Is there an optimal height for the CP?

[patrickl]

I'm trying to design an upright cab, but I keep running into the question how heigh things should be placed.

The basic issue is where to place the control panel. When it's too low you have to bend your wrists to press the buttons and use the joystick. At least for me that starts to hurt even after 15 minutes of play. When it is placed too heigh things will look weird.

I assumed to be ergonomical the CP should be placed slightly above the elbows. Just like a computer keyboard is around elbow height and then your forarms slope up on a  5 degree angle. For my height that would put the cab at around 1.25 meters heigh (about 50")  On a regular cab this seems to be 30" to 35" so I seem to end up quite a lot heigher.

For the monitor placement, again if I use the rule for a computer monitor stating that the top of the monitor should be at eye level. For me that's about 1.70m (or 67") add a marquee and some panels and the total height would be 1.95m (77").  Again I seem to end up about 10" heigher than usual.

Using these figures my cab would end up looking something like this:


Apart from "me" looking a tad weird, I guess the cab looks weird too. The CP looks placed disproportionately heigh. A large part of the skinny look effect is caused by the fact that the cab will be 60cm (24") deep instead of the usual 80cm (31"), but still ...

I'm wondering why I end up with these different figures. I played on a Class of 81 MsPac/Galaga cab and indeed I could not play for longer than 15 minutes before my wrists started to hurt.

I wonder:
- Am I holding the buttons and sticks the wrong way (with my wrists extended straight along my forearm)?
- Am I just taller than the people the cabs are designed for? (being 1.85m or about 6 foot tall)?
- Should I just use a stool and lower myself into the cab (problem might be that my knees will the run into the front of the cab)?

[Minwah]

Well the top-most part of my CP is 98cm, and the top of monitor is around 150cm or so...

On the very little playtesting I have done on my machine I would say it felt *slightly* low for me standing up -  I am also 6' tall.  I found sitting on a high stool more comfortable, but as I say I have done limited testing so far...

I think basically 'real' cabs were/are not ergonomically designed for 6' adults.  Where you have placed your controls at the right height for you with your arms bent up, most real cabs do have you lean down to the controls.  Imagine a 12 year old kid trying to reach up to your controls...they probably wouldn't even be able to see the screen!

I think you need to find a comprimise between 'real' cab dimensions and your perfect ergonomic cab - bias it towards which is most important to you

Edit: just thought I'd add that my cab is ~178cm tall over all.

[NoOne=NBA=]

The front of my CP is at 37-1/2", the back is 38-1/2".

I played with the height using magazines to shim a prototype on my kitchen counter until I figured out what height was most comfortable to me.

Unlike the guy in your picture, I tend to bend forward at the waist while playing.
This straightens both wrists, and makes it more comfortable for me to play.
The bottom of the front of my CP is at 30-1/2", but that is set back about an inch from the front of the CP itself.
During my experimentation phase I found that these dimensions were very comfortable both standing, and seated on one of the "kitchen chair" type barstools I have.

I have also tested this CP with my sister's kids, and found they can play it fairly easily.
Their ages range from 5-13.
It's a little high for the 5 year old, but I usually let him stand on the step we have for the bathroom sink, and he does fine.

I've got an Asteroids style cab (where the marquee comes out significantly over the CP).
The bottom of the marquee is at 64-1/2".
The top of the cab is at 75".
This is a little taller than the "real" Asteroids cabinets, but I have a 10" marquee on mine, which forced me to go taller on the overall height.

Your IDEAL dimensions may vary from the dimensions I gave above, but those dimensions are what I found most comfortable while experimenting.
During the experimental phase, I used cardboard to mockup the entire cabinet around a "rolling table" I built as a frame for the lower half of the cabinet.
That let me tweak everything until I got it EXACTLY the way I wanted before committing to wood with the design.

[GamingGreg]

... I assumed to be ergonomical the CP should be placed slightly above the elbows. Just like a computer keyboard is around elbow height and then your forarms slope up on a  5 degree angle. ...

I would assume the opposite.  I believe the CP needs to be slightly below the elbows to be comfortable.

