TV CRT to Arcade Chassis - Issues & Where To Start

[soup]

Hi all,

I have, going on 15yrs old, a UAII Cab with a WinXP machine running MAME/Mamewah connected to a 27" TV via S-Video that hasnt skipped a beat until a few weeks back where the TV Chassis died. As this was the last spare chassis I had I thought I would purchase a new Arcade Chassis in the hope of upgrading to a better display. I bought a new WEI-YA chassis (829HRA), a J-Pac (second hand) and installed soft15Khz yet I'm unable to get anything close to resembling a picture. If anyone could assist in where I should start it would be much appreciated, the system has been working perfectly up to the TV chassis failure so I'm hoping its just a video configuraiton issue with my pc to the arcade chassis. I've detailed below how its hung together along with findings to date. I appreciate the setup is very old and this an opportunity to rebuild however I just dont have any time/funds left to really do - but I really, really, really dont want to switch to an led screen! Happy to post any further pics/info if it can help.

Setup
1. PC WindowsXP running MAME/Mamewah: Installed Soft15khz, during setup it recognised my Video Card (ATI Radeon HD 3450) and I selected 15khz option.
2. PC Connections:
    - Video Card: Connected the video cards DMS-59 output to DVI splitter to DVI-to-VGA adapter to the J-PAC VGA port.
    - Keyboard PS2 Port: PS2 cable connected to J-PC Left hand PS2 Port (was previously connected to I-Pac).
3. J-PAC:
    - Jumpers fitted to both 15khz and 31khz.
    - Video Input connections as per Point 2 above.
    - No controls (terminals) connected.
    - Soldered wires onto J-Pac Jamma edge fingers as follows (didn't have a Jamma board connector):
        - J-Pac Jamma (Component side) Pin 12 ('Video Red')  TO chassis 5 pin connector Red wire ('R').
    - J-Pac Jamma (Component side) Pin 13 ('Video Blue') TO chassis 5 pin connector Blue wire ('B').
    - J-Pac Jamma (Component side) Pin 14 ('Video Ground (-)') TO chassis 5 pin connector Black wire ('E').
    - J-Pac Jamma (Solder side) Pin 12 ('Video Green') TO chassis 5 pin connector Green wire ('G').
    - J-Pac Jamma (Solder side) Pin 13 ('Video Synch') TO chassis 5 pin connector White wire ('S').
4. Arcade Chassis
    - Chassis Power plugged into new 250W Isolated Step Down Transformer (I'm in Aus so needed to convert 220v to 110v)
    - Chassis Neck connector attached to neck with TV shield (single female pin) connected
    - Existing Tube Scancoils grey connector plugged into chassis
    - Chassis Video lead connected to J-Pac (via a terminal block) as detailed above
    - TV Degaussing loop connection not connected (have yet to look for the Chassis connection)

Results
1. With just the Tube powered by the transformer (no PC powered) I get a grey/white screen with black horizontal lines

2. With Tube powered and power supplied to PC (but not started):
    - Tube displays same grey screen but has green block at bottom 1/15th screen
    - J-Pac has LED's 'Self Test' = Green, 'Synch In' = Orange.
3. With Tube powered and PC turned on (booted)
    - Tube displays green background with red and orange and purple almost horizontal lines
    -  J-Pac has LED's 'Self Test' = Green, 'Synch In' = Orange, 'Synch OK' = Green

Of note:
1. As the video card uses a DMS-59 connection (enables connection of two DVI cables outputting to two monitors using the correct adapter) I connected another DVI cable to the second DVI plug of the adapter and connected a PC LCD monitor. I get a perfect picture on the PC LCD monitor from starting the PC up to halfway through the MAME loading screen (WindowsXP configured/tweaked to boot directly into MAME) to which I then get a message displayed by the monitor saying 'Cannot display this video mode, please select..." - so I assume that means the PC is outputting at 15khz (together with J-Pac 'Synch Ok' LED being green)?
2 Following from the above I attached a USB keyboard and was able to (blindly) select a game (could hear the game sound), the screen appeared to change slightly (see pic below) albeit still a variance of horizontal lines - so I assume the picture is coming through just not displaying correctly?

3. The Chassis vendor (well respected in arcade community) couldn't immediatly see an issue with my chassis to Tube configuration (based on above description).

