UMSA Problems using Radeon 9200SE into LOEWE Calida 5155

[bradley1023]

Hello Everyone

I am building a Cocktail Arcade Machine for a high School technology project, and i am not having any luck in getting a stable picture on my Loewe Calida 5155 CRT from my windows computer running XP SP3 using a radeon 9200SE GC and Arcade Forges UMSA. After some reading around I installed 6.5 Catalyst and reinstalled soft 15khz, its no longer a jumbled mess on the screen but its still rolling dramatically. I am not sure what to fault, its more then likely the configuration of the pc or the graphics card but i am also wondering whether its the CRT, currently when i flick it to a channel like ABC, channel 7, ect, it looks like this:



But when i change it to RGB i get a more jumbled screen like this:



I am not sure what programming is involved in the CRT but isn't it supposed to be using RGB to display the 15Khz, i am not sure, can someone point me in some sought of direction i am getting nowhere. Thanks in advance

Kind Regards
Bradley Fechner

[copados33]

It looks like a sync issue to me, do you have the "sync strike" with the UMSA?

[bradley1023]

Hey copados33, thanks for your reply, i don't have the "Sync Strike", i looked it up and it seems to me that its used for converting an RGB SCART input into a VGA output which is the opposite of what i am doing. I am using a VGA output from my computers graphics card and using the UMSA to convert it into a SCART input for my CRT. So if it was a Sync issue what sought of things could i check?

[copados33]

Have you checked if the ground pin is correctly wired in your Scart cable?? that can be the cause for the distorted image, either that or one of the syncs coming from the VGA cable not making good contact.

At first I thought that you may have a sync problem for having both syncs coming from the VGA cable wired together, but then I remembered that's what the UMSA is for.

[bradley1023]

Yea, shouldn't be any problems there, its a store bought cable so i am pretty trusting of it. I have played around with power strip and not having much success with it either.
Here is a picture of the values of looking at it, straight after i enable soft 15khz, shouldn't the Vertical refresh rate be 60Hz?

[apfelanni]

checklist :

- use a quality scart cable , fully wired  , not the 1 eu non rgb stuff  ( http://www.ebay.de/itm/151231515587 )
- make sure the vga cable is ok and doesnt suffer from cable fracture , defect pins etc .
- 5 volt external power supply is needed ! unless u dont solder a molex and use the pc power supply .
- check the sync jumper on umsa
- try crt emudriver instead of soft 15 k
- there is no need for powerstrip ..
- switch comp to 640x480  60 hertz --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type-- plugging into the tv , it should display interlaced though ..

i m used of doin all pc setup on an old multisync monitor .. if all goes well i ll switch to tv / umsa -  arcade screen / jpac whatever . u have to narrow down all possible fuckups .

[bradley1023]

checklist :

- use a quality scart cable , fully wired  , not the 1 eu non rgb stuff  ( http://www.ebay.de/itm/151231515587 )

Ok i am on School Holidays now so i will have some proper time to fault this problem, i am going to start by going through this list apfelanni supplied, thanks for that.

I have started at the first point of the checklist, the SCART cable i bought is this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271437258836

I know it is a cheaper one but it does however seem fully wired, with every pin being utilised, testing continuity with a multimeter i found it to be wired like the following diagram:


Is this wiring correct for the RGB signal i want?

[apfelanni]

seems to be ok ..

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART#Vollbeschaltung

ps. there is a calida 5155 for sale in the neighbourhood , aprox 15 minutes from here .. 10 eu if i remember correct . i  m thinking of picking up the sucker and find out whats up with loewe and the 3k chassis .

http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s-anzeige/fernseher-loewe-calida-5155-53,3-cm-21-zoll-mit-fernbedienung/189987507-175-1896?ref=search

[bradley1023]

ps. there is a calida 5155 for sale in the neighborhood , aprox 15 minutes from here .. 10 eu if i remember correct . i  m thinking of picking up the sucker and find out whats up with loewe and the 3k chassis .

That would be great if you do, i would greatly appreciate anything you learn about the chassis, and its behavior. I plan to do a lot of work tomorrow on trying to get this to go, i will post my rate of success.

