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Author Topic: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<  (Read 41852 times)

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Level42

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 05:29:30 pm »
Finally!! And I also need a DK cab.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 05:46:31 pm »
Do you need a special board for it or will it work on the DK 2-board or 4-board (original)?
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 07:33:52 pm »
I'm guess I'll ask what everyone is thinking. How long until this is dumped and playable in Mame?  >:D

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 11:09:50 pm »
It's probably playable right now.  A set of DKII roms will probably run if you just rename them to dkong.zip.  If not, it can't be that hard to make a few changes to get them up and running.

But I hope nobody who buys a DKII kit will dump and distribute the roms.  If they spread on the net, the creator will know about it, and know he's losing money he ought to be making selling kits.  That's the kind of thing that can leave a bad taste in a guy's mouth, the kind of thing that can keep him from ever doing another similar project.  And I'd like to see more.

Besides, copyright theft from a mega-corp like Sony just isn't the same as copyright theft from some hobbyist guy.  I know they're both wrong, and both equal crimes in the eyes of the law, and blah blah blah.  But they're still not the same.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2007, 10:35:57 am »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2007, 10:42:04 am »
But I hope nobody who buys a DKII kit will dump and distribute the roms.  If they spread on the net, the creator will know about it, and know he's losing money he ought to be making selling kits.  That's the kind of thing that can leave a bad taste in a guy's mouth, the kind of thing that can keep him from ever doing another similar project.  And I'd like to see more.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2007, 10:42:32 am »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
You would need permission to make anything with the Donkey Kong name since it's copyrighted by Nintendo.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 10:45:22 am »
True enough and while I am not completely sure of the true legal aspects, I do think that things are somewhat mitigated by the fact that you need an original DK boardset to use this -- it is an extension rather than a standalone (like the various highscore and enhancement kits out there).

EDIT: I do see a distinction between this and most enhancement kits, but there are some that add levels/features.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:50:01 am by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 10:50:58 am »
It also seems that Nintendo doesn't really care about its arcade past.  It doesn't even mention their arcade games in their history section of their website, just their consoles.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2007, 02:41:23 pm »
I don't give a ..... if it's legal or not. Nintendo has had 25 years to come with a follow up on DK and DKjr (I don't see DK3 as a real DK game personaly....) they didn't bother so .... them.

They're too busy producing Wii's anyway....

Oh and it looks that officially it's called D2K or DIIK.....
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 02:43:33 pm by Level42 »

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2007, 02:58:23 pm »
i dont give a ---fudgesicle--- either but i can see this being dumped and the ensing argument, will people respect the intellectual rights of the guy who made it with no legal right to do so
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2007, 11:13:17 pm »
That's the kind of thing that can leave a bad taste in a guy's mouth, the kind of thing that can keep him from ever doing another similar project.  And I'd like to see more.

Ya..like perhaps a DK Jr. II in the future. I think this guy deserves to make some $$ without some wise guy screwing him over.

I see that this hack requires swapping out some roms on a Braze Kit. Now, if you go and buy a Braze wanting this hack included on it, I wonder if you can save money by buying both at once?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:14:49 pm by WunderCade »

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2007, 12:20:49 am »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?

He probably needs permission to be strictly legal, and he probably doesn't have it.  And I definitely don't care.

Like I said before, it's different when it's a hobbyist and when it's a big corporation.  Not in the eyes of the law, but it's different all the same. 

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2007, 01:29:07 pm »
You see, here's the problem. Everyone assumes that dumping the roms and making it playable in Mame is strictly wrong and stealing on some level. Be it stealing justified because of his lack of license or not. What is wrong with the whole argument is that this ROM hack, this product, can only be used by those who have a working DK board, which is a very small number of us. However thanks to Mame, there is a great deal more interest in the set than there are people with DK cabs/boards. By releasing only a ROM chip set, the author has completely ignored a majority of his market, so it is inevitable that his work will be dumped and distributed freely eventually because the market demands it.

Now if he provided the means for demand to actually be met by selling ROM dumps to the rest of us who play DK in Mame, then it will allow him to make a little more profit, and will allow the honest DK fans who don't necessarily want to resort to stealing on some level to contribute. But he hasn't provided a way for that to happen. However if he sells his ROM dump independently from the ROM chips, then the plausible denability that he's only a hobbyist selling some chips is gone and now he's selling Nintendo's intellectual property. It's a double-edge sword with the inevitable conclusion of course being piracy on some level.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 01:35:11 pm by Namco »

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2007, 01:50:52 pm »
By releasing only a ROM chip set, the author has completely ignored a majority of his market, so it is inevitable that his work will be dumped and distributed freely eventually because the market demands it.

Because we all know how willing MAMErs are to pay for their ROMS ...  ;) ... and, yes, I know some are (hey, I bought from StarROMS), but they are a definite minority, not a majority of the market. The folks on the dark side are more willing to pay for stuff like this, so I don't think that your assessment of the market is quite right.

Oh, and the ROMS are available from ArcadeShop (I missed that important point earlier). They sell them for use on their programmable multiboard.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2007, 09:52:54 pm »
By releasing only a ROM chip set, the author has completely ignored a majority of his market, so it is inevitable that his work will be dumped and distributed freely eventually because the market demands it.

