*Ping* Dave - RAM Controls

[FrizzleFried]

LIMITED TIME PRE ORDER IS NOW OPEN.  REGULAR PRICE $260, PREORDER PRICE $235
PAYMENT MUST BE PAID IN ADVANCE & ORDER WILL BE FILLED BY OCTOBER 30, 2009

Please oh please oh please Dave... PLEASE tell me you have shipped everyone that has pre-paid their yokes today?

(man.... I am SOOOO hoping Dave comes in sayin' "YUP...SHIPPED"... he seems like such a nice guy...)

[Ummon]

Yeah, would be good. Also notice the USB dongle is available for pre-order....

[Bender]

Please oh please oh please Dave... PLEASE tell me you have shipped everyone that has pre-paid their yokes today?

(man.... I am SOOOO hoping Dave comes in sayin' "YUP...SHIPPED"... he seems like such a nice guy...)

I was thinking the exact same thing

[Havok]

Looks like they're going out Monday or Tuesday - and I'm first!

 

[Breaker]

Confirmed!

Just received an email from Dave confirming my address and advising that the first reproduction yokes will be going out
this week as promised.

I know it will have been worth the wait!

Thanks Dave!
Breaker

[ChadTower]

I'd like to see the Major Havoc CPs that were preordered go out... or at least the supposedly completed MH roller controller that he offered along with the CP preorder. 

[crashwg]

I'd like to see the Major Havoc CPs that were preordered go out... or at least the supposedly completed MH roller controller that he offered along with the CP preorder. 

If there's any question that the Major Havoc Roller is complete, I can confirm that it in fact is.  I bought one from Dave a while back.  I've never actually gotten around to using it but mechanically it's pretty awesome and hopefully some day I'll have a dedicated MH (repro or otherwise) that I can put it in.

[mytymaus007]

Keep   us updated on the yokes wanna get one so bad have CP ready to mount one

[Ummon]

Yeah, I thought the MH controllers were spoken about moons ago.

[ChadTower]

If there's any question that the Major Havoc Roller is complete, I can confirm that it in fact is.  I bought one from Dave a while back.  I've never actually gotten around to using it but mechanically it's pretty awesome and hopefully some day I'll have a dedicated MH (repro or otherwise) that I can put it in.

Cool, so at least that part is a nonissue.  The presale offer for this package listed 45 days MAX to completion time (his words).  That was in June.  He hasn't responded to messages on the topic.

[FrizzleFried]

Anyone receive their yokes yet? 

[mytymaus007]

last I heard Dave was testing them with MAME before he sends them out So where are they Dave!!!!!! Sick of playing star wars with my flight stick need the real thing!!!!!!!!

[Breaker]

Nothing so far...Havok?

Breaker.

[Havok]

Nothing yet...

[XtraSmiley]

I got my MH roller a looooooong time ago, but I never order anything from Dave that is not done.  Great guy, great products, but lousy deadline meeting.

Regardless, I'm going to order that SW yoke as soon as it's done!

[Daviea]

Stay tuned guys.  I'm working out some last minute production issues with the reproduction controllers then the first few go out to the very first pre-orders so I can get some real feedback.  I've also been spending some time testing out the USB adapter as well - couple of small issues to work out, but it's only firmware so it will be relatively easy to overcome.  Almost there.

Dave

[mytymaus007]

Hi Dave dont worry about the usb adapters. Most people here will not need them ts more important just to get the controller ready to buy and second usb. Most of us can do the hook up by our selves. Hope im speaking for most of us. Let Dave know!!!!

[FrizzleFried]

Sorry Dave...

Didn't want to... really... but man... I call ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  You take more pre-order dough even though you said yourself you'd NEVER do that again and give yet ANOTHER deadline and don't meet it?   ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  There really isn't any other word for it.

[Daviea]

Hey Friz,

Thanks for the input.  Very helpful, indeed.  I think you just like a good roasting at the expense of anyone else.  With the cooler temps, this will surely warm things up. :-)

Razz me if you will, but I'm the dude taking this project on (nobody else) so I'll get the last word when these go out.

Dave

[FrizzleFried]

It would be nice if you just didn't ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- us for once...  but yeah,  I'm the trouble maker.  During our PM's over at KLOV I told you I'd give you a break on the SW yoke until 10/30.... and I did,  didn't I?   Once 10/30 came and went and STILL nothing... well,  I dunno what to say.

[mytymaus007]

NOV. 14 do  you know where your yokes are

[FrizzleFried]

NOV. 14 do  you know where your yokes are

Better watch out... you may be labeled a troublemaker...


I mean Dave gives away free ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- all the time.  Jus' sayin'...

[mytymaus007]

i was jus askin caus black friday is comin and i wanted spend my last $300 on a yoke for myself other wise ill wait on line 4am at best buy to get some deals. Rather be playin with my yoke

[JustMichael]

Well it has been 2 weeks since the last "supposed" shipping date and I see no update on the yoke's status.  I just hope he didn't charge you guys for the product and didn't ship it...

[RayB]

mehhhhhhh

[mytymaus007]

Hey Dave how we looking on the star wars yoke's really need one before Christmas , do you think youll have them done.Also when you finish them will you take off the pre-orders label off your website and make the project Finished because i know some other people who want them for there Cab's

[Havok]

Nothing yet, and the pre-order price is gone. I'm sure we will get these, just not sure when. Dave is not so good with deadlines, but he has come through in the past.

 

[RayB]

Maybe Dave needs to take a day off the day job and dedicate it entirely to these? (sticking my nose in where it don't belong)

[Ummon]

One thing is for sure. Missing the pre-christmas rush is going to look - and be - bad.

[FrizzleFried]

...but he gives away free stuff... 

[Xiaou2]

David has already made & released one incredible Repo...
 Worst of the personal drek removed by saint
 
 He has told anyone who wishes a refund, that they can claim it... and anyone
who has asked, has gotten it back Afaik.

 He appears to be a Perfectionist, a sickness I can relate to.  But he also may
be trying to ready as many things as possible, so that the business can actually
be self sustaining. (unless he just has a case of ADD)

 Also, due to unexpected costs, he may have to raise the price of the SW repo...
thus would rather everyone did ask for a refund.

 I await your Repo's, so you can show David up on how its done.

[ammitz]

Dave has a blog about the yoke. http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

I'll just copy the latest entries in here:

10/29/09 - I know I'm going to take some flak for this, but it looks like we're going to have to push back the release date a little bit.  We're all but finished, but this problem with the wiring is serious enough that I want to make sure it's done correctly.  I'm working quickly to overcome the issue and get these 99% completed controllers out the door.  Everyone, just hold on a little longer.  Nobody in the history of reproduction work has ever tackled the Star Wars yoke controller like I have and all of my hard work (although, it's taken far too long) is going to net a perfect replacement controller in the very near future.  Sit tight!!

11/05/09 - Alright, I've got a solid plan in motion.  I've already ordered a few sets of the special wire strippers and crimpers to speed things along.  The wire strippers are custom designed for this exact wire type (since it's a custom wire in the first place) which will cut the jacket off without damaging the wires inside.  The crimper is actually a high-end Amp-O-Lectric (Model G) made to automate wire crimping to some degree.  These run $15K new, but we found a good deal on a used one which we're getting in trade (no cash!).  Anyhow, we should have the device in our hands shortly.  I've also got a few contract workers prepped and ready to go when all of the equipment is in so we can pump these controllers out quickly.

11/13/09 - We received the special custom made wire strippers today, so we started the process of prepping the cabling for the controllers.  We're still awaiting the delivery of the Amp-O-Lectric crimping machine, but we're prepping for it's arrival in the meantime.

