]

O and Spyridon....looks like you need a new tube ?

It does have a burn in hole in the center.  You don't notice it while playing until the Death Star blows up.  Then it becomes obvious

[ChadTower]

You don't need a new tube... at some point it was run with the spot killer disabled... and now you have a spot.  Shouldn't be a problem unless you're super anal about that spot. 

I don't usually spend much time looking for cold joints.  I just start reflowing everything I can get the tip on and add some new solder to anything questionable.  Way too many will be undetectable by eye and you can head off the next failure by doing it now to everything else.

[Level42]

Well, seeing how perfect Spryridon's work is I'd assume he would find the spot annoying. I know I would.
And it's a standard CRT, nothing special about it.

OK, gotta have to learn how to converge a new one.

I'm kind of planning on making a video about it. It's really NOT that hard, you just have to have someone show it....

But I agree, if you can live with it, it's fine. First get the thing running I guess....

The thing about reflowing is that it won't help if you have breaks like these:


You will have to bridge the gap in some way. I used a piece of solid core wire for that. I simple looked to what that track went and made a large enough piece of wire to bridge the entire track.

[ChadTower]

Well, seeing how perfect Spryridon's work is I'd assume he would find the spot annoying. I know I would.
And it's a standard CRT, nothing special about it.

That a 100 degree tube, right?  Aren't the rasters almost all 90 degrees?  It's the Amp that uses 90 degree tubes, I think, not the WG.

[RayB]

Just don't play the game while standing in front of the monitor. The electrons will fly out of the spot and hit you, sucking you into the game.

[Level42]

Well, seeing how perfect Spryridon's work is I'd assume he would find the spot annoying. I know I would.
And it's a standard CRT, nothing special about it.

That a 100 degree tube, right?  Aren't the rasters almost all 90 degrees?  It's the Amp that uses 90 degree tubes, I think, not the WG.

So he gets a bit of pincushion, less noticeable than the burn-in dot.

I think it's more depending on age of the CRT. The more modern the CRT is, the more chance that it's a higher degree angle because tubes got shorter and shorter in time.

[ChadTower]

So he gets a bit of pincushion, less noticeable than the burn-in dot.

I'd rather have the dot.  It's better than spending 10 hours converging a color vector.  That yoke swap is a nightmare.

[Level42]

Well, my uncle taught me the ancient art of converging and .....it's not as bad as many people say.

Bad I agree, it's not for everyone...

The key is to work systematic and follow the steps like it's written in the Amplifone manual which is about the best explanation I've read.

Yes, I've done it a couple of times over but now I have the "feel".

However, I will have to do an Amplifone 19" CRT swap too and maybe I'll think different about it then....but I'm pretty sure I can do it....

[ChadTower]

Hell if you have a good amp chassis try it with a 27" just for giggles...   

[Spyridon]

Well, my uncle taught me the ancient art of converging and .....it's not as bad as many people say.

...I agree, it's not for everyone...

When is your next trip over here?

[Mauzy]

Just don't play the game while standing in front of the monitor. The electrons will fly out of the spot and hit you, sucking you into the game.

"My God! Its full of stars!!"

oh yes. that works on MANY levels 

[Level42]

Well, my uncle taught me the ancient art of converging and .....it's not as bad as many people say.

...I agree, it's not for everyone...

When is your next trip over here?

If you pay travel and expenses, the hours are free

[WunderCade]

...........It's better than spending 10 hours converging a color vector.  That yoke swap is a nightmare.

I wonder how the factories converge these crt's? It certainly isn't cost effective to spend hours on each unit, did they have some sort of special electronic equipment that handled the convergence quickly, or did factory workers do each one?

[Mauzy]

Is it harder to converge a larger monitor? I've done tube swaps on 19s with only about 10 minutes of converging to make it damn near perfect.

[Level42]

Definitely harder.

Good question Wunder.....I guess it's a matter of routine.....

[Spyridon]

Okay, I reflowed the solder on the bad pins and put the monitor back in the cab.  No improvement    Still have the spot killer on.  (of course, it could be my bad soldering skills didn't help).  This is frustrating.

What should I check next?

If all else fails, I'll send it to Chad at Arcadecup.com, but I'd like to avoid the $135 charge (plus shipping)

[Level42]

You did see my offer Spyridon ?

Did you check for any breaks in the tracks ? Only reflowing won't solve those cracks, you will need to bridge the gaps with a wire.  You need to measure every pin of every connector. Look where the track of each pin runs to and measure between the pin itself (not the soldering !) and the pin of the component it runs to.

[Spyridon]

You did see my offer Spyridon ?

Which one...the one where I send the boards to you or the one where I pay your travel expense to come here 

Did you check for any breaks in the tracks ? Only reflowing won't solve those cracks, you will need to bridge the gaps with a wire.  You need to measure every pin of every connector. Look where the track of each pin runs to and measure between the pin itself (not the soldering !) and the pin of the component it runs to.

I did a visual check.  I'll check tonight with a meter across every connector.

[ChadTower]

Okay, I reflowed the solder on the bad pins and put the monitor back in the cab.  No improvement   

Don't pick and choose what you reflow.  Do them all.  Yes, it will take a while.  Add solder to anything that looks like there isn't enough.  This is a case where if you have a little bit more than is necessary that won't hurt you.

