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Author Topic: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?  (Read 21203 times)

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torino

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2011, 04:30:04 am »
To my surprise, 4 out of 7 LCDs that I've tested so far can actually refresh their panels at any custom refresh rates. 3 of the lucky ones are pre-2005 HP/Dell models. The forth one is in my Sony laptop. More modern LCDs I've tested (these include a 42" Philips TV and a four figures priced 30" Dell monitor) completely miss this capability. So one would say this feature has been dropped on the way during recent years.

Would you ever even bother start considering something as potentially believable, for which you can not find a single reference on the internet?

You know, we can actually e-mail manufacturers and simply ask them directly? Which I did, as you may know from that CabMame thread, and neither sale person or technician could tell me anything about it, as if they do not understand the question, as if that technology simply does not exist and they haven't got the slightest clue what am I talking about.

How come Wells-Gardner themselves don't know about a feature of their own product, especially since it would be very important for many different game boards it is supposed to support? How do you explain that, twilight zone? Do you think you can get direct confirmation about supposed variable refresh rates from any company that sells or manufactures these LCDs, any at all?


Quote
As there isn't much information available, the only way to draw conclusions is to test each single monitor.

Hold on, there is not *any* actual information confirming any LCD can sync to some range of arbitrary refresh rates, it's very much the opposite. We are not talking about pink unicorns, we are talking about very common and everyday household item. You can't just skip over that little peculiarity of "missing information" and ignore the rest of the world. Even people who make them and sell them don't seem to know anything about it, c'mon?!

Every article talking about it says LCDs have fixed refresh rates, and there is no single document to say otherwise, but you still want us to believe in this mysterious unspoken truth despite apperant contradiction with absolute majority of information? That's equivalent of expecting people to believe the Earth is flat, it's preposterous, is it not?


Quote
- You dislike the scrolling pattern I use,

- You have doubts on the actual refresh rate of the source even if I'm telling you tham I'm actually measuring it by means of an external clock, and what I'm measuring is the rate of the hardware's sync signal, not some sort of software emulated crap, and

I think your pattern is very nice, just awfully hard to look at, and it's not very effective for this test. What's the problem with trying horizontally scrolling vertical bars, or simply use that JudderTest program, don't you realize that's the best possible pattern for this?

Yes, I have doubts about software measurements. Try changing vsync setting from the control panel, try using different API, different video card, different driver, try switching between page flipping, double buffering and triple buffering, then you will notice your number will not always stay the same. And what's the problem with plugging in CRT with OSD to double-check the measurement?


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- You have doubts on my eye's sensitivity to judder, and are condescending enough as to consider I may have been under temporary illusion. I can't blame you for this and won't ask you an act of faith, and it would be worthless to try to persuade you of how trained I am on detecting video artifacts.

Do you realize you two are the only people in the world to claim this? Doesn't that strike you as strange? Perhaps you could tell manufacturers about your discovery and what their LCDs are capable of, and then maybe they will start advertising, or at least mention it, in their specification sheets and manuals, how about it?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 04:32:36 am by torino »

kalars123

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2011, 05:38:29 am »
against my better judgment I've decided to reply to you in this thread one more time, you do realize that those spec sheets i gave you, are for the display panel ONLY, no supporting hardware..... Why would panel manufactures make a display capable of accepting and therefore in turn output any other range of vrefresh other than <=> 60hz you can say that those are tolerance's of the panel it self, but it doesn't change the fact the it's still capable of accepting a variable range of input and in turn display that input, again this is something that I think you having a problem grasping the separation of JUST the display panel without any supporting hardware "ie processing logic board, scaling cpu, frequency blocking...ect" and a whole completed monitor which has all that installed on it. Again neither Calamity nor I are saying every single LCD monitor/tv is capable of doing this, only that a some are but to completely disregard the fact that some "again not all" LCD panels are capable of this is just plain ignorant. Using your logic 120hz and 240hz LCD TV's are just a figment of our imagination's and don't really exist and they are only displaying at 60hz

Here is a spec sheet for a Samsung LCD panel that is capable of accepting and therefore outputting only 60hz.  And you have said you only contacted Wells Gardner, they aren't a manufacture they are an assembler they take other company's parts and assemble them with their own logic boards.  If you want to get answer's about what a LCD panel is capable of then you should be calling the LCD panel manufactures IE AoU, Chimei, BoE,Hannstar..ect of course than means you going to have to call Korea,China, or Taiwan.

http://www.yslcd.com.tw/docs/product/LTN141XD-L01.pdf
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 06:09:44 am by kalars123 »

torino

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2011, 09:22:31 am »
you do realize that those spec sheets i gave you, are for the display panel ONLY, no supporting hardware.....

They appear quite complete to me, how else could they take analog VGA input and what for would they need back porch, front porch and blanking signal if that was some internal and direct input to LCD matrix itself? In any case, all that is about INPUT, which is not the same thing as OUTPUT.


Quote
Why would panel manufactures make a display capable of accepting and therefore in turn output any other range of vrefresh other than <=> 60hz you can say that those are tolerance's of the panel it self, but it doesn't change the fact the it's still capable of accepting a variable range of input and in turn display that input,

- "display capable of accepting --?--> and therefore in turn output"

- "accepting a variable range of input --?--> and in turn display that input"


Do you see a leap of faith there? Input is not the same thing as output, they are not related directly.


Quote
Again neither Calamity nor I are saying every single LCD monitor/tv is capable of doing this, only that a some are but to completely disregard the fact that some "again not all" LCD panels are capable of this is just plain ignorant.

Ignorant? Do you understand every single web page about this topic confirms LCDs have fixed refresh rates, and there is no single sentence on the whole world wide web to say the opposite? It's only you who is interpreting INPUT signal specification as display OUTPUT specification.


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Using your logic 120hz and 240hz LCD TV's are just a figment of our imagination's and don't really exist and they are only displaying at 60hz

Stop misquoting me, you don't even know what we are talking about. There is a difference between built-in set of predefined refresh rates and ability to sync to some range of arbitrary refresh rates. You are claiming the second one, and I previously pointed out we haven't even discussed yet the first option at all, remember?


Quote
And you have said you only contacted Wells Gardner, they aren't a manufacture they are an assembler they take other company's parts and assemble them with their own logic boards.  If you want to get answer's about what a LCD panel is capable of then you should be calling the LCD panel manufactures IE AoU, Chimei, BoE,Hannstar..ect of course than means you going to have to call Korea,China, or Taiwan.

This issue is very much related to arcade games only, if anyone should know anything about it's Wells Gardner, thought they should at least be aware what the hell are they assembling there, and maybe even test some of it, sometimes. In any case, you go ahead and contact whomever you want, see if you can get confirmation.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2011, 09:46:00 am »
Again your failing to understand the difference between a LCD display "panel" and an LCD monitor the former being like a CRT tube, the later being a CRT tube+chassis, I assure you that a CRT tube is quite capable of displaying a whole range of  frequency's more until the chassis is attached which then processes the signal and restricts it to a safe operational range. You ask how else they would feed analog VGA input into a LCD panel unless it was complete? They don't feed an analog VGA input into it at all, they hook it up to a test machine which feeds it a digital signal to test the absolute operational ranges of the panel. Input standards such as VGA,DVI,Display Port,HDMI come later after the logic boards have been attached and even then with basic video processing the analog VGA signal get's converted to a digital signal to be compatible with the digital LCD display.

yes and your misquoting me, I'm saying that they are capable of displaying other refresh rates than 60hz, whether that be a predefined set of refresh rate "IE 54hz, 57hz, 60hz, 63hz or 100hz,120hz,240hz" what I'm understanding you to say is no they are locked and can display ONLY 60hz, are we then agreeing that they are capable of displaying other refresh rates? and this is just a big misunderstanding?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 11:27:46 am by kalars123 »

Calamity

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2011, 12:09:28 pm »
torino,

Even if you show some pretty valid intuitions here and there, most of your doubts come from your more than obvious lack of experience and misconceptions on basic subjects, rather than healthy skepticism, something that's not bad at all unless you insist on pontificating all the time.

