*Ping* Dave - RAM Controls

[DillonFoulds]

www.woot.com gives away bags of crap all the time, and they aren't too shabby at all. Just random items they're had woots for that are left over, but not enough to run another woot on.

[TheShanMan]

I have to wonder if it's even possible to please "most" of the people.

Again, do you have any reason to believe that the very few who dog you represent a larger group? I really wonder if there are more than a handful who fall into the Friz/Chad camp. Those people want to attack at any opportunity, so I'd think we'd be hearing many more people chiming in if there really was a much larger group. I think you're doing just fine at pleasing "most" of the people.

People couldn't care less why you're behind so no matter how much you update the blog people generally won't care. They only care about getting what they were promised. After all, you are a business and they are the customer. I guess coming from the otherside of the fence than most other people makes it easier to turn a blind eye to it all.

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

[FrizzleFried]

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

Potential customers don't count now?  Not a very smart business frame of mind IMHO.

[RobotronNut]

... I admit that much of this is of my own doing because I do try to commit to release dates.  I've been flip flopping on that idea, but I'm leaning towards moving away from using pre-orders if it will reduce the amount of backlash I receive.  I really feel that if the pre-orders and drop dead release dates were a thing of the past, people might come up with something else to complain about. ...

i'll put in a vote for no pre-orders and no pre-announced release dates.

publish updates as often as you like, but don't build any expectations about when the product will ship. don't even say things like "the project is 90% done." just say things like, "the gears arrived today and they look good." then, one day, you can give us all a pleasant surprise by announcing that the product is shipping.

it's all about managing expectations.

[ChadTower]

You only have a dollar. Do you buy a $1 hot dog or a $1 notebook? If you buy the hot dog, the notebook is the "opportunity cost" (and vice versa); and no, you don't have a legitimate complaint against the hot dog vendor for costing you a notebook.

But they haven't gotten their SW yokes yet, right? It is irrelevant, because of the offer of the refund if anyone tires of waiting; so that's part of the deal that they bought into.  

BTW; "opportunity cost" is just a concept; it is not a real, tangible cost.

This response doesn't reflect the business definition of Opportunity Cost at all.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  And I'm not interested in debating it further.

Anyway, I've put out there how I feel about the situation, and Dave has heard my comments.  Note that I still have a pending preorder with him.  I'll bow out of the thread now.

[shardian]

I think I have mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again. Dave, at this point you HAVE to have at least one completed yoke. Even if it is hand crimped and wired, so be it. You simply JUST HAVE TO HAVE ONE COMPLETED SAMPLE PRODUCT!

Take that sample, snap a few pics, take a bit of video, and post it. You should have done this months ago. That's really what the nay-sayers want.

You are right, if you wouldn't have set dates, then the "It's a scam" naysayers with nothing better to do would have been dancing in the field well away from the woodwork. A simple working sample would have deterred them all.

Secondly, send a sample to a well known reliable tester. Either Retroblast or someone affiliated with Gameroom magazine. I guarantee you that you would get a VERY LARGE article spread in that magazine - probably the cover too.

[Havok]

I for one am satisfied to wait for a perfect completed product. Honestly, at this point, one more month means nothing considering how long I have already been waiting. Just hoping that Dave can complete and ship before Christmas.

Dave - let me know if you need any help testing with Mame since I pre-ordered the yoke and controller...

[TheShanMan]

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

Potential customers don't count now?  Not a very smart business frame of mind IMHO.

I would lump together pre-order customers and those who want to order once the product is shipping. I haven't seen the complainers state that they are interested in buying, but I certainly could have missed that. You aren't thinking of buying one though, are you?

Ideally pre-orders should be acceptable because it's a nice way to let those who are willing to wait get the product at a reduced price, but it seems that the only way to prevent people from complaining about delays is to eliminate pre-orders. It's sad actually because I'm not even sure that the pre-order folks have even complained, but what can you do? Apparently it's just not worth it. So my reluctant vote (if anyone even cares) would be for no pre-orders.

[Cakemeister]

This whole thing reminds me of the Big Bang Bar pinball story. The guy takes preorders and then takes years to create the final product. Cost overruns and production snags aplenty. Eventually there is a happy ending and the machines are produced.

