Starting the cabinet all at once. It works! And here's how...

[krick]

I'm kind of interested in the outcome of this thread myself.

I'd like to be able to flip the factory toggle switch on my cabinet and have the following happen...

1) power is applied to the monitor, marquee, and computer
2) a <insert magic device here> senses the mains power and triggers the power on switch on the PC

when I flip the toggle switch to off, I'd like this to happen...

1) a <insert magic device here> shuts windows down, turning off the computer
2) a <insert magic device here> senses the computer going off and turns off the mains power to the monitor, marquee, and computer

Obviously, the shutdown part is MUCH harder if not impossible.

My reason for wanting this is that I'd like it to be as much like a normal arcade machine as possible.  i.e. on/off with a single toggle switch.


Has anybody tried using the sleep/hibernation features of Windows in a cab with one of those automatic power stips?  If putting the computer to sleep triggers the power stip, then you might be able to set it up so just walking up to the machine and tapping any button will wake it up and power up the marquee and monitor.  Then you might be able to assign the keyboard "sleep" button to a shift function on the I-PAC to put it to sleep when you are done playing.


All this talk also makes me wonder how modern arcade games that use computers with hard drives (or CD-ROM drives) handle this?  I imagine that you can't just kill power to the system whenever you like because it might be writing to the hard drive at any time.  There must be some sort of shutdown procedure that happens.

[rampy]

I'm kind of interested in the outcome of this thread myself.

I'd like to be able to flip the factory toggle switch on my cabinet and have the following happen...

on/off with a single toggle switch.

Does it *have* to be a toggle switch?  I have a momentary pushbutton in the same spot as the original switch on my cabinet.  I push it once it powers up the PC and the sears power strip turns on the marquee light, audio amp, and monitor...

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

I'm sure if you *had* to have a toggle switch you can find one that does momentary on when switched somewhere...

I think IMHO people are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

I solved my one button to rule them all issue with 20 dollars and a trip to sears. YMMV.

rampy

[whammoed]

Was there any reason this wouldn't work:

http://www.nteinc.com/relay_web/R30.html

I believe this is what Ken was talking about.
Maybe I just missed something again?

[SirPeale]

Peale, may I inquire as to why you are so steadfast in not wanting to deviate from the example arcade power wiring diagram (the bob roberts one) but are willing to wire up all sorts of capacitors/relays elsewhere.

Well, it's twofold.  

First, if I can get this to work, it'll take me about five minutes to wire up a real JAMMA board, and I can use the PC power supply (IF I decided to.  The whole cabinet is JAMMA ready, with this exception)

Second, this has been a thing that a lot of people have attempted to figure out.  A lot of people use the Bits Limited strip, which is okay for them.  But a simple thing to power on the computer?  Seriously, it just *can't* be that difficult!

Has anyone tried the capacitor shorting out the power pins idea yet?

[danny_galaga]

Peale,
honestly, im telling you it ISNT that difficult!! my relay set-up works perfectly, and is much simpler than any other suggestions ive read. No capacitors, no freaky timed relays. Just a garden-variety relay. I switch mine at the wall but it is exactly the same if you switch it from the toggle on the cab if it switches ALL power devices.
Attached is the pic posted earlier. Below it is the diagram for MY cab. Which would you rather? If you put a plug on the the coil end and plug it into a $5 powerboard with all the other accessories, then it's ALL switched with one switch. Mine is all hard-wired for neatness but is exactly the same principle. Mine switches at the wall, yours by the toggle in your cab. Still has to be shut down like a normal computer but from what I can tell, none of the other solutions addresses that either. (I hit 'fire' and 'player two' to activate a macro on mine. Shuts down in maybe two seconds).
Dan.
P.S NC is normally closed, not north carolina. hehe. dont be wiring the motherboard to them!

[krick]

on/off with a single toggle switch.

Does it *have* to be a toggle switch?  I have a momentary pushbutton in the same spot as the original switch on my cabinet.  I push it once it powers up the PC and the sears power strip turns on the marquee light, audio amp, and monitor...

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

You're not shutting down windows by holding down the power button for a few seconds.  By holding the button down (usually for 4 seconds) you're just killing power to the motherboard.   You've been fortunate that windows hasn't been trashed.  You must be running Win2K or WinXP.  They're both a little more resiliant to this sort of thing.  Windows 98 will usually scream bloody murder if you do that.

But regardless, I was just stating what my _ideal_ situation would be.  Obviously it would take a lot more effort, time, and money than I'm willing to commit to make it happen.  I'm probably going to end up using a bit-strip power strip or one of the functionally identical home-made solutions that uses a relay.

[SirPeale]

The good news is I'm not running Windows.  Sounds drivers willing, I never will.

[krick]

Anybody know a source for a NC relay like the one that danny_galaga used except compatible with US household voltage?