If you are designing this cabinet to be played by just you (or mostly you),  then go with what feels right to you.  Since we all have different body dimensions, what is ergonomic to one, might not be ergonomic to another.  I believe, that most cabinets in the arcades were designed for the average teen or young adult (as that was big demographic or "target audience").  I'm sure they leaned to the smaller end of the scale, so they could include as many people as possible, but not so small that most people would have to hunch way over to play.

You might want to take a trip to the local arcade and find some cabinets that "feel right" to you, and then measure them.

[Jakobud]

Take a browse through OSHA's egonomic standards and research information.  You will find all sorts of informational studies on how items and manufactured to fit the average human being.  Here you could find a lot of stuff on the average heights / dimensions of humans and it could tell you ergonomically how to best design the height of your control panel.

[Stormy151]

I stand just short of 6 foot (like 5'11 and 3/4).  After visiting several arcades (well, arcade type places anyway- a Gameworks, a Jillian's and a Fuddrucker's with a Ms Pac Man/Galaga)  I determined that the most comfortable panel height (for me) landed about where my leg met my torso- which just about 36".

I figured that I would try to get fairly close to the same height as an average arcade cabinet, so that it would be accessible to all ages.  But of course, if that height hadn't worked out I would have biased it for my own comfort.

[DougHillman]

I stand just short of 6 foot (like 5'11 and 3/4).  After visiting several arcades (well, arcade type places anyway- a Gameworks, a Jillian's and a Fuddrucker's with a Ms Pac Man/Galaga)  I determined that the most comfortable panel height (for me) landed about where my leg met my torso- which just about 36".

I figured that I would try to get fairly close to the same height as an average arcade cabinet, so that it would be accessible to all ages.  But of course, if that height hadn't worked out I would have biased it for my own comfort.

I'm about an inch shorter and find that 36" is pretty much optimal for me as well.  Seems to be a good all around comfort zone.  The front of the CP on the cabs I'm building start at 36" and have about a 1" rise to the back.

D

[patrickl]

Wow, a lot of replies, thanks!

I forgot to say that I playtested my estimates by putting books on a desk and then put my monitor and standalone Galaga CP on top. I found the measurements I calculated quite comfortable to play (took me a while to stop testing   ). It's just that the resulting cab design looks so weird.

I guess playing on a tall cab like this would be a problem for kids, but perhaps they could sit on a stool too.

I see that most of you end up in the 36" to 37" range. That's actually quite far from my heights. I will try that out with my mock-up setup and see how it fits. Actually, my friends are all taller than me, so they will probably don't mind if it's a bit heigh anyway. My kid is 80cm heigh so he won't be playing much for years to come anyway.

You might want to take a trip to the local arcade and find some cabinets that "feel right" to you, and then measure them.

That's just it. I tried in a local arcade and I found the few cabs (that actually had a joystick and buttons on it) play horrible. The Galaga/MsPac was so low I could almost see over the top of it! Trouble is I can hardly find a cabinet that doesn't have a steering wheel, light gun, bike seat or set of ski's attached. There is no real arcade anymore, just simulator games *sigh*

I'm wondering why a CP is sloped up if you don't slope your forarms up in the same angle?  When you have a lower CP, do you find that you bend your wrists? Doesn't the CP slope then just hinder an easy grip by making you need to bend your wrist more.

[Felsir]

I found that I use my cab the most while sitting on a barstool (I hope it's the correct word, not a native english speaker). So keep in mind when designing your cab in what way you will use the cab the most. Sitting requires different ergonomics than standing up (also in terms of leg-space etc.)

[mnm]

I've been thinking about this for a while as I design my cabinet, and was thinking of sloping the cp so that the front of it was higher than the back near the monitor (so it would have the opposite slope to what seems normal).  This would make it less of a strain on the wrists, and the cp wouldn't be as high as patrickl was talking about.

Martin

[crashwg]

Just don't spill yer beer mnm...

[patrickl]

A barstool would be one of my options yes. I probably don't like standing for hours anyway. Guess I better go and buy one of those to playtest some more   But as I said before indeed I'm afraid I will run my knees into the front of the cab. I'm working on a Galaga type style so the front is quite flat from CP to bottom. Not much room there.

mnm,

Yeah I would think that a downward slope would make more sense if your CP is below your elbow. I really can't figure out why the slope is like it is when the CP on a standard cabs to me looks too low for the slope to work for the player. I would imagine A "down slope" can give some other design problems though.