CRTs must have very precise way to control and measure timing, each single second, if that was not the case the picture would fly all over the place, so I think those numbers should be accurate, as accurate as oscilloscope, I would say. I rather trust CRT OSD than software, and with you it's the opposite, so why not have both measurements and we at least know they should not be far off.

Negative. CRTs just need to sync to the input signal, they don't even need to know what the actual frequency is at all. OSDs are just a relatively recent add-on, and you can't expect accurate figures out of them, just accurate enough to make decisions on blocking the video if they consider the input is out of range.

Yes, I have doubts about software measurements. Try changing vsync setting from the control panel, try using different API, different video card, different driver, try switching between page flipping, double buffering and triple buffering, then you will notice your number will not always stay the same. And what's the problem with plugging in CRT with OSD to double-check the measurement?

I'm not an electronic engineer, just a hobby user with some experience on this particular subject. And in my experience, results are very consistent if you really know what you're doing.

I don't have a CRT with OSD around to test for you, instead of that, have a look at the tests that a folk from the Spanish forum did using an oscilloscope to confirm that the real output of a R7000 card corresponds to the modeline timings:

http://www.marcianitos.in/foro/thread/41/52/14152_4.html
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2011, 01:45:31 pm »
Again your failing to understand the difference between a LCD display "panel" and an LCD monitor the former being like a CRT tube, the later being a CRT tube+chassis, I assure you that a CRT tube is quite capable of displaying a whole range of colors and frequency's more until the chassis is attached which then processes the signal and restricts it to a safe operational range. You ask how else they would feed analog VGA input into a LCD panel unless it was complete? They don't feed an analog VGA input into it at all, they hook it up to a test machine which feeds it a digital signal to test the absolute operational ranges of the panel. Input standards such as VGA,DVI,Display Port,HDMI come later after the logic boards have been attached and even then with basic video processing the analog VGA signal get's converted to a digital signal to be compatible with the digital LCD display.

That was the signal described as "input" in the specs, so what you call "just panel" obviously already has some kind of converter built-in, and they also listed some "control circuit", driver ICs and even power supply.

But why are we talking about incomplete units in the first place, let's talk about your and Calamity's monitors?


Quote
yes and your misquoting me, I'm saying that they are capable of displaying other refresh rates than 60hz, whether that be a predefined set of refresh rate "IE 54hz, 57hz, 60hz, 63hz or 100hz,120hz,240hz" what I'm understanding you to say is no they are locked and can display ONLY 60hz, are we then agreeing that they are capable of displaying other refresh rates? and this is just a big misunderstanding?

You said in your review:
- "..this LCD panel will refresh AT ANY RATE, regardless of what the nay-sayer's think this panel is the proof"

I'm not making any claims here, I just want to know if what you said is indeed true, that's all.


Please, words have their meanings, what you call "ANY" rate, Calamity named "CUSTOM", which is the same thing as what I call "RANGE", "VARIABLE" or "ARBITRARY". We never even discussed the possibility your monitor could have built-in some set of predefined refresh rates and *jump* from one to another, which I said is more likely, but then we are still left to explain Calamity's LCDs that, as he says, can truly sync (slide) to whatever "custom" refresh rate within some range.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2011, 01:59:04 pm »
Even if you show some pretty valid intuitions here and there, most of your doubts come from your more than obvious lack of experience and misconceptions on basic subjects, rather than healthy skepticism, something that's not bad at all unless you insist on pontificating all the time.

Perhaps irrelevant insult is your answer to how there is no single sentence on the whole world wide web to back up your claim?


Quote
Negative. CRTs just need to sync to the input signal, they don't even need to know what the actual frequency is at all. OSDs are just a relatively recent add-on, and you can't expect accurate figures out of them, just accurate enough to make decisions on blocking the video if they consider the input is out of range.

You forgot mention "why". Why can't we expect it to be accurate? What part of what you said makes it hard for OSD to count frames against whatever timer and display results as accurate as the timer itself?


Quote
I don't have a CRT with OSD around to test for you,

You said in previously:
- "...yes, I've got a retired 17" CRT which I'm planning to use for some testing during my holiday"

I am not asking you to do anything for me, I just wanted to help with my extraordinary experience and legendary skills as I expected having no reference to back up your claim you would at least want to make sure your tests are as good as possible. So, with or without CRT OSD, are you going to repeat the test with at least one of those variable refresh LCDs but with JudderTest program and proper pattern this time?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 02:02:24 pm by torino »

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2011, 02:02:37 pm »
perhaps me saying "at any rate" was to broad reaching and I'm willing to admit that and will fix that error in my review, however as far as the equipment i have, the unit will refresh at the correct rate, I can't say for sure if it is round the frequency up or not as the OSD will only display whole number's but everything I've tested with it points to the fact that it is capable of displaying 54hz-61hz, I'm definitely not saying that it will refresh at absolutely any random number as that would be impossible not even CRT's are capable of that everything has it's limit's.

I also want to point out, your reliance on a CRT's OSD is that not also just describing the input signal? Why would a CRT's OSD be any different than an LCD's OSD it would make absolutely no sense if one was displaying what's actually on the screen, and one displaying what the input signal was, the only logical thing to conclude is that they are both displaying the same information either it being the input signal, or what is actually being displayed.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 02:07:45 pm by kalars123 »

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2011, 03:07:35 pm »
perhaps me saying "at any rate" was to broad reaching and I'm willing to admit that and will fix that error in my review, however as far as the equipment i have, the unit will refresh at the correct rate, I can't say for sure if it is round the frequency up or not as the OSD will only display whole number's but everything I've tested with it points to the fact that it is capable of displaying 54hz-61hz, I'm definitely not saying that it will refresh at absolutely any random number as that would be impossible not even CRT's are capable of that everything has it's limit's.

Yeah, leave it as it is. Let's say it's open question, we're just talking, driving around in a van and solving mysteries, but eventually, hopefully, we will answer all the questions, to everyone's satisfaction, and then we will live happily ever after.


Quote
I also want to point out, your reliance on a CRT's OSD is that not also just describing the input signal? Why would a CRT's OSD be any different than an LCD's OSD it would make absolutely no sense if one was displaying what's actually on the screen, and one displaying what the input signal was, the only logical thing to conclude is that they are both displaying the same information either it being the input signal, or what is actually being displayed.

What do you mean "just"? That's exactly what we want it to describe, and as Calamity pointed all the rest of CRT image generation process kind of just dances along to that rhythm coded within the 'input signal' itself.
  
Now, LCDs seem to have fixed refresh rates and so this input signal tempo would be irrelevant if they anyway refresh only according to their internal built-in clock, but all this is under question mark and what we are trying to figure out here.

Sure it's possible LCDs could be as accurate, I just do not trust LCDs because instead of "raw" input signal they could be working with its digital simplification after it goes through ADC unit and already loose precision. But what's the use, your LCD OSD does not show any numbers behind decimal point anyway, whatever it measures it's obviously not accurate enough regardless of what the reason behind it really is.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 03:13:29 pm by torino »

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2011, 03:45:41 pm »
Even if it's not as "accurate" as a CRT which i would definitely be on the other side of the fence about a digital device is infinitely more accurate than a analog device, we are talking 10ths and 100ths of a Hrz here, in other words lets take UMK3 as an example it's original refresh rate was 54.815170Hz, now when i run my UMK3 PCB on my LCD the OSD say's it's refreshing at 55hrz, now were talking about .18483Hrz difference, using dumb math, that's 1/10th second aka imperceptible to the human eye when it's in a moving picture. So the discussion still comes back to if you believe that my monitor is really displaying at 55hrz or not, not how accurately it calculating the refresh speed it displays on the OSD, even a CRT OSD is not going to show anything past the 10ths decimal point, though i'm sure some very high end CRT's could display 100th's but certainly not 1000th's or 10,000th's.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 03:49:00 pm by kalars123 »

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2011, 05:03:40 pm »
Perhaps irrelevant insult is your answer to how there is no single sentence on the whole world wide web to back up your claim?

Hey torino, please don't be so delicate, we're debating aren't we?