Stop trying to bullseye bad solder joints from your T16 back home.

[Spyridon]

Before pulling out the monitor again, I thought I would check all the voltages to make sure they are good.  Here is what I am getting:

B+     = 172
-5     = -5.19
+5     = 5.07
10.3   = 11.86
+12    = 11.78
-15    = -15.26
+15    = 14.65
-22    = -24.0
+22    = 23.79

On the two transistors on the side of the monitor cage I'm getting -23.24 and 23.11

x-out fluctuates between .05 and .1
y-out is steady at .633

Shouldn't the y-out be fluctuating?

[Level42]

I assume you have the monitor connected to the game PCB set while you measured this ?

If so, I'd expect the y to be fluctuating too.

[Spyridon]

I assume you have the monitor connected to the game PCB set while you measured this ?

If so, I'd expect the y to be fluctuating too.

I'm almost positive that the monitor was connected, but I did disconnect the monitor at one point in order to pull the boardset out far enough to get to some of the test points.  I don't think I did the for the y-out, but I will test again tonight to make sure.

[ChadTower]

Those wouldn't happen to be DC measurements, would they?  I seem to remember those lines being much higher.

[Kevin Mullins]

Test the Game Board Outputs before Turning the Monitor On.
Make sure the game board is outputting correct voltages before you power the monitor
on! Otherwise you can waste the monitor and all the above work. To test the outputs, set
your meter on DC volts and measure the leads of R600 and R700 (fuses) of the deflection
board. These are connected to the plug with wire colors yellow (R600) and orange
(R700). The correct voltage should be in the +0.5 to -0.5 volt range (basically zero volts).
The voltage will fluctuate because of changing deflection signals. If the measured voltage
is between 5 and 15 volts (positive or negative), then check the X and Y amplifiers on the
GAME board. Also check for broken potentiometers on the game board.

http://ionpool.net/arcade/tech/6100_faq.pdf

[ChadTower]

Ah, different test point.  I usually do it at the test points in the AVG section.  You don't even have to have the monitor to do that.

[Spyridon]

Ah, different test point.  I usually do it at the test points in the AVG section.  You don't even have to have the monitor to do that.

I used the test points on the AVG board.

[Kevin Mullins]

Ah, different test point.  I usually do it at the test points in the AVG section.  You don't even have to have the monitor to do that.

I used the test points on the AVG board.

I usually start there too and work my way out towards the monitor..... but it was the voltage findings portion that I really should have made note of.

The correct voltage should be in the +0.5 to -0.5 volt range (basically zero volts).
The voltage will fluctuate because of changing deflection signals. If the measured voltage
is between 5 and 15 volts (positive or negative), then check the X and Y amplifiers on the
GAME board. Also check for broken potentiometers on the game board.

And of course there will be slight variances whether the game is in "play" mode or "test" mode. Test mode will generally give more stable voltages and not fluctuate near as much.

[Spyridon]

Those wouldn't happen to be DC measurements, would they? 

My DMM has one setting for both AC and DC measurements.  The meter automatically adjusts to the correct setting.

[ChadTower]

My DMM has one setting for both AC and DC measurements.  The meter automatically adjusts to the correct setting.

Ew!  What if you want to check for AC ripple on a DC circuit?

[Level42]

Some Flukes do this too, but you can always override it. It's those pushbuttons type meters. However, I've always used the regular "dial" setting Flukes for my work because they are the easiest in every day use.

[Spyridon]

The correct voltage should be in the +0.5 to -0.5 volt range (basically zero volts).
The voltage will fluctuate because of changing deflection signals. If the measured voltage
is between 5 and 15 volts (positive or negative), then check the X and Y amplifiers on the
GAME board. Also check for broken potentiometers on the game board.

Okay, I checked again.  x-out is fluctating.  y-out is steady at 13.44.

"then check the X and Y amplifiers on the GAME board."

Where are the X and Y amplifiers and how do I check them?

[Level42]

Sorry, I forgot: can you play "blind" with this PCB set now ? I mean can you credit it and start a game and hear the sounds ?

Also, you measured the X and Y on the AVG board (the one on the PCB game-set) right ? With or without the monitor connected ?

The amplifiers on the game board are the circuits behind the DAC converters. Look up sheet 14A in the schematics drawings and you find the Y- (and X-) axis outputs. I guess it would be possible to do a bit of a compare between the X and Y axis points to see if you can find a bad IC.

Game PCB board repair can be very difficult. I struggled with my Centi board but managed to repair it. However, a SW boardset is a pretty complicated set of boards.

[Spyridon]

Sorry, I forgot: can you play "blind" with this PCB set now ? I mean can you credit it and start a game and hear the sounds ?

Game is playing blind

Also, you measured the X and Y on the AVG board (the one on the PCB game-set) right ? With or without the monitor connected ?

I measured it on the AVG board with the monitor connected

[Level42]

OK, what do the X and Y do without the monitor connected ?

[Spyridon]

OK, what do the X and Y do without the monitor connected ?

