Sinistar Joystick by Groovy Game Gear?

[southpaw13]

Hello, I am thinking about building a Sinistar from scratch.  I will be using Mame and I have a Sinistar control panel.  The joystick hole is bigger than the usual.  What is the correct joystick to use on this game?

Thanks,
Southpaw

[NoOne=NBA=]

A Midway 49-way.

The base on them has a big piece that sits flush with the top of the CP.
This requires a hole that is 1-1/2" through the CP, IIRC.
The overlay only needs a 1/4" or 3/8" hole through it.
I'd have to measure one to be sure, and don't have one handy at the moment.
The overlay will stick to the top of the CP, and then stick to the base of the joystick.

[rackoon]

I'm a huge Sinastar fan aswell, butt can you even get a 49 way anymore?

[Q*Bert_OP]

I'm a huge Sinastar fan aswell, butt can you even get a 49 way anymore?

Sure you can...HAPP part number 50-3100-00. $60 price tag...Ouch

If anybody wants a used 49 way, I have a few left from Blitz conversions...

I think I also have some NOS ones left...

[southpaw13]

If I'm planning on using Mame, can I use a U360 and get the same effect?

[ArtMAME]

You should be able to get the same effect.  I built a Sinistar CP for my MAME cabinet using a Williams 49-way and a GPWiz49 from Groovygamegear.com.  The 49-way gets treated as an analog joystick anyway so an Ultimarc 360 should fit the bill.

Now I have a dedicated Sinistar, so I don't use the panel anymore. 

[fjl]

I use my U360 on sinistar and I'd might as well use a regular joystick cause I tend press it in the full direction trying to control that space ship. The analog part doesn't do as much for the controls. At least I don't think it does. I also find the game incredibly hard. I have yet to destroy Sinistar even once.

[Bender]

is there a was to adjust the analog sensitivity in Mame so the 360 works better?

[Ummon]

I use my U360 on sinistar and I'd might as well use a regular joystick cause I tend press it in the full direction trying to control that space ship. The analog part doesn't do as much for the controls. At least I don't think it does. I also find the game incredibly hard. I have yet to destroy Sinistar even once.

You probably haven't found a medium of control yet. I've destroyed Sinistar with a digital stick, and I'm nothing special at the game.

[u_rebelscum]

is there a was to adjust the analog sensitivity in Mame so the 360 works better?

The quickest improvement is to decrease -joystick_deadzone from the default 0.30 (=30%) to 0-5%, and increase -joystick_saturation from the default 0.85 (=85%) to 95-100%.  (Make sure you have the u360 set up correctly with correct restrictor first though.)

The feel still won't be the same as the original, but IIRC mame's defaults make going slow impossible.  If you can't go fast in diagonals, bring the -joystick_saturation back down.

[Xiaou2]

 Sinistar used a special 49way - which is very different from the Happs version.

 The original used a special rubber 'x'  that keeps the thing centered.  Unlike
springs,  the x shape changes the way the resistance forces work.

 The further you press away from the center... the more resistance you will get,
as you are pulling 3 other legs of the spider.

 In a typical analog or 49 way stick... they have the greatest resistance in
the center.  Once you move past the sticky center... it becomes very easy
to move the stick.  Too easy - as you accidentally move from center to the
very edge of the stick.

 
With the original stick,  Because it takes a lot more force to go from center to edge...  it makes it very easy to control the speeds much more accurately.


 I made an  "x'   for an analog stick from a rubber bike tire + some
metal grommets.

 
 And btw -  The first level Beating Sinistar  is not that hard... but trying to
beat level 2 or 3 without the proper controls will be nearly impossible.

[Bluedeath]

 In a typical analog or 49 way stick... they have the greatest resistance in
the center.  Once you move past the sticky center... it becomes very easy
to move the stick.  Too easy - as you accidentally move from center to the
very edge of the stick.

Saitek sticks have an uniform response because the only centering spring is mounted in a way that pushes down  instead of 2 different springs (one per axis) but they are to weak the right resistance is available on the old flcs from trustmaster or the F22 they have very hard springs and is impossible to "overcontrol" (sorry but i don't' remember the English word)

[Xiaou2]

Ive seen Saitek sticks method,  as Ive took one apart.    They use a method
that helps keep the transitions smooth in the middle of the stick...  where most
other sticks have issues with  (overcoming the center force)   

 However,   Once you are past the center to a certain degree... the resistance isnt very strong at all.   

 The sinistar stick has a much stronger resistance slope the further you move
outwards.

 In the version I built,  I actually made it so that it took more pressure than
the original sticks... which made control even easier.