Surprisingly, a lot of stuff from the real world is not documented at all in the www, we have to face that. Probably just because nobody is really interested.

I'm open to change my opinion if someone with proper technical knowledge on these devices provides us with an explanation. By now I trust my own direct observations on the monitors I have around. Perhaps you could provide us with some detais on the tests you're performing to back up your arguments, or a link to those articles you mentioned.

I have a question for you: have you ever seen a perfectly smooth scroll on the LCD screen where you test? I mean, using juddertest long enough to be absolutely sure there is no judder on that particular video mode/refresh? (60Hz?)
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2011, 07:00:55 pm »
speaking nothing regarding the A/D board placed into the LCD (panel only)

i would imagine that the actual refresh rate of an LCD panel would only be limited by the time it takes to switch the pixels. (however many microseconds of that particular panel is rated for.)

maybe the individual pixel elements operate kind of like an MPEG encoder... (only changing (or updating) those pixels that have changed since the last frame update) the rest being latched on by the panel hardware.  :dunno



if you all REALLY want i can pull out the oscilloscope tomorrow and test what the switching frequency of an individual pixel element is.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2011, 07:31:02 pm »
lilshawn that would be very appreciated, though i can tell you that the switching frequency is ~1mhz "1,000,000 C/S or approximately 1 microsecond". Of course that is only an average or best case scenario of an individual pixel different panels will have different ratings because of build quality and I tried to explain how the refresh rate is dictated by the ability of the pixel to change states "response time", perhaps you can explain it better than I can, I'm not at all very good at technical explanations.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 07:34:55 pm by kalars123 »

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2011, 03:12:01 am »
...digital device is infinitely more accurate than a analog device

Absolutely not, the very meaning of those words is exactly the opposite:

a.) digital = discrete, finite resolution

b.) analog = continuous, infinite resolution (infinite divisibility)


By the way "accuracy" is the most general description, it's combination of resolution or "granularity" and "precision", where those two could be the same, but precision itself could also bring additional limitations along with it. Granularity or resolution usually refers to raw data, something we measure, while precision refers to our instrument with which we measure, or how good it is to catch all the detail and capture resolution/granularity of that thing we measure.


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Quote
take UMK3 as an example it's original refresh rate was 54.815170Hz, now when i run my UMK3 PCB on my LCD the OSD say's it's refreshing at 55hrz, now were talking about .18483Hrz difference, using dumb math, that's 1/10th second aka imperceptible to the human eye when it's in a moving picture.

Ay, caramba! What your math there actually tells you is how often some frames will be repeated, which is exactly what produces visual glitch. If your hypothetical scenario was true, you would have a hiccups at about every 5 seconds interval. It's interesting actually, the smaller the difference the more sparse and, in a way, more obvious individual glitches become, ask Calamity.


feed 55 --> display 60fps (5.0 difference) = repeat 5 frames each second

feed 57 --> display 60fps (3.0 difference) = repeat 3 frames each second

feed 59.5 --> display 60fps (0.5 difference) = repeat 1 frame every 2 seconds

feed 59.8 --> display 60fps (0.2 difference) = repeat 1 frame every 5 seconds

feed 57.8 -- display 60fps (2.2 difference) = repeat 2 frames each second + 1 frame every 5 seconds


Quote
So the discussion still comes back to if you believe that my monitor is really displaying at 55hrz or not, not how accurately it calculating the refresh speed it displays on the OSD, even a CRT OSD is not going to show anything past the 10ths decimal point, though i'm sure some very high end CRT's could display 100th's but certainly not 1000th's or 10,000th's.

It would be sufficient for us OSD could show if only two digits after decimal point. Anyway, we are not talking about gods and afterlife, we do not live in a cave, we live in 21 century and information age. I do not want to "believe" anything, I want to *know* the facts. Please find information about the features of your LCD in your manual or ask the seller to confirm its specifications, it's your consumer right to know.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2011, 03:14:57 am »

Surprisingly, a lot of stuff from the real world is not documented at all in the www, we have to face that. Probably just because nobody is really interested.

Not documented?! What you are claiming is not even MENTIONED anywhere, people don't talk about it, no one seem to know about it, not even sales and technical department at Wells-Gardner.

On the other hand there is millions of Google results on this topic, and all of them say LCDs have fixed refresh rate. People are very much interested, can't you do 10 minutes web search and see for yourself? Can you not obtain direct confirmation from some company itself, or are you saying it's "normal" even they don't know anything about it?


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I'm open to change my opinion if someone with proper technical knowledge on these devices provides us with an explanation. By now I trust my own direct observations on the monitors I have around. Perhaps you could provide us with some detais on the tests you're performing to back up your arguments, or a link to those articles you mentioned.

We have already talked about it plenty, it's simple:

a.) Use JudderTest and with proper pattern repeat observation on at least one of those variable refresh LCDs

- AND/OR -

b.) Find information about that LCD in some manual or contact customer support to confirm its specifications


What do you expect, someone will come here to answer our question? Just ask them yourself, like I did, we live in 21 century, you have e-mail and phone and they have customers services, they'll be happy to help you and answer your question, and who better to ask than people who make them and sell them, right?


Quote
I have a question for you: have you ever seen a perfectly smooth scroll on the LCD screen where you test? I mean, using juddertest long enough to be absolutely sure there is no judder on that particular video mode/refresh? (60Hz?)

There is either choppiness or tearing on my LCD when refresh rate of video feed is different from 60fps.

Why are you asking about my monitor? It's your monitors that seem special and what's under question.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2011, 03:39:30 am »
There is either choppiness or tearing on my LCD when refresh rate of video feed is different from 60fps.

So, when video feed is 60 fps, there is no choppiness on your LCD, right?
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2011, 07:03:43 am »
So, when video feed is 60 fps, there is no choppiness on your LCD, right?

Where are you going with this, beside off topic? I could be blind and not have any computer nor monitor as far as this discussion goes - we are not talking about me, but you, your observations, your conclusions, your monitors and your claims. What are you even talking about, is your question about JudderTest program or in general?

With JudderTest I can't do it since all resolutions report refresh rate different from 60.0, like 77.1, 60.9 and 63.4. With MAME I was also unable to achieve smooth scroll even if the game was supposedly running at exactly 60fps. Generally speaking I am not sure. I know I saw plenty of choppiness and tearing in many games and video material, but I can't really say if there was anything running absolutely smoothly on my LCD, maybe it was just me not paying proper attention, I don't know. I don't even know if my LCD is refreshing at exactly 60fps, or could it be 59.8, or something, maybe it's not stable, maybe it actually varies, but involuntarily, and maybe it's really impossible to achieve smooth frame rate sync with LCDs, I don't know... do you?

Did I answer your question? What was the point?


My question to you is, whether or not are you going to do any of this, any time soon:

a.) Use JudderTest and with proper pattern repeat observation on at least one of those variable refresh LCDs
- AND/OR -
b.) Find information about that LCD in some manual or contact customer support to confirm its specifications

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2011, 09:50:55 pm »
speaking nothing regarding the A/D board placed into the LCD (panel only)

i would imagine that the actual refresh rate of an LCD panel would only be limited by the time it takes to switch the pixels. (however many microseconds of that particular panel is rated for.)

There is a little computer in there, for the little people who live inside, it comes all together with its own GPU, CPU and RAM, and data bus, address bus and control bus, and buffers and cache, and these things have their maximum write and read speeds, access and transfer times, wait times, their internal clocks and bits of width.

The first thing little LCD people have to do when dealing with computer video feed is to undo what graphic adapter has done just a moment ago, then do it all over again, and then do something similar yet again, only this last time the target frame buffer memory would not be VRAM/SRAM but something more complex and much slower, the "LCD matrix RAM", as Oompa Loompas call it.

Even without ADC unit there is a lot of other stuff to easily affect the final outcome, it's in the nature of digital processing and data transfer in-between all those components, and this is all before the data comes to the final dispatch converter that will actually output assigned voltage levels to crystals in the panel matrix itself... and then, on top of all that, only when voltage has already reached the pixel do we have 'response time' starting to happen.