I'll check and see


This was posted over at the KLOV forums regarding my problem:

Had a smiliar problom on my sw, it was a bad vector generator chip on the video board, I changed it out and bingo spot killer off game came up! I'm pretty sure arcadechips.com has them still, I think they are about 25.00

[ChadTower]

Which is, of course, part of the AVG circuit Kevin told you to check...

[Spyridon]

Which is, of course, part of the AVG circuit Kevin told you to check...

Yes, but knowing what I need to check and knowing how to check it are two different things.  I'm kind of at a standstill here as I don't know if I can fix this myself or not.

[Spyridon]

Haven't made any progress in getting this working, so I thought I would at least get started on replacing the overlay.

Came off easier that I expected.  Just 4 screws holding it in place


The old Fire Fox overlay peeled right off with no effort


I guess I'll hang on to this.  Don't expect to ever get a Fire Fox, but this overlay could be reused if needed


Looks like the white backing on most of the overlay stayed in place.  I'll get the drill with the wire wheel attachment out and strip this right off.  After that I'll hit it with a new coat of paint before applying the new overlay.

[ChadTower]

Which is, of course, part of the AVG circuit Kevin told you to check...

Yes, but knowing what I need to check and knowing how to check it are two different things.  I'm kind of at a standstill here as I don't know if I can fix this myself or not.

Very true.  The best way I can think of on those chips is to order some spares.  Desolder the ones in there, put in some good sockets, and swap them with the new ones.  See what happens.  If you want to now you can swap the X and Y to see if the problem switches to the other one.

[Spyridon]

In order to remove the remaining parts of the Fire Fox overlay, I clamped the piece to a board to hold it in place for removal.


Using a wire wheel attachment on my drill, the white overlay remains easily came off


Next I hit it with a coat of Rustoleum satin black paint.  That will keep any rust from forming and give the new overlay a nice clean spot to adhere to.

still wet:

[ChadTower]

I was just in the shed taking pics of the finished electrical project and noticed that my Star Wars has no red in the art either.

[Spyridon]

I was just in the shed taking pics of the finished electrical project and noticed that my Star Wars has no red in the art either.

Both sides or just one?  Seems to be common to have the red faded.

[RayB]

I was just in the shed taking pics of the finished electrical project and noticed that my Star Wars has no red in the art either.

Both sides or just one?  Seems to be common to have the red faded.

I guess I'm lucky. One side is red (very slight fading), other side is pink.

[Spyridon]

Which is, of course, part of the AVG circuit Kevin told you to check...

Yes, but knowing what I need to check and knowing how to check it are two different things.  I'm kind of at a standstill here as I don't know if I can fix this myself or not.

Very true.  The best way I can think of on those chips is to order some spares.  Desolder the ones in there, put in some good sockets, and swap them with the new ones.  See what happens.  If you want to now you can swap the X and Y to see if the problem switches to the other one.

Where can I order these chips?  I looked at arcadechips.com but I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

[ChadTower]

I don't have that info on hand at the moment but it's in the manual as well as written on the chips themselves (if it hasn't worn off).  IIRC you're looking at DACs and Op Amps most likely for your issue as the likely starting point.

EDIT:  BTW, looked harder at my cab, it does have the red layer but you have to look hard for it.  So faded I hadn't seen it until I looked really closely.

[Spyridon]

I contacted Arcadechips and they do not carry the custom AVG chip.  Anyone know where I can order this from?

[RetroACTIVE]

I contacted Arcadechips and they do not carry the custom AVG chip.  Anyone know where I can order this from?

Arcadeshop?

[Kevin Mullins]

There's always something like this if he still offers them.

http://www.multigame.com/AVG.html

Have you tried swapping the X and Y parts to see if the signal problem moves to the other side?

[Spyridon]

I contacted Arcadechips and they do not carry the custom AVG chip.  Anyone know where I can order this from?

Arcadeshop?

Thanks.  Yep they have a replacement available.

[Spyridon]

Have you tried swapping the X and Y parts to see if the signal problem moves to the other side?

I haven't had a chance to do any work on this yet. 

[Spyridon]

Have you tried swapping the X and Y parts to see if the signal problem moves to the other side?

Okay, I pulled the board out to take a look at


When you say swap the X and Y parts, are you referring to the DAC chips?


Some people have said check the DAC chips, others have said swapping out the AVG chip fixed the issue with their setup.


I'm not great a soldering, so I'm not sure I want to swap those chips unless I have to.  Should I replace the AVG chip first with a new one as a starting point?

Damn, fixing the cabinets is easy.  This stuff is driving me nuts and takes the fun out of it!

[Kevin Mullins]

The quickest and easiest thing to do would be to just swap the AVG chips and see if the problem moves. (since it appears they are socketed)

[Spyridon]

The quickest and easiest thing to do would be to just swap the AVG chips and see if the problem moves. (since it appears they are socketed)

The AVG chip is socketed, but there is only 1

[Level42]

There's only 1 AVG chip, 2 DACs.

Clearly directly soldered. Not recommended to try to get them out if you're not good at soldering. You can do a compare measurement. Run the board and measure each pin on both DACs. See if there are some really off values between the same pins.

[Spyridon]

Run the board and measure each pin on both DACs. See if there are some really off values between the same pins.

1 lead on ground,  1 lead on the pin to measure?

[Level42]

Correct sir.