11/14/09 - The controller project is finally coming to a close.  I know I've said this before, but I see nothing that's standing in the way of getting this project completed now, except for the slow assembly time (waiting on the Amp-O-Lectric crimper).  We have all of the parts necessary to build the controllers, the parts are finished (painted/powdercoated) without issue and we worked out all the bugs with the wiring process itself - just need to get that last tool in.  It's only a matter of time before we have these controllers released to market.  As planned before, we're going to release a few at a time until all of the pre-orders are taken care of and then we'll move into full sales.

[mytymaus007]

  Sounds good but it doesnt seem like it will be ready for christmas. Ill guess i have to by a Wii or a blow up doll to hold me over

[FrizzleFried]

David has already made & released one incredible Repo...
 Worst of the personal drek removed by saint
 
 He has told anyone who wishes a refund, that they can claim it... and anyone
who has asked, has gotten it back Afaik.

 He appears to be a Perfectionist, a sickness I can relate to.  But he also may
be trying to ready as many things as possible, so that the business can actually
be self sustaining. (unless he just has a case of ADD)

 Also, due to unexpected costs, he may have to raise the price of the SW repo...
thus would rather everyone did ask for a refund.

 I await your Repo's, so you can show David up on how its done.

(A) It's REPRO, genius.  You know... as in REPRODUCTION... not REPOSSESSION.

(B) Did you donate to the high speed internet for Ken drive?   Not sure if you did... I didn't pay attention to who did and who didn't.

(C) If creating stuff for the community is all that is necessary for a persons rep to be elevated to you,  I bet you must really admire Christian at SlikStick, huh?  David Foley must be be high on your list too, eh?  I guess honestly and integrity are meaningless to you?  Oh wait... I suppose "free ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---" also adds points in your book?  I see...I see...

 Worst of the personal drek removed by saint

[RayB]

There is such a thing as over-engineering things. It happens all the time with engineers (especialy OCD types) and it takes a good manager or business person to reign them back in to reasonable decisions about X Y or Z. In this case... special wiring? There's maybe 10 collectors on the planet who will care about such meticulousness in a repro. The other 200 people just want something reasonably good and will mostly be bolting it to some MAME monstrosity. So why be so meticulous when the end product is going to get that kind of use?

(again, sticking my opinion where it aint needed  )

[FrizzleFried]

I'm it's more of a convenient "reason" why yet another deadline (it's been 3 years now) has come and gone.  But what do I know.... and no one listens to me anyway (see under my name to the left).  But whatever... as long as the guy keeps handing out free crap,  people will come to his defense.   I'm the bad guy for pointing out his douchebaggery... but that's OK... I've been the bad guy before... I am used to it.

Now don't get me wrong... Dave seems like the nicest guy in the world... but that and a buck will buy you a double cheeseburger at Micky-D's.

Go back through the guys statements on this project and you'll find more BS than I care to recant.  I mean at one time all that was holding the project up was the powder-coat.  That's it.  It was 99% complete over a year ago.  Whatever.  


EDIT: BTW - I am in an especially ornery mood todays as (A) The Steelers lost to the lowly Chiefs... (B) San Diego is beating the piss out of Denver... and (C) New England looks like they'll win unless they choke bigtime (not a first,  but likely not to happen).

[fatfingers]

I believe it's a McDouble.

 

[Daviea]

Friz,

Your position on my "douchebaggery" really is pointless.  I've gone to great expense to get these yokes made and all the rib poking you direct at me isn't going to make the project come to a close any more quickly.  The yoke project WILL come to a close and the controller will be a *perfect* reproduction part.  Perhaps there's a little OCD and over-engineering in the mix, but my reputation for making quality parts is far more important to me than anything else.  Sure, I've blown through the latest completion date but with good reason.  You do bring up some good points, but like I said before, it's pointless.  Enjoy your spotlight.  Trying to take down the only guy on the planet who'll EVER make these yoke controllers available is a worthy challenge, eh?  

In my eyes, unless you've either prepaid for a yoke or have at the very least contributed your own money into making the hobby better for all of us, your ball busting carries little weight with me.  It's a mild annoyance at worst, but I have to admit that I can see the humor in many of your comments so it usually doesn't phase me in the least.  I understand that you think I'm a --cream-filled twinkie-- (that might be the first time anyone has called me that), but I really don't see the reasoning behind why you even care.  Of course, that's assuming there's some other agenda aside from just having an opportunity of creating a little drama on the forum. :-)

Note:  If you have contributed to this hobby in some way, please accept my apologies for not being aware of said contribution.  Honestly, I don't know of a single project you've been involved with, but that doesn't mean you haven't done anything productive.

I have always maintained that if anyone who has a pre-order cannot or does not want to wait any longer is free to get a full refund at any time.  I'm not holding their money hostage.  The large majority of the pre-orders have held on for the long haul and I appreciate their patience with my slow-going progress.  I can only assume that this patience they afford me is a result of their trust that I will see this project through to the end and provide them with a quality reproduction controller.  I can also assume that this trust is based on the fact that I have created MANY reproduction parts in the past, all of which have withstood critical scrutiny with a superior passing grade.  That little bit of trust goes a long way with me in believing that what I am doing is a worthwhile endeavor and, more importantly, why I continue to dump money out of my own pocket to make sure every last detail of this controller is perfect.  I mean absolutely disgustingly perfect. LOL

Really, I am sorry about the delays, everyone.  I am working my rear-end off to make these available ASAP (ie: BEFORE Christmas!!).  What good comes from distracting my work by defending myself here?  Anyone who contacts me directly will get an answer to their questions about this project or they can just go read the project blog which I've been trying to keep updated as much as possible.  It's not like I'm not around or have disappeared with pre-pay money.  

I really hope this doesn't turn into another pile-on-dave thread.  It's definitely leaning in that direction with Friz spearheading it.  If you guys don't like the delays, why not offer to help me in some way?  As unfortunate as it may be, poking at me won't make me work any harder.  Though, I don't mind the attention.  :-)

Anyhow, all of that said, everyone keep watching the forums.  I'll have an official posting about the completion of this project shortly.  I know I blew right past the last completion date, but it's all for good reason.  You'll see when you have closeup pics to drool over. :-)

Dave

I'm it's more of a convenient "reason" why yet another deadline (it's been 3 years now) has come and gone.  But what do I know.... and no one listens to me anyway (see under my name to the left).  But whatever... as long as the guy keeps handing out free crap,  people will come to his defense.   I'm the bad guy for pointing out his douchebaggery... but that's OK... I've been the bad guy before... I am used to it.

Now don't get me wrong... Dave seems like the nicest guy in the world... but that and a buck will buy you a double cheeseburger at Micky-D's.

Go back through the guys statements on this project and you'll find more BS than I care to recant.  I mean at one time all that was holding the project up was the powder-coat.  That's it.  It was 99% complete over a year ago.  Whatever.  


EDIT: BTW - I am in an especially ornery mood todays as (A) The Steelers lost to the lowly Chiefs... (B) San Diego is beating the piss out of Denver... and (C) New England looks like they'll win unless they choke bigtime (not a first,  but likely not to happen).

[Bender]

My only issue is that Dave took pre-orders way back when had a huge hassle with it, then did it again
I wish he had learned from his mistake the first time around

But, the truth is after they do come out, and I have no doubt that they will rock, no one will care about any of this

that's the upside to taking the time to make a great product

[XtraSmiley]

Well I love Dave's products, they have all been top notch.  I'll get a yoke, but I didn't prepay.  If you prepaid, I just don't see why.  Usually people prepay so the builder gets enough money to start a project or to see if there is enough interest to make something.  Dave seems like he would repro these if he had 1 prepay or 100. 

Those of you who prepaid are getting something extra (as Dave usually throws in free items or bonus) so really, what do you have to lose?  I mean, if you don't want to wait, just get your money back right?

If you can do it quicker or better, please do, and you'll have my money for a yoke.  Until then, I'll wait for Dave to get done.

[mytymaus007]

  Dave your the man Ill be waiting for your next post!!! and of course the completion date 

[Xiaou2]

(A) It's REPRO, genius.  You know... as in REPRODUCTION... not REPOSSESSION.

