Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards

[buttersoft]

I'm trying to run a GTX 1060 /W10 with the 2nd display connected to a B&O MX4000 using the UMSA. Does anyone know if that is even possible? The Nvidia Control Panel gives me complete control of custom timings but the closest I can get it is a split screen on 540*480i. 

Split screen as in side-by-side identical images? That means you're getting 480p out of the GPU, not 480i. AFAIK there's no way to get 480i or other 15kHz modes out of an Nvidia GPU anywhere near as new as yours while using Windows. You can type what you want into the NVCP, but the driver won't deliver lower than 31kHz/480p. Linux might be another story. Sorry!

[r1ggles]

Seeing that the ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro is supported, is there any possibility of hooking up an iMac (2007) with a VGA output adapter to SCART? From Sweden so our CRT's support RGB scart.

Pretty unfamiliar with this topic still as I just acquired this computer, but figured I'd throw a quick question here before I delve too deeply into how to get analog signals from certain video cards.

[buttersoft]

Late reply, but these day's you're much better off with crt_emudriver and a compatible card. A good place to start is the GroovyMAME subforum on here, which is also the crt_emudriver home, just about.

[retrometro]

  Summary: Anyone using an ATI/AMD HD 5450 or HD 5000 series GPU with Soft15khz?. No luck googling for all but one guy saying he has it "working".

Soft15khz has been serving me well paired with an ATI X700 + WG D9400 for so many years.  Can't thank SailorSat enough like the rest of us here.

However, MAME development has up'd the GPU's minimum Shader Model to at least 3.0 if you're to use DirectDraw/Direct3D.  Unless you set video to GDI and fix your resolution (bleh), you need to have at least a Radeon HD X1000 series GPU from 2005 or later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_X700_series#Radeon_Feature_Matrix

My second solution to this was to "simply" use an ArcadeVGA 3000 which supports Shader Model 4.0.  After many hours however, I've not been successful in having my Wells Gardner D9400 switch resolution/refresh properly.  Here's my thread to troubleshoot that.  Also attached that thread's photo.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,162154.0.html

Which brings me back to my first and original solution which was to buy an ATI card of this vintage/era.  I found that VisonTek still sells new Radeon HD 5450 cards plus they're cheap.  Unfortunately, either or both Soft15khz doesn't support this card outright or I don't have the correct model line entries to get this working.  Once I run the tool whether I "install" just the 15khz, 31khz or "User" (don't know what this means) and reboot, resolutions are all wonky and I have to reset settings by reinstalling the last set of drivers from AMD/ATI:
https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/ati-radeon-hd-5000-series/ati-radeon-hd-5450

So my PC has an old mobo with an OC'd core2duo CPU with a PCIe 1.0 x16 slot.  Short of looking for one of the reportedly compatible cards below (or getting the ArcadeVGA 3000 to work), does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get the HD 5450 to work with Soft15khz?

Thanks for reading this wall of text.  Hopefully someone else will find this post from google days/weeks/months/years later and have a solution other than just getting a new PC setup.     

2012 list of compatible video cards dskinchen compiled.  Is there a more complete or authoritative list?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=119740.0

ATI Radeon Mobile X200
ATI Radeon XPress 200 - "Gigabyte GA-8TRC410MNF-RH
Gigabyte Radeon X300
ATI Radeon X600 PCI-E (ASUS)
ATI Radeon X800 PCI-E (HIS)
ATI Radeon XPress 1250 - "ASUS M2A-VM|HDMI
ATI Radeon XPress 1250 - ASRock 4Core1333-FullHD
ATI Radeon X1650Pro PCI-E (Sapphire)
ATI Radeon X1650Pro AGP
ATI Radeon HD2400Pro PCI-E (Sapphire)
HIS Radeon 2900GT PCI-E
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H (AMD 780G / Radeon HD 3200)
ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-E ATI Radeon HD3850
AGP ATI Radeon HD4350 PCI-E (ASUS)
ATI Radeon HD4350 PCI-E (ASUS)
ATI Radeon HD 4350 works with edid dongle
ATI Radeon HD4650 (Gigabyte HD4650 OC PCI-E - GV-R465OC-1GI)
ATI Radeon HD4670 PCI-E (GIGABYTE model GV-R467ZL-1GI)
Msi radeon 4850 hd 512 mb, gddr3
ATI Radeon HD4870 x2
ATI Radeon HD4850 PCI-E (Sapphire)
ATI Radeon 7000 AGP
ATI Radeon 7500 AGP
ATI Radeon 9200SE AGP - "MSI RX9200SE-T128
ATI Radeon 9200SE PCI - "Sapphire RADEON 9200SE Atlantis"
ATI Radeon 9250 AGP
ATI Radeon 9500 PRO AGP
Palit Radeon 9550
ATI Radeon 9600
ATI Radeon 9600 All-in-Wonder AGP
ATI Radeon 9600Pro AGP
ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 (HP nc6000)
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro AGP