[apfelanni]

well .. it appears the e3000 loewe chassis is very picky with the av input . i switched it to rgb av1 but it wont sync 640x480 interlaced . the problems with these models were mentioned by ur australian scarthunter fellow some time ago .. i forgot bout that .. ..  quality doesnt always mean that it perfectly suits the purpose .

i suggest picking a grundig with 5000 chassis , analog poti based and no auto av , but highly compatible and retrostyle , a philips ( usually good picture , 240-256 p compability depending on chassis type or a sony ( mostly very compatible ) .. 

ps. the build in tube philips a51eal is ideal for arcade purpose .. its been used in combination with lots of arcade chassis ( hantarex polo , valvo etc. and in many tvs . i will dump it as a replacement part , in case i ll scratch or neck one accidently , so the 10 eu are no loss at all . maybe 90 % of the universal arcade cabinets here are a48 and a51 tube based .

[bradley1023]

Oh i was afraid of that sought of thing  , this doesn't mean its impossible to display an image on the E3000 through scart using this theory though does it? I have been reading quite a bit on Scarthunters blog on how to try and do things. I might contact him about a few questions on the E3000 because i am not sure if i will be able to locate a better Scart television before the due date of the assignment.

[bradley1023]

OK i havn't got anywhere today, this is however what i explored today:

checklist :

- make sure the vga cable is ok and doesnt suffer from cable fracture , defect pins etc .

-Tested all pins on the vga cable for continuity and it checked out 100%, i also tested a couple of other vga cables i have on hand with no different results.

checklist :

- 5 volt external power supply is needed ! unless u dont solder a molex and use the pc power supply .

-I am using a 5Volt power power supply i found and it outputs 5+volts at 1.2Amps, so i am not using a MOLEX connection from the pc which is fine isn't it? the Scart input only needs 12 volts applied to it in order for the tv to recognize its an RGB input but this isnt required in my tv because i can select RGB. This is what i found in my research anyway.

checklist :

- check the sync jumper on umsa

-Now we know this chassis is an E3000, it should be set to the positive sync jumper on the UMSA shouldn't it? I did however try the negative setting, the image is different but still a mess.

checklist :

- try crt emudriver instead of soft 15 k

-Well i tried to install Calamity drivers on the pc using the Radeon 9200SE it however said there were no compatible drivers in order for it to install. So i tried another computer using a Radeon X1300/X1500 and Calamity's drivers installed successfully. However trying any of the settings using crtemudriver still leads to garbled images as i got above using soft15khz.

So the bad results i am seeing must be due to the tv's fault, because of its Auto AV capabilities like you say. So i am now trying to find if it is possible at all to display an image through scart using this tv. Or i have no choice but to source another SCART tv, which will be difficult due to some time constraints of the due date of my assignment 

[Paradroid]

Hmm... this is strange. You should be able to get an E3000 to sync with a UMSA. There must be something that's missing... I've tested many E3000 TVs before with this setup.

As Apple Annie said, Loewes produce a high quality image but they're not the most compatible chassis when it comes to the wide ranges of modelines that arcade games use. The bulk of 224p games with be fine but you'll be missing lines when you go up to 240 or 256 unless you manage to force the TV into PAL mode in which case games will run slower or play full speed using triple buffer (no smooth scrolling). There is information on my blog regarding the E3000 and also plenty on the GroovyMAME forum.

The upshot is that the image produced by an E3000 is extremely hard to beat. If you're mostly about 224p games (Neo Geo, CPS1/2/3, System 16 and many, many others) then you'll be very happy indeed.

Now, although I don't have an E3000 here I can test with, there are some setting you should look at. In the channel programming section of the menu system, there are options to setup the AV channel as PAL, NTSC, Auto, PAL-60, etc. You should definitely experiment there. From memory, the Auto option is probably best. Also, the TV works much better in Decoder mode rather than RGB. From memory, the RGB input option doesn't cope with interlaced modes well but the Decoder option does. It's been a while but I know those options are in there somewhere. Make sure you've got your SCART cable in the correct input also. Usually only one port is RGB capable.

The E3000 chassis has two sets of Service Menu settings: one for NTSC and one for PAL. You can set the geometry differently for each mode with is quite cool.

As der Apfel junge said, Grundigs are easier to set up since they cope with pretty much every refresh rate you send them. However, don't give up on the Loewe yet because it will look magic when you finally get it to sync.