 You think a Repo is easy then?  Do you even know how much money it takes
for a small run of repo's of lesser complexity assemblies?  Its also not as simple as
making 2 phone calls and assembling parts.  Obviously, if you had an ounce of brain
tissue, you would realize your rants only make you look more and more
like the brown clown you really are.

(B) Did you donate to the high speed internet for Ken drive?   Not sure if you did... I didn't pay attention to who did and who didn't.

 Dont know Ken.  Nor would I EVER send money to a clown like you. Who knows
how much money you are pocketing on the side from your venture.  I surely
wouldnt put it past you.   Id trust David with my money any day of the
week over you.

 I have a hard enough time keeping my own internet on, let alone supporting anothers.

 However, I have and do occasionally make donations to the Mame PCB fund. 
To me, its a much more worthy use of my hard earned cash.

 If you feel otherwise, thats your prerogative.
 

(C) If creating stuff for the community is all that is necessary for a persons rep to be elevated to you,  I bet you must really admire Christian at SlikStick, huh? 

 David has not Scrooged anyone out of any money...  unlike Christian.

David Foley must be be high on your list too, eh?

 David Foley is just as much a Tool as you.  But at least he had  'some'  value come
out of him..

  I guess honestly and integrity are meaningless to you?  Oh wait... I suppose "free ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---" also adds points in your book?  I see...I see...

 Actually, I live by Honesty & Integrity, and value them above all else.  Davids not
wronged anyone.  He merely has Disappointed people.  He is not, nor will ever be
the last person to disappoint someone due to delays.  I can list pages and pages
worth of promised release dates from countless companies.  I can also post
pages and pages of promised products which never made it to sale point.

 As David said, he is probably the Only person in this world who cares enough to
make a QUALITY reproduction Yoke.   

 To be honest, I have no idea if and how he will
make any money on the thing.  Arcade parts of this complexity and quality, were
made in unreal quantities, and single or double runs... to keep cost at low.  To do
a fraction of the original runs, will be Very expensive. (unless he is getting some
extremely good  'low-run'  deals somehow)

 Anyone else even trying to make a yoke, has made absolute crap which does
not compare in any way or form to the original.  No doubt, poor/less control, and
poor last-ability. (among other glaring problems)

(D) Still waiting for proof positive on those DEATH TRAINS you were so worried about... well?

 Still waiting for a Good explanation of 600 new (commissioned when bush took office)
"open field 'detention centers" with razor wire fencing, able to hold well over
20,000 each, almost all located off rail lines,  ...and they are now "manned".

 Maybe its for expedited eradication of virus laden humans?

 Maybe they are for making Arcade Repos?

 Worst of the personal drek removed by saint

[FrizzleFried]

Ya know something... I had a whole lot of stuff I typed out in response to the nutcase above,  but why bother.  Nuts is nuts.

You think a Repo is easy then?  Do you even know how much money it takes
for a small run of repo's of lesser complexity assemblies?

My only question is: Is your "R" button broken or are you just that dense?  It's REPRO...not REPO...

 Worst of the personal drek removed by saint

As for the rest of this crap... I'm done with it.  Good luck Dave... sorry to piss on your parade.  I'll not comment on the yoke any more.

[ChadTower]

I am losing faith now that there are multiple preordered products that are past stated delivery dates.  Can't lie about that.

[Deadly]

I am losing faith now that there are multiple preordered products that are past stated delivery dates.  Can't lie about that.

I've been talking with Dave for ~2 years now. I agree and yes ..... David also agrees that he made a mistake. He acknowledges his publicly. Taking pre-orders again ... well let's think about this for a moment. He is right at the finish line on these. Why wouldn't he open the order lines? If it were my business you can bet your ass I'd be doing the same thing. Do you guys think he has a whole assembly line to mass produce? You take pre-orders in order to dedicate your time where it needs to be. This has to be done and is exactly what he's doing.
Do you think this is the only project he has going on? How many other people are willing to take this ---Censored by saint--- on? Yes, I am a David "fanboi". He is generous and is doing this community a HUGE ---Censored by saint--- favor and what does he ask for in return? Feedback for giving away free product. Jeezus David how DARE you ASK for so little?
These threads sicken me. It is unfair and unjust to treat David like this. Why don;t we all start dog piling on people like:
 Widel (because he can't keep up with the demand)
Spaeth (Because he can't keep up on the demand)

Oh yes let's bit the hand that feeds us. GREAT IDEA!

And lastly - some of you busting Davids balls when you don't even have a Star Wars to put the freaking yoke onto.

FFS - back the F off and let the man breathe. It's  ---Censored by saint--- like this that makes these people dissapear.
"Do you think David doesn;t have a family of his own to tend to?"

Frizz - you're a better person than this ... seriously knock it off.

[ChadTower]

I've been talking with Dave for ~2 years now. I agree and yes ..... David also agrees that he made a mistake. He acknowledges his publicly. Taking pre-orders again ... well let's think about this for a moment. He is right at the finish line on these. Why wouldn't he open the order lines?

I'm talking about the Major Havoc control panels for which he accepted preorders, gave a stated delivery date, and did not deliver them.  This year.

[Namco]

I've been optimistically watching the progress of this project for longer than I can remember. We all want to see this part in production and we all have fond memories of this yoke years ago playing Star Wars/ESB/Stun Runner/etc. I honestly feel really happy every time I hear that the product is 99% ready to ship, and I honestly feel down and crappy every time I see another delay. This has happened numerous times and I really feel resentment about it now.

It's also amazing how Frizz has gone from nay-saying lunatic to conscientious objector to heroic whistleblower (no offense Frizz:D )

I'm at the point now where I don't care either way if this ever gets produced, produced by Christmas, or melted down to make redemption game parts. I probably was never going to buy one anyway but I just wish that Dave would stop toying with our emotions like this. I don't need to be reminded that Dave is "the only guy on the planet who'll EVER make these yoke controllers available". Yeah, thanks, thanks for that, really Dave. Like we all need more reminders of how our favorite hobby is dead. Just remember most of us are on this forum trying to recapture those fond memories that are exploited here.

personal dig removed by saint

[mytymaus007]

Go Dave

[saint]

Meh. They'll get here when they get here. No one's been refused a refund who pre-ordered. People cussing Dave out are just shooting the industry in the foot, if not themselves.

[fatfingers]

Meh. They'll get here when they get here. No one's been refused a refund who pre-ordered. People cussing Dave out are just shooting the industry in the foot, if not themselves.

 

[Daviea]

Guys, guys....

I underestimated (more than once) the complexity of the Star Wars yoke reproduction project.  On the surface, it looked pretty cut and dry, but there were some fabrication processes I was completely unfamiliar with.  Obviously, that in itself added delays.  Other delays were caused by the necessity to ensure that this was a dead-on reproduction.  Further delays were caused by the necessity for a QUALITY product.  These delays were simply unavoidable.  Yes, I'm horrible at estimating release dates, apparently.  While I can imagine peoples feelings being twisted over this, I think some of you might be taking this a little too seriously.  After all, this is a HOBBY for us and nothing I've said or done has been out of malice or ill intent.  Hey, I want this to be fun for all of us!  If I've somehow inadvertently ruined the fun for some of you, please accept my apologies.

Just imagine.....if I had taken the quick way out and cut corners, this thread would be a dave-bashing pile-on about poor quality.  And there would be no defense in that situation.  I'd much rather push the date back...and back again... if it means a quality product.  Some of you act like pushing release dates back is something completely unheard of and isolated to me alone.  What I'm making isn't vaporware or some elaborate hoax, it's a quality reproduction part.  Quality takes time and money, both of which I have invested heavily.  And I would be willing to bet that deep down, you all want QUALITY.  Good, that's what I like to hear!