NVidia GeForce FX5200 AGP
NVidia 6100 onboard - Abit NF-M2SV
NVidia GeForce 6150
NVidia GeForce 6600GT AGP
NVidia GeForce 7100 OnBoard
NVidia GeForce 7300GS PCI-E (Gainward Bliss 7300GS)
NVidia GeForce 7300GS PCI-E
NVidia GeForce 7600GS AGP
NVidia GeForce 7600GT AGP
Nvidia GeForce 7950GX2 PCI-E (Leadtek)
Nvidia Geforce 8400 GS
NVidia GeForce 8400GS PCI-E works with edid dongle
Nvidia GeForce 8800GXT PCI-E (Leadtek) works with edid dongle
NVidia GeForce 9500GS PCI-E works with edid dongle
NVidia GeForce 9600GSO PCI-E 768MB DDR2 (EVGA) works with edid dongle
NVidia GeForce2 GTS AGP NVidia GeForce2 Pro AGP
NVidia GeForce4 MX 420 PCI
NVidia Riva TNT2 M64 AGP
NVidia Riva TNT2 AGP
NVidia Quadro4 NVS AGP

Matrox Millenium PCI
Matrox G100 AGP
Matrox Millenium PCI
Matrox P650 AGP

[retrometro]

Just and update in case this post is found by someone else googling months/years from now, I was able to resolve the ArcadeVGA 3000 and my Wells Gardner D9400 on Windows XP x64.  I'll leave the X700 in a box in case I come across another old computer that can be used with Soft15khz.

I'm still interested in getting an ATI HD 5450 working with Soft15khz since even in 2020 they are plenty available new at stores as the bargain GPU.

[Zebidee]

You could use the X700 with that or another XP64 PC and CRT_emudriver because the old driver (1.2) supports that card in XP (not in Win7+).

Soft15khz was great for it's time and I used it lots myself, Sailorsat deserves much kudos, but it is only for very old cards now and CRT_emudriver is frankly much better. While I can imagine using it on a retro machine to emulate stuff even more retro, I can't imagine going back now for any current or future arcade builds.

Don't forget that you can use CRT_emudriver with AVGA cards!

I have a bunch of old AGP video cards from that era that would be great for Soft15khz, including a couple of AVGAs, but no AGP motherboards to build PCs that might use them.

[retrometro]

You could use the X700 with that or another XP64 PC and CRT_emudriver because the old driver (1.2) supports that card in XP (not in Win7+).

I ended up finding a great deal on a couple of 4th gen i5 computers with W10x64 in the cab w/ the Wells Gardner and leaving the X700 in the Core2Duo PC on XP64 but moving it to the home office to TV CRT via s-video.  It's not as nice but much better than an LCD.  The TV is shared with some Pi's and NES/SNES/PSX "Classics".

Soft15khz was great for it's time and I used it lots myself, Sailorsat deserves much kudos, but it is only for very old cards now and CRT_emudriver is frankly much better. While I can imagine using it on a retro machine to emulate stuff even more retro, I can't imagine going back now for any current or future arcade builds.

She certainly does!  Embarrassingly, I don't donate enough to freeware/shareware but I definitely donated to her back in the day.  Worth every penny and more.

I keep seeing CRT_Emu Driver around.  I'll have to look it up as a solution should I want a beefier GPU than the AVGA3000 I got and the AVGA5000 available. 