People should not forget that the yokes are not Dave's only product.

Also, I respectfully disagree with TheShanMan's opinion that preorders should be eliminated. In some cases preorders are the only to gauge interest in a product. The market for these yokes obviously is limited to SW console owners and hobbyists. If Dave blindly produced a yoke and there proved to be no market for it then Dave would be out many thousands of dollars. And you can't count "Hey I'd buy one" as market interest.

But I do agree that Dave should have produced at least one prototype, just to prevent possible manufacturing snags.

[Deadly]

This community is wishy washy at best. It's sad (for one instance) that you have the bigger players such as Quarterarcade and Phoenix arcade not willing to step in and try doing a run of particular artwork because "as mentioned above I'LL TAKE ONE" is almost BS everytime. So taking pre-orders ...... in order to secure my investment I sure as hell would and I think a person would be foolish not to. Notice I said "I think" which doesn;t mean that's the law - it's an opinion only.

C'mon guys - let's all be friends again and sit down with a pint! 

[metahugh]

I'LL TAKE ONE" is almost BS everytime

Very true... although some of us do follow through we we say we are in for one.  Every product I have said I would buy one for I have bought and multiples too.

Mario Bros CPO Repro - Quarterarcade
Burgertime CPO and Kickplate Art - This Old Game
Multiwilliams PCB - JROK
Multiwilliams Bezels - TheTanMan (on KLOV)

Just to name a few.

[Deadly]

Sorry my post wasn't trying to point to anyone in particular.... hope it wasn't percieved that way. I'm the same way, if I say "I'm in" then I am 100% commited. In fact I encourage people to take my money to ensure the project does indeed see the light of day. In a selfish sort away - I guess I feel there's more of a reason the person has to follow through at that point. Too many times have there been ideas brought to the table but never saw the light of day.

[MameMaster!]

Interesting you should suggest an article  in GameRoom. I actualy wrote it about 3 years ago when this was first announced. The article has since been shelved. 

[ChadTower]

I'd like to mention that I received a package from Dave less than 24 hours from my request to ship the roller controller separately from the Major Havoc CP.  I didn't need shipping like that - parcel post would have been fine - but he shipped it cross country overnight. 

This thing is really nice.  We can debate some of his practices but we sure as hell cannot debate quality.

[prOk]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   I wish I could get everything I want to do done on a perfect schedule without unexpected costs or real life getting in the way.  I'm sure david is no different but with the scale of his projects it's just that much more difficult.

He has clearly offered anyone that wants their money back the opportunity to do so, meaning anyone left with cash on the table is doing so openly and voluntarily.  What point does kicking him over and over again prove?  He's done quite a number of amazing parts so there's no question his ability to do it, so what if it doesn't meet an artificial deadline?   As long as you have either gotten your money back or made the choice to hold on until it's done there's no reason to keep up the bashing unless there's just some deep seeded motives involves I don't know about.  It will be done when it's done, would be a shame to see someone with his resources stop doing anything over something like this. 

[Level42]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 


I agree with prOk. I've sometimes been unkind to David, and he's always stayed cool and kind. More than kind.
In my book he already deserves a statue for all the parts he has made available.
Parts for which there are NO alternatives.
Parts that no-one else would even consider producing because of the simple reason that it's _highly_ doubtful that he will even break even.
Parts are not just equal to original quality but way over-specced in many cases.

Yes, in all honesty it may have been best to not set a deadline, but this is a labor of love. It's a hobby. It's not a daytime job.

[ChadTower]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   

How is that different from any small business?  That is the owner's time and the owner's dime too.

[CheffoJeffo]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   

How is that different from any small business?  That is the owner's time and the owner's dime too.

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

[ChadTower]

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

The people paying for the product did the same thing.  It's a circular debate. 

[CheffoJeffo]

If he were keeping the money and not making things right with those who want their money back or partial orders shipped now, then it might be circular.

As it stands, it isn't.

[prOk]

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

The people paying for the product did the same thing.  It's a circular debate. 