Response time is more of an additional delay type of thing, rather than the source of the problem, and although it sure is ALSO one of the bounds for MAXIMUM frame rate number, it's not really an explanation for "coarse granularity", or why an LCD refresh rate(s) would be FIXED rather than VARIABLE.

It seems more likely the answer to that question is within properties of the little computer that necessarily comes with our LCDs, not the crystal matrix itself. All those components work in very consecutive, sequential, linear and lock-synced way, so even if the frame buffer SRAM could be asynchronous, the whole process and actual realization would be as limited as the worst part of it all, not only in relation to our temporal resolution or chrono-granularity, but similarly it would also constrain overall pixel bandwidth and define the majority of output lag/delay, as well as the number of maximum colors.


Quote
maybe the individual pixel elements operate kind of like an MPEG encoder... (only changing (or updating) those pixels that have changed since the last frame update) the rest being latched on by the panel hardware. 

Perhaps, although there would still need to be "refresh rate", maybe not "_frame rate" per se, but when camera pans and when the screen scrolls then often all the pixel change every frame, and then you have to satisfy two conditions if that panning or scrolling is to be absolutely smooth:

1.) all the pixels must be able to change into their assigned colors before it's time for the next frame

2.) the time spacing between output frames must match with video feed frame rate --> 1:1 mapping



Quote
if you all REALLY want i can pull out the oscilloscope tomorrow and test what the switching frequency of an individual pixel element is.

Yeah, please do that. I would really, really like to know those results. I'd also like if you could measure the sync signal coming out of video card VGA port and see if you can decode refresh rate from it. That would be fantastic.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2011, 08:20:33 am »
So here goes the test:

- System: Windows XP-32bits
- CRT_Emudriver 9.3 XP-32bits
- Powerstrip 3.90
- Juddertest 1.1

Test monitors:

- CRT, 15" LG (late 90's)
- LCD-1, 17" HP 1740 (pre-2005)
- LCD-2, 20" Dell 2007WFPb



This will show how we can test custom refresh rates on the fly only using CRT_Emudriver + Arcade_OSD. For the first test, I'm setting 640x480@60 using Arcade_OSD. We already have a 640x480 custom modeline that overrides the equivalent system mode (that's why the edit menus are highlighted):



The quickest way to create a custom refresh rate is by editing the vertical geometry, so we enter this menu:



First we need to disable the vfreq lock, then we will increase front and back porches by the same amount of lines. As we do that, we'll notice how our precalculated vertical refresh goes down. We are going to try with a refresh around 55Hz, so when we get close to that figure, we'll press P1 or Enter to accept the new timings, then the screen will blink for one instant as the monitor syncs to the new timings. Now we press 5 to measure the real refresh rate. We'll see an scrolling pattern for some seconds while the refresh value is measured. Scrolling is perfectly smooth as we're using a CRT and screen updates are synchronized to our video card's vblank signal. Resulting refresh turns out to be 55.076 Hz (very close the the refresh used by many Irem games):



Then we enter our monitor's OSD, to check that the input signal has the expected vfreq. Unfortunately this old CRT only shows integer values for refresh rate:



Now, without exiting this menu, we switch vga cables, now hooking the HP LCD to the vga output. The picture blinks for a instant as the monitor adjusts for the custom timings. OSD shows 55.1Hz as the input signal. We press 5 again to see that the scrolling pattern is perfectly smooth, no judder at all:



Now we repeat the process with the Dell LCD. Its OSD only shows integer values too (55). But now, when we press 5, the scroll is full of choppiness and judder:





Its interesting to notice that in these three cases, calculated vfreq turned out to be 55.076 Hz, so its obvious that our output signal is not altered by switching monitors.

For the next tests, we are going to use Powerstrip as the method for working with custom timings. We won't edit those timings directly through the Powerstrip user interface, but using Juddertest instead which uses Powerstrip API to handle custom video timings. So we need to install Powerstrip, reboot, and execute it, and we'll be ready for using Juddertest.

First of all, we're going to set the desktop to the video mode we want to test, as Juddertest can't change the video mode dynamically. We'll use Arcade_OSD for that. In the mode list, we notice there's an interesting system's native mode: 800x600@56Hz. We'll select this one and set it as our desktop mode:



Now, we'll measure its vfreq, to make sure it's the right one:



Vfreq measured by Arcade_OSD is 56.250 Hz:



We'll notice that the edit menus are disabled for this mode. This is because it's a driver's native mode, not at custom one, so we can't have access to its timings with the methods used by Arcade_OSD. Fortunately, Powerstrip allows us to edit the timings of any video mode, as it can access hardware directly using its own driver.

So it's time to run Juddertest. This program will read the timings of the active video mode getting them from Powerstrip's hidden window. If we look at the vertical geometry column, we'll notice the refresh rate is the exact same one that Arcade_OSD measured: 56.250 Hz



Now we get into the test itself and enter the OSD to check the signal's refresh is the right one. The vertical bars scroll smoothly as expected for a CRT:



Now, let's switch to the HP LCD. We do this without exiting or stopping the test, so no cheating is possible:





Unlike with the previous video mode, now the OSD only shows the video mode formatted without decimals. I believe this is because this time the monitor recognizes the resolution as we haven't tweaked it. As for the judder, there's nothing but a perfectly smooth scrolling, no choppiness at all.

Now, let's switch to the Dell LCD. As soon as we plug the cable and the picture stabilizes, we notice that the scroll is not smooth any more, it's full of little jumps and even tearing:





Dell's OSD shows the right refresh anyway.

Finally, we are going to test a 57 Hz mode. For this test, we are going to start enabling the native standard 800x600@60 built in the driver. We plug our CRT again and from Arcade_OSD we select the mode:



What we're going to do is to tweak this mode and reduce its refresh to something around 57 Hz. This time we'll use Juddertest's interface for doing that:



As we did before, we'll increase both vertical porches until we reach the frequency we want, 57.390 Hz:



Once we press Apply and the new mode is on the screen, we can enter the test. Again, our OSD shows the right frequency:



Now we switch to the HP LCD, and a beatiful 57.3 figure is shown on its OSD, as the scroll rolls smooth as silk:



We think its enough for a day and don't feel like plugging the Dell monitor as the scroll is going to be crap anyway, but hey, let's do it for the sake of science:



Oh my... Surprisingly, now the Dell also shows an incredibly smooth scroll with this 57 Hz frequency.

This reinforces the idea that LCD devices have some predefined ranges for the input signal where they are able to update the panel at the original signal's refresh provided the input falls within that range, rather than a "fixed" frequency. This range may be wider or narrower depending on the model, even possibly be several different ranges, but its likely to be a feature related to accompanying board harware rather than some fundamental property of the panel itself.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 11:12:33 am by Calamity »
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2011, 11:14:18 am »
Calamity, that's excellent, very good indeed. And it looks smooth, you say? What a nice mystery! You know, I got it smooth too. I actually completely believe what you're saying, but I still have to question those conclusions and implications, completion of explanations.


