New Product: Opti-Wiz

[ptpeter]

anyone have any idea when this is coming out?

[millercentral]

Hey Randy, if you do make a GGG spinner, any chance you'd match its size/mounting holes to the Oscar V2 spinner (says the guy who had metal panels pre-drilled for V2 spinners just as OSCAR closed up shop...)??

[KenToad]

Wow RandyT, what a New Year's gift.  I'm really excited about this one, even though the discussion is making me feel a bit dumb. 

I've never hacked a mouse per se, although I did make my own spinner interface by printing out an encoder wheel on a transparency and letting that spin through a cheapo mouse's analog detectors (whatever they're called). 

Here's the question:  What do I need to make this board work with two (or three?) homebuilt spinners?  Is that what those blank boxes on the board are for--attaching the actual analog detectors?  Obviously, more than one spinner would require several sets of the detectors with at least one mounted away from the Opti-Wiz.

Sorry if this question has already been answered and thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Wow RandyT, what a New Year's gift.

[RandyT]

Here's the question:  What do I need to make this board work with two (or three?) homebuilt spinners?  Is that what those blank boxes on the board are for--attaching the actual analog detectors?

Yes.  You can add optical switches to the board and attach the board to your spinner directly (the optical switches face the opposite side).  When doing this, the axis assigned to the onboard optical switches is selected by bridging the appropriate X, Y, or Z pads with a small drop of solder.

You can have a trackball and a spinner connected to the device, or up to 3 spinners.  You just need 4 wires, 2 optical switches and a current limiting resistor for each spinner you want to build and attach.  And as Tiger-Heli wrote, use a version of the software that supports the use of the Z-Axis (.84 and up ?)

While we're on the subject and hopefully as a basis for discussion with folks in the know ( Urebel? )...

Due to a Windows / MAME oddity, the Z-Axis requires a spinner device with a fine encoder wheel spoke pitch, probably at least 72 per revolution.  MAME does not properly implement the Z-axis from what I can surmise.  It does work well, but the sensitivity command is out of scale.  This means that for best results the sensitivity must be set at 1 to 2% when using the Z-axis.

There are a bunch of technical reasons for this, but the Opti-Wiz is not the problem.  Windows uses a WHEEL_DELTA system for reporting wheel events.  Instead of reporting a single "tick" when a mouse wheel (Z-Axis) event occurs, it reports 120 "ticks" (the arbitrarily set value by Microsoft for future expandability), whereas the X and Y axes report only 1.  If I'm not completely off base, MAME should be checking to see what the WHEEL_DELTA value is when using the Z-Axis and divide the values being sent by this value and then perform the sensitivity adjustments on the integer result.  It does not appear to be doing this. 

Hopefully someone can insert this code and submit it to the dev team to get the Z-Axis supported properly.  But the Z is still absolutely usable as a spinner (plus it's cool to use the spinner as a scroll wheel for those long list boxes )  It just has limited sensitivity adjustment in that you cannot currently make it less sensitive than the physical spoke pitch of your encoder wheel.

Oh, and to answer another question, these will be available for purchase just as soon as I get a doc sheet written up.  Kremmit and Markrvp did a great job getting info to me and things look to be working extremely well on all the mainstream hardware.

RandyT

[KenToad]

Yes. You can add optical switches to the board and attach the board to your spinner directly (the optical switches face the opposite side). When doing this, the axis assigned to the onboard optical switches is selected by bridging the appropriate X, Y, or Z pads with a small drop of solder.

You can have a trackball and a spinner connected to the device, or up to 3 spinners. You just need 4 wires, 2 optical switches and a current limiting resistor for each spinner you want to build and attach. And as Tiger-Heli wrote, use a version of the software that supports the use of the Z-Axis (.84 and up ?)

Okay, so the doodads that gauge the movement of the encoder are called optical switches?  Where would would be the best place to purchase optical switches?  Would it be best just to rip (desolder) them out of existing cheapo mice?

Or maybe, RandyT, you should just tease me with your forthcoming spinner.  If the price is right, I'm onboard for the whole package. 

Cheers and thanks,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, so the doodads that gauge the movement of the encoder are called optical switches?

[u_rebelscum]

While we're on the subject and hopefully as a basis for discussion with folks in the know ( Urebel? )...

Due to a Windows / MAME oddity... MAME does not properly implement the Z-axis from what I can surmise.  It does work well, but the sensitivity command is out of scale.  This means that for best results the sensitivity must be set at 1 to 2% when using the Z-axis.