Because we all know how willing MAMErs are to pay for their ROMS ...  ;) ... and, yes, I know some are (hey, I bought from StarROMS), but they are a definite minority, not a majority of the market. The folks on the dark side are more willing to pay for stuff like this, so I don't think that your assessment of the market is quite right.

Oh, and the ROMS are available from ArcadeShop (I missed that important point earlier). They sell them for use on their programmable multiboard.

Oh, so dumps are are for sale then? I am mistaken then. Looks like my dk.zip file is need of an update  ;D

EDIT: Nevermind. $379 programmable multi-pcb jamma board only with the license key copied directly into EEPROM at the time of flashing. So all the Mame enthusiasts can just ignore this and let nature take its course. I'll just go out in the garage and play a little Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition - Rainbow - Red Wave and pretend I never saw this.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 10:10:15 pm by Namco »

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 03:34:05 pm »
Interesting project!  Anyone else puzzled as to why every single level uses only horizontal platforms?
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2007, 02:54:40 pm »
I'm buying a chip for my DK cab, but I hope it's dumped in MAME too since I don't want to go to the machine every time I want to play it =) 

I've been waiting for this for a long time and so have the guys at my work (where the DK cab is).  Can't wait to install it.

Nate

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2007, 12:51:46 pm »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?

Extremely illegal.  It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.

Cool?  Yes.  Legal?  Nope.

Sure would like to play it, though.  :D



yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2007, 10:41:44 pm »
yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.
Haze,
How interested is MAMEDev in this game?  I know that you guys have dumped bootlegs in the past, but not 25 years after the original was released.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2007, 03:21:38 am »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?

Extremely illegal.  It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.

Cool?  Yes.  Legal?  Nope.

Sure would like to play it, though.  :D



yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.

I disagree. A bootleg is a 1:1 copy of an original game. Very easy to do because you don't have to be creative to design levels, don't have to test drive and improve them, test again, improve further, add stuff that only appear in later levels etc. etc.  Basically this is a new game, using the same characters and basic game mechanics as an original.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2007, 10:03:47 am »
Who cares if you disagree? 

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2007, 10:08:36 am »
Would Ms. Pacman be considered a bootleg of Pacman?

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2007, 10:52:19 am »
Ms.Pac Man WAS a bootleg !! (Crazy Otto)

It was also immensely better than the original....


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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2007, 08:02:53 pm »
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?

Extremely illegal.  It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.

Cool?  Yes.  Legal?  Nope.

Sure would like to play it, though.  :D



yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.

I disagree. A bootleg is a 1:1 copy of an original game. Very easy to do because you don't have to be creative to design levels, don't have to test drive and improve them, test again, improve further, add stuff that only appear in later levels etc. etc.  Basically this is a new game, using the same characters and basic game mechanics as an original.


Not really, a bootleg is a copy made without permission, regardless of if you modified it or not.  There are many other games which are technically bootlegs of existing titles, supported in MAME, Korea are famous for it (they practically built their entire arcade industry out of bootlegging games and disguising them as something new)

I don't argue that some creative effort has gone into making 'DK2', but it remains an illegally modified and distributed copy of an original Nintendo game, therefore it's still a bootleg.  Most bootlegs are _not_ 1:1 copies.



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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2007, 08:33:16 pm »
I believe this comes under the heading of a "Hack" rather than a "Bootleg".  A very extensive, very well done hack.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 03:59:55 am »
Whatever we call it I think it is totally fantastic that it's here. I think that it takes a little more than just "some" creative effort to design 4 new, challenging levels of DK game play, that as far as they look seem at least as challenging as the original levels. I would love it if we'd see this happen for more games. Of course DKjr comes to mind right away, but there are lots and lots of other possibilities. How about some new SW/ESB missions (hey, one can dream right ?)

If I'd own a DK cab, I would have pre-ordered mine already....

I say a big  :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: to the creator of this.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2007, 01:36:08 pm »
"bootleg" is a term that means "counterfeit product" passed off as the real thing. So say if this guy went on ebay and sold these as authentic DK game boards.. well, they aren't authentic. I'd call em bootlegs in that context.

And the coding is a hack. Just like Ms Pac started as a hack, manufactured and sold as unauthorized add-on boards.

Any way you slice it or label it, it's not authorized, and IS infringing, but who cares other than Nintendo.

I doubt we'll see this in MAME though. Don't hacks like this end up in that other version of MAME... "WeirdMAME" or whatever it's called... LameMAME, HackYMAME.. crap I can't remember the name.

OH MISFIT MAME! that's it.
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2008, 03:50:32 pm »
D2K would fall under the "pirate-hack" category, which nintendo has and still does sue over, even for the NES.

There were plenty of them made for the NES and some still are.  Games like adventure island have super mario sprites hacked in and then the game is sold as super mario 11 or something.

This fellow is using Nintendo owned characters, music, and code and selling it without Nintendos permission.  For a hefty price, I might add.  Also, if you read carefully, he is also selling the orignial donkey kong as well (selectable via start-up menu)  without Nintendo's permission, which also puts this in the bootleg category and makes it more illegal.