[Zebidee]

Seems that you are trying to do two complicated things at the same time: get your PC system working properly for "RGB" @ 15khz, while simultaneously trying to demonstrate your new monitor/chassis setup working.

BTW, If you were formerly running s-video from a dedicated video card output, most likely it was a TiVo type TV-out, which gives you a single  interlaced video mode (640x480i @60hz I think). Everything just gets squeezed into that, no matter what video mode you choose in Windows. Your games will looks wrong and fuzzy (maybe you think it is not so bad, if that is all you have and are used to it). There is no special setup required. It works, but isn't great.

Unfortunately, the only "respectable" way to get arcade resolutions via s-video, while keeping your video modes pristine and crisp, is to output the 15khz as RGB (via DVI or VGA) and then use a *decent* transcoder device (some are rubbish) to convert the signal colour space into s-video.

Back to what you're doing now: Soft15khz is wonderful for its time, but old. Nobody supports or even uses it much now. Yes it works for XP. If it works, it pretty much works right up to your desktop. Yours does not get you to a usable desktop, even in 640x480i? Has been a long time for me, but after installing soft15khz, make sure that you select "640x480" in display settings (right click on desktop) before restarting the computer. You might need to install the right 640x480 modes for your monitor under "advanced settings/monitor/list modes". Yes, it has been a long time. There is a pinned thread on the forum's monitor/video branch, the info is there though the thread has been inactive a long time.

Sounds like your system boots right into Mamewah. I recall that MW is very fussy about game menu (layout) video resolution matching background resolution. You may need to use the layout designer (supplied with package) to check. If there is any difference, even just colour depth, it can create issues.

CRT_emulator is the newer and best software for 15khz - Latest versions don't support XP anymore, but you could see if the XP version (1.2b) works with your hardware. Your card is in the list of cards supported.

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=65

For best outcomes with CRT_emulator, replace plain MAME with Groovymame (older versions up to ~0.180 support XP, and there are later versions that are hacked to support XP). GM automatically chooses the best video mode and matches game speed to the original frame rates and your monitor's capabilities. This means much less tweaking settings is required to get your games looking perfect, right away. You can run it alongside plain MAME if you like, until you get used to it.

On the other hand, might just be easier to rebuild your CRT gaming setup with a newer computer, video card, CRT_emulator and windows 7+. Might cost you up to around $200 depending on your tastes     A disadvantage of going to Windows 7+ is that you'll need to massage Mamewah a lot to get it working right. There are a few alternative frontends you could consider like Attract-Mode, Hyperspin, Launchbox, FEEL and so on.

You can buy a cheap JAMMA harness everywhere for about $10-$15. Video signal wires clearly marked. Suggest that you grab a few cheap ones and chop away at that instead of soldering directly to your JPAC

[buttersoft]

I'd also say that getting to desktop at 15kHz is your first goal. I would definitely recommend crt_emudriver if you can use it with your hardware - check the GroovyMAME subforum from the list above for links. You can force monitor detection on WinXP if you need to, using a 75R resistor between one of the colour lines and ground. Only do that if needed though.

If you think you're doing everything right but still get no picture, try losing the j-pac - turning up the monitor brightess instead should let you see enough for testing purposes.

[lilshawn]

fact. you are doing too much at the same time, and now that stuff has gone sideways, you can't be sure WHERE the problem actually lies. trying to change too many variables at once get you in this spot.

get yourself a to a working computer setup FIRST (don't worry about resolution yet.) get it to a desktop on a regular computer monitor first.

get it working in 15k next

THEN get it hooked up to the monitor and see what's up.

you don't want to be chasing down rabbit holes of monitor issues when your PC isn't putting out a picture that's usable to it. once we/you know that the info the monitor is getting input is known good... we can ascertain from there what the issue might be.

[soup]

Thanks all, I was hoping that as the setup was already running with a TV that replacing that TV's board (broken part) with an arcade chassis was just a case of installing 156khz and connecting through a J-Pac, I guess not 

So the software side of things is going to be the one that's most fussy and time consuming - I have two other arcade machines with Jamma boards so I might wheel one close and re-connect its Jamma 'video out' conector to the new chassis/Tube and see if I get a pic, just to ensure the new chassis is working and correctly connected/paired to the Tube. Then I'll progress as mentioned above, in steps. Might as well start with a clean slate (PC), including mame and front end - get it to last another 13yrs!

[buttersoft]

Yeah, mixing working parts to test each bit is a great place to start.