I'm thinking about giving his method a try.

[Ken Layton]

Try Radio Shaft # 275-217 (around $8.00) relay. It has both normally closed and normally open contacts.

[danny_galaga]

sorry, forgot to mention that many relays have both normally closed AND normally open contacts. just get the cheapest one that has both from an electronics store (radio shack in the us?). and where ever you buy it from, the most common available will be the local mains voltage so in the us it should be 110v.
 as  i mentioned earlier, this works because a relay isnt as fast as youd think so when you turn the power on the contacts are still closed for a millisecond or so. enough to activate the soft-on

[krick]

Try Radio Shaft # 275-217 (around $8.00) relay. It has both normally closed and normally open contacts.

Would #275-241 ($4.29) work?
Link

From the picture on the site the markings on the side say...   1A  120VAC/24VDC

[Ken Layton]

The 275-241 you mentioned has a 12 volt DC coil whereas the the one I mentioned (275-217) has a 120 volt AC coil.

[danny_galaga]

The 275-241 you mentioned has a 12 volt DC coil whereas the the one I mentioned (275-217) has a 120 volt AC coil.

yes, it looks like that is a 12v coil. the 120vac/24vdc shows what kind of current the CONTACTS can handle. For our purposes that is irrelevant since it probably only has to handle microamps. The 275-217 that ken suggests is suitable. Don't be scared off by all those terminals. You are only using four in total. Most relays have circuit diagrams printed on them and many have translucent cases so you can just literally follow where the terminals go. on the 275-217 it looks like the two terminals that are on their own will be the 120v coil and the others i cant quite make out. when you have it in hand it will be obvious which of the other two to use. this relay is a double pole/ double throw so you will have a choice of either of two pairs. all the others are irrelevant.

[rampy]

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

You're not shutting down windows by holding down the power button for a few seconds.  By holding the button down (usually for 4 seconds) you're just killing power to the motherboard.   You've been fortunate that windows hasn't been trashed.  You must be running Win2K or WinXP.  They're both a little more resiliant to this sort of thing.  Windows 98 will usually scream bloody murder if you do that.

But regardless, I was just stating what my _ideal_ situation would be.  Obviously it would take a lot more effort, time, and money than I'm willing to commit to make it happen.  I'm probably going to end up using a bit-strip power strip or one of the functionally identical home-made solutions that uses a relay.

Krik, you must not be familiar with advance power management...  when I hold down the power button for a few seconds, it is NOT a "COLD" power off.  It tells windows to force shutdown programs and power down.  I watch it close programs and power down *shrug*.  It's like  a shortcut to "start menu -> shutdown -->shutdown"

I'm well aware of the potential dangers of abruptly shuttind down a windoze machine uncleanly.  Using Advance Power Management is not one of them =)

rampy

[krick]

Hmm.  this feature might only be available in Windows XP....

http://aumha.org/win5/a/shutcut.php

"Customize Your Computer

[krick]

First off, my apologies to Peale as I seem to have taken over his thread.  However, I hope that my additions to this thread will benefit us all, regardless of our exact cab configuration.


Well, I messed with my MAME cab earlier tonight.  I'm running Windows 2000 and it DOES shut down properly when I hit the power button.  I'll be damned if I don't learn something every day.


So here's a summary of the 4 options I have for starting and stopping my MAME cab...


1) factory cabinet toggle switch supplies power to monitor, marquee, and computer.
Additional push-button switch mounted in cabinet starts/stops computer.

2) PC is wired into primary cabinet power feed.  NC relay wired to PC on/off switch and triggered by primary cabinet power.  Switching on cabinet via factory toggle triggers relay to open but this happens slightly after power is supplied to the PC so this turns the PC on.  PC must be shut down via software method, probably  via button shift combination.  Once PC is shut down, cab can be turned off via factory toggle switch.

3) factory cabinet toggle is replaced with push-button wired to PC on/off.  cab power supplied through a Bits Limited SmartStrip.  Computer is plugged into always-on "trigger" outlet.  Cabinet (monitor & marquee) is plugged into switched outlet.  Starting computer with push-button triggers SmartStrip to supply power to other outlets.  Shutting down computer with push button triggers SmartStrip to cut power to other outlets.

4) same as #3 above but using a home made relay setup instead of a Bits Limited SmartStrip.

[SirPeale]

How would this do?

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=500&item=RLY-427&type=store

Or even this?

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=500&item=RLY-2120&type=store

[krick]

Here's an informative link I found about relays...
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/relay.htm


Here's the specs on the two relays in the previous post...