You see, when I force "wait for vertical refresh" in video hardware settings I too get what looks like rather smooth scroll, with both your program and JudderTest, even with resolutions like 1024x768 @ 77.1Hz, where supposedly 17 frames are missing each second. -- Does that mean my monitor is not only variable multi-sync like yours, but it also can go up to 77 fps, and more? It is also curious, how can PowerStrip possibly initialize 77.1Hz refresh resolution and then your program calculates 60.91fps, what's going on there?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2011, 01:10:45 pm »
I found a similar thing. There is a definite distinct difference between manufacturers.

i don't have my notes with me here, but i scoped out the output drivers of a couple of monitors i had lying around. i know nothing of IPS or TFT or whatever, so i'll have to do some research to find out what these monitors are

a 15inch NEC multisync circa 2004 (chosen because it seems to sync to just about ANYTHING)

a 15inch IBM brand circa 2009 (unknown who the actual manufacturer is. the panel has no other markings or stickers.) this panel is limited to all but the most common resolutions

a 17inch panel of unknown origin... i believe it is a decased ELO touchscreen monitor. still looking in this info. it has been heavily modified.

i have a couple of 19's but i haven't got around to peeling the cases open yet.



seems the actual pixel output on the NEC is dynamic... it changes frequency to match the input. (IE. if the input is @60hz the panel is also driven at this frequency 75, the same almost the same as a CRT) interestingly enough i cant detect a pulse on a static screen image (either that or my scope isn't fast enough to pick it up) there is a little bit of noise...but i can't be positive. i can really only see it when there is a constantly changing image. (which kinda makes me think about the whole MPEG screen update theory) another interesting thing i found with the NEC was that between a top of the panel pixel and a bottom of the screen pixel, the pulse timings are identical. so tick one for a "whole" screen update theory.

i tried the IBM branded monitor next and found that this monitor was absolutly retarded. must have been something in house designed... but no stickers, it is much newer than the others, produced sometime in 2009. i cant tell who made anything on it. i tried to feed it a 800x600@75hz signal but wouldn't take anything over 60. hmm. okay. tried to force a few lower frequencies and different resolutions with it. no go. 60 it is then. i don't have the setup right now to test as extensive as Dalamity did but. much to my surprise the panel pixels where much higher than 60.  :dizzy: i'm officially confused now. i set this one aside for some more tinkering but it looks like the panel is refreshed at a fixed rate

the "ELO" monitor performed much the same as the NEC. it seemed to take just about anything resolution wise. it's design looks older, so i can only guess the technology is similar to the NEC. tests where identical.

i'm going to try and borrow a better scope and get a little deeper.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2011, 02:28:04 pm »
It is also curious, how can PowerStrip possibly initialize 77.1Hz refresh resolution and then your program calculates 60.91fps, what's going on there?

That's a problem of Arcade_OSD, I made it for testing low resolutions so for the test grid I just used Windows API to render lines, which is extremely slow, so when testing high resolutions or high refresh rates, it's not fast enough to render the whole frame in time, and the counter is not reliable for this reason. I definitely need to change the pattern drawing method, probably using assembly for that routine.
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2011, 03:58:35 pm »
It is also curious, how can PowerStrip possibly initialize 77.1Hz refresh resolution and then your program calculates 60.91fps, what's going on there?

That's a problem of Arcade_OSD, I made it for testing low resolutions so for the test grid I just used Windows API to render lines, which is extremely slow, so when testing high resolutions or high refresh rates, it's not fast enough to render the whole frame in time, and the counter is not reliable for this reason. I definitely need to change the pattern drawing method, probably using assembly for that routine.


No, that's not it. Drawing a little pattern can't be that slow, no matter how poorly coded. I can actually see how fast it draws if I disable "wait for vertical refresh" in video hardware settings, and then I get over 120fps, plus the number varies slightly each time. The other thing about it is that your program comes up with that exact 60.912fps number quite often and with other resolutions and refresh rates too. Interestingly that just happens to be the same frequency as "native" refresh rate of my full LCD resolution, which is 1280x800@60.9 as PowerStrip says, and your program agrees there, as well it seems to be the same number against which JudderTest reports "Lost Frames". -- Can you try that same resolution (1024x768 @ 77.1Hz) with different "wait for vertical refresh" video hardware settings, and see what numbers you get, and whether it still smoothly scrolls?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2011, 04:12:13 pm »
i'm going to try and borrow a better scope and get a little deeper.

Looking forward to that. Something is not quite right here, huh?

Where's official information, why everyone says LCD fps are fixed?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2011, 05:18:35 pm »
i'm going to try and borrow a better scope and get a little deeper.

Looking forward to that. Something is not quite right here, huh?

Where's official information, why everyone says LCD fps are fixed?

it could just be different technologies... TFT vs IPS

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2011, 12:49:48 am »
I think its more likly that its drawn from "common knowledge" everyone says it so, so it must me be, even if its not true 100% of the time

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2011, 02:38:58 am »
Where's official information, why everyone says LCD fps are fixed?

it could just be different technologies... TFT vs IPS

Why, how, what? -- No, this does not seem to be related to the technology of crystal polarization at all, but to limitations of the driving circuitry, the thing that actually outputs voltage levels to the crystal grid and has direct connection to individual pixels in the matrix.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2011, 02:40:42 am »
i don't have my notes with me here, but i scoped out the output drivers of a couple of monitors i had lying around.

What are you measuring? What is "output drivers", some controller IC inside LCD?

How many output "pins" that thing has, what kind of signal it is and where it goes?


Quote
seems the actual pixel output on the NEC is dynamic... it changes frequency to match the input. (IE. if the input is @60hz the panel is also driven at this frequency 75, the same almost the same as a CRT

Are you measuring some kind of connection going directly to a single pixel or maybe a whole row of pixels, or what? Are there some markings on that electrical component, can you properly identify what is that thing you are measuring?


Quote
i don't have the setup right now to test as extensive as Dalamity did but. much to my surprise the panel pixels where much higher than 60.

Are you measuring voltage pulses of individual crystals in the panel matrix itself? How do you do that, where exactly do you place your probes?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2011, 03:02:44 am »
I think its more likly that its drawn from "common knowledge" everyone says it so, so it must me be, even if its not true 100% of the time

What are you talking about? It's like you never seen the internet before. You go ahead and ask me anything else about anything else. Ask me how Space Shuttle works, or any single part of it, ask me how to build a nuclear bomb... ask me anything and I will show you overwhelming amount of information about it, official information from text-books, factory specifications, manufacturing data sheets, patents, papers, manuals, articles, blogs and forums where people are talking about it.

You see, as TVs become bigger and bigger, so things it displays get further and further apart, there is actually more and more talk going on about refresh rates, frame rate interpolation and conversion, and automatically everything else that goes along with it. This does not seem as something companies would even want to hide from the consumer, so how in the world do you then explain something like it could remain a mystery, instead of to be ADVERTISED?! How do you explain people at Wells-Gardner do not know abut it?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2011, 06:05:28 am »
No, that's not it. Drawing a little pattern can't be that slow, no matter how poorly coded. I can actually see how fast it draws if I disable "wait for vertical refresh" in video hardware settings, and then I get over 120fps, plus the number varies slightly each time. The other thing about it is that your program comes up with that exact 60.912fps number quite often and with other resolutions and refresh rates too. Interestingly that just happens to be the same frequency as "native" refresh rate of my full LCD resolution, which is 1280x800@60.9 as PowerStrip says, and your program agrees there, as well it seems to be the same number against which JudderTest reports "Lost Frames". -- Can you try that same resolution (1024x768 @ 77.1Hz) with different "wait for vertical refresh" video hardware settings, and see what numbers you get, and whether it still smoothly scrolls?

Arcade_OSD already performs its own wait for vertical retrace based on the DirectDraw API, so if its running full speed unless you enable some hardware option that means DirectDraw acceleration is disabled in your system, check that in dxdiag, screen tab.

There's something interesting that I found when using Powerstrip API to read the hardware values after switching to the different resolutions built in my laptop (nVidia card, LCD with 1280x800 native resolution). It turns out that different resolutions are emulated! Using the modded Arcade_OSD I attached before in this thread (that can read the hardware values directly from Powerstrip), I noticed that regardless the full screen resolution I set with Arcade_OSD, it always read the same values for xres, yres: 1280x800 (desktop resolution). So if I set something like 1024x768, the video card somehow scales the frame and then outputs it at 1280x800. The side effect is that Powerstrip doesn't recognize the resolution as 1024x768 and thus it does not apply our predefined custom timings. So if this is the case, I bet your 1024x768@77.1Hz timings are not being used at all. Then if you want to test custom timings with Arcade_OSD + Powerstrip in these cases, either apply the custom timings to the monitor's native resolution and only test this one, or set the desktop at the desired custom resolution before running the tests.


« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 07:26:12 am by Calamity »
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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2011, 12:42:45 pm »
Arcade_OSD already performs its own wait for vertical retrace based on the DirectDraw API, so if its running full speed unless you enable some hardware option that means DirectDraw acceleration is disabled in your system, check that in dxdiag, screen tab.