[ChadTower]

Get some scrap PCBs and practice your soldering.  Anyone doing PCB repair, especially at the IC level, needs to be able to do this.  Find an old VCR or something and desolder a bunch of stuff until you're comfortable with it.  Then you can desolder those chips, solder in sockets, and have the ability to swap them in and out.  If you use good sockets you won't have an issue with them failing later.

If you can get a decent AVG chip and swap it in.  That's your AVG test.

The DACs you would want to remove, socket, and swap.  If the problem follows one chip you know which is bad.  If nothing changes odds are they're both good.  Do the same with the OP Amps.

[Level42]

I'm pretty good at soldering, but my method is cutting the legs when I remove a chip. There's no way he's going to get those DACs out in one piece and not burn the tracks....

Just MHO and my experience.

[ChadTower]

I'm pretty good at soldering, but my method is cutting the legs when I remove a chip. There's no way he's going to get those DACs out in one piece and not burn the tracks....

Just MHO and my experience.

I can do it and I've only been soldering a couple of years.  Caution is definitely the priority here, though.  If he's not confident about it have someone else do it.  But there's no call for cutting out chips as debugging. 

Good use of flux, clean it off with alcohol, an iron at about 700-720, a narrow shaft screwdriver tip, and good efficient suction will get it done.

[HaRuMaN]

good efficient suction will get it done

Truer words have never been spoken...   

[ChadTower]

Saw that joke coming a mile away but I thought it would also include the narrow shaft and alcohol...

[Spyridon]

Get some scrap PCBs and practice your soldering. 

Yep, I was thinking the same thing today.

[Spyridon]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

[Level42]

I told you to check the amps first.......

[ChadTower]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

Did you at least socket the thing in the process?  If you did that it's not a waste of time.

[Spyridon]

I swaped out the AVG chip...no change 

Did you at least socket the thing in the process?  If you did that it's not a waste of time.

AVG was already socketed.  The DAC chips are the ones that are soldered in place.  That's next on my list.

[Level42]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

[ChadTower]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

Or two bad ones... 

Stranger things have happened.

[Spyridon]

The good thing is.........you now have a spare AVG in stock

Or two bad ones... 

Always the optimist Chad!   

[Spyridon]

Okay, time for something good on this thread.  I put the new overlay on the yoke this weekend.

Overlay is from ThisOldGame and is really nice


The tools needed - 1 freshsly painted and rust free yoke cover, 1 overlay, 1 burnishing tool


I started out by lining up the overlay and using some masking tape to hold it in position.


Starting from the top, I cut the backing off the top 2 inches and applied it.  Then removing the tape, I slowly worked from top to bottom setting the overlay in position.  Use the plastic burnishing tool to push down and get a good seal.  The holes weren't a perfect match, but pretty close (and when screwed in place you won't see anything wrong)


And the finished product:

Looks much better than what I started with:


Back in its rightful place (now if only the game worked!)

After and Before shots:

[Spyridon]

No love for the new overlay?   

Anyway, I contacted Rich at ThisOldGame and I'm sending him the Fire Fox overlay.  Since it came off in such good shape I thought it would be good to get it scanned.  Since Rich has all the templates setup for the SW overlay, it should be an esay project for him.  I don't think I'll ever pick up a Fire Fox, but this hopefully can help some others out.  Rich is sending me a free t-shirt as a thank you.    (he has some people that have asked about getting this done)

[Spyridon]

Wow, look at the difference.  Here is a comparison between the ThisOldGame's overlay and Arcadeshops.

TOG:

Arcadeshop:

[Spyridon]

Okay, back to the problems with this game not working.  I found someone skilled in the art of soldering to add sockets to my DAC chips.



This allowed me to swap the chips around.  Y-out is still pegged at 13.44 and not moving.  Swaping the DAC chips had no change.

I'm open for suggestion on what to try next   

[RetroACTIVE]

Okay, back to the problems with this game not working.  I found someone skilled in the art of soldering to add sockets to my DAC chips.

This allowed me to swap the chips around.  Y-out is still pegged at 13.44 and not moving.  Swaping the DAC chips had no change.

I'm open for suggestion on what to try next   

I've only been playing around with SW for a bit... and I've read through what you've done... I'm not sure if I was able to tell from the posts if you checked the TLO82's (x/y drive amps) on the AVG board.  There are 2 amps per package and each X and Y circuit uses one 8 pin DIP.  They are clearly labeled on the schematic.

Ideally you would use a scope and look at input vs. output to see if the op-amp(s) are doing their job....(thats what I do) but I suppose you could use a DVOM however it may be difficult to detect.  The good news is if it is a bad op-amp those TLO-82's are dirt cheap and easily obtainable.

Like I said... not sure if you did this already... if so... sorry for the repeat.
 

[Spyridon]

I'm not sure if I was able to tell from the posts if you checked the TLO82's (x/y drive amps) on the AVG board.  There are 2 amps per package and each X and Y circuit uses one 8 pin DIP.  They are clearly labeled on the schematic.

Ideally you would use a scope and look at input vs. output to see if the op-amp(s) are doing their job....(thats what I do) but I suppose you could use a DVOM however it may be difficult to detect.  The good news is if it is a bad op-amp those TLO-82's are dirt cheap and easily obtainable.