You can read the Star Wars Yoke SAGA on my BLOG which pretty much details every single hiccup I've encountered during the life of this reproduction project.  This process is not as simple as it may appear to someone on the outside.  I won't bother trying to explain it -- if you can't see this from the BLOG alone, then there's nothing I could ever say that will make you understand.  I'm in this because *I* love the hobby and want to extend it's life as much as possible.  The fact remains that I am the only one who will make this a reality for us to enjoy.....and that's the harsh truth, like it or lump it.

So, in the end, as sorry as I am about this, the project delays are just a fact of life which must be dealt with.  How people decide to deal with these delays has shown me, among other things, the character and integrity of certain people among our community.  I'm glad to say that my observations in this regard have been mostly promising.

Again, stay tuned for an official posting about the final release of the Star Wars reproduction yoke.

Dave

[saint]

Trimmed to here arbitrarily as the easiest way to restore this thread, don't take it personally if your comment got whacked. If it was important please repost.

But please, for the love of ... well... me, would some of you please read the rules on how to treat one another even if you disagree?

[Aceldamor]

Trimmed to here arbitrarily as the easiest way to restore this thread, don't take it personally if your comment got whacked. If it was important please repost.

But please, for the love of ... well... me, would some of you please read the rules on how to treat one another even if you disagree?

I didn't think my post was that bad actually....

[TheShanMan]

Dave's problem is he enjoys this so much that he can't help but talk about it and take some joy in the excitement it generates even in the early stages of the product. Other vendors like to keep projects close to the vest until released. Perhaps the latter approach is better, but I can't blame him for taking the former.

I've gone on record several times saying "bravo" to Dave for all he's done and is doing and I'll do it again. I agree wholeheartedly with saint's comments about shooting in the foot. I consider Friz to be a friend but I disagree wholeheartedly with him on this. I can understand the frustration (of those who have preordered or are anxious to order once released), but I think the ball busting is over the line and produces absolutely zero benefit (so why do it?).

Keep up the good work Dave! Don't let the vocal few haters get you down!

[ChadTower]

I just don't see how that explanation extends out to blank control panels.  I'd like to receive the roller controller ahead of that at this point.  They were sold as a package with the CP being a preorder but there was no mention of the roller not being in hand already.

PM sent on shipping the roller controller separately. 

[Namco]

Dave's problem is he enjoys this so much that he can't help but talk about it and take some joy in the excitement it generates even in the early stages of the product. Other vendors like to keep projects close to the vest until released. Perhaps the latter approach is better, but I can't blame him for taking the former.

I've gone on record several times saying "bravo" to Dave for all he's done and is doing and I'll do it again. I agree wholeheartedly with saint's comments about shooting in the foot. I consider Friz to be a friend but I disagree wholeheartedly with him on this. I can understand the frustration (of those who have preordered or are anxious to order once released), but I think the ball busting is over the line and produces absolutely zero benefit (so why do it?).

Keep up the good work Dave! Don't let the vocal few haters get you down!

There is a place in this world for the whistleblower if you work for a company that adheres to Sarbanes-Oxley or have taken an accounting class in the last few years, you know this all too well already probably. Nobody has been defrauded and Dave has done nothing wrong, but nonetheless consumer criticism in regard to market practices of any kind is valid ("ball-busting" or otherwise) and should be considered objectively.

My previous post about my disappointment set aside, I do love the work Dave is working toward, reproducing a piece of history (controls, t-molding, documentation, etc). Dave's open communication with the community is top-notch but if I do have a couple words of advice it would be to manage expectations a little better and adopt a Valve Software policy of "it will be done when it's released" and refrain from so proactively advertising products that have not yet been released.

[ChadTower]

IMO, once you start accepting preorders, especially preorders of substantial amounts of money, and put up a full retail website you are no longer a hobbyist.  You're a business.  You just can't present yourself as a retail business with all of a retailer's advantages but then throw your hands up and claim hobbyist every time a problem presents itself.  That approach is the root cause of this whole mess with RAM Controls.  He presents himself as a retailer but has no interest in being accountable like one. 

The whole opinion split comes down to whether or not a given person considers RAM Controls a business.  He looks like a business, he quacks like a business, but he sure doesn't act like one.

[MaximRecoil]

He presents himself as a retailer but has no interest in being accountable like one.

Except, he is held accountable in the only area that counts; i.e., money. He hasn't skipped town with anyone's money. Everyone who has given him preorder money has done so voluntarily and can have it back at any time. The only person who could possibly have a legitimate complaint against Dave is the guy who gave him preorder money and can't get it back. Who is that guy? As far as I know, he doesn't exist.

[ChadTower]

Except, he is held accountable in the only area that counts; i.e., money. He hasn't skipped town with anyone's money. Everyone who has given him preorder money has done so voluntarily and can have it back at any time. The only person who could possibly have a legitimate complaint against Dave is the guy who gave him preorder money and can't get it back. Who is that guy? As far as I know, he doesn't exist.

We have a fundamental disagreement when you say that the only area that counts is money.

Again it comes down to accountability.  Accountability to his word is just as important as accountability to a dollar if he is a business.

[saint]

Meh Chad. Three things concern me when doing business with vendors in this hobby.

1. Are they new or do they have a history? Dave has a history of making and selling products.
2. Have they ripped anyone off? Answer here is no as far as I know.
3. Is their product shoddy? No, quite the contrary as far as I understand.

[ChadTower]

Meh Chad. Three things concern me when doing business with vendors in this hobby.

1. Are they new or do they have a history? Dave has a history of making and selling products.
2. Have they ripped anyone off? Answer here is no as far as I know.
3. Is their product shoddy? No, quite the contrary as far as I understand.

If he stops taking preorders the whole conversation goes bye-bye.  It only pops up because he keeps taking preorders with definite completion dates.  That moves the whole process away from those black and white questions and into the area of basic integrity.  My personal opinion is that his intentions are good but his actions border on those of a scammer way too closely for comfort.  Take away that aspect of it, the appearance of purchases without delivery, and nobody has any problem with RAM Controls.

[CheffoJeffo]

Meh Chad. Three things concern me when doing business with vendors in this hobby.

1. Are they new or do they have a history? Dave has a history of making and selling products.
2. Have they ripped anyone off? Answer here is no as far as I know.
3. Is their product shoddy? No, quite the contrary as far as I understand.

+1

I consider Frizz a friend and, like TheShanMan, disagree with him regarding David. I am a fan and like a lot of the stuff that David has done (including the giveaways, even though I haven't been able to capitalize), although he definitely painted a big, bright bullseye on his back with the latest "dropdead deadline".

I also disagree with David and Xiaou's assessment of Frizz -- he's a good guy and I am totally grateful to him for spearheading the "High Speed for Ken" initiatives (if you can't see how getting Ken decent Net access is good for the hobby, then you are missing something important).

 

[saint]

I also disagree with David and Xiaou's assessment of Frizz -- he's a good guy and I am totally grateful to him for spearheading the "High Speed for Ken" initiatives (if you can't see how getting Ken decent Net access is good for the hobby, then you are missing something important).

 

+1.

Actually, David, Xiaou2, and Frizz have all contributed to the hobby.

[ChadTower]

...he definitely painted a big, bright bullseye on his back with the latest "dropdead deadline".

Multiple dropped deadlines.  One of them on a new product with new preorders.  You guys keep glossing over the fact that the behavior is not just continuing.  It is expanding.

To his credit, I PMed him today saying I would like the bundled roller controller shipped now vs when the MH CP becomes available as an act of faith.  He replied within a couple of hours with a tracking number.  The guy is clearly not a scammer.  I just wish he'd stop making himself look like one.

[FrizzleFried]

Just to be clear - I've never said Dave wasn't a good guy... on the contrary... I've said he seems like one of the nicest guys around.


EDIT: Also... Dave and I exchanged a number of PM's a few months ago... where I agreed to get off his back until October 30th... and I did (didn't I Dave?).   I also told him at the time that if 10/30 came and went,  I'd be jumping his ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---,  at which time he agreed that it would be warranted (didn't you Dave?)...