Not circular in the slightest.  Those that paid have been offered and received their money back on request meaning that NOBODY is financially on the hook besides David for what he's already invested in time, equipment and materials unless they actively volunteer to be.  Huge difference, but it seems perhaps this is more about piling on than anything else at this point

There are many people that do repro parts and stuff that deal with their offerings as a small business but that does not diminish the fact that they formed those businesses just to supply things and do creative stuff in their off hours.  Most people doing this stuff don't actually profit much at all, certainly not enough to justify the beatings they take if they can't meet a timeline on something.  In all honesty, this stuff on occasion has to take a backseat because the real world forces you to do so and the vast majority of folks are completely understanding and can put things in proper perspective while others see it as an opportunity to seek and destroy.  Everyone's different I guess.

[Loafmeister]

Maybe there's something to be said to "there's no such thing as bad publicity" because if it came with a USB interface to connect to a PC based mame cab, I think I'd order one of the yokes now, and before all this drama, I didn't really have a desire before!

I think a lot of the headaches Dave is getting would be eliminated by just adding the following to the pre-order page of his website so it's clear that the deadlines are best effort and refunds are available.

"Due to the realities of R&D combined with the effort/intent to provide you with a quality product, all proposed deadlines are "best effort". Please see (insert web address of blog) for updates on the products progress and expected release date.  Deadlines are taken very seriously, great effort is put forth to meeting them. However, if they are not met, please feel free to request a refund on your pre-order, it will be granted without hesitation."

As far as pro/con comments, I don't think anyone is wrong, there's justification for both POVs.

[FrizzleFried]

Founded in 2005, RAM Controls produces quality reproduction controls for classic arcade games.  Our staff is made up of several experts in the arcade manufacturing industry, with extensive experience in electronics & mechanical R&D, manufacturing, repair and part sourcing. Our key designers and production personnel have over 80 years of combined experience in the arcade business. RAM Controls strives for the utmost quality, and our reproduction controls and parts are made to strict quality standards, often much higher than those installed in the original games.

Right on the front page.  Sure sounds like a business to me... being he has several experts in the arcade manufacturing industry on his payroll including "production personnel" and "key designers".  Do you have multiple employees Prok?  I'd venture to guess that most secondary "hobby" related business don't... usually just the one guy doing his best to get stuff done.  The above quote sure makes it sound like it's a professional 1st tier business,  no?

It looks like a duck... it walks like a duck... hell,  it even quacks like a duck... but I'm supposed to believe it's a cow?

...just sayin'.

[CheffoJeffo]

And here I thought that you didn't care ...

If it's a cow, then MAME it. Problem solved.

[FrizzleFried]

And here I thought that you didn't care ...

If it's a cow, then MAME it. Problem solved.

Well,  no one listens to me anyway.  And I don't.  But a MAMEd cow might be an interesting thing.  Use the udders as joysticks?



Close:



 

[CheffoJeffo]

I could have sworn that I actually saw udders as a control device on a machine, but I'll be damned if I am going to search for it.

Back to the issue at hand though ... I think that both you and I agree that Dave is not a scammer. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that he provides a service to the community. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that, as a community, we should be grateful for that.

Here is where we have the problem ... you're happy to jump on Dave for missing deadlines and letting the whole project go on for as long as he had.

How does your holding his feet to the fire help resolve that or, perhaps more importantly, encourage him to keep working on repro projects ?

I get that his talk about deadlines has prompted your actions -- hell, he practically invited you to do so.

My question is -- how are you helping anybody in the hobby by calling him out ?

And, if you aren't, then why bother in the first place ?

[FrizzleFried]

I could have sworn that I actually saw udders as a control device on a machine, but I'll be damned if I am going to search for it.

Back to the issue at hand though ... I think that both you and I agree that Dave is not a scammer. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that he provides a service to the community. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that, as a community, we should be grateful for that.

Here is where we have the problem ... you're happy to jump on Dave for missing deadlines and letting the whole project go on for as long as he had.

How does your holding his feet to the fire help resolve that or, perhaps more importantly, encourage him to keep working on repro projects ?

I get that his talk about deadlines has prompted your actions -- hell, he practically invited you to do so.

My question is -- how are you helping anybody in the hobby by calling him out ?

And, if you aren't, then why bother in the first place ?