I have not looked at them. The only things I played around with were the two DAC chips.

[Level42]

He's just ignoring us I guess:

I told you to check the amps first.......

 



Just noticed: the pictures of those yokes all show some bolts going through the handles. The one with the Arcadeshop decal seems to have two. These are not standard, guess ops installed them because the handles were moving ? It looks fugly.....I'd check with David for a couple of new handles.....

[Spyridon]

He's just ignoring us I guess:

I told you to check the amps first.......

Not ignoring you...I thought that's what I was doing when I swaped the DAC chips.   

[Level42]

I'm sorry, since my education was in electronics I keep assuming some "basic" things to be known by all collectors. Just my fault....

The DAC's are Digital to Analogue Converts. They convert a digital signal into an analog signal and nothing else.

The Op-Amps Amplify the signals so they are strong enough to drive the monitor. Let me check the schematics....

[Level42]

I've included the page of the schematics. To the left you see the DAC's. The amps are all the triangle shaped figures. Note that some of these are in the same IC ! (Those IC's have f.i. 4 amps in one package)

[Spyridon]

I'm sorry, since my education was in electronics I keep assuming some "basic" things to be known by all collectors. Just my fault....

The DAC's are Digital to Analogue Converts. They convert a digital signal into an analog signal and nothing else.

The Op-Amps Amplify the signals so they are strong enough to drive the monitor. Let me check the schematics....

Thanks for the explanation.  I don't have a background in this but I'm trying to learn.  Right now I'm reading this:

[Spyridon]

I've included the page of the schematics. To the left you see the DAC's. The amps are all the triangle shaped figures. Note that some of these are in the same IC ! (Those IC's have f.i. 4 amps in one package)

Excellent!  I was able to follow most of that.  I did locate the Amps and I tested each pin with my DMM.  Here are the results:


As you can see, there are definitely some outliers on 9 B/C.  The good news, is that this is also part of the y-axis which is the one that was not correct. 

[Level42]

Did you measure AC or DC voltage?

I assume to ground ?

[Spyridon]

Did you measure AC or DC voltage?

I assume to ground ?

Yes, measured to ground.  My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

[ChadTower]

My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

Ew!  Replace that!

There are times you want to measure the AC on a DC circuit.

[Level42]

My DMM only has one setting for voltage regardless of AC or DC.

Ew!  Replace that!

There are times you want to measure the AC on a DC circuit.

+100

[Level42]

Spyri, I will have a look at your measurements and the schematic tomorrow and let you know. The voltages should be AC on the signal pins and DC on some supply pins....

[Level42]

OK the number 8 and 4 pins are "supply" voltages fixed to +15V and -15V as shown on the schematics. So these values are ok.

Apart from not being able to selecet between DC and AC, does the meter have auto-ranging or can you select voltage ranges ?
It's really pretty hard to judge based on the values you give. What was the PCB trying to display when you measured, attract screen ? Or did you put up a test screen ?

If it's attract, I'd expect a number of the other values to vary in time.

To be honest, it looks like all measurements were done in DC, because the values where I'd expect to see a bit of signal in AC show values very close to zero. Are you sure your meter can't be switched between AC and DC, this is _SO_ rare, maybe you simply missed how to do it ?

Pins 6 of 8B/C and 9B/C is where things to start being different between the x and y-axis outputs. However, this could simply mean that the Xcenter pot is way different set compared to the Ycenter pot. Put both of these pots in the exact middle position and measure these pins again and let's know the results.

If the differences keep being so big, I'd say 9B/C is shot. It _looks_ like pin 7 is fixed in DC to the +supply so that amp is probably defective.

But again, not being able to switch between AC and DC is simply unacceptable. For not much money you can buy a DVM that can switch, worth the money IMHO.

(Do you have a pic of your DVM ?)


If I may advise you, I'd invest in something like this:
Fluke

Doesn't really need to be a Fluke, but the select-by-dial is still the best and easiest way to work with a multimeter.
 
By the way, that's extremely cheap for a real Fluke and it includes free shipping from Hong Kong worldwide......I smell something fishy....wait a minute, just checked Fluke's website there is no model 15B.......but man you gotta give it to those Chinese, they do some nice copying.  However, inside there's a meter you can probably buy for 15 bucks.....

[Level42]

Without trying to de-rail the thread, some more info on the Fluke I linked to:

It seems to be a real Fluke ! But the model is only sold in China (15B and 17B).

I asked the seller if this was a real Fluke as I didn't find it on www.fluke.com and almost instantly got a reply (on sunday!):
Hello, this is a absolutely real FLUKE meter. Both the 15B and 17B version are only sell in China market. In there China FLUKE website, you will find the info. about them. Please also refer to other buyer's feedback about the meter. Highly recommend it to all Engineers. IF there is other question, please write to us again. Thank you.

So I thought, yeah right, but after some googling I actually believe he's telling the truth:

http://assets.fluke.com.cn/evtmanuals/15b17b__cmeng0000.pdf

(Look at the URL, .cn =china !)

and:

http://www.flukecommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3096


So, now there are two options:

1) Fluke produces a "less quality" model for the Chinese market and sells it and an affordable (yet still expensive for that market) price....