Now had this fellow simply released this as a mame rom or was just charging for the cost of the parts, I wouldn't give a rip.  I actualy think what hes done to the game is pretty cool.   However, this fellow is trying to make money off of someone elses work both in bootleg and hack form, which makes it illegal enough that I will be forwarding his web address to NOA to see what they have to say about it.

-Harry

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2008, 03:57:59 pm »
Uh, Harry ... I trust you're trolling ...

He isn't selling the original DK sprites or stuff because you need to have a board that already runs DK.

If you aren't trolling, then be sure to mention your MAME box to NOA.





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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2008, 04:03:51 pm »
i'm sorrry i asked the question now.
this outcome wasn't my intention at all.
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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2008, 04:18:38 pm »
No, not trolling at all.

He is selling both copywrited nintendo programming along with altered nintendo programming without permission.  Its no different than the mult-game boards that are not allowed to be spoken of on this forum, because 90% of them are illegal.

And yes, I'm sure my mamebox is illegal.  However, I have not and will not make any kind of profit from it as not only does it not contain the correct parts to receive coins, it has "credit" buttons mounted on the outside of the coin door.  I beleive charging people for something you do not own is much more offensive than some hick in the middle of nowhere playing downloaded versions of a 20+ year old game for free, especialy considering there is nowhere within 50 miles to play said games in arcade form, aside from the pizza place that is charging people to use an illegal multi-cade.

but, thats just me.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2008, 04:25:53 pm »
Have a look around at all of the various coin-op multigames, hacks and enhancement packs hacks out there.

Read the 4-page article in Gameroom Magazine about D2K.

Look at the prices of other multigame and enhancement kits and you'll see that it is not a hell of a lot of money.



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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2008, 04:40:21 pm »
I beleive charging people for something you do not own is much more offensive than some hick in the middle of nowhere playing downloaded versions of a 20+ year old game for free, especialy considering there is nowhere within 50 miles to play said games in arcade form, aside from the pizza place that is charging people to use an illegal multi-cade.

but, thats just me.

-Harry

So did you report the pizza place to the authorities? If so what did they say? Or did you as i suspect just build your own cab because you wanted something for free rather than paying for it. You can come up with excuses for your mame cab but at the end of the day you have broken the law. I bet if this gets released as rom by somebody even though the author has put a lot of work in you would happily download it and play for free but because you are having to pay for someones time and hard work you want to be a --cream-filled twinkie-- about. Way to go.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2008, 04:56:51 pm »
Something for free rather than paying for it, huh?  You have no idea.

Come out to central virginia sometime and do a search for any place with arcades.  If there was anyone around that had something more than DDR or the ocasional Ms. pacman, I would gladly pay to play them.  The miniature golf place about 60 miles from here is the only place that has any choice of arcades, and the only things they have is Galaga, Ms.Pacman, the simpsons, and DDR.

In short, I built my cabinet to actualy BE ABLE to play the games.

And before you ask "why didn't you just buy the arcade machine itself", its because there are virtualy none in the area.  Ebay is a dud, and there may be 2 listed in a 2 month period on craigslist.

If it was released for mame, sure I'd play it.  People make romhacks all the time and post them for free.  Do a websearch sometime.  However, he is selling someone elses property for profit to people that could potentialy make profit from it in an actual machine.  Get my drift?

How is this any different from a multi-cade?

-Harry

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2008, 05:09:30 pm »
You don't have any right to play those games just because you live in bumbleville ... if you want to play Donkey Kong on an arcade cabinet, the retail price is US$3500 (used cabinets and parts can, of course, be found for less). Nobody promised you the right to play these games or to find them at a price that YOU like.

If you can't see the difference between a multi-board that is mass-produced to plug into any JAMMA cabinet (kinda like your NES cart comparison) and a kit that has been designed by a hobbyist for other hobbyists that requires you to already be invested with a board that runs the base game, then there isn't much I can say except that you should do some research.

As for your turning him into NOA, make certain that you are consistent with your ethics and mention your use of unlicensed Nintendo ROMs and see if NOA cares where you live.

For my part, I'll be ordering my chips from Jeff ASAP -- before some clueless goofball messes it up for folks who really care about the games and this hobby (which is the part that has really raised my ire).

 :-\

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2008, 05:14:17 pm »
Harry, everything you say to justify your Mame box doesn't make it anymore legal.

The guy that did DK2 put a load of work in it. I think it's fair he gets some money for it and I think the price is reasonable enough ($25,-)

I agree with every word Barcrest wrote.

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2008, 05:17:43 pm »
AND Cheffo....

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Re: >>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2008, 05:25:09 pm »
Thanks Level42 -- I was feeling pretty unappreciated there for a minute ...

I think the problem is that somehow Harry has a lack of understanding about what the actual market for these kits is -- he seems to think that ops are going to grab these up and put a whole bunch of old DK machines on route with new chips.

Otherwise, he is pretty much saying that he would turn in all of the enhancement- and multi-kit vendors because they stand to make a profit helping people upgrade their cabinets and that those cabinets *could* end up out on route.

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