Don't forget that you can use CRT_emudriver with AVGA cards!

That's good to know!  What are the advantage of using either CRT_emudriver or soft15khz with an AVGA card though since you already have tons of the lower resolutions and 15hz modes?

I have a bunch of old AGP video cards from that era that would be great for Soft15khz, including a couple of AVGAs, but no AGP motherboards to build PCs that might use them.

Even if you found AVGA mobo's laying around, you'll be relegated to old versions of MAME since sometime over the last several years (2016 or 2017?) the MAME project has made shader model 3.0 a minimum requirement unless you use "-video gdi".    This was my primary motivation in ditching the ATI X700 bc it only supported up to shader model 2.0 whereas the AVGA3000 and up are good for several versions up.

[Zebidee]

Just one thing soft15khz still has going for it: the setup is very easy and almost no learning curve. CRT_emudriver is arguably easy to setup as well, but you have to know what you are doing to get the best out of it.

That's good to know!  What are the advantage of using either CRT_emudriver or soft15khz with an AVGA card though since you already have tons of the lower resolutions and 15hz modes?

There are many advantages, but two big ones. First, CRT_emudriver lets you define (& tweak!) any mode you want, not just accept what AVGA gives you. 2nd, even if you don't install any new video modes, CRT_emudriver also lets you take advantage of Groovymame and all of it's refresh-rate-matching-goodness. Games really do play much better and closer to original with Groovymame.

After you install CRT_emudriver, the AVGA still provides a unique advantage in that your bootup etc screens will be output at 15khz always, so you'll never have to worry about what to do while waiting for CRT_emudriver to kick in. Also, if you have some glitch happen where CRT_emudriver gets kicked out, or you have to boot into safe mode or whatever, your AVGA will let you still do things without having to go to the shed and drag an old VGA monitor out to retore your settings.

[Quote from: Zebidee on 31 March 2020, 06:46:53]
    I have a bunch of old AGP video cards from that era that would be great for Soft15khz, including a couple of AVGAs, but no AGP motherboards to build PCs that might use them.

Even if you found AVGA mobo's laying around, you'll be relegated to old versions of MAME since sometime over the last several years (2016 or 2017?) the MAME project has made shader model 3.0 a minimum requirement unless you use "-video gdi".    This was my primary motivation in ditching the ATI X700 bc it only supported up to shader model 2.0 whereas the AVGA3000 and up are good for several versions up.

Yeah - that happened around Mame 0.182 I think.

FYI, I'm running 2 XP64 machines (core2duo, HP SFF ex-desktops) with X1050 SFF cards in them with CRT_emudriver/Groovymame. I set them up in late 2018 with a hacked Groovymame 0.200 build (I edited the source code to remove the d3d pixel shading check so that it would run). I've had zero problems with it, but not sure that the same thing would work with latest Mame (actually, pretty sure that it won't). They are both dual boot XP64/Win7 to make things easier if I ever get around to upgrading.

I'm doing another build on XP64 right now with an HD4650 card, which doesn't have the pixel shading problem, but am getting another problem with the latest x64 mame (well, 0.219 anyway) which looks like an underlying video card/XP/dll problem (the HD4XXX are considered legacy now). So I'll be using Groovymame 0.200 with that too. I've done this PC as a dual-boot to Windows 7 too, to make my inevitable upgrade path easier. In fact, this card works with 0.219 under Win7 so I'll probably migrate there once I've learned a bit more about how to make Attract Mode work the way I want as a front-end (or maybe I'll just hack MameWAH to work better on Win7).

I always make my posts too long, but I think the key message here is that unless you want to be stuck in the past, tinkering constantly to make things work, you have to move to Windows 7+ and newer video cards eventually.

[buttersoft]

Err, the AVGA cards are based on Radeon 3000 or 5000 series models depending, but i thought their using a different bios meant crt_emudriver didn't recognise them and so wouldn't install? Has this changed back again? Never versions of GroovyMAME require newer versions of crt_emudriver to run, as well.

[Zebidee]

Err, the AVGA cards are based on Radeon 3000 or 5000 series models depending, but i thought their using a different bios meant crt_emudriver didn't recognise them and so wouldn't install? Has this changed back again?