Explore the channel programming section and try to get the CRT_emudriver to work. It can be done!

[Paradroid]

I forget to mention, my cousin's name is Bradley Fechner... weird! I thought he might have rediscovered his love of Street Fighter II when I first read your post.

[bradley1023]

Hey Paradroid, thanks for the help, sadly i am still having no luck with getting it to sync, i just about feel i have gone in circles and back to where i started and i am still not sure where to fault the problem, the graphics card/drivers, the UMSA or is it the tv and its settings.

So i got crt emu driver installed on the xp computer with the ATI Radeon X1300 graphics card. plugged it into the TV (The AV1 RGB, not the AV2 S-VHS OUT ) I set up VNC viewer on my mac so i could control the computer while i changed settings. Then i mainly tried the 640x480 options using Arcade OSD while changing the options for the AV channels. no matter what i tried, i could only get a messy picture, bellow i attached a few,

Here's a video of the best i could get it, please excuse any voices, i am using our lounge room to do all my testing in.





Here's a few still images, when the camera takes a photo it only captures only one frame of the unsynced mess making me feel its so close to being right, there's just something thats interfering with it or it needs tweaking, i just don't know where to look.





Can anyone think of what i might be able to try next. otherwise i am sadly about ready to throw in the towel 

[bradley1023]

I forget to mention, my cousin's name is Bradley Fechner... weird! I thought he might have rediscovered his love of Street Fighter II when I first read your post.

Haha  wow small world isn't it. Fechner isn't a common last name either, just about everyone who has contacted us about a friend with the last name fechner is closely related to us somehow.

[Calamity]

Hi bradley1023,

Any reason why you're testing 61 Hz instead of 60 Hz? Both hfreq & vfreq are out of spec for the NTSC standard with the video mode your testing.

[bradley1023]

Hi bradley1023,

Any reason why you're testing 61 Hz instead of 60 Hz? Both hfreq & vfreq are out of spec for the NTSC standard with the video mode your testing.

Are these values in spec? If not does this mean that arcade osd hasn't created unusable video modes due to something i need to fix 

[Calamity]

Yeah those values are in spec. Have you ever tested this *without* having VNC installed in that system? Remote control programs may screw custom video.

[Calamity]

The right way to do this stuff is with 2 monitors instead of 2 computers. You plug a normal pc monitor to one of the ouputs then the TV to the other. That way you always have an usable screen to work with. You can use ArcadeOSD (the most recent version) to target both screens indepently, so you place the little window in the PC monitor and apply the settings to the TV.

[bradley1023]

Ok, that's interesting, i haven't thought of the remote control program interfering with the results and all tests i have made on both computers have been with it. I wont be able to do this with my Radeon 9200SE because its outputs are vga, s-video and composite sync. however the Radeon X1300 has a DVI, S-video and VGA, So can i use the VGA to go to the TV and the DVI to the monitor? because i don't have a DVI to VGA converter.

And my version of ARCADE_OSD says in properties it was last modified February 26th 2011. would this be the latest version?

[Calamity]

Get the latest version (1.3b) here: http://mame.3feetunder.com/windows-ati-crt-emudriver/

I think the X1300 still had the primary output on the VGA so that will probably work. Once in Windows, you'd better place the primary desktop on the PC monitor so you don't loose access to it. In order to target the TV, drag ArcadeOSD's window to the TV, select attach osd to current monitor, then drag the window back to the pc monitor so you can see what you do. Then use "2" to switch full screen on/off, etc. I can't promise it will work but it's worth to try.

[bradley1023]

I set up everything quite easily, no problems at all. but sadly no difference to the picture on the crt at all. From the videos and pictures, is it possible to see why the picture isn't holding from the way its scrolling?

[Calamity]

From the way it scrolls it looks like a H-sync problem. Does the UMSA output composite sync by default?

[bradley1023]

I found this on the page in which i bought the UMSA from;

- Composite Video Sync Generatin by logic. Thus a wider range of graphic cards and TV are supported. This results in more stable signal as well.

Heres the link to that page, if it possibly may supply any other helpful information. It makes out as if its so easy to set-up, plug and play they describe it as, far from it in my opinion .

http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultimate-SCART-Adapter::57.html

[Calamity]

Have you tried this jumper?