120 VAC DPDT 10 AMP RELAY
Kest # KRLY-2120.
120 Vac, 5000 ohm coil.
D.P.D.T.
10 Amp contacts.
KH "Ice cube" style,clear polycarbonate case.
1.1" x 0.83" x 1.37" high.
Solder or 0.187" qc or solder terminals.
CAT# RLY-2120
Your Price: $2.75 each
 

120 VAC DPDT 35 AMP RELAY
Deltrol Controls # 275P202C120A.
120 Vac, 1500 Ohm coil.
D.P.D.T.
power relay with contacts rated 35 Amps @ 277 Vac.
Clear polycarbonate cover.
1.5" x 1.35" x 2" high.
Can be used with quick-connect terminals (0.25" for contacts, 0.187" for coil), pc mounted.
CAT# RLY-427
Your Price: $4.00 each


The thing that I find confusing about the descriptions of relays is that there should be two sets of ratings.  One for the circuit triggering the switch, another for the circuit being switched.  They make relays that can use a small DC voltage to trigger the switching of a 120V AC circuit.    When they say "120 VAC 35 AMP", how do you know if the ratings are for the triggering circuit or for the triggered circuit?

In my experience with household current, a "20 AMP" circuit in a house was capable of supporting devices consuming up to 20 AMPs at one time without tripping the breaker.  They used heavier 12 gauge wire instead of the 14 gauge wire used in "normal" 15 AMP circuits.   Since a relay isn't really a part that is supporting a load, what does the 35 AMP rating refer to?

As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two relays above is one is 10 AMP with a 5000 ohm coil and the other is 35 AMP with a 1500 Ohm coil.  Why should I choose one over the other?

[danny_galaga]

As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two relays above is one is 10 AMP with a 5000 ohm coil and the other is 35 AMP with a 1500 Ohm coil.  Why should I choose one over the other?

the amperage quoted on a relay is normally the the load the contacts can handle.
normally the coil current isnt as critical. but you have all the info there. ohms law tells us (if put into a pascals triangle):

                                                  V
                                            -----------
                                              I   X   R


that is- voltage equals current times resistance. so the 5000 ohm coil draws 24mA (120v divided by 5000 ohms) and the 1500 ohm coil draws 80. might as well go for the 24ma one. also its a rather unusual situation in that the current the relay is switching is less than the switching current itself!! doesnt matter though. if youre curious about wattage then use this formula:

W= V X I  (I stands for amperage. never knew why. it might have stood for intensity or some other such term). so the first relay uses 2.88 W and the second uses 9.6 W

[Hamselv]

I was wondering, as I read this thread, if you guys have heard of a powerstrip, which is controlled by a USB wire from the PC? This is a fairly new thing here in Denmark, so I don't know if you already have something similar.

Basically, it is a powerstrip w. 4-5 plugs, which is only powered on when it gets a small voltage through an attached USB cable.  So in effect, the PC has to be turned on and the PC's USB plug has to be activated before any of the devices connected to the powerstrip will be turned on.

Here is a link to a Danish site about the thing. http://www.elspareskinnen.dk/ You won't understand a word of it, but the pictures should give you an idea what I am rambling about. These things are awesome for saving power for all the PC peripherals (printers, speaker sets, monitors etc.). You only need power for the printer when the PC is on, right?

Anyway, in a cabinet, now all you will need to do is turn the PC on and off, and then monitor, marquee lights etc. will light up after the PC has booted.

[krick]

I was wondering, as I read this thread, if you guys have heard of a powerstrip, which is controlled by a USB wire from the PC? This is a fairly new thing here in Denmark, so I don't know if you already have something similar.

This performs essentially the same function as the Bits Limited SmartStrip: http://www.smartstrip.net/

The difference is that the SmartStrip senses the current draw on the "trigger" outlet to turn the other outlets on and off.

The USB link method looks like it would probably be cheaper to implement than the load sensing circuitry in the SmartStrip.  There's no data activity on the USB cable.  They're just using the 5v supplied by the USB cable to trigger a relay that switches on the other outlets.

Of course, this device will only work with a computer and it must have a USB port.

[SirPeale]

Well, I'm off to Radio Shaft now.  I'll test it when I get back, and post with the results.

[SirPeale]

Well, I just tried the relay that Ken mentioned in this post.  It didn't work.  It triggers so fast that it doesn't have time to power up correctly.

I'll have to get a timed delay relay.

I'll play with it a little more first.

[danny_galaga]

damn. it works perfectly on mine. i started to draw a diagram of how to introduce a capacitor into the circuit but realised its not quite as simple as i thought. i will have a bit of a think at work today. there will be an elegant solution though. leave it with me. if you do use a capacitor make sure its rated for for at least 110V. and use this formula to calculate time:

time (in seconds) = C X R. time equals capacitance times resistance. easy! write it as a decimal. for instance 1 microfarad times 5000 ohms is 0.000001 x 5000= 0.005 seconds. the example assumes the coil as the resistance but im not sure thats how it will go. as you can see it is probably faster than the relay anyway! like i say let me have a think...