[MaximRecoil]

We have a fundamental disagreement when you say that the only area that counts is money.

Again it comes down to accountability.  Accountability to his word is just as important as accountability to a dollar if he is a business.

But how could that be anyone's problem but his own? If people don't believe a word he says, then his business may suffer, but that is his business. The only thing that matters with regard to having a legitimate complaint against him is money. As long as no one is being screwed out of money, then no one has a legitimate complaint against him.

[MaximRecoil]

Just to be clear - I've never said Dave wasn't a good guy... on the contrary... I've said he seems like one of the nicest guys around.

However, saying he is a nice guy is at odds with referring to his actions as "douchebaggery", his statements as "BS", and his products as "crap" in the same post:

But whatever... as long as the guy keeps handing out free crap,  people will come to his defense.   I'm the bad guy for pointing out his douchebaggery... but that's OK... I've been the bad guy before... I am used to it.

Now don't get me wrong... Dave seems like the nicest guy in the world... but that and a buck will buy you a double cheeseburger at Micky-D's.

Go back through the guys statements on this project and you'll find more BS than I care to recant.

[Namco]

Just to be clear - I've never said Dave wasn't a good guy... on the contrary... I've said he seems like one of the nicest guys around.

However, saying he is a nice guy is at odds with referring to his actions as "douchebaggery", his statements as "BS", and his products as "crap" in the same post:

But whatever... as long as the guy keeps handing out free crap,  people will come to his defense.   I'm the bad guy for pointing out his douchebaggery... but that's OK... I've been the bad guy before... I am used to it.

Now don't get me wrong... Dave seems like the nicest guy in the world... but that and a buck will buy you a double cheeseburger at Micky-D's.

Go back through the guys statements on this project and you'll find more BS than I care to recant.

Don't worry MaximRecoil, Frizz will just recant those statements. 

[ChadTower]

But how could that be anyone's problem but his own? If people don't believe a word he says, then his business may suffer, but that is his business. The only thing that matters with regard to having a legitimate complaint against him is money. As long as no one is being screwed out of money, then no one has a legitimate complaint against him.

Opportunity Cost is a very legitimate business complaint.  In this scenario that has to be modified to more of a Hobby Opportunity Cost rather than monetary but it still does apply.  Broken promises do damage to both parties.

[CheffoJeffo]

Is the world coming to an end ? saint, maxim, xiaou and I are on the same side of an argument and Chad and Frizz are on the other side ?

In any aspect of this hobby, when you rely on somebody else, you are taking your chances on being disappointed and having timelines extended.

Everybody has a story about having a game or PCB sitting in somebody else's shop waiting for repair ... in some cases for as long as David is "overdue" with his projects. And, in those cases, the other person actually has possession of your property.

Which is worse ?  

I'm not one for signing up for pre-orders, but there are a few folks that I would send deposits / pre-order money to and David would be included in that list (if any of his projects intersected with mine).

[KonkeyKong]

Anybody take a look at Dave's order section lately?  Somebody's been rather busy it appears.  Can't speak for the rest of ya's, but that much multi-tasking plus the level of perfection being sought would literally blow my brain clean outta my skull.

[FrizzleFried]

Just to be clear - I've never said Dave wasn't a good guy... on the contrary... I've said he seems like one of the nicest guys around.

However, saying he is a nice guy is at odds with referring to his actions as "douchebaggery", his statements as "BS", and his products as "crap" in the same post:

But whatever... as long as the guy keeps handing out free crap,  people will come to his defense.   I'm the bad guy for pointing out his douchebaggery... but that's OK... I've been the bad guy before... I am used to it.

Now don't get me wrong... Dave seems like the nicest guy in the world... but that and a buck will buy you a double cheeseburger at Micky-D's.

Go back through the guys statements on this project and you'll find more BS than I care to recant.

Hold on a second... I guess you're not too familiar with the English language because "free crap" is a common saying for "free stuff".  I've never ONCE said any of his completed projects were "crap" as in sub-par.  Thank you.

I stand by my other statements though.  You can be a nice guy and a BS artist....  and yes,  it's "douchebaggery" to continuously break stated deadlines,  especially when folks have pre-ordered and possibly planned projects around these stated deadlines.

[Daviea]

Hey Guys,

This has actually turned into an interesting conversation now.  I'm seeing some legitimate criticism I can work from.

First of all, as much as I'd like to, I simply cannot control delays.  I have every intention of meeting my drop dead dates, but "issues" never fail to surface which ultimately cause me to push those dates back.  Perhaps there's something to the "it'll be ready when it's ready" idea that someone else proposed.  I admit that much of this is of my own doing because I do try to commit to release dates.  I've been flip flopping on that idea, but I'm leaning towards moving away from using pre-orders if it will reduce the amount of backlash I receive.  I really feel that if the pre-orders and drop dead release dates were a thing of the past, people might come up with something else to complain about.  I have to wonder if it's even possible to please "most" of the people.  I was hoping that my quality parts and stellar personality would be enough.  Perhaps not...  I'm going to mull this over.  Then there's the fact that I am working on SO many project simultaneously - that in itself adds a whole different level of difficulty none of you would ever comprehend do to the sheer magnitude.  I think that if any of the naysayers here were to see the RAM Controls "operation" up close, they might change their tune to some degree.... then again, maybe not.  

Friz, you did warn me that come October 30th that if I didn't have the yoke ready, you'd blast me.  True to your word, you blasted me. :-)  Do I deserve it?  Well, in my opinion I'd have to say yes and no.  I'm trying to be fair and objective on this subject as I do see my faults which play into this.

Yes, because like Cheffo said, I painted a big bullseye on my back by stating a drop dead date and then skipping right past it yet again.  Like Chad said, a broken promise does make me look bad and can damage both parties involved.  My quest for perfection does cause delays that would otherwise not exist, but it's hard for me to qualify this one as a negative because people really dig my perfect reproduction parts.  However, for the sake of argument, I'll list this as a reason why I should take some heat since it did slow things down a bit.

No, because as much as I try to get these projects completed on time, there are things (mostly production processes) which come up that I never accounted for and have little control over.  I do take the blame because I did promise a date.  I'm not happy about it, but it is what it is.  I'm trying to cover for it by keeping in constant contact with everyone (hand-holding) while I finish this up.

Chad made a point about making myself out to look like a scammer.  I would agree with that statement IF I hadn't already released so many items into the community over and over again.  That alone appears to afford me a certain amount of slack which I very much appreciate.  You just have to see the bigger picture here, I guess.  I believe that the reason behind this comment is primarily due to the fact that a lot of people have been scammed in this hobby, myself included.  If there's something specific that I am doing that might make me LOOK like a scammer...something that I can control, I'll be happy to fix that issue.  I don't want to LOOK bad, afterall.  I'd like to believe that I'm a good guy with the best intentions for everyone involved.

A point has also been made about the difference between hobby and business.  I want to be clear on this point.  Yes, technically, RAM Controls is a business entity.  however, that said, it's a HOBBY business.  At year end, when everything is reconciled, the books show a clear loss.  Why is that?  Because I treat it exactly like a hobby.  I'm not in it to make money, I'm in it to create replacement parts for the community.  Having the business aspect helps me obtain excellent pricing on materials and having the website allows an easy means to release parts into the community.  Regardless of how it looks or how anyone might *think* I should run RAM Controls, the fact remains that I will always view and treat this as a hobby.  If I didn't, the prices would go way up, I wouldn't give anything away, I wouldn't take on any project which is risky in the least, etc.  So, having things run the way they are, I expect and plan to lose money in the process.  Just like any other hobby, I dump my own cash into it at an alarming rate just for the fun of it.  Yes, it's over the top but everyone already knows I am like that. :-)

The bottom line is that I make reproduction parts and I will continue to do so regardless of the obvious hiccups/delays and ensuing forum arguments.  I'll reconsider my position on pre-orders.  If the majority of you have a real problem with it, I will comply by removing my pre-order policy permanently.  As for release dates, I'm leaning toward not using them any longer.  I assume this would be a move in the right direction, no?