[dmsuchy]

I really do like your design so far, kinda looks like an ATM. When larger flat screens come down in price I expect to see quite a few "thin" cabs.

[patrickl]

Yeah, the LCD is a must. Perhaps a CRT would be better, but that would be to "fat" for where the cab is gonna sit. Luckily I already have an 18" LCD which can even rotate. Dunno how I'm gonna rotate it from outside the cab and keep it nicely behind a bezel at the same time, but that's the idea right now. If that fails I guess it's going in vertical.

The ability to extract money from the machine would sure be a nice feature Does ATM software work in MAME yet?  

[hyiu]

not exactly on topic...

but I have seen a cab (on the example page...) that uses a rotatable LCD.... they make it so that the front glass... (ok.. I forgot... maybe front plexi / lexan)... is hinged and can be opened like a door....

so... just snap... open... rotate... close... you're done...

and yes.. the glass/plexi is tinted.... so... its good....
you don't see much details inside....

[edit]... also... the monitor hole is a square shape...
so... the bezel will fit with either way of rotation...
[/edit]

[NoOne=NBA=]

The bezel on my cab is just held in place by cabinet magnets.
I left a couple little tabs of vinyl near the top that you can just grab and pull to remove the bezel.

[patrickl]

Ah those bezel tips are good to know. I'll keep them in mind. I was thinking about a round bit of bezel that would rotate along with the monitor. But that seemed way to difficult to keep perfectly aligned (the rotating circle inside the round bezel hole I mean) Keeping a square area free around the monitor sounds a lot easier.

As far as my CP height problem goes ... I have been playtesting my CP at 37" and seriously I cannot play for more than a single game of Galaga and I'm not THAT good at it (so a game doesn't last that long). At 45"-50" I can play fine (for hours   ) but that really looks ridiculously heigh. I just can't seem to figure this out.

I guess it all comes down to how you hold your hands (and then more importantly your wrist). Do you all sit on a stool so the CP is relatively a bit heigher up? Or do you really bend your wrists a lot (without it starting to hurt)?

[patrickl]

I think I might understand where I went "wrong". I was trying to put my hands flat on the control panel over the buttons. With a low CP that means I have to angle my hands at about 90 degree angle to my forearm (i.e. break twist my wrist real badly). If I just press the buttons with my fingertips and keep my hand pointing down then I hardly need to bend my wrist to play on a lower CP.

I still feel playing with the CP at chest height is nicer, but since that looks so ridiculous, I think I'm gonna go for a CP placed at 38" (or something like that)

Thanks for the info people!

[DrewKaree]

As I was reading this, I figured i'd give MNM's idea a try (CP sloping from front to back).  I took this to mean that the CP would be highest on the side right in front of you, sloping downward away from you.  If I'm incorrect, MNM, please correct me.

This will ONLY work if you have enough space to rest your forearms on, almost to your elbows.  Why?  In mocking it up and testing it, I found that if, when placing your hands on the buttons, your forearm was anywhere on the edge of the CP, in short order the blood supply WILL be reduced, your fingers will start to get cold, and eventually, they'll "fall asleep".  

IF you have a CP with enough real estate to have your forearm on it all the way to your elbows, no problem.  Of course, don't ever show a picture of it here, as it will probably get ridiculed for having enough room to fit every control known to man on it!

Make sense?  Mock it up and try it.  It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes for you to start to see what I'm talking about.  My fingers started to lose feeling around 10 minutes.

[Howard_Casto]

Without giving you all kinds of crazy calculations and reasoning let me give you the short answer:

The front of your control panel (it's slanted afterall) should be about 36 inches high.  That is the approximate height of the control panel on a midway mortal kombat cabinet, the best cabinet (comfort wise) ever made.  

You'll find that 90% of all arcade machines fall somewhere in this area.  You'll also find that the averge male's elbow joints are about 4-5 inches higher than this, thus allowing for maximum comfort when your arms are on the control panel.  

I'm suprised so much debate was caused over such a straight forward question.  

[patrickl]

drewkaree,

You're not supposed to touch the CP with your forearms.

The idea was that the slope of the CP should follow the slope of your arms. Like with a computerkeyboard. You arms slope slightly up over the keyboard and when you keep your arms the way they are supposed to be kept your wrist is straight and your hands hover over the keyoard without your arms touching anything.  