2) Fluke sells the same quality meter but simply names it differently and puts it in slightly different housing and sells it to the Chinese market at for them affordable price and we in the Western world get greatly SCREWED by the high prices we (or should I say, the _BUSINESS_ market who usually buy Fluke products) have to pay and get ripped off by Fluke.....

My guess ? Option 2 !

So, I actually think this is a serious deal to get a real Fluke !

However, the 110 series doesn't seem to be the highest priced range of meters by Fluke:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLUKE-TRUE-MULTIMETER-110-SERIES-NEW-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX_W0QQitemZ330342391810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ce9f0e002&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


Compare the pictures, Chinese:


Fluke 110:


I'd like to see an inside picture though....

[Spyridon]

(Do you have a pic of your DVM ?)

[Level42]

See, you DO have a AC/DC select button ! It's right there in the middle under the display....right over the "Craftsman" logo.

It also doubles as a select button between real Ohms (resistance) measuring and "diode-tester/continuity measuring.


Now write 100x:

I shall read the manual before using any equipment.

 

http://www.metersupport.com/manuals/82175.pdf

Man, look at this, there's an interactive on-line tutorial of how to use it......even Fluke doesn't have that:

http://www.metersupport.com/virtualDemos/82175vd.html

Nice !

It also looks like the inputs are covered depending on your selection of voltage or amps measuring. Very nice, this way you can't hook it up wrong. (And blow your meter's fuse). Good feature !

[Spyridon]

   I was just testing you guys!

Okay, I feel a little stupid.  I just wasn't used to the selector not being on the dial.

So, now that we figured that out...the readings above were done with DC.\

[Level42]

Okay, I feel a little stupid. 

You should !  Hey, "We're only human after all"

So, now that we figured that out...the readings above were done with DC.\

Which normally meant you'd have to do them all again....but in this case, you measured in DC and get steady values at pins that normally should have AC values. This shows that there's a good posibility that 9B/C is defective. I'm not saying 100%, but it is very likely.

Some background info you may forget right away, but I'm (poorly) trying to explain why I think 9B/C is bad:
The reason why I think so is that your readings are comparable between the X and the Y stages up to (and including) pin 5 of IC 9B/C and 8 B/C. From there, things start to differ between them.

Pin 5 is the positive input of one of the op-amps in that IC. Pin 7 is the output and that's the first point where you have a different reading (stuck high it seems). Pin 6 is the negative input of the op-amp and it's also stuck high but a little lower because that input 6 is used as a feedback from the output 7 through resistor R73.

[Spyridon]

As you can see, there are definitely some outliers on 9 B/C. 

Just an update on this.  I have a guy replacing this chip for me.  He said that it literally crumbled to pieces as he was desoldering it from the board.  That was some of the best news I've heard!  Hopefully this was the problem and I can get this working again.  Will have the board back in a couple of days.

[Level42]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Would save a lot of time. Also remember that that IC can have gone bad because some other part on the board being defective. Not trying to worry you unnesseraly but don't get your hopes up too high. Part replacing can be a lot of trial and error.


Crumbling sounds like the IC _was_ bad though Cooked itself....

[Spyridon]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Soldering is a skill that I am not great with.  It is something that I plan on working on.  I'm going to order something like this soldering kit

to practice on.

I didn't want to risk messing up the SW board set at this point. 

[HaRuMaN]

Just buy some cheap electronics, VCR's etc, at a thrift shop.  Take apart, practice all day. 

[Level42]

Rule 1 in soldering: let the solder do the work !

[MaximRecoil]

Seeing your great skills on restoring cabs Spryri, I think you would be more than able to do solderings yourself

Soldering is a skill that I am not great with.  It is something that I plan on working on.  I'm going to order something like this soldering kit to practice on.

I didn't want to risk messing up the SW board set at this point. 

I used to teach new hires to solder at the PCB factory I worked at. In my experience, anyone can do it, though not everyone will become great at it. When I say "great", it is mostly with regard to speed (important on a production line, not so important for a hobby). Anyone can produce quality joints.

We did both through-hole and surface-mount soldering, but in this hobby, you generally only have to worry about through-hole. Fortunately, it is the easiest type of soldering to do.

In through-hole soldering, you have the pad and the post. The sole function of the iron is to heat the pad and post to a temperature that is hot enough to melt the solder (note that the pad and post will be melting the solder, not the iron directly). With a good iron, and the typical sizes of pads and posts in this hobby, they should reach sufficient temperature to melt solder nearly instantly. If you want the best tool for the job, get a Metcal. They are not necessary, but they do put you ahead of the game.

So with the iron in your right hand (assuming you are right-handed), place the tip so that it is making good contact with both the pad and the post simultaneously (the right side of the pad and post). Immediately after doing this, with the solder wire in your left hand, press the wire down into the left side of the pad and post, as if you were trying to thread the solder wire down through the hole in the pad. Remember; it is the hot pad and post melting the solder, not the iron directly; and you don't have to move the solder wire around in an effort to distribute it evenly; just push it straight in from the opposite side that your iron is on; the solder will automatically distribute itself evenly. As you are doing this (in a smooth, steady, somewhat rapid single motion), the solder wire will be melting and filling up the hole in the pad and then it will start to rise up the post.