[Xiaou2]

Original Stick resistor:



 The one I built:

[southpaw13]

I saw on the GGG website:

"GroovyGameGear.com will soon offer it's own 49-way unit. It will be based on the opto-mechanics of the HAPP/Midway sticks, but with a number of custom parts designed specifically for the home arcade enthusiast and GP-Wiz49 interface. Did we mention it will also have a ball top?"

I wonder how the production is coming along?

[Kaytrim]

Randy has been working on this off and on for a year or two.  When he feels it is ready he'll make an announcement.  I would also like to know how things are going though.

TTFN 
Kaytrim

[divemaster127]

I stock the 49 way happ sticks
dm

[southpaw13]

I also remember getting Sinistar working with a spinner and it played pretty good.  Can anyone test it?  I am not setup right now.

Thanks....

[Xiaou2]

 While someone might be able to hack  Sinistar to point to the proper direction
with a spinner... there would be no way to control the speeds accurately.

 Sinistar has an analog speed control... and its really needed.

 You must go extremely slow to pick up the crystals when they pop out of the
rocks.   Yet, you much also be ready to fly at high speed to get away from enemies
or to get to the next asteroid.


 Now, it might be interesting if you can use a gas pedal to control the speed
with the spinner to control the directions.

[RandyT]

Sinistar used a special 49way - which is very different from the Happs version.

 The original used a special rubber 'x'  that keeps the thing centered.  Unlike springs,  the x shape changes the way the resistance forces work.

 The further you press away from the center... the more resistance you will get, as you are pulling 3 other legs of the spider.

 In a typical analog or 49 way stick... they have the greatest resistance in the center.  Once you move past the sticky center... it becomes very easy to move the stick.  Too easy - as you accidentally move from center to the
very edge of the stick.

There's some good and bad info mixed together here, unfortunately. 

The 49-way stick used in a Sinistar machine (Williams style) used a ball pivot and had the rubber spider to center.  While this does provide a different feel than the Midway variety (The one HAPP started manufacturing), the Midway / HAPP 49 stick is much, much closer to this feel than any spring centered stick can deliver.  It should also be noted that the differing mechanical design of the two have as much to do with the different feel as the centering mechanisms do, but that's another discussion.

Both the Midway and the new HAPP manufactured varieties use rubber grommets.  With a rubber grommet, just as with a rubber spider, the further one pushes in a given direction, the more resistance one will encounter.  Whomever re-designed the HAPP variety made a very poor choice, IMHO,  when selecting the grommet to use, so they should be replaced if you purchase a new HAPP version.

The fact that the HAPP / Midway 49's use a rubber grommet for centering (as the classic games all did originally) instead of a spring is why I personally won't use any other stick.  The feel is just much better for the games I like to play.  They are very different from spring centered sticks and shouldn't be lumped together with them in the context of this discussion.

RandyT

[Kaytrim]

Randy,

I was hoping you would jump in with some information on your new GPWiz49 and Joystick.    You keep introducing new products but still nothing on this front.

[TPB]

Hi Randy,

Good to see you've popped into this thread.


Any news on these developments ?

I saw on the GGG website:

"GroovyGameGear.com will soon offer it's own 49-way unit. It will be based on the opto-mechanics of the HAPP/Midway sticks, but with a number of custom parts designed specifically for the home arcade enthusiast and GP-Wiz49 interface. Did we mention it will also have a ball top?"

I wonder how the production is coming along?

Randy has been working on this off and on for a year or two.  When he feels it is ready he'll make an announcement.  I would also like to know how things are going though.

[southpaw13]

From Randy:  " Whomever re-designed the HAPP variety made a very poor choice, IMHO,  when selecting the grommet to use, so they should be replaced if you purchase a new HAPP version."

So what do you replace it with???

Thanks....

[TPB]

From Randy:  " Whomever re-designed the HAPP variety made a very poor choice, IMHO,  when selecting the grommet to use, so they should be replaced if you purchase a new HAPP version."

So what do you replace it with???

Randy probably has these in mind :

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=275

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=216

[Ummon]

Randy probably has these in mind :

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=275

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=216

?...you'd think he would've mentioned he had 'em.

[RandyT]

?...you'd think he would've mentioned he had 'em.

 

If I did, the message would probably have carried less weight.  I try to focus on good info rather than buzzwords and links that I think will make me a sale (well, unless it's a new product announcement.  I let some marketing speak sneak into those.   )

As you can replace them from other sources than me (as long as you ream them out to accommodate the larger diameter shaft used in the HAPP version....tricky, but doable), I didn't bother with a link.  But since it has been brought up, yes, these will make people much happier with their HAPP 49-ways, which apparently use neoprene grommets.  The original Midway sticks already have the good, gum rubber grommets, so as long as they aren't cracked and brittle, they don't need to be replaced. 

You can tell which version you have by the diameter of the shaft.  The Midway are about a quarter inch, while the HAPPs are larger at about .310".

RandyT