I've never done it myself, but I definitely recall reading from multiple different authoritative places that is is possible to install CRT_emudriver on AVGA cards, just like any other AMD card. After all, people re-flash their graphics card BIOS's all the time. I've be interested to know otherwise, guess I should dig around a bit to backup my claim.

Never versions of GroovyMAME require newer versions of crt_emudriver to run, as well.

That's also news to me Buttersoft, and I think not strictly true. I've not had any problems running newer versions of Mame with the old 1.2 driver on XP64 per se.

The problem isn't CRT_emudriver, but the newest versions of Mame (eg 0.219) won't run properly (or at all) on older video cards - and won't run with older versions of DirectX available on XP (ie up to v9). The problem isn't with Groovymame either - I get identical issues with both Groovy and vanilla Mame on XP64 with an HD4650 card - and no problems with same PC/card under Win7. The error messages I'm getting indicate a DirectX/dll issue rather than a CRT_emudriver issue - and it definitely isn't a Groovymame issue.

DirectX has been updated for Win7+, and latest Mame needs that to run. So Win 7 with AVGA5000 or AMD HD5000 series + should be all good?

Clearly I'm going to have to give up on XP for future builds, but that is OK because I've nearly run out of old crap computers and video cards.

Anyway, you know me, I always respect your ideas & keen to be corrected if you have any good sources or direct experience regarding the AVGA cards. Calamity would know, but he won't monitor this board and I don't want to bother him unnecessarily.

[retrometro]

Just one thing soft15khz still has going for it: the setup is very easy and almost no learning curve. CRT_emudriver is arguably easy to setup as well, but you have to know what you are doing to get the best out of it.

That's good to know in the future.  Hopefully CRT_emudriver will still be around in a few years when I decide to upgrade the cab's PC again for performance or other reasons.  I only have one cab and it's the main machine (4th Gen i5 on Win10x64) with a D9400 dedicated to only arcade games.  The previous PC (C2D on XPx64) is now in my home office attached to a regular TV via the ATI X700's s-video out.  No where near as nice as the multi-sync but still preferable to an LCD or older CRT monitor.

There are many advantages, but two big ones. First, CRT_emudriver lets you define (& tweak!) any mode you want, not just accept what AVGA gives you.

What modes do people typically add other than a few resolutions no already covered?  Curious to learn what I may be missing.

2nd, even if you don't install any new video modes, CRT_emudriver also lets you take advantage of Groovymame and all of it's refresh-rate-matching-goodness. Games really do play much better and closer to original with Groovymame.

Sorry I haven't googled first but at a high level, what are the main advantages of Groovymame if you can specify per game resolutions in MAME already?  Typically how far behind in releases is it to the main release?

I'm doing another build on XP64 right now with an HD4650 card, which doesn't have the pixel shading problem, but am getting another problem with the latest x64 mame (well, 0.219 anyway) which looks like an underlying video card/XP/dll problem (the HD4XXX are considered legacy now). So I'll be using Groovymame 0.200 with that too.
...
I always make my posts too long, but I think the key message here is that unless you want to be stuck in the past, tinkering constantly to make things work, you have to move to Windows 7+ and newer video cards eventually.

I can appreciate the desire to keep the OS the same because so many changes have been made since the initial install that replacing or updating other things may be less of a hassle.  But why use XP on new builds?  Win10 doesn't seem too heavy and still runs MAME fine with just 2-4gb of RAM which I imagine many older XP systems had during that era.  As a bonus, Win10 can be ran "free" / without registration while still getting security updates.

[Zebidee]

Buttersoft, a little desktop research seems to confirm that the AVGA cards won't take anything other than very old versions of CRT_emudriver. I just read this thread (which you participated in):

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=151781.0

Seems that haynor666 had the same misconception that I had - heard some old stories, but those methods are no longer available (except maybe under Linux). The CRT_emudriver documentation even lists AVGA 9250 cards as suitable (for the old 1.2 driver anyway)!

[Zebidee]

There are many advantages, but two big ones. First, CRT_emudriver lets you define (& tweak!) any mode you want, not just accept what AVGA gives you.

What modes do people typically add other than a few resolutions no already covered?  Curious to learn what I may be missing.