When you've pressed in enough solder wire so that the molten solder has risen to nearly the top of the post, pull the wire and iron away simultaneously. If you've done this correctly, the fillet (solder joint) will be smooth and shiny, and be shaped like the Atari "Fuji" logo. If the fillet is rough, grey, and misshapen (known as "goose pooping"), then something went wrong, and it should be removed and redone. If the fillet is smooth and shiny, yet shaped like a bubble or dome, then you added too much solder. Remove some/most of the solder with wick or a solder sucker and redo the joint. You don't want to be endlessly redoing joints though, because too much heat can damage/lift the pad; so get a good feel for soldering on something that doesn't matter before doing it for real.

Also, make sure you have some good, small diameter solder. I use 63/37 .025" diameter flux-core (no-clean) solder made by Alphametals. 

[Spyridon]

Good post MaximRecoil

[Spyridon]

Update on this.  Had all four of the chips replaced with new ones.  When I powered up, the spot killer was blinking very rapidly.  The screen was trying to draw a picture and would flash what looked to be one of the x-wing parts that fires the shots but it was in the wrong spot.  Did that for a few minutes and now the spot killer is on full with nothing on the screen.

I measured the x and y outs and they are both outputting the correct values.  There was definitely a problem with the chip, but now that it's fixed I still have problems?  Guess it's time to refocus on the monitor.

Suggestions on what to try next?

[Level42]

Test mode.

[Spyridon]

The game works!!!!     

I borrowed an oscilliscope from someone at work today.  I wanted to determine if the board was the problem or the monitor.  I remembered Level42 doing this in his Star Wars thread.

First, I hooked up my Asteroids Deluxe board to make sure I had the scope configured correctly.  I quickly had asteroids flying all over the scope. (pretty cool)

I then hooked it up to Star Wars and tried it out.  All I got was a big spot in the center.  Okay, I can see why the spot killer would be on!  I now know that I still have a board problem and not a monitor problem.  I still had the new AVG chip that I had tried out earlier with no success.  I hadn't tried it since I replaced the Amps so I pulled the board out a swapped the new chip in.  Plugged the board back in and BINGO...We've got Star Wars!!!!

End result is I had two problems with the board.  Bad TLO82 Amp and a bad AVG chip.

[Spyridon]

Game works but I'm still having issues.  Game starts out fine with a nice crisp picture, but then starts to get blurry as you play.  By the time you reach the second level, everything is really blurry and barely playable.  Eventually, the monitor screen just goes black.

Occassionaly, hitting the side of the cab brings the montor back on (but not everytime). (yeah, I got frustrated and tried that approach)

This problem was present since I got the game.  I originally thought it was the loose neckboard, but that doesn't seem to be it.  B+ measued 179V when the monitor was working, but dropped to a nominal number when nothing on the screen.

Any ideas on what would cause this?

[Level42]

Hah, so at least I was right about the amp Tough one that the AVG was also bad.... and now the monitor problem.....you're not actually really lucky with this SW my friend....

Now you have a working board-set we can move back to the WG6100. I forgot what monitor was in there,but I could say you should rewind to the first pages of this thread for lot's of WG6100 tips.

First: >>> check the solderings of the connectors on the deflection board !!! <<<
The fact that you can "bring it back to life" by hitting the poor cab is indicating bad contacts/solderings. And it's the very thing I've experienced with the one WG6100 I've worked on so far that especially the connectors on the deflection board have often very bad solderings or the tracks are cracked right near the soldering pads.

Rewind to here for pics etc.:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=90963.msg957058#msg957058

By the way, no need to test the transistors anymore. The fact that it can run fine tells you that the transistors themselves are fine. (Transistors don't go good-bad-good, they are either good or bad and if bad stay bad.

So, the hunt for bad solderings and poor connections is open. Did you install a LV6100 or LV2000 already by the way ? I'd advice you to do that. Plus of course the regular cap-kit.

Keep on it, you'll get it fixed, you've already tackled the really hard part (the PCB set).

Oh, and of course you should download this:
http://www.ultrathegame.com/tempest/6100_faq.pdf
and read it. Then read it again. Not _everything_ in there is neccesary or "the truth". There are so many mod suggestions that it puzzles me and so I ignored them, but I did to the Zener diode mod to protect the inputs.

[Spyridon]

Yeah, it feels good to actually know that the board works and I can focus on the monitor.

The monitor has the LV6100 mod in it already.  It's recently been capped as well.  I'll start with reflowing the solder connections as that seems to have a high probability of being the problem.


I've got a copy of the WG Vector Monitor Guide and will be reading through it (again)

[Level42]

Sounds good, you're really close. I've been puzzling for a long time before I figured out it was actually the board itself acting up when I was working on that WG.

I much (very much) prefer the Amplifone.

Be sure to do a continuity check on the soldering of all pins on the connectors and to where the PCB tracks leads to. This way you can check for any PCB track breaks.

[Spyridon]

Having the o-scope was really handy.  I quickly was able to determine that the problem was the board and not the monitor.  I guess having a spare 6100 (or a tempest  ) would have helped as well.

By the way, Asteroids looks really cool on an o-scope!