In that case it only "requests", it does not "perform" it by itself, and I apperantly have external control over it by changing video driver settings. I told you exactly what, how and why. It is not "some" hardware option, I was very specific that it is "WAIT FOR VERTICAL REFRESH" settings, which everyone should know is a part of general video driver configuration and has nothing to do with dxdiag or DiractDraw acceleration.

a.) Always Off
b.) Off, unless application specifies
c.) On, unless application specifies
d.) Always On

Does this look familiar? Do you know what I am talking about now?


Quote
There's something interesting that I found when using Powerstrip API to read the hardware values after switching to the different resolutions built in my laptop (nVidia card, LCD with 1280x800 native resolution). It turns out that different resolutions are emulated!

Interesting indeed. How is that even possible, what's the purpose? 

How can GPU decide to override initialization and deceive you like that?

Why would GPU do such thing for LCD, why would it care, how could it know?


Quote
Using the modded Arcade_OSD I attached before in this thread (that can read the hardware values directly from Powerstrip), I noticed that regardless the full screen resolution I set with Arcade_OSD, it always read the same values for xres, yres: 1280x800 (desktop resolution). So if I set something like 1024x768, the video card somehow scales the frame and then outputs it at 1280x800.

It sounds like you are describing a simple BUG, but instead of to realize 'software problem' you are blaming it on some supposed heinously useless "feature" built in video adapter itself. Although, basically, you seem to be confirming software can not be trusted since the hardware will do its own thing independently, secretly and regardless anyway, is that what you're saying?


Quote
The side effect is that Powerstrip doesn't recognize the resolution as 1024x768 and thus it does not apply our predefined custom timings.

Recognize? PowerStrip MAKES it happen by doing hardware INITIALIZATION, which is why you can see the picture go out of sync if you enable "Real-time adjustment" in advanced timing options and change parameters randomly, wouldn't you agree? In contrast there is nothing in DirectX API to help you set up or control custom resolutions and refresh rates, so what PowerStrip does is not sending "requests" via API and Windows drivers, but it actually pokes video hardware registers quite directly, and that's not "recognizing" that's "initializing", isn't that right? So, the point again seem to be how software can not be trusted since the hardware will do its own thing independently, secretly and regardless anyway, is that what you're saying?


Quote
So if this is the case, I bet your 1024x768@77.1Hz timings are not being used at all. Then if you want to test custom timings with Arcade_OSD + Powerstrip in these cases, either apply the custom timings to the monitor's native resolution and only test this one, or set the desktop at the desired custom resolution before running the tests.

I did set up custom timings, like 75.8Hz, and everything is still smooth with both your test program and JudderTest, only this time your application reports 60.2 instead of 60.9 fps. I want to underline none of those tricks with forcing "wait for vertical refresh" in video hardware driver settings actually work with MAME, I can't get Scramble or Moon Patrol to scroll smoothly even if I force 60fps and no matter whatever else I try. -- So, did you actually manage to get correct timing reported by your software @ 77 Hz with ANY of your computers, at all? Was scroll still smooth? Can you get Scramble or Moon Patrol to scroll smoothly with any of those LCDs?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2011, 05:48:12 pm »
In that case it only "requests", it does not "perform" it by itself, and I apperantly have external control over it by changing video driver settings. I told you exactly what, how and why. It is not "some" hardware option, I was very specific that it is "WAIT FOR VERTICAL REFRESH" settings, which everyone should know is a part of general video driver configuration and has nothing to do with dxdiag or DiractDraw acceleration.

a.) Always Off
b.) Off, unless application specifies
c.) On, unless application specifies
d.) Always On

Does this look familiar? Do you know what I am talking about now?

In normal conditions, the inability to achieve vsync in ddraw based apps is caused by hardware acceleration being disabled for the ddraw part, that's why I pointed that, trying to help you.

If you're playing with the driver vsync options, which override the normal expected behaviour, then it's normal that you are getting unpredictable results. I don't have a clue of which system you're using, which video card, drivers version as you won't tell us. Those options are force brute features that are there to help the average 3d gamer override the way that each particular game deals with vertical synchronization. You know, I never install any video driver control panel, I hate the way they get in the middle of things, I always use the Windows native options for things like managing multiple monitors, etc.

"Perform", "request"... obviously I'm using the DirectX API provided by Windows for accessing the hardware, can't read the hardware ports any more as in the DOS days:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg426188%28VS.85%29.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg426159%28VS.85%29.aspx

Quote
Interesting indeed. How is that even possible, what's the purpose? 

How can GPU decide to override initialization and deceive you like that?

Why would GPU do such thing for LCD, why would it care, how could it know?

GPU has nothing to do here. The drivers are doing that for some reason, I think they are getting the default supported resolutions from the monitor's EDID and using them.

Quote
It sounds like you are describing a simple BUG, but instead of to realize 'software problem' you are blaming it on some supposed heinously useless "feature" built in video adapter itself. Although, basically, you seem to be confirming software can not be trusted since the hardware will do its own thing independently, secretly and regardless anyway, is that what you're saying?

Hardware only does what software says. Drivers are software. Drivers can be badly written, or have bugs, or annoying limitations as the infamous custom video mode limit, or be much like a black box, that's why I study them to make sure I get consistent results.

And no, I'm not talking of a bug, it's something that's actually there for some reason.

Quote
Recognize? PowerStrip MAKES it happen by doing hardware INITIALIZATION, which is why you can see the picture go out of sync if you enable "Real-time adjustment" in advanced timing options and change parameters randomly, wouldn't you agree? In contrast there is nothing in DirectX API to help you set up or control custom resolutions and refresh rates, so what PowerStrip does is not sending "requests" via API and Windows drivers, but it actually pokes video hardware registers quite directly, and that's not "recognizing" that's "initializing", isn't that right? So, the point again seem to be how software can not be trusted since the hardware will do its own thing independently, secretly and regardless anyway, is that what you're saying?

Negative. Video mode initialization is still performed by the video driver, Powerstrip then intercepts the process and feeds the hardware ports with its own custom timings. But the bulk of the process is done by the video driver. That's why Powerstrip needs you to restart the system when you create a new video mode, because it uses the same general driver methods of enabling custom modes that i.e. Soft-15Khz.

Quote
I did set up custom timings, like 75.8Hz, and everything is still smooth with both your test program and JudderTest, only this time your application reports 60.2 instead of 60.9 fps. I want to underline none of those tricks with forcing "wait for vertical refresh" in video hardware driver settings actually work with MAME, I can't get Scramble or Moon Patrol to scroll smoothly even if I force 60fps and no matter whatever else I try. -- So, did you actually manage to get correct timing reported by your software @ 77 Hz with ANY of your computers, at all? Was scroll still smooth? Can you get Scramble or Moon Patrol to scroll smoothly with any of those LCDs?

What I do is to apply the custom timings directly to the monitor's native res, so I tweak 1280x800 to have any custom refresh I want, i.e. 57.55 Hz for donpachi. Then I run Mame with -noswitchres -video d3d -syncrefresh options.
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torino

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2011, 10:40:33 am »
In normal conditions, the inability to achieve vsync in ddraw based apps is caused by hardware acceleration being disabled for the ddraw part, that's why I pointed that, trying to help you.

That's not "normal" condition, that's "SLOW COMPUTER" type of condition, and the test demonstrated my computer is fast enough. The case we are talking about clearly has nothing to do with ddraw settings and hardware acceleration, it is about WAITING for vertical refresh.
 
In 'normal conditions' different people will have different option enabled in those settings, they will also have different hardware and different drivers, while different programs will use different APIs, and some of those combinations will even behave differently with the same settings.


Quote
If you're playing with the driver vsync options, which override the normal expected behaviour, then it's normal that you are getting unpredictable results.

There is no "normal expected behavior", that's exactly why those OPTIONS are there, it's about USER CHOICE, and also to remedy the problem I mentioned above, which means to FORCE one behavior, or the other, despite all the possible conflicts between incompetent API, inadequate drivers and dumb video adapter. Therefore, and becasue of it, I actually can get very predictable results, as I described previously:

a.) wait for vertical refresh ON = application returns the same fps, as drawing is locked to vsync (60.9 fps)
b.) wait for vertical refresh OFF = application goes for maximum fps, so the result slightly varies (124+ fps)


Quote
I don't have a clue of which system you're using, which video card, drivers version as you won't tell us.