For a fresh PC these days I recommend Win10 and a cheap Radeon 5450 or 7450 running crt_emudriver. Just don't get a card from a giant OEM like Dell or HP as those cause issues.

[soup]

...
You can buy a cheap JAMMA harness everywhere for about $10-$15. Video signal wires clearly marked. Suggest that you grab a few cheap ones and chop away at that instead of soldering directly to your JPAC

Now why would I do that, I mean its not like my soldering is that bad or the fact that I can't count, how hard is it - start from the left count to 6 then, skipping the Jamma key slot, continue on counting up to Pins 12/13/14 and then solder.....

 

And there sir was my problem. Not reading the diagram correctly to see that the Jamma key slot is actually numbered (PIN 7 - what Pin , there is no pin!!). sigh.

I had, hours prior, installed Win10 along with GroovyMame + CRT_Emudriver as the PC isn't that old. Wasnt until close to midnight in checking for any shorts on the video wires I noticed in the diagram the Key Slot being numbered. So a quick resolder (moving my wires one pin down) and lo and behold I had a picture, one so rich and bright!

I do have issues where the desktop picture wont fit on the screen width wise (max board adjusted) and its a bit blurry (although I tweaked the Chassis colour pots and that seemed to get it better) especially in Mame FE however the 3 games I tried are fine (although the pre-game pop-up is unreadable). I'll need to read up more on VMMaker and presets, jumping accross to the GroovyMame forum if still having issues.

Thanks gents for guidance above, so impressed by how much better (from S-video) the picture is in games and such a sigh of relief!

[buttersoft]

Thanks gents for guidance above, so impressed by how much better (from S-video) the picture is in games and such a sigh of relief!

If i may speak for us all, you're welcome

And yep, it's 100x worth the jump to RGB, IMO

[Zebidee]

As I've learned from IT help desk operators, much of the time problems come down to making sure everything is connected right in the first place!

I do have issues where the desktop picture wont fit on the screen width wise (max board adjusted) and its a bit blurry (although I tweaked the Chassis colour pots and that seemed to get it better) especially in Mame FE however the 3 games I tried are fine (although the pre-game pop-up is unreadable). I'll need to read up more on VMMaker and presets, jumping accross to the GroovyMame forum if still having issues.

About the "its a bit blurry" - Assuming your CRT's yoke/convergence is reasonably good to start with, try tweaking the flyback. For most brands/models there will be two knobs.

The bottom knob is usually the "screen" voltage, this will influence the overall image brightness. With the actual brightness control pot in the middle position, adjust this until brightness is appropriate.

The top knob is usually the "focus". As the name suggests, adjusting this will bring the image into focus.

Every time you adjust the screen knob, you will need to tweak the focus a little to match. Once you get this looking as good as possible you should then leave it alone - use the brightness/contrast pots instead for everyday adjustments.

As you probably already know, adjusting VMMaker/presets won't affect the blurriness, but you can probably improve the screen size/fit/geometry by adjusting the frontporch and backporch values.

Thanks gents for guidance above, so impressed by how much better (from S-video) the picture is in games and such a sigh of relief!

Cheers

[soup]

About the "its a bit blurry" - Assuming your CRT's yoke/convergence is reasonably good to start with, try tweaking the flyback. For most brands/models there will be two knobs.

Bingo - didnt realise there was these two adjustments on the flyback (assumed they would of been one of the board pots), slight adjustment and the text is now so sharp and well defined (I'm stoked).
Some games the screen was trash, had fixed some (found a post from one of you above 'dotclock_min 8.0') but there's another group that I need to address (still investigating) and find a front end - so sad MaLa is no more

[Zebidee]

Mala is still limping along, but you'll have to do some stuff to support it in Win7+. I never used Mala myself, but looked at it as an option when graduating my systems from older XP/MameWAH setups. There's more on the Mala threads here, will let you search.

In the end, I went with Attract-Mode as a more modern FE with a pro feel. Basic setup is straightforward, easy to get started. Little bit of learning curve to get the best out of it, but very happy with it now. There is an online GUI layout editor but no offline editor - to tweak layouts for my individual CRT TVs I needed to learn how to edit them in "Squirrel". This sounds complex, but is really more about cut-and-paste in Notepad++.

Hyperspin and Launchbox are popular, but may be better suited to more modern displays. There are other FE options out there and thread discussions