[Level42]

 

or better, movie !!

[Spyridon]

or better, movie !!

I don't have a good video camera, but I did film it with my Blackberry.  Youtube is giving me a problem and won't let me create an account.  As soon as I figure that out, I will post it.

[Spyridon]

Here are some videos.  (poor quality is due to using my Blackberry to film these)

Star Wars board problems.  This is why the spot killer was on:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-YsaU6LyZs[/youtube]


Asteroids Deluxe on the scope:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXHTuKq4f6I[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-_hyPE8KVg[/youtube]

[Level42]

Quality is no that  bad really. That was fun to watch !

Yeah, it's clear to see the function of the spot killer !

[Spyridon]

Last week was a good week.  Not only did I get the board working, but I also won a contest that David over at Ram Controls ran.  You had to pick a number between 1 and 5000.  Closest to his number wins a Premium Star Wars Yoke rebuilt kit.  Well my guess was within 7 of his number so I won the kit


I already hat the standard kit, but was planning on upgrading.  The yoke really needs this as it doesn't sit in the center and during the game, you have to turn the yoke about 30 degrees to line it up with center.

[Level42]

Must have been 4242

My advice for anyone that starts work on a SW yoke: get the full kit.

I didn't and now I still have to get the metal parts because of a broken bolt that I had to drill out, plus the center pin of the left-right shaft was bent. These yokes have been (ab)used over 25 years plus, once you're working on it anyway, get everything brand new. Personaly I want to get the yoke ready and never have to open it up again for anything....it's not exactly the most easy control to work on.

[Spyridon]

Game works but I'm still having issues.  Game starts out fine with a nice crisp picture, but then starts to get blurry as you play.  By the time you reach the second level, everything is really blurry and barely playable. 

Finally got some time to take a look at this.  I removed the HV cage to look at the wire going to the focus pot.  The wire broke right off when I moved it.  I crimped on a new connector and the game played perfectly.  No more blurry picture after the first level.

Now for the first time since this game arrived, I can finally play a complete game

 

Next up: yoke rebuild.  (it really needs it)

[ChadTower]

 

[Level42]

Gearing up for Yoke rebuild too. Superully took all my SW metal parts (plus more) to bring it to "his" powdercoater which does great work at great prices (a lot more interesting price than I've seen here).
When the powder coating is done, it's finally time to re-assemble the yoke and the cab....

[ckong]

Just read this thread today for the first time, and it's very interesting with al the detailed technical information. Best part is that a few people who are located all over the world, are able to virtually work together and tackle a problem with success. 

[Spyridon]

A couple months ago, I purchased an non-working Star Wars board that had Mark Spaeth's ESB kit installed on it (Thaks to our very own FrizzleFried for the board and kit  ).  Well today, I finally got around to transferring the kit to my board.  It was more complicated than I expected, but really nothing more than pulling socketed chips and adding in the kit.  

It works!    I just need to get a momentary switch to be able to swap the games (right now I can touch the bare wires together to switch).  Never played ESB before, but it does have some cool sounds clips from the movies.

I then plugged in the bad board to see what the issues are.  I'd like to repair this and sell it to get my money back.  I should be able to sell the working board for at least what I paid for the board and ESB kit.

The game plays with all sounds correct, but has some graphics glitches.  No errors are detected during the self test.

Here is what it looks like:


Any thoughts on what to look at?

[Level42]

Judging on the first screen, could this be the rare "Warp Speed" version

It looks kinda cool the way that the ships seem to "warp" around.....never seen this behaviour before. Maybe the people on the vectorlist can help ?

Does it go through the tests normally ?

[Spyridon]

Here are some photos of the 3 components of the multi-kit

Sound board connection:


AVG board connection:


CPU board connection:



While swapping the kit from one board set to anther

I noticed a few things that were different on my board.

First, the interconnect card that connects the three boards together on mine isn't original.  It is one of Clay Cowgils reproductions



Second, and this one seems odd, on the board I pulled the kit from, there is a test tab and "HALT" screened onto the board.  Mine does not have this:

[Spyridon]

Does it go through the tests normally ?

Yes, all tests are fine.  Also, I swapped AVG chips and no change.

[Level42]

Looks like you got the first MS kit. I have no clue what the problem can be...sorry.

[RayB]

How much would you sell the working board for?

[Spyridon]

How much would you sell the working board for?

The working board is the one in my game (now with ESB kit) and not for sale.  The non-working one will be for sale, but I'd like to get it working first.

[Level42]

My advice: keep a back-up board-set.

I've got back-up parts for almost anything: PCB set (a working set for less than 18 Euro's ! ), a free (cannibalized but restorable) HV board, 2 deflection boards that also need to be restored, an extra HVT and hell I even have a spare Amplifone yoke. Of course some vector RAMs, BD509D's etc.
I'd still love to replace the CRT and keep the original as spare....but the costs are a big issue.....and I'm not sure if I can get it as sweetly converged as the original is now...

[RayB]

How much would you sell the working board for?

The working board is the one in my game (now with ESB kit) and not for sale.  The non-working one will be for sale, but I'd like to get it working first.

Let me rephrase my question then: How much would you sell the REPAIRED board for? (I need mine fixed or just replaced with working)