Thanks guys.  As always, I appreciate your support and kind words.  It's the occasional pat on the back that helps keep me focused on WHY I do this. :-)

Dave

[MaximRecoil]

Opportunity Cost is a very legitimate business complaint.  In this scenario that has to be modified to more of a Hobby Opportunity Cost rather than monetary but it still does apply.  Broken promises do damage to both parties.

You only have a dollar. Do you buy a $1 hot dog or a $1 notebook? If you buy the hot dog, the notebook is the "opportunity cost" (and vice versa); and no, you don't have a legitimate complaint against the hot dog vendor for costing you a notebook.

But they haven't gotten their SW yokes yet, right? It is irrelevant, because of the offer of the refund if anyone tires of waiting; so that's part of the deal that they bought into.  

BTW; "opportunity cost" is just a concept; it is not a real, tangible cost.

[MaximRecoil]

Hold on a second... I guess you're not too familiar with the English language because "free crap" is a common saying for "free stuff".  I've never ONCE said any of his completed projects were "crap" as in sub-par.  Thank you.

No, "free crap" is not a common saying for "free stuff". "Free stuff" is a common saying for "free stuff" and "free crap" is a common saying for "free crap". The word "crap" in "free crap" indicates worthlessness, while "free stuff" gives no indication of value/worth.

[Deadly]

Since we're using analogies, I see things as David does. I also see the other side.
Back in the day when I ran my own business "PC repair" I learned early on people do not care one iota why their computer was hosed. They couldn't understand no matter how I explained it to them that the original assesment ended up being something else and therefor their bill was more. The only thing they were interested in is getting back a working PC in the time frame I promised and for the amount I quoted. 

Hmmmmm - yes I do believe this is EXACTLY what you are up against.

People couldn't care less why you're behind so no matter how much you update the blog people generally won't care. They only care about getting what they were promised. After all, you are a business and they are the customer. I guess coming from the otherside of the fence than most other people makes it easier to turn a blind eye to it all. 

Keep going my man - you're almost at the finish line.

[FrizzleFried]

Hold on a second... I guess you're not too familiar with the English language because "free crap" is a common saying for "free stuff".  I've never ONCE said any of his completed projects were "crap" as in sub-par.  Thank you.

No, "free crap" is not a common saying for "free stuff". "Free stuff" is a common saying for "free stuff" and "free crap" is a common saying for "free crap". The word "crap" in "free crap" indicates worthlessness, while "free stuff" gives no indication of value/worth.

Not where I am from.   Free crap = Free sh!t (sorry to bypass the filter Saint...had to get the word across) = Free schwag = Free stuff.   If that's not a common saying where you are from,  sorry about that.  That was/is my intention and I am sure Dave (and likely the vast majority of the rest of the folks here) knew that.

Another example... "I gotta move my stuff..."  "I gotta move my crap..."  Both mean the very same thing...

CRAP: Miscellaneous or disorganized items.... (among other definitions)... in this case used as "miscellaneous items"...

Now,  lets not continue with the thread crapping about "crap".

[Daviea]

Friz,

I knew what you meant.  As much as you have a problem with me personally, I know that you don't have a problem with my stuff. 

Dave

Hold on a second... I guess you're not too familiar with the English language because "free crap" is a common saying for "free stuff".  I've never ONCE said any of his completed projects were "crap" as in sub-par.  Thank you.

No, "free crap" is not a common saying for "free stuff". "Free stuff" is a common saying for "free stuff" and "free crap" is a common saying for "free crap". The word "crap" in "free crap" indicates worthlessness, while "free stuff" gives no indication of value/worth.

Not where I am from.   Free crap = Free sh!t (sorry to bypass the filter Saint...had to get the word across) = Free schwag = Free stuff.   If that's not a common saying where you are from,  sorry about that.  That was/is my intention and I am sure Dave (and likely the vast majority of the rest of the folks here) knew that.

 

[Daviea]

Hey Deadly,

I think you know what I am up against.  I'll just keep plugging along.  

Though, I do see a couple of subjects in this entire thread that are things I could work on.  As long as I see some sort of response to my query on the subject, otherwise I will have to assume that I should keep doing things as I have.  

You mentioned something which made me realize that I forgot to mention cost control.  I've been trying to keep the cost of this SW yoke as close to my original price as possible, even though my cost has risen substantially do to many unforeseen issues.  Perhaps I should push the point, but I thought the fact that I was keeping the cost under control while dealing with all the issues was obvious.  Then again, does anyone really care?

Dave

Since we're using analogies, I see things as David does. I also see the other side.
Back in the day when I ran my own business "PC repair" I learned early on people do not care one iota why their computer was hosed. They couldn't understand no matter how I explained it to them that the original assesment ended up being something else and therefor their bill was more. The only thing they were interested in is getting back a working PC in the time frame I promised and for the amount I quoted.  

Hmmmmm - yes I do believe this is EXACTLY what you are up against.

People couldn't care less why you're behind so no matter how much you update the blog people generally won't care. They only care about getting what they were promised. After all, you are a business and they are the customer. I guess coming from the otherside of the fence than most other people makes it easier to turn a blind eye to it all.  

Keep going my man - you're almost at the finish line.

[FrizzleFried]

Friz,

I knew what you meant.  As much as you have a problem with me personally, I know that you don't have a problem with my stuff. 

Dave

Hold on a second... I guess you're not too familiar with the English language because "free crap" is a common saying for "free stuff".  I've never ONCE said any of his completed projects were "crap" as in sub-par.  Thank you.

No, "free crap" is not a common saying for "free stuff". "Free stuff" is a common saying for "free stuff" and "free crap" is a common saying for "free crap". The word "crap" in "free crap" indicates worthlessness, while "free stuff" gives no indication of value/worth.

Not where I am from.   Free crap = Free sh!t (sorry to bypass the filter Saint...had to get the word across) = Free schwag = Free stuff.   If that's not a common saying where you are from,  sorry about that.  That was/is my intention and I am sure Dave (and likely the vast majority of the rest of the folks here) knew that.

 

I don't have a problem with you personally... I have a problem with you professionally (well,  that's not the word really... but you get my drift).  And that problem is no more.  I don't care anymore.... at all.  You won't see me commenting on your yoke deadlines any longer.  I've given up.

[DillonFoulds]

www.woot.com gives away bags of crap all the time, and they aren't too shabby at all. Just random items they're had woots for that are left over, but not enough to run another woot on.

[TheShanMan]

I have to wonder if it's even possible to please "most" of the people.

Again, do you have any reason to believe that the very few who dog you represent a larger group? I really wonder if there are more than a handful who fall into the Friz/Chad camp. Those people want to attack at any opportunity, so I'd think we'd be hearing many more people chiming in if there really was a much larger group. I think you're doing just fine at pleasing "most" of the people.

People couldn't care less why you're behind so no matter how much you update the blog people generally won't care. They only care about getting what they were promised. After all, you are a business and they are the customer. I guess coming from the otherside of the fence than most other people makes it easier to turn a blind eye to it all.

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

[FrizzleFried]

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

Potential customers don't count now?  Not a very smart business frame of mind IMHO.

[RobotronNut]

... I admit that much of this is of my own doing because I do try to commit to release dates.  I've been flip flopping on that idea, but I'm leaning towards moving away from using pre-orders if it will reduce the amount of backlash I receive.  I really feel that if the pre-orders and drop dead release dates were a thing of the past, people might come up with something else to complain about. ...

i'll put in a vote for no pre-orders and no pre-announced release dates.

publish updates as often as you like, but don't build any expectations about when the product will ship. don't even say things like "the project is 90% done." just say things like, "the gears arrived today and they look good." then, one day, you can give us all a pleasant surprise by announcing that the product is shipping.

it's all about managing expectations.