Seems I was wrong about the AVGA taking crtemudriver. You used to be able to do it. As to what resolutions people want to add... whatever they need. The idea is that the driver takes away such arbitrary limitations on what video modes you can have.

2nd, even if you don't install any new video modes, CRT_emudriver also lets you take advantage of Groovymame and all of it's refresh-rate-matching-goodness. Games really do play much better and closer to original with Groovymame.

Sorry I haven't googled first but at a high level, what are the main advantages of Groovymame if you can specify per game resolutions in MAME already?  Typically how far behind in releases is it to the main release?

I have actually already answered the first question right there - it matches your video mode's screen refresh rate to that of the actual game. It really makes a huge difference to how your emulated games play & feel, but it might be difficult for you to understand until you actually see it in action. As for the second question - Calamity pumps out Groovymame releases pretty regularly and with little delay, although obviously he has a real life too.

I can appreciate the desire to keep the OS the same because so many changes have been made since the initial install that replacing or updating other things may be less of a hassle.  But why use XP on new builds?  Win10 doesn't seem too heavy and still runs MAME fine with just 2-4gb of RAM which I imagine many older XP systems had during that era.  As a bonus, Win10 can be ran "free" / without registration while still getting security updates.

Not complicated, I used XP64 in those builds because I was using old video cards with old computers. It was appropriate and about compatibility. They do everything I need them to do. Security updates aren't important when the PC lives offline in an arcade cab, and why have the overheads of Win10 when they aren't needed? When I have newer video cards with newer computers, then I'll install Win7 or Win10 or whatever as appropriate.

[retrometro]

It really makes a huge difference to how your emulated games play & feel, but it might be difficult for you to understand until you actually see it in action.

Other than adjusting a game to the same refresh/resolution, how does groovymame make other differences in how a game play or feel?  Are there YT videos I can look at to show this difference?

[Zebidee]

I some ways that would largely defeat the purpose, as both your monitor and the video format will impose their own refresh rates, or frame rates (fps) over the top of whatever the game was played at originally. But yeah, do a search on YT I guess there must be plenty of vids about how to set it up.

[iscariot]

I've come into possession of an arcade cabinet kit with a large VGA CRT.  The computer that drive it was ancient so I replaced it with a Windows 10 machine.  The problem is that the monitor will display for a few seconds before cutting off, as Windows 10 won't save the resolution settings for it.  Is can I use this or something else to switch the resolution back to my settings that with with the monitor?  Iirc there's something that can do it.  Windows just doesn't seem to want to keep the settings I put in.

[retrometro]

What resolution are you trying to save too?  what kind of display are you using?

[iscariot]

Not sure.  It just has a vha connector and a jamma connector for video

[Zebidee]

This old thread isn't the place to sort out your issues, unless they specifically relate to Soft15khz - which is essentially "obsolete". You said you have a VGA monitor? If so you don't need 15khz anyway.

Suggest you make a new thread and provide more info like exactly what your monitor is, what adapters are being used, what GPU and desktop resolution you are using and what software (like video drivers and version of MAME etc). Also good to put up some pics.

[retrometro]

This old thread isn't the place to sort out your issues, unless they specifically relate to Soft15khz - which is essentially "obsolete".

I've realized that in 2022 that I love my soft15khz running on my Windows XP x64 core2duo PC as a retro thing as much as the games runs in an old version of MAME. 

[Zebidee]

I've realized that in 2022 that I love my soft15khz running on my Windows XP x64 core2duo PC as a retro thing as much as the games runs in an old version of MAME. 

I have a few arcade PCs with those exact same specs, but I use them with CRTEMU now (the older 1.2b version for XP) 

I always loved that soft15khz is so easy to setup, just a couple of clicks and then you essentially get the functionality of an ArcadeVGA card. However, CRTEMU and Groovymame take it to the next level with the super resolutions, automatic scaling and mode-switching, framerate matching stuff. Frame "tearing" and stretched pixels begone! Is easy to create your own custom modes too. A bit more complicated to setup, but worth it.

CRTEMU builds upon the work of others before it, including projects like advancemame and soft15khz. Awesome stuff.