just a mame rant

[speedklz]

Why with every new release of mame with all the cool new features I have to have do the roms all have to change, why cant it just be so easy and use the old roms...

Just a rant.....to ease the mind.

[MaximRecoil]

I've never understood that either. ROM files are supposed to contain the same data as the ROM chips from the actual game, so where's the room for change? I understand that "bad dumps" can happen, but you'd think that'd be a rare exception. Isn't there any way to verify that the ROM file is an exact copy of the ROM chip?

[mrbones]

I feel the same way. I'm building a new cabinet and thought I'd put the latest release on it. I go to test my trackball on Marble Madness and it doesn't work because the ROM has changed. I put back the MAME version I had from '06 (.111 I think) and it works. I'm just going to use that as I'm through chasing ROMs down again.

[bkenobi]

There are others who could explain better, but basically:

• Redump (one or more of the chips was bad/missing/etc)
• New version (as new versions are discovered, the parent rom might be changed say from USA v.1 to USA v.2)
• Other (probably more reasons, but those are the big 2 I know of)

You can always keep your old roms and just update the MAME executable, but you will start having problems with more games not working as versions progress.

[CheffoJeffo]

There was a posting that I read somewhere a few years ago that explained the situation reasonably well and mentioned stuff like simply renaming the individual ROM files as the drivers are refined/fixed, as well as issues with merged and split ROM sets. I can't find the posting, but it did make some sense to me at the time.

One thing is for certain -- it will continue to happen and the MAMEDevs are happy with it being that way.

I just don't update frequently and start locking configurations as they go into cabinets.

[Beretta]

besides bad dumps my understanding is they dont change per say, they just get reorganized..

but i agree it is truly a headache if you are trying to support more then one version.

perhaps this would not be as big a deal if they left older (less accurate but better preforming) drivers in mame.. so you could select which version of the driver you wanted.

imo mames mission is actually in conflict..

their mission is to emulate the games as faithfully as possible.. this leads to