how to get better quality?

[Funnel]

Ok so im making my own mame cab and i've been hard at work testing some games on my pc and i've noticed some of the games have a very crappy quality, take Yiear kung fu and Rygar for example. They look like a pixelated nightmare but the games are awesome! So is there anyway I can get a better picture quality? Any help is appreciated

[RayB]

They are what they are. You know, kinda like how Pong is just white bars and a square for a ball cuz that's all the technology was capable of.

[GaryMcT]

Either:
1) ArcadeVGA card + arcade monitor
or
2) soft15khz + supported card (dig up the German forum thread that has a list of all the known good cards) along with an arcade monitor that also supports default Windows resolution (Wells Gardner D9500 for instance.)

Either will get the games looking like they used to.  ArcadeVGA is probably the easiest route, although you still won't get the right refresh rates in Windows in general and may either have to deal with tearing or a retimed game or audio.  If the tearing bugs you, give cabmame a try along with all the above.

With vsync or triple buffering (to remove tearing artifacts), Mame as it is doesn't deal very well with games that expect a higher refresh rate than what your monitor is running at.  This is fixable, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

[GaryMcT]

I've also started on a better CRT emulation for modern monitors, but it'll probably be a while before I get back to it.  Basically, a lowres game using the typical bilinear filter to upscale or point-sampling looks terrible (in my opinion) compared to the original game on the CRT monitor.  This is why Robotron on a TV on xbox live looks terrible compared to what you remember it looking like, for instance.

[MaximRecoil]

If you want them to look good, get a standard resolution CRT-based arcade monitor. That is what they were meant to be displayed on. Keep in mind that arcade monitors are not "plug and play" with a PC, but there are solutions available such as the Ultimarc ArcadeVGA video card and Soft-15KHz software (you may need to do some research).

[Funnel]

Thanks GaryMct im new to all of this. I read somewhere that ArcadeVga is a videocard is that so? What exactly does it do?

[GaryMcT]

ArcadeVGA is an ATI-based video card from Ultimarc that has a driver that supports the low-resolutions modes that you'll need to run the old games at the original resolutions.  It also defaults to a resolution that old arcade monitors can deal with when it boots up in Windows.  If you use a regular video card, you'll get an unsynced signal on many arcade monitors when booting.

If you decide to get one of these, make sure you get the right kind for your machine.  They have an AGP version and a PCI-Express version. . only one of them'll work in your machine.

[Funnel]

I'd really love to get an arcade monitor but that's wayyyy out of my budget, given the fact that i'm only 16 and relying on allowance money. I knew that this wasn't going to be cheap but I figured that it is somethin I would like to do.

[GaryMcT]

You might be able to find a used multisync monitor for really really cheap that'll get you close enough and be able to run the original resolutions.  Also, used arcade monitors aren't that expensive, are they?  I've only bought new ones, so I don't know.

There are also some mods in some of the mame versions to add scanlines, etc, that might be good enough for what you are looking for.

[Funnel]

Thanks a lot dude! I think i'll go with the ArcadeVga card, since I already have a somewhat big crt monitor (21 inch) I guess i'll be going with the videocard

[GaryMcT]

What kind of monitor are you going to use with it?  If you monitor doesn't support the 15KHz modes, it isn't going to help.ffffffff

[Funnel]

It's an AOC 21 inch Pc monitor. About the refresh rate and all I cant really tell cause I dont even know

[GaryMcT]

Is it LCD or CRT?  I would assume that an ArcadeVGA isn't going to help and won't run the lowres modes on there.  Might just want to try mameui or something similar and see if any of the screen effects make it look better for you.

[Funnel]

Sorry for the late reply Gary. It's a CRT. So the videocard wouldn't be of much help?

[GaryMcT]

It'll help if the monitor supports the low res modes.  What kind of video card do you have?  You may want to try soft15KHz if it works well with your card/driver.  I don't think ArcadeVGA is necessary for you since you don't need the always be in the 15KHz modes like you do with an arcade monitor.

[Funnel]

Ok i'll check what type of videocard I have later. How do I make it soft 15hz? oh well as you said earlier that may depend on the videocard i have...

[GaryMcT]

Search for soft15khz on the byoac wiki and on these forums. . there is info here about it.  I think there is a link on the wiki to a thread on a German forum listing cards that work well with it.

[tomdotcom]

If your using a PC monitor you don't need the arcadeVGA or soft15. That's basically only if your using an arcade monitor.

[GaryMcT]

If your using a PC monitor you don't need the arcadeVGA or soft15. That's basically only if your using an arcade monitor.

You do if you want to run at the original resolution of the game (if your monitor is multisync and will support it.)

[tomdotcom]

True that, just saying he doesn't NEED it for it to work that's all. Whereas an arcade monitor HAS to have it or software15 to run

[GaryMcT]

True that, just saying he doesn't NEED it for it to work that's all. Whereas an arcade monitor HAS to have it or software15 to run

He's saying that his games look bad as they are, so I guess "want" is a better word.

[Funnel]

Yeah I want them to look better dude. If I have a chance to make them look swell then I guess I feel obligated to take a crack at it. I think I'm gonna visit the byoac wiki.