There are a bunch of technical reasons for this, but the Opti-Wiz is not the problem.  Windows uses a WHEEL_DELTA system for reporting wheel events.  Instead of reporting a single "tick" when a mouse wheel (Z-Axis) event occurs, it reports 120 "ticks" (the arbitrarily set value by Microsoft for future expandability), whereas the X and Y axes report only 1.  If I'm not completely off base, MAME should be checking to see what the WHEEL_DELTA value is when using the Z-Axis and divide the values being sent by this value and then perform the sensitivity adjustments on the integer result.  It does not appear to be doing this. 

Hopefully someone can insert this code and submit it to the dev team to get the Z-Axis supported properly.

Heh, I was going to post a question on this Z axis "resolution" issue yesterday, but never found the info to backup my "facts" before I timed out and lost my post.    Good thing though, since I was wrong by a factor of ten (more on this later) and Randy addressed it without me looking like I was against the Opti-wiz.

IMO, the "best" fix would be a special "fine Z-axis" mouse driver.  Most drivers multiple the scroll number by 120; IE: one detent tick on the scroll wheel is sent as a single tick over USB which the driver multiples by 120 to work with windows WHEEL_DELTA like Randy said. 
However the future is already here; there are a few drivers that don't multiple by 120.  MS IntelliPoint  for the tilt wheels look to multiple by 30 (don't own one, but I know I like a no detents feel*).  One of my two scroll ball mice can set the multiplier to 10, 20, or 30 in it's installed driver; can't remember OTTOMH which one: targus's dual mode mouse, or that compaq scroll ball mouse sometimes on sale for $4.  (This 10-30 multiplier was what I yesterday thought was the standard multiplier instead of the correct 120.)

The only difference between the normal mouse driver and the special fine Z axis driver would be that the driver doesn't multiple by 120; it would be really cool to have it variable from 1 to 120.  But I don't know how to write drivers, soo....

[edit] I don't know USB's info descriptor (<-- is that the right name?), but can you set the Z axis wheel_delta on this?  I doubt it, but thought I'd toss it out there.


Until then, mame could divide the Z axis by 120 (or 30 for IntelliPoint  mice, or whatever).
Minuses:

• the possibility of backspin might raise it's ugly head (data is being pasted 7 bits (120, or 111 1000) bigger then it needs to be),
• IntelliPoint  mice (and other future mice) would have "finer resolution" than Opti-wiz (not physically, but software wise).

Pluses

• Any mouse could be hacked,
• no driver changes needed,
• might be more compatible with windows scrolling (see below)

[shrug]

  But the Z is still absolutely usable as a spinner (plus it's cool to use the spinner as a scroll wheel for those long list boxes )

How well does it scroll in windows?  If it's well scaled, that's one reason the changes should be in mame, not the in the driver (noted as the last plus in why to change mame).


*Aside, I don't like the hard detents on most mice now a days.  I had a "4d scroll mouse" a looong time ago with two smooth scroll wheels, but it's not made any more.   And the only reason I sometimes use the two scroll ball mice I have is for the no detent feel; they aren't the highest quality mice.  (I originally bought the scroll balls for mame testing.)  Hopefully MS gets copied and more manufactures make smooth scrolls.  Looks like MS is also adding the horizontal scroll to the OS Vista, 7 years after I got the 4d scroll mouse with horizontal scroll.

[markrvp]

How well does it scroll in windows?  If it's well scaled, that's one reason the changes should be in mame, not the in the driver (noted as the last plus in why to change mame).

It works great.

[Kremmit]

I'll agree with everything above.  The spinner scrolls great in Firefox and Word, and plays great in Tempest- you just have to set the analog sensetivity way down compared to the x & y axis.  I'm in favor of a driver and/or MAME level fix, at least until Microsoft fixes it at their end.  Maybe it'll be in the next version of Analog+ 

Before somebody asks, using the Windows "# of lines" setting for the scroll wheel only adjusts in Windows apps, it has zero effect on gameplay in MAME. 