- Jumper for negative and positve sync. Some signal needs a positive sync and some are negative. Configure here your needs.

[bradley1023]

Yes i have tried the negative and positive settings of that jumper, It seems to make little difference

[Calamity]

More ideas:

- While outputting 15 kHz, hot plug the PC monitor to the VGA to see what its osd tells about the frequency. This is to check we're actually outputting 15 kHz.

- Download Winmodelines: (http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/modeline-en.html) and try to enable composite sync by software (c-sync checkbox).

[bradley1023]

Thats was a good idea, i am not sure why i didn't think of that, while testing the 640x480 my computer monitor actually says, video out of reach then states H:15Khz V:60Hz. Does this prove that its outputting correctly and the problem lies between the tv and UMSA?

this made me think of something i probably should have mentioned, should i be able to have an 800x600 option thats in 15Khz because i don't. but 640x480 should work regardless shouldn't it?

I actually played around with Winmodlines this morning after reading about it on the forum here somewhere. It makes no difference selecting the c-sync checkbox. also changing the h-sync and v-sync to a + at the start rather then a - like the forum post was talking about made no difference either.

[Calamity]

Does this prove that its outputting correctly and the problem lies between the tv and UMSA?

Maybe, even the wiring could be bad. Is the UMSA receiving power fine?

800x600 is possible at 50 Hz / 15 kHz, it's simply that it's not being installed by your current configuration of VMMaker etc.

[bradley1023]

So i decided to have a look whether the UMSA was actually receiving power fine, looking at the board closely i couldn't help but notice a small dot on IC2, taking a photo of it and zooming in on it, it looks like its got hot here  !



Funnily enough the leg that is adjacent to this small spot is a direct connection to the +5 Volts. It can't of been the 5V wall adapter, i tested it on the multimeter and it checked out fine. What could have caused this? and could this be what is preventing my signal to sync on the tv. I also couldn't help but notice that ApfelAnni's name is on the board, would you possibly know what IC2 is responsible for and is my UMSA now broken 

[Calamity]

Well let's wait for someone experienced with electronics comes but that actually looks like it could be damaged... 

[bradley1023]

Yes it does look as if it its damaged, i will wait for someone who might be able to help me test IC2 and explain what its responsible for. If they can more or less confirm this would be the reason for my sync issue, i will look into fixing it further. Otherwise my parents have noticed this has now taken me countless days and i still have alot of other grade 12 work and commitments to attend to, so for the School projects sake i may have to resort to putting a Computer monitor into it. A shame because mounting a tv into it when its assembled later on will probably be more difficult and i just wanted to experience these games to the closest as they were originally in their native resolutions 

[apfelanni]

if u want to know how the sync generation and the 5-12 v routing for rgb and av on works u should ask bencao from arcadeforge.net .

. i couldnt get any stable picture from the loewe , no matter of using the umsa or a self soldered mamescart cable with h+v sync wired together . even an ultralowcost home depot like china tv for crosstesting had no problems with umsa-mamescart cable .

why dont u pick up or borrow a second 50-60 hertz tv to make a comparison ? takes a few minutes and ure 100 % sure if the umsa is defektive or the e3xxx chassis sucks ass.  are u located in the australian outback or somewhere called " the void " ??

i d say the loewe chassis has some issues .. dunno if  that can be corrected somehow . my advise : dont waste ur time ..

[bradley1023]

Thanks apfelanni, this more or less tells me the loewe isn't simply compatible because of the auto av sync you mentioned earlier, I kept having a go because Scarthunter said it isn't easy to sync but its a great screen for what i am doing when i get it to work.

 I am located in Southern Queensland Australia and i have not been finding it easy to find a CRT Scart tv the right size or even one at all. I will try and keep a look out for one, If anyone just might happen to see one come up near here, (i am about a half an hours drive north from the NSW coastal border) i"d appreciate if you let me know, that is if you don't want it for yourself 

[tariq2900]

hi did you solve the proplem? coz i have the same issue i recived my umsa few days ago it was working fine but now its not 

[tariq2900]

I think my umsa problem is from the vga input somthing wrong with the pin coz when i touch the second pin in the back of umsa the image look ok , i took the umsa to eletronic shop to remove the vga inpunt and replace it with new one i will wait and see