I will tell you everything you want to know, just ask me, at least once.

>> DELL Inspiron 1501 with WinXP and ATI Xpress 1150 (ver. 8.351.0.0)

The computer is fast enough, what is it you suspect? One of the first things I told you is how different hardware, different drivers, different APIs and different configurations and combinations can produce different results, that's why I said I would rather not trust what "software" thinks about any of it, especially if it's using Windows drivers and DirectX API.


Quote
Those options are force brute features that are there to help the average 3d gamer override the way that each particular game deals with vertical synchronization. You know, I never install any video driver control panel, I hate the way they get in the middle of things, I always use the Windows native options for things like managing multiple monitors, etc.

It is already in the middle of things. The fact remains those setting are there, whether you ignore it or not, and one of those options is enabled while others disabled, whether you like it or not, and this in turn will ultimately determine how any particular API will behave despite of what programmers intended or failed to facilitate an option for. Do you even know what's your current video driver "wait-vsync" configuration, and what do you think the "default" or "normal" settings should be?


Quote
"Perform", "request"... obviously I'm using the DirectX API provided by Windows for accessing the hardware, can't read the hardware ports any more as in the DOS days:

And so, how do you INITIALIZE *custom* resolutions and refresh rates then?

I thought you're using PowerStrip for that. What do you need PowerStrip for?


Quote
GPU has nothing to do here. The drivers are doing that for some reason, I think they are getting the default supported resolutions from the monitor's EDID and using them.

Well, if you are using DirectX API then GPU and its Windows driver are like one and the same thing, so the point remains how applications that use DirectX API and Windows drivers have no real control of what is actually going on.

Ok, so that particular deceitful computer of yours is not of any help, but that only opens new questions and undermines validity of the test results, while my original question is rather unrelated and is about whether you *can* get your software to calculate correct frame rate with some refresh above 60, like 75.8 or 77.1 fps with ANY COMPUTER AT ALL, and if scrolling still remains smooth?


Quote
Hardware only does what software says. Drivers are software. Drivers can be badly written, or have bugs, or annoying limitations as the infamous custom video mode limit, or be much like a black box, that's why I study them to make sure I get consistent results.

And no, I'm not talking of a bug, it's something that's actually there for some reason.

Your study definitively needs to include "wait for vertical refresh" options in video driver settings, becasue it can override what application (API) may falsely believe is actually going on. -- How can you know what software tells you is not really a software related problem when you just agreed all those software layers are "black box" and even confirmed your own computer produces unreliable and unpredictable results on its own and by itself, while in the same time you have yet no idea why that mysterious feature would even exist and why would suddenly hardware stop obeying what software says?


Quote
Negative. Video mode initialization is still performed by the video driver, Powerstrip then intercepts the process and feeds the hardware ports with its own custom timings. But the bulk of the process is done by the video driver. That's why Powerstrip needs you to restart the system when you create a new video mode, because it uses the same general driver methods of enabling custom modes that i.e. Soft-15Khz.

You mean it OVERRIDES "standard" resolutions by DIRECTLY accessing hardware video registers and setting custom timings which is what INITIALIZES video adapter so to make it produce/output "custom" resolutions and refresh rates, like this:

Code: [Select]
#define CRTC_INDEX          0x03d4   
#define H_BLANK_START       0x02
#define H_BLANK_END         0x03
#define H_RETRACE_START     0x04
#define H_RETRACE_END       0x05
#define V_RETRACE_END       0x11

    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_TOTAL, 0x6b);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_DISPLAY_END, 0x59);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_BLANK_START, 0x5a);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_BLANK_END, 0x8e);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_RETRACE_START, 0x5e);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_RETRACE_END, 0x8a);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, V_RETRACE_END, 0x8e);

...yes, that's what I think PowerStrip is doing, and the key word here is what you call "feeds the hardware ports", which is what I call DIRECTLY "accessing video registers", and that's also what makes it different from INDIRECTLY requesting such functionality via some API and Windows drivers.

Windows video drivers do not support *custom* resolutions and refresh rates, you actually need to override what they do in order to define your own resolutions, where the real "API" for the task is VGA/VESA specification ("standard") which defines, more or less, basic low-level functionality you can then use to access those video registers directly and thus make your own custom timings, secretly and behind operating system, without any involvement, or even presence, of any video driver at all.

You do not need to restart computer in order to apply custom timings in PowerStrip. If you enable "Real-time adjustment" settings in advanced timing options you can see the changes will happen immediately, in "real-time", with no problem and no need to reboot.


Quote
What I do is to apply the custom timings directly to the monitor's native res, so I tweak 1280x800 to have any custom refresh I want, i.e. 57.55 Hz for donpachi. Then I run Mame with -noswitchres -video d3d -syncrefresh options.

You do that with PowerStrip? Can you explain how can you set up arbitrary refresh rate? I can change it, sure, but I am still unable to produce exactly what I want, for example I can't make it do exact 60.00Hz refresh with any resolution. In any case, DoDonPachi seem too "busy" to look at and maybe it's not the best example, especially if you are testing on horizontal monitor and if you did not rotate the game sideways.

Please try Moon Patrol and watch for the letters or left edge of any hole.

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2011, 11:43:09 am »

What I do is to apply the custom timings directly to the monitor's native res, so I tweak 1280x800 to have any custom refresh I want, i.e. 57.55 Hz for donpachi. Then I run Mame with -noswitchres -video d3d -syncrefresh options.


Did you not mean to say "waitvsync" instead of "syncrefresh"?

So, what about waitvsync, frameskip, throttle, refreshspeed and triplebuffer?

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2011, 01:03:07 pm »
That's not "normal" condition, that's "SLOW COMPUTER" type of condition, and the test demonstrated my computer is fast enough. The case we are talking about clearly has nothing to do with ddraw settings and hardware acceleration, it is about WAITING for vertical refresh.
 
In 'normal conditions' different people will have different option enabled in those settings, they will also have different hardware and different drivers, while different programs will use different APIs, and some of those combinations will even behave differently with the same settings.

There is no "normal expected behavior", that's exactly why those OPTIONS are there, it's about USER CHOICE, and also to remedy the problem I mentioned above, which means to FORCE one behavior, or the other, despite all the possible conflicts between incompetent API, inadequate drivers and dumb video adapter. Therefore, and becasue of it, I actually can get very predictable results, as I described previously:

It seems to me I was too subtle in my previous post. Those options are there for the LAMER USER who is unable to make a proper setup of each individual application, or in the best case to be of help when dealing with lousy coded applications.

Quote
>> DELL Inspiron 1501 with WinXP and ATI Xpress 1150 (ver. 8.351.0.0)

The computer is fast enough, what is it you suspect? One of the first things I told you is how different hardware, different drivers, different APIs and different configurations and combinations can produce different results, that's why I said I would rather not trust what "software" thinks about any of it, especially if it's using Windows drivers and DirectX API.

I just wanted to discard you were using Windows 7 with some weird video card.

Quote
And so, how do you INITIALIZE *custom* resolutions and refresh rates then?

I thought you're using PowerStrip for that. What do you need PowerStrip for?

I use the Catalyst built in methods for doing that, as Soft-15Khz does. Where have you been all this time? Facebook?

Did you see my post with the three tests I did? First one only uses native Catalyst driver method for creating custom modes. Second and third use Powerstrip API to achieve the same results. I'm implementing Powerstrip support for people that use non-ATI cards.

Quote
Well, if you are using DirectX API then GPU and its Windows driver are like one and the same thing, so the point remains how applications that use DirectX API and Windows drivers have no real control of what is actually going on.

GPU? Do you have any idea of what a GPU is? (yeah, go for some reading to the wikipedia now).

Quote
Ok, so that particular deceitful computer of yours is not of any help, but that only opens new questions and undermines validity of the test results, while my original question is rather unrelated and is about whether you *can* get your software to calculate correct frame rate with some refresh above 60, like 75.8 or 77.1 fps with ANY COMPUTER AT ALL, and if scrolling still remains smooth?