I've not commented on the yoke situation since I said I was done.   I simply responded to folks saying this is a secondary "hobby" business for him,  which it certainly may be... but that's not how he portrays his business on his website.  If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.   I mean that facility pictured on his site has to cost some pretty decent dough... and employees earn a paycheck.  I assume these are the same employees that are wiring up the yokes... getting hand cramps,  etc...

Right?

[CheffoJeffo]

I've not commented on the yoke situation since I said I was done.   I simply responded to folks saying this is a secondary "hobby" business for him,  which it certainly may be... but that's not how he portrays his business on his website.  If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.

That is all.

OK, I get it.

You know, prOk's site looks like a 1st tier main business as well -- oi, prOk, where is my damned Cheyenne artwork ? It's been a damned year already. Oh wait, was I actually planning to create my own MultiExidy art instead of restoring Cheyenne using original art ? What, you expect me to be a paying customer before I jump around the boards and ---smurfette--- ? Oh, the inhumanity! [/sarcasm]

Come on Frizz, you and I both know what these guys go through ... your defense sounds a lot like the defense of folks who pick on Jeff about D2K -- just because you think you have a reason doesn't mean it is a good thing to do.

Don't try and play ignorant or somebody will step up and take advantage.

[FrizzleFried]

PMs sent... I'd rather take this discussion private rather than to ---meecrob--- up this already douchetastic thread.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

PMs sent... I'd rather take this discussion private rather than to ---meecrob--- up this already douchetastic thread.
 

Hey, it's not like I started this douchetastic thread ... you're just an amateur ... threads *I* start usually end up in PH.

 

 

[MameMaster!]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 

...it was an interview with Dave about his quest to create the perfect reproduction. Not a review of the yoke you silly boy. 

[FrizzleFried]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 

...it was an interview with Dave about his quest to create the perfect reproduction. Not a review of the yoke you silly boy. 

Perhaps you can make it a series now?   

[Havok]

 If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.   I mean that facility pictured on his site has to cost some pretty decent dough... and employees earn a paycheck.  I assume these are the same employees that are wiring up the yokes... getting hand cramps,  etc...

Right?

Ram Controls is a side business out of his business, but there's no point in not making the side business look good too. Technically, all his claims are true on the website (as far as I know), it's just that those employees get a paycheck with a different company logo on them. As far as deadlines not being met - crap happens, and they aren't always met; just look at the New York State budget deadline for one!

[prOk]

Havoc has it right.. Ram Controls is just a nights and evenings type biz for David where he goes out into his own shop and makes stuff, like quiet time from the real business that is stressful if that makes sense.  Think of it this way, yes he has engineers and machines, but if he had to pay his regular staff their regular wage to make miniscule runs of stuff like springs we could never afford those springs.  I'm sure he made ram controls a business for the same reasons I did.. not to look all corporate, but to keep the taxes and finances straight and well, be legal about it.

And cheffojeffo, you're so right about the Cheyenne art.  Been way too long, but at the same time just too complex to deal with for a while so it had no choice but to be put aside until I could get it dealt with.  Thankfully, the hard part is done and the artwork is now in thisoldgame's hands for printing so that project will FINALLY see the light of day    I'm just glad nobody's spent 10 pages of bashing on a message board about me over it   I know it's been a while, but hey, when the question is real job and real money to pay for my home or monkey around with some arcade art to meet some deadline i'll pay for my home every time and I hope you all think the same way.   If it's my family or my games, the games are history.

Even though Cheyenne is running way, way behind from what I actually wanted I did manage to deliver a bunch of neat things   Sometimes things that just randomly happen do indeed get in the way, but more often than not they eventually get done and then some.

Anyway, back to hopefully bringing out more of the positives of the hobby instead of pecking away at the negatives.

[CheffoJeffo]

To be clear, I was trying to be sarcastic .. I don't have an actual beef over the Cheyenne artwork.

I'm thrilled that someone cared enough to put the time into it that you and Rich have, even though I am thinking of creating original artwork for the 440 multi instead of restoring it back as Cheyenne (but i may change my mind ... again ... who knows).

Take care of the family ... those cabinets aren't going anywhere.

 

[mytymaus007]

WOW That would of been awsome if yu did a ZEBRA Theme but a caw Mooo

[Deadly]

Take care of the family ... those cabinets aren't going anywhere.

This pretty much sums it all up. Bravo CJ