Now the next step is that the CP apparently sits much lower than your elbows. So your forearms will naturally slope down. If you tilt the CP to match the slope of your forearms again things should work fine. Apart from the fact that it will probably look even more silly than a CP at chestheight  

[patrickl]

You'll find that 90% of all arcade machines fall somewhere in this area.  You'll also find that the averge male's elbow joints are about 4-5 inches higher than this, thus allowing for maximum comfort when your arms are on the control panel.  

I'm suprised so much debate was caused over such a straight forward question.  

The problem is that you are (probably) right for people that are about 4' 6" tall. For a fullgrown (european) adult at about 6' the (underside of the) elbows will be around 45".

[DrewKaree]

I figured i'd give MNM's idea a try

dunno if that was missed.  I was going with HIS idea.  In testing this, if you DON'T rest your forearms on the CP, your shoulders will start to hurt.  Once your shoulders start to hurt, the natural inclination is to rest your forearms on something to take the pressure off of your shoulders.  

You're not supposed to touch the CP with your forearms.

I understand.  Even though MNM didn't state that idea in his post, I never considered consciously resting my forearms on the CP.  In theory, it'd work like that.  In practice, it's a whole other ball game.  Another reason you will unconsciously start to rest your forearms is that with the reverse angle he referred to you will feel like you are "reaching" for the controls, bringing more odd muscles into play.  

I think when building from scratch, build the CP to suit YOUR needs.  The odds are that you will be the one playing the game MOST, so make it comfortable for yourself.  Take your CP, grab some books (if you don't have books, try produce ), and start playing around with angles.  

If the goal is to make a CP that you AND YOUR BUDDIES will be comfortable on, then bring YOUR BUDDIES over for a testing session.  This forum has provided examples, but what if you build it and your buddies say "This feels lame, awkward, wack, sketchy" etc?  Are you gonna tell them "the guys on the forum said to do it this way"?  

I don't intend that last part as sarcastic or ass-clown-like.  I just mean it as "build to meet your needs".  The only way your needs will be met is to flesh them out and give it a test.  The worst thing that could happen is that you take our recommendations, use them, and after building it, hate it for the rest of the time you have it.  

Optimal for you probably is not optimal for someone else, and you may decide on a compromise of what works for you vs what works for your buddies or you may say screw it, it works for ME, deal with it or play your own cab.  Regarding what Howard said, the cab he is referring to was built to accomodate a wide range of body sizes.  This means it will be playable to that wide range of body sizes everyone to play, but it won't be OPTIMAL for every person.  Your own stated preference for a chest-high position is testament to that.  Last I checked, they never made a Mortal Combat with that CP configuration.

Think of it as beta testing for your CP!

*edit*
re-thought an idea

[patrickl]

He, he, yes. Well the problem is I DID beta test and I ended up with a CP at 50" (for my height). The idea being that the angle of the forearm is at the same angle (to the ground) as the CP is. So then the height is a personal thing and in my case 50" (actually it even depends on how far you stand from the cab).

When people have their CP at 36" (and assuming they are 6' tall and also assuming they are standing up) they will have their forearms sloping down. Apparently using a different ergonomics design idea as the one in my drawing. I assumed it's that people point their hands down and press the buttons with their fingertips. but if I understand you correctly then you will rest your palms on the CP to stop your shoulders from hurting. If I try that then the bend in my wrists really hurts.

I actually did test a lot with books (yes I still have them) and even boxes (to get up to 50") and I have to say I was able to play with my hands pointing down for quite a while. Allthough I didn't test it for hours. Seriously you should try having the CP at a heigh just a few inches above your elbows. I think it feels great. It's just that it looks so weird (and gives me design issues for the rest of the cab).

[DrewKaree]

Sorry, I was editing my post while you were posting that last item.  

Your first paragraph hits it right on the head with

So then the height is a personal thing and in my case 50" (actually it even depends on how far you stand from the cab)

The only way CP height WON'T be a subjective thing (including angles and such) is if you're restoring a cab and want it to be "original".

Seriously, get your buddies over.  They may even have an idea you never even thought of.  Then they'll enjoy your cab even more thinking they contributed.  

And you can thank them by spanking 'em soundly in competition