Sure, I'll try that tonight and paste a complete report with pictures and stuff for your interest.

But the actual question here is: are you able at all to set up your system for any custom video timing?

Quote
Your study definitively needs to include "wait for vertical refresh" options in video driver settings, becasue it can override what application (API) may falsely believe is actually going on. -- How can you know what software tells you is not really a software related problem when you just agreed all those software layers are "black box" and even confirmed your own computer produces unreliable and unpredictable results on its own and by itself, while in the same time you have yet no idea why that mysterious feature would even exist and why would suddenly hardware stop obeying what software says?

Of course having a software layer in the middle is a problem and means some degree of uncertainty and a lot of work and study to get consistent results. That's an old story.

Wait for vertical refresh (actually v. retrace or blank) is what it is. You won't get different rates by "requesting" it from inside an app or forcing it from the driver options.

My computer does not produce unpredictable results. It's only unpredictable when you don't understand what's going on.

Quote
You mean it OVERRIDES "standard" resolutions by DIRECTLY accessing hardware video registers and setting custom timings which is what INITIALIZES video adapter so to make it produce/output "custom" resolutions and refresh rates, like this:

Code: [Select]
#define CRTC_INDEX          0x03d4   
#define H_BLANK_START       0x02
#define H_BLANK_END         0x03
#define H_RETRACE_START     0x04
#define H_RETRACE_END       0x05
#define V_RETRACE_END       0x11

    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_TOTAL, 0x6b);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_DISPLAY_END, 0x59);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_BLANK_START, 0x5a);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_BLANK_END, 0x8e);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_RETRACE_START, 0x5e);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, H_RETRACE_END, 0x8a);
    word_out(CRTC_INDEX, V_RETRACE_END, 0x8e);

...yes, that's what I think PowerStrip is doing, and the key word here is what you call "feeds the hardware ports", which is what I call DIRECTLY "accessing video registers", and that's also what makes it different from INDIRECTLY requesting such functionality via some API and Windows drivers.

You'll know that programming the CRTC is just one part of the process of initializing a video mode.

Quote
Windows video drivers do not support *custom* resolutions and refresh rates,

Then GroovyMame users must be under the effects of LSD.

Quote
you actually need to override what they do in order to define your own resolutions, where the real "API" for the task is VGA/VESA specification ("standard") which defines, more or less, basic low-level functionality you can then use to access those video registers directly and thus make your own custom timings, secretly and behind operating system, without any involvement, or even presence, of any video driver at all.

I know what VESA is, I used to code in assembly during the 90's, VESA modes, bank switching, yeah, in those days we used to *perform* our own wait for vertical retrace by listening to the hardware registers.

Quote
You do not need to restart computer in order to apply custom timings in PowerStrip. If you enable "Real-time adjustment" settings in advanced timing options you can see the changes will happen immediately, in "real-time", with no problem and no need to reboot.

Really? Even I can do "real-time adjustment" using Arcade_OSD and Catalyst without any Powerstrip at all.

But in order to define a *new* video mode and make it available for applications in the Windows system, you need to restart. The World would be a better place if this was different.

Quote
You do that with PowerStrip? Can you explain how can you set up arbitrary refresh rate? I can change it, sure, but I am still unable to produce exactly what I want, for example I can't make it do exact 60.00Hz refresh with any resolution.

HINT: dotclock granularity (search the Powerstrip forum)

Hey torino, I'm done.

YOU WIN

There's some additional inaccuracy in your statements that I could refute but honestly I'm tired and wouldn't be worth the effort as we would never reach an agreement. It's obvious that you have some good concepts floating in your head but there's a lot of smoke in the middle. I can't waste my energies with your personality development.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead of pasting it.

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lilshawn

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2011, 03:34:53 pm »
i like where this thread is going!

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2011, 08:04:32 pm »
Another thread destroyed, well done mate.  :applaud:


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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2011, 10:43:58 am »
It seems to me I was too subtle in my previous post. Those options are there for the LAMER USER who is unable to make a proper setup of each individual application, or in the best case to be of help when dealing with lousy coded applications.

The fact remains those options are there, and they can override application request to wait for vertical refresh.


Quote
I use the Catalyst built in methods for doing that, as Soft-15Khz does. Where have you been all this time? Facebook?

"Catalyst built in methods"? I can't find any info about it, can you be more specific please?

Can you show us few lines of code where I can see those "methods" you are talking about?


Quote
GPU? Do you have any idea of what a GPU is? (yeah, go for some reading to the wikipedia now).

GPU = graphics processing unit. What's confusing you?


Quote
Sure, I'll try that tonight and paste a complete report with pictures and stuff for your interest.

I am only helping you troubleshot your program, I don't mind if you choose to ignore your bugs.


Quote
But the actual question here is: are you able at all to set up your system for any custom video timing?

Yes, and your software calculates 60.2 fps when PowerStrip says it is 75.8 Hz, how is that possible?

I did additional tests as you suggested, I'm testing your program, how come you do not appreciate it?


Quote
Wait for vertical refresh (actually v. retrace or blank) is what it is. You won't get different rates by "requesting" it from inside an app or forcing it from the driver options.

I am talking about different FPS, which is what your application is measuring. You understand there is a difference? Output frame rate is that of initialized adapter resolution, but application *fps* count may not be the same and there will be TEARING instead of possible judder if "wait for vsync" is disabled either by application OR externally in driver settings. Ok?


Quote
My computer does not produce unpredictable results. It's only unpredictable when you don't understand what's going on.

You have not even attempted to explain it yet, and you sounded pretty surprised when your hardware failed to follow your orders and decided to "emulate" different resolutions on its own and by itself. The rise of the machines!

You said:
- I noticed that regardless the full screen resolution I set with Arcade_OSD, it always read the same values for xres, yres

- It turns out that different resolutions are emulated!


You call that predictable, you understand why it happens, and you will tell us about it eventually, or not?


Quote
Really? Even I can do "real-time adjustment" using Arcade_OSD and Catalyst without any Powerstrip at all.

Sorry, that does not work on my computer. I am just asking questions, why are you emotional about it?

Can you please tell us how do you initialize custom timings, just show me few lines of source code, ok?


Quote
HINT: dotclock granularity (search the Powerstrip forum)

Ay, caramba! You don't know it either, I can read your mind!

Being mysterious is not helping explain and validate your claims.


Quote
Hey torino, I'm done.

YOU WIN

You are left with bugs and dubious claims, while I wasted time and learned almost nothing new.

We all lose, my human friend.


Quote
There's some additional inaccuracy in your statements that I could refute but honestly I'm tired and wouldn't be worth the effort as we would never reach an agreement. It's obvious that you have some good concepts floating in your head but there's a lot of smoke in the middle. I can't waste my energies with your personality development.

In that case I can not help you prove your claims or troubleshoot your program anymore, I am sorry.


Quote
Hey torino, please don't be so delicate, we're debating aren't we?

Your future-self had enough. Toughen up and come back when you ready, Silk-girl!

Fluff off now, go back to feathery clouds, and stay out of the rain, my silky sugar-fluff.  :P

lilshawn

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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2011, 11:50:24 am »
okay, i found it... this is or is not the part of the monitor that makes all or some of the magics happen.
It does both or more or less the jobs if not more or less with about 100.01% efficiency.


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Re: Thoughts on new 9000 Series LCD from Wells Gardner?
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2012, 02:53:43 am »
I am very sad this was never resolved. Though, I had a great time reading through it.

I don't know near enough about this sort of thing to understand most of this but here was what I got out of it:
torino was able to get his LCD to preform tests well at variable sync rates. However, he was not able to get any of his actual games to scroll smoothly.

This leaves me with the obvious question:
Has anyone been able to get an LCD to run games through MAME at varying sync rates?

Thanks,
 - Mike

EDIT:
Also, on the Wells Gardner website, it gives the following specs for their WGF2679-SSAS25H monitor:
Resolution: 15-70KHZ CGA/EGA/VGA

15-70KHZ? Can it be?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 03:08:43 am by yo1dog »