[SirPeale]

It might be the motherboard.  I'll try a couple more and see what the result is.

[danny_galaga]

It might be the motherboard.  I'll try a couple more and see what the result is.

could be. Also, when I started drawing a circuit with a capacitor it became obvious it wouldn

[wj2k3]

How about a double pole toggle switch such as:

OFF-ON-(ON)
OFF-OFF-(ON)

The top pole can activate a relay that powers up the power supply to everything.
The bottom pole can be your momentary on switch for your computer.

NKKswitches.com makes a SP3T-A27 switch that can do this.
Its a A-series 'washable subminiature' toggle switch.

-wj2k3

[krick]

Ugh.  I like a challenge as much as the next guy but I'm starting to think that I might just bite the bullet and...

1) get a SmartStrip
2) replace the toggle switch on my cab with a N.O. pushbutton.

- press the button, it turns on the computer and triggers the rest of the cab to power on

- press the button again, windows shuts down, the computer shuts off and triggers the rest of the cab to power off.

Now if I could only find a really cool looking industrial metal button that will easily swap with my factory cab toggle switch.

[danny_galaga]

How about a double pole toggle switch such as:

OFF-ON-(ON)
OFF-OFF-(ON)

The top pole can activate a relay that powers up the power supply to everything.
The bottom pole can be your momentary on switch for your computer.

this will work. for me im just glad that the relay alone does the trick on my cab because i dont like toggles! i used to be an auto-electrician and i have too many bad memories of wrecking otherwise nice looking dashboards by being asked to install toggles in them! (shudder)
as it is i have a minuture on-on toggle hidden away for the rotating monitor but if i could make the operating system do that id get rid of it...

[danny_galaga]

peale,
did you do anything more with this?

[SirPeale]

I haven't had the time.  I'll try to do something with it this afternoon.

[SirPeale]

Finally tried the capacitor trick my EE friend recommended.  AFAIK this capacitor is of the specs he recommended (the rating has worn off, unfortunately)

It did indeed power the system up - for four seconds.  Since the connection was still intact, it powered it down again.

So I powered it off and powered it on again.  Nothing!  Until I reversed the polarity on the cap, that is.  Did the same thing - booted for four seconds, then shut down.

Rinse, repeat, recycle.  I'll email him again and ask his thoughts.

[SirPeale]

Okay, here's his response:

First things first, don't ever hook up an electrolytic cap backwards!!!!  
Ever!!!!

K, now on to things that won't cause cancer.

The cap you used was too big, as it shut the computer back off again.  
That means that it was still a "short" after the requisite amount of time.  
Try a smaller value (this usually means smaller size too).  Maybe 22uF or
10uF or even smaller.  Make sure that you know the voltage rating before
you try it though (it will say 10V 16V, 35V etc)

Also, with this method, you have to leave the power off for about a minute
for the cap to discharge before you can turn it back on again.  Nature of
the beast, I am afraid.  

[SirPeale]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Pulled a 50v 10uf cap out of an old power supply and stuck it into a motherboard accessory connector.  Boots right up!  This is flippin' awesome!  We now have an answer to the ATX power supply problem that has plagued millions for centuries!!!!!!!


Edit: here you go.

[krick]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Great.  Can you summarize your exact cabinet setup so we can all duplicate it?  Maybe a pretty diagram might be in order.

Any relays used?
How is the computer wired into the cabinet?
Are there "power strips" involved?
etc...

Tell us all, oh great one.

[SirPeale]

I'm trying to add a picture, but my USB does not appear to be working.  I'm trying to install Service Pack One now, which might clear that up.

But pretty much, that do-dad I spoke of in my last post?  Slip it on the motherboard power on button connector.  

The wiring diagram is actually already in this thread.  On the first page, I believe.

[Witchboard]

Cool.  Glad you figured it out.  I'll have to give it a try when I reach that part of my project.  Don't forget to add this thread to the "links of interest" sticky.  

[SirPeale]

Cool.  Glad you figured it out.  I'll have to give it a try when I reach that part of my project.  Don't forget to add this thread to the "links of interest" sticky.  

Way ahead of you.  Already did it as soon as I figured it out.

You can try it now; it should work on any ATX motherboard.

[SirPeale]

One last thing.  This setup won't do anything about shutting the cabinet, or Window, down.  It just brings the machine up on powerup.

[danny_galaga]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Pulled a 50v 10uf cap out of an old power supply and stuck it into a motherboard accessory connector.  Boots right up!  This is flippin' awesome!  We now have an answer to the ATX power supply problem that has plagued millions for centuries!!!!!!!

and even more simply than my relay! Good one. My next cab I