[ChadTower]

You only have a dollar. Do you buy a $1 hot dog or a $1 notebook? If you buy the hot dog, the notebook is the "opportunity cost" (and vice versa); and no, you don't have a legitimate complaint against the hot dog vendor for costing you a notebook.

But they haven't gotten their SW yokes yet, right? It is irrelevant, because of the offer of the refund if anyone tires of waiting; so that's part of the deal that they bought into.  

BTW; "opportunity cost" is just a concept; it is not a real, tangible cost.

This response doesn't reflect the business definition of Opportunity Cost at all.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  And I'm not interested in debating it further.

Anyway, I've put out there how I feel about the situation, and Dave has heard my comments.  Note that I still have a pending preorder with him.  I'll bow out of the thread now.

[shardian]

I think I have mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again. Dave, at this point you HAVE to have at least one completed yoke. Even if it is hand crimped and wired, so be it. You simply JUST HAVE TO HAVE ONE COMPLETED SAMPLE PRODUCT!

Take that sample, snap a few pics, take a bit of video, and post it. You should have done this months ago. That's really what the nay-sayers want.

You are right, if you wouldn't have set dates, then the "It's a scam" naysayers with nothing better to do would have been dancing in the field well away from the woodwork. A simple working sample would have deterred them all.

Secondly, send a sample to a well known reliable tester. Either Retroblast or someone affiliated with Gameroom magazine. I guarantee you that you would get a VERY LARGE article spread in that magazine - probably the cover too.

[Havok]

I for one am satisfied to wait for a perfect completed product. Honestly, at this point, one more month means nothing considering how long I have already been waiting. Just hoping that Dave can complete and ship before Christmas.

Dave - let me know if you need any help testing with Mame since I pre-ordered the yoke and controller...

[TheShanMan]

Are any of the complainers customers of this product though? That's a big reason why their opinion is not important in my mind.

Potential customers don't count now?  Not a very smart business frame of mind IMHO.

I would lump together pre-order customers and those who want to order once the product is shipping. I haven't seen the complainers state that they are interested in buying, but I certainly could have missed that. You aren't thinking of buying one though, are you?

Ideally pre-orders should be acceptable because it's a nice way to let those who are willing to wait get the product at a reduced price, but it seems that the only way to prevent people from complaining about delays is to eliminate pre-orders. It's sad actually because I'm not even sure that the pre-order folks have even complained, but what can you do? Apparently it's just not worth it. So my reluctant vote (if anyone even cares) would be for no pre-orders.

[Cakemeister]

This whole thing reminds me of the Big Bang Bar pinball story. The guy takes preorders and then takes years to create the final product. Cost overruns and production snags aplenty. Eventually there is a happy ending and the machines are produced.

People should not forget that the yokes are not Dave's only product.

Also, I respectfully disagree with TheShanMan's opinion that preorders should be eliminated. In some cases preorders are the only to gauge interest in a product. The market for these yokes obviously is limited to SW console owners and hobbyists. If Dave blindly produced a yoke and there proved to be no market for it then Dave would be out many thousands of dollars. And you can't count "Hey I'd buy one" as market interest.

But I do agree that Dave should have produced at least one prototype, just to prevent possible manufacturing snags.

[Deadly]

This community is wishy washy at best. It's sad (for one instance) that you have the bigger players such as Quarterarcade and Phoenix arcade not willing to step in and try doing a run of particular artwork because "as mentioned above I'LL TAKE ONE" is almost BS everytime. So taking pre-orders ...... in order to secure my investment I sure as hell would and I think a person would be foolish not to. Notice I said "I think" which doesn;t mean that's the law - it's an opinion only.

C'mon guys - let's all be friends again and sit down with a pint! 

[metahugh]

I'LL TAKE ONE" is almost BS everytime

Very true... although some of us do follow through we we say we are in for one.  Every product I have said I would buy one for I have bought and multiples too.

Mario Bros CPO Repro - Quarterarcade
Burgertime CPO and Kickplate Art - This Old Game
Multiwilliams PCB - JROK
Multiwilliams Bezels - TheTanMan (on KLOV)

Just to name a few.

[Deadly]

Sorry my post wasn't trying to point to anyone in particular.... hope it wasn't percieved that way. I'm the same way, if I say "I'm in" then I am 100% commited. In fact I encourage people to take my money to ensure the project does indeed see the light of day. In a selfish sort away - I guess I feel there's more of a reason the person has to follow through at that point. Too many times have there been ideas brought to the table but never saw the light of day.

[MameMaster!]

Interesting you should suggest an article  in GameRoom. I actualy wrote it about 3 years ago when this was first announced. The article has since been shelved. 

[ChadTower]

I'd like to mention that I received a package from Dave less than 24 hours from my request to ship the roller controller separately from the Major Havoc CP.  I didn't need shipping like that - parcel post would have been fine - but he shipped it cross country overnight. 

This thing is really nice.  We can debate some of his practices but we sure as hell cannot debate quality.

[prOk]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   I wish I could get everything I want to do done on a perfect schedule without unexpected costs or real life getting in the way.  I'm sure david is no different but with the scale of his projects it's just that much more difficult.

He has clearly offered anyone that wants their money back the opportunity to do so, meaning anyone left with cash on the table is doing so openly and voluntarily.  What point does kicking him over and over again prove?  He's done quite a number of amazing parts so there's no question his ability to do it, so what if it doesn't meet an artificial deadline?   As long as you have either gotten your money back or made the choice to hold on until it's done there's no reason to keep up the bashing unless there's just some deep seeded motives involves I don't know about.  It will be done when it's done, would be a shame to see someone with his resources stop doing anything over something like this. 

[Level42]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 


I agree with prOk. I've sometimes been unkind to David, and he's always stayed cool and kind. More than kind.
In my book he already deserves a statue for all the parts he has made available.
Parts for which there are NO alternatives.
Parts that no-one else would even consider producing because of the simple reason that it's _highly_ doubtful that he will even break even.
Parts are not just equal to original quality but way over-specced in many cases.

Yes, in all honesty it may have been best to not set a deadline, but this is a labor of love. It's a hobby. It's not a daytime job.

[ChadTower]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   

How is that different from any small business?  That is the owner's time and the owner's dime too.

[CheffoJeffo]

Sometimes we forget that 99% of the stuff done by people to make reproductions is usually done on their dime, on their time.   

How is that different from any small business?  That is the owner's time and the owner's dime too.

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

[ChadTower]

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

The people paying for the product did the same thing.  It's a circular debate. 

[CheffoJeffo]

If he were keeping the money and not making things right with those who want their money back or partial orders shipped now, then it might be circular.

As it stands, it isn't.

[prOk]

Because the guys doing the repros aren't putting food on the table with their arcade work, they are usually taking food away from the table with it.

RealLife trumps arcade nerds.

The people paying for the product did the same thing.  It's a circular debate. 

Not circular in the slightest.  Those that paid have been offered and received their money back on request meaning that NOBODY is financially on the hook besides David for what he's already invested in time, equipment and materials unless they actively volunteer to be.  Huge difference, but it seems perhaps this is more about piling on than anything else at this point

There are many people that do repro parts and stuff that deal with their offerings as a small business but that does not diminish the fact that they formed those businesses just to supply things and do creative stuff in their off hours.  Most people doing this stuff don't actually profit much at all, certainly not enough to justify the beatings they take if they can't meet a timeline on something.  In all honesty, this stuff on occasion has to take a backseat because the real world forces you to do so and the vast majority of folks are completely understanding and can put things in proper perspective while others see it as an opportunity to seek and destroy.  Everyone's different I guess.

[Loafmeister]

Maybe there's something to be said to "there's no such thing as bad publicity" because if it came with a USB interface to connect to a PC based mame cab, I think I'd order one of the yokes now, and before all this drama, I didn't really have a desire before!