[u_rebelscum]

I'll agree with everything above.  The spinner scrolls great in Firefox and Word, and plays great in Tempest- you just have to set the analog sensetivity way down compared to the x & y axis.  I'm in favor of a driver and/or MAME level fix, at least until Microsoft fixes it at their end.  Maybe it'll be in the next version of Analog+ 

How about I post the change here?   It's a one liner if we keep it simple:

Code: [Select]

// return the latest mouse info
if (joyindex == 0)
return mouse_state[joynum].lX * 512;
if (joyindex == 1)
return mouse_state[joynum].lY * 512;
if (joyindex == 2)
return mouse_state[joynum].lZ * 4; // windows default Z to be 120 times bigger than X & Y; 512 / 120 = 4.26667
We're just changing 512 on the last line to 4, on line 1830 in src/windows/input.c file.  With this change, mame's sensitivity would need to be set a little higher than if the X or Y axes were used.  I suggest you beta testers try if this value of 4 works well (it could also be changed to 5, 4.2 (good to cast the solution to int32 JIC), 4.3, ect).

Before somebody asks, using the Windows "# of lines" setting for the scroll wheel only adjusts in Windows apps, it has zero effect on gameplay in MAME. 

Good to know, and what it should be according to MS's documentation.   However, some drivers changes to the mouse speed does effect mame, which according to MS's docs shouldn't happen.  Makes me wonder about the scroll ball settings I mentioned in my last post.

[Kremmit]

Oh, crap.  You done gone and lobbed that ball right back into my court, dint'cha? 

I've never compiled before.  I'm good with controllers, wiring & encoders, but I'm MAME32 when it comes to software. 

Any software geeks want to do some compiling?

[markrvp]

Oh, crap.

[markrvp]

Okay, I am attempting to compile a version of MAME with that change.  I'll let you know if it worked tonight.

[markrvp]

Thank you to JoyMonkey, SirPoonga, and Headkaze for helping me compile a custom version of MAME .103 with u_rebelscum's Z axis change.  JoyMonkey compiled a version for me and I was also able to successfully compile my own (FINALLY).

I can report that the Z axis now works great at high sensitivity settings with NO BACKSPIN in MAME.  For Supersprint a setting of about 70% to 80% works great on the Z axis.  On Tempest, with an Oscar Controls Push/Pull spinner it needed a sensitivity of 120% to really fly.  I like to spin the knob between levels and watch the little yellow guy go flying around the next pattern.

I give the Optiwiz my full endorsement and highly recommend it to anyone who wants to buy one.

Would somebody close to the MAME team please suggest the Z axis change for future versions?

[Kremmit]

Super dope.  I just got the fixed version, but can't test as my MAME computer is down.  I'm online with an old pentium right now.   

Does the sensetivity now match the other axes, or do you find you need slightly different settings still?  It'd be nice if all three match exactly, for the 3p driving games.

[markrvp]

The sensitivity of the Z axis needs to be slightly higher.  Probably by adjusting the value in the MAME source you could get them all exact.

[u_rebelscum]

The sensitivity of the Z axis needs to be slightly higher.  Probably by adjusting the value in the MAME source you could get them all exact.

We're just changing 512 on the last line to 4, on line 1830 in src/windows/input.c file.  With this change, mame's sensitivity would need to be set a little higher than if the X or Y axes were used.  I suggest you beta testers try if this value of 4 works well (it could also be changed to 5, 4.2 (good to cast the solution to int32 JIC), 4.3, ect).

512 / 120 = 4.267, so if you type cast the result back to integer, you could use 4.26666666666666666667 for "perfect swapability" X, Y, & Z axes.  However:

I tried playing with my normal scroll wheels (camel try works okay), and it did NOT like the smaller setting.  The original value 512 down to 256 were reasonable, but four was showing probably the opposite problem mark and kermmit were having with real spinners.

Sooooo, I think there should be a setting somewhere (for each mouse, preferably ) to change between "scroll wheel" & "real spinner", or to set the multipler anywhere between 512 down to 4.  The last one might become a replacement of mame's current sentivitiy.  Or the current setting could increase the range from current 1-256(%) to 0.1-1600(%), or change the 512 mulitpler, for examples. 

Personally I'd prefer a per PC device sensitivity setting for all mice, all mouse axes, all joysticks, and all joystick axes, not a per game input settings as current mame, but that would involve some real changes.

[JoyMonkey]

Any idea when I can buy one of these?

I've a feeling the mouse-hack I just found under a pile of cables/junk isn't going to be so reliable any more 

Edit: Never mind, I just noticed the 'Date Expected 1/26/2006' on GroovyGameGear. So I guess I'll have to wait a few hours 

[RandyT]

The Opti-Wiz

[romperwomb]

Yes!

Ok, SirP, you got your wish. 