[Beretta]

indeed pc monitors are to high resolution, they show just how "blocky" it is..

arcade monitors, or baring that a tv will give the best picture (best = like they originally was in the arcade)

[Ummon]

Funnel - monitor wiki - know much more than white man.

[Haze]

but really, they just blur all the pixels so that you can't see the sharp edges.

no monitor or videocard is going to increase the resolution, or add additional detail to characters, or anything else to make them look 'better' when compared to modern games.

you can use filters, or special effects in various other builds, but again, none of them will actually increase the resolution of the source graphics, they just add various levels of blur and interpolation to hide the rough edges.

it sounds like he wants them to look like the modern pop cap games, or even most of the modern flash games, and that simply isn't going to happen regardless of what you throw at them.

[Funnel]

I went to the monitor wiki, yeah I'm screwed. I read that most people go with using TV's. @ Haze : I dont want them to look like modern games I just want them to look good.

[bkenobi]

A cheap solution to make things look a little more blurry is to put Vaseline on your eyes.  It will last for quite a while since it's not water based.   

[tomdotcom]

I've had 3 different arcade cabs over the years. I still own 2 of them. One had a TV, my 2nd has an arcade monitor and my 3rd has an LCD.

I like all 3 to be honest. I don't notice a HUGE difference.

I have seen the side by side comparisons people have done and it's obvious that an arcade monitor looks the most original and best by far.

But I guess I'm just not that nitpicky about it, cause all 3 options have worked great for me.

Arcade monitor was a bit of a ---smurfette--- to get setup properly..only downfall

Lcd/TV are simple for anyone to do.

Just my 2 cents.

LCD is nice to have for for a thinner style cab, also PC games look great on it.

[RayB]

Someone explain to him hot to turn on the filters and then that should be good enough for him.

[Funnel]

OK I'll turn on the filters

[GaryMcT]

I've had 3 different arcade cabs over the years. I still own 2 of them. One had a TV, my 2nd has an arcade monitor and my 3rd has an LCD.

I like all 3 to be honest. I don't notice a HUGE difference.

I have seen the side by side comparisons people have done and it's obvious that an arcade monitor looks the most original and best by far.

But I guess I'm just not that nitpicky about it, cause all 3 options have worked great for me.

Arcade monitor was a bit of a ---smurfette--- to get setup properly..only downfall

Lcd/TV are simple for anyone to do.

Just my 2 cents.

LCD is nice to have for for a thinner style cab, also PC games look great on it.

I suspect that since he is saying that it doesn't look good to him , that he is more sensitive to image quality than you are.  To my eyes, arcade games look vastly different when comparing them on an LCD versus an arcade monitor.  The arcade monitor has more artificial high-frequency data due to the dot pattern to make it not look so blurry.

[tomdotcom]

Yes I know what an arcade monitor does. vs lcd vs tv etcetc

 But the LCD also looks fine. It's not like the games are unplayable. It's hardly even noticeable for any average person.

Ya we might know the difference but the average Joe Blow does not.

I think he has other issues besides just using a PC monitor anyhow...

I'm not saying that LCD or TV's are better. Of course we all want the best graphics quality. But he said he can't afford an arcade monitor. So that ain't gonna happen...

[MaximRecoil]

but really, they just blur all the pixels so that you can't see the sharp edges.

By "they" do you mean an arcade monitor? If so, "blur" isn't a good word. An arcade monitor in good condition and properly adjusted actually gives a nice, sharp image. However, the dot pitch is much more course than that of a PC monitor, and the triad shadow mask is more course as well. You also have some minor blending effects that go on between adjacent phosphors. This all results in a smoothing effect on the old crude graphics, and it is very natural looking and easy on the eyes; unlike a blur, which inherently tends to bother the eyes.

A CRT arcade monitor makes the Pac-Man character look round for example, while a CRT or LCD PC monitor makes the Pac-Man character look like it was built with blocks (sharp-edged stairstepping).

Another way to put it would be; a CRT arcade monitor results in sort of a natural anti-aliasing effect for all color transitions; and it looks much better than any known artificial method for trying to accomplish a similar thing.

[GaryMcT]

but really, they just blur all the pixels so that you can't see the sharp edges.

By "they" do you mean an arcade monitor? If so, "blur" isn't a good word. An arcade monitor in good condition and properly adjusted actually gives a nice, sharp image. However, the dot pitch is much more course than that of a PC monitor, and the triad shadow mask is more course as well. You also have some minor blending effects that go on between adjacent phosphors. This all results in a smoothing effect on the old crude graphics, and it is very natural looking and easy on the eyes; unlike a blur, which inherently tends to bothers the eyes.

A CRT arcade monitor makes the Pac-Man character look round for example, while a CRT or LCD PC monitor makes the Pac-Man character look like it was built with blocks (sharp-edged stairstepping).

Another way to put it would be; a CRT arcade monitor results in sort of a natural anti-aliasing effect for all color transitions; and it looks much better than any known artificial method for trying to accomplish a similar thing.

Yes!  CRT monitors are the best (probably unintentional) upscaler that I know of.   At some point I'll get a sim of this in Mame to help out those that don't have them.  There is a common misconception that these old games were blurry when they were not on the target display.