I think a lot of the headaches Dave is getting would be eliminated by just adding the following to the pre-order page of his website so it's clear that the deadlines are best effort and refunds are available.

"Due to the realities of R&D combined with the effort/intent to provide you with a quality product, all proposed deadlines are "best effort". Please see (insert web address of blog) for updates on the products progress and expected release date.  Deadlines are taken very seriously, great effort is put forth to meeting them. However, if they are not met, please feel free to request a refund on your pre-order, it will be granted without hesitation."

As far as pro/con comments, I don't think anyone is wrong, there's justification for both POVs.

[FrizzleFried]

Founded in 2005, RAM Controls produces quality reproduction controls for classic arcade games.  Our staff is made up of several experts in the arcade manufacturing industry, with extensive experience in electronics & mechanical R&D, manufacturing, repair and part sourcing. Our key designers and production personnel have over 80 years of combined experience in the arcade business. RAM Controls strives for the utmost quality, and our reproduction controls and parts are made to strict quality standards, often much higher than those installed in the original games.

Right on the front page.  Sure sounds like a business to me... being he has several experts in the arcade manufacturing industry on his payroll including "production personnel" and "key designers".  Do you have multiple employees Prok?  I'd venture to guess that most secondary "hobby" related business don't... usually just the one guy doing his best to get stuff done.  The above quote sure makes it sound like it's a professional 1st tier business,  no?

It looks like a duck... it walks like a duck... hell,  it even quacks like a duck... but I'm supposed to believe it's a cow?

...just sayin'.

[CheffoJeffo]

And here I thought that you didn't care ...

If it's a cow, then MAME it. Problem solved.

[FrizzleFried]

And here I thought that you didn't care ...

If it's a cow, then MAME it. Problem solved.

Well,  no one listens to me anyway.  And I don't.  But a MAMEd cow might be an interesting thing.  Use the udders as joysticks?



Close:



 

[CheffoJeffo]

I could have sworn that I actually saw udders as a control device on a machine, but I'll be damned if I am going to search for it.

Back to the issue at hand though ... I think that both you and I agree that Dave is not a scammer. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that he provides a service to the community. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that, as a community, we should be grateful for that.

Here is where we have the problem ... you're happy to jump on Dave for missing deadlines and letting the whole project go on for as long as he had.

How does your holding his feet to the fire help resolve that or, perhaps more importantly, encourage him to keep working on repro projects ?

I get that his talk about deadlines has prompted your actions -- hell, he practically invited you to do so.

My question is -- how are you helping anybody in the hobby by calling him out ?

And, if you aren't, then why bother in the first place ?

[FrizzleFried]

I could have sworn that I actually saw udders as a control device on a machine, but I'll be damned if I am going to search for it.

Back to the issue at hand though ... I think that both you and I agree that Dave is not a scammer. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that he provides a service to the community. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that, as a community, we should be grateful for that.

Here is where we have the problem ... you're happy to jump on Dave for missing deadlines and letting the whole project go on for as long as he had.

How does your holding his feet to the fire help resolve that or, perhaps more importantly, encourage him to keep working on repro projects ?

I get that his talk about deadlines has prompted your actions -- hell, he practically invited you to do so.

My question is -- how are you helping anybody in the hobby by calling him out ?

And, if you aren't, then why bother in the first place ?

I've not commented on the yoke situation since I said I was done.   I simply responded to folks saying this is a secondary "hobby" business for him,  which it certainly may be... but that's not how he portrays his business on his website.  If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.   I mean that facility pictured on his site has to cost some pretty decent dough... and employees earn a paycheck.  I assume these are the same employees that are wiring up the yokes... getting hand cramps,  etc...

Right?

[CheffoJeffo]

I've not commented on the yoke situation since I said I was done.   I simply responded to folks saying this is a secondary "hobby" business for him,  which it certainly may be... but that's not how he portrays his business on his website.  If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.

That is all.

OK, I get it.

You know, prOk's site looks like a 1st tier main business as well -- oi, prOk, where is my damned Cheyenne artwork ? It's been a damned year already. Oh wait, was I actually planning to create my own MultiExidy art instead of restoring Cheyenne using original art ? What, you expect me to be a paying customer before I jump around the boards and ---smurfette--- ? Oh, the inhumanity! [/sarcasm]

Come on Frizz, you and I both know what these guys go through ... your defense sounds a lot like the defense of folks who pick on Jeff about D2K -- just because you think you have a reason doesn't mean it is a good thing to do.

Don't try and play ignorant or somebody will step up and take advantage.

[FrizzleFried]

PMs sent... I'd rather take this discussion private rather than to ---meecrob--- up this already douchetastic thread.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

PMs sent... I'd rather take this discussion private rather than to ---meecrob--- up this already douchetastic thread.
 

Hey, it's not like I started this douchetastic thread ... you're just an amateur ... threads *I* start usually end up in PH.

 

 

[MameMaster!]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 

...it was an interview with Dave about his quest to create the perfect reproduction. Not a review of the yoke you silly boy. 

[FrizzleFried]

@Mamemaster!: Pretty interesting to see you already wrote an article about a product that isn't even here yet. 

...it was an interview with Dave about his quest to create the perfect reproduction. Not a review of the yoke you silly boy. 

Perhaps you can make it a series now?   

[Havok]

 If you visit his site,  it's portrayed as a 1st tier "main" business with multiple employees located in a rather nice sized warehouse location... certainly not a secondary "side" business run out of his house or some storage facility somewhere.   I mean that facility pictured on his site has to cost some pretty decent dough... and employees earn a paycheck.  I assume these are the same employees that are wiring up the yokes... getting hand cramps,  etc...

Right?

Ram Controls is a side business out of his business, but there's no point in not making the side business look good too. Technically, all his claims are true on the website (as far as I know), it's just that those employees get a paycheck with a different company logo on them. As far as deadlines not being met - crap happens, and they aren't always met; just look at the New York State budget deadline for one!

[prOk]

Havoc has it right.. Ram Controls is just a nights and evenings type biz for David where he goes out into his own shop and makes stuff, like quiet time from the real business that is stressful if that makes sense.  Think of it this way, yes he has engineers and machines, but if he had to pay his regular staff their regular wage to make miniscule runs of stuff like springs we could never afford those springs.  I'm sure he made ram controls a business for the same reasons I did.. not to look all corporate, but to keep the taxes and finances straight and well, be legal about it.

And cheffojeffo, you're so right about the Cheyenne art.  Been way too long, but at the same time just too complex to deal with for a while so it had no choice but to be put aside until I could get it dealt with.  Thankfully, the hard part is done and the artwork is now in thisoldgame's hands for printing so that project will FINALLY see the light of day    I'm just glad nobody's spent 10 pages of bashing on a message board about me over it   I know it's been a while, but hey, when the question is real job and real money to pay for my home or monkey around with some arcade art to meet some deadline i'll pay for my home every time and I hope you all think the same way.   If it's my family or my games, the games are history.

Even though Cheyenne is running way, way behind from what I actually wanted I did manage to deliver a bunch of neat things   Sometimes things that just randomly happen do indeed get in the way, but more often than not they eventually get done and then some.

Anyway, back to hopefully bringing out more of the positives of the hobby instead of pecking away at the negatives.

[CheffoJeffo]

To be clear, I was trying to be sarcastic .. I don't have an actual beef over the Cheyenne artwork.

I'm thrilled that someone cared enough to put the time into it that you and Rich have, even though I am thinking of creating original artwork for the 440 multi instead of restoring it back as Cheyenne (but i may change my mind ... again ... who knows).

Take care of the family ... those cabinets aren't going anywhere.

 

[mytymaus007]

WOW That would of been awsome if yu did a ZEBRA Theme but a caw Mooo

[Deadly]

Take care of the family ... those cabinets aren't going anywhere.

This pretty much sums it all up. Bravo CJ