I just wired up the molex 6-pin female to 10-pin female header wire harness.  Plugged it in and pure TB satisfaction (after I completely rebuilt the WICO trackball some dirtbag misrepresented on Ebay....Grrrrrrr).

So we will be offering cables as well.  They are time consuming to make, had to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to gear up,  yadda, yadda, $12.95 .

BTW, if anyone was ever wondering if the trackball boosters work on a WICO, they do

RandyT

Whuddaboutdeez?  When will these cables become available?

Thanks

[whammoed]

The Opti-Wiz

[RandyT]

Sweet, I went ahead and placed an order for one to play with but I didn't see a place to specify the USB device number.  Will this option be available?  My next project has two trackballs and I don't want their order flipping.

Device numbers 1-4 can now be selected at the store.

When will these cables become available?

Later today.

Thanks,
RandyT

[whammoed]

Sweet, I went ahead and placed an order for one to play with but I didn't see a place to specify the USB device number.  Will this option be available?  My next project has two trackballs and I don't want their order flipping.

Device numbers 1-4 can now be selected at the store.

When will these cables become available?

Later today.

Thanks,
RandyT

Nice!

[RandyT]

Took a little longer than expected, but the Opti-Wiz

[whammoed]

I recieved my opti-wiz.  Looks very nice, high quality.  Came very well packaged.

Thanks RandyT! 

Made up a little test rig today and thought I'd share:
Not a must have for me, but at the low opti-wiz price I can afford it. 
I will definitely be using these on my next project.  Perfect implementation of a mouse interface.

[wakerlet]

Randy:  Got both Opti-Wiz's this week.  They do look quite slick.

So in terms of the molex connector what color wires are Xa/Xb and Ya/Yb for the colors defined on the first page of this post?  I've got Purple, Blue, Green and Yellow to choose from.

Thanks,
Todd

[Kremmit]

I recieved my opti-wiz.  Looks very nice, high quality.  Came very well packaged.

Thanks RandyT! 

Made up a little test rig today and thought I'd share:
Not a must have for me, but at the low opti-wiz price I can afford it. 
I will definitely be using these on my next project.  Perfect implementation of a mouse interface.

Wow, that looks exactly like the setup I was using!  Big long board, Opti-Wiz at one end, and screw terminals.  My screw terminals were black, though. 

[sWampy]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

[Kremmit]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

Those upgraded encoder wheels are probably making most of the difference on your trackball.  It sure would be interesting to move your spinner from the MiniPac to the OptiWiz and see if/how performance differs between them.  You would want to hook it to the same axis on both to make it a fair test.

As for using the Z-axis, I don't know that that would improve backspin issues over using the X or Y axis.  The difference between the axes is build into the way Windows handles the data, not the OptiWiz.  The main reason to use the Z-axis is to separate the spinner from the trackball, not to improve performance.

[sWampy]

I got one of these this week cause my mini-pac had horrible back spin problems with my betson trackball.   With this, and the upgraded encoder wheels it's seems to the be best trackball setup i've ever seen for mame.   

My oscar spinner has a small backspin problem with the mini-pac.  I guess hooking it up to the z-axis would solve this, but I'm just a little worried about the z-axis spinner support in other applications.   Anyone have an opinion on if the benefits of hooking it up to the opti-wiz would outweigh the negatives.

Those upgraded encoder wheels are probably making most of the difference on your trackball.  It sure would be interesting to move your spinner from the MiniPac to the OptiWiz and see if/how performance differs between them.  You would want to hook it to the same axis on both to make it a fair test.

As for using the Z-axis, I don't know that that would improve backspin issues over using the X or Y axis.  The difference between the axes is build into the way Windows handles the data, not the OptiWiz.  The main reason to use the Z-axis is to separate the spinner from the trackball, not to improve performance.

With just the new encoders, the backspin  was just as bad as the stock encoders, so I really think the new interface made made a huge difference there. 

I really just can't deside if having no backspin on the spinner would be worth the hastle of having to reconfigure all spinner games to use the z-axis and it's scale, and not being able to use the spinner in non-mame games.   I guess I could put a switch to switch between the 2 interfaces.   I'd move it in a heart beat if there was an easy way in software to move it between x and z on the fly.  Then I could just have my frontend move it to x axis when launching a non mame emulator.

[markrvp]

Until this is a standard feature in MAME, I would just use two OptiWiz's.  I know that's $15 more dollars, but it would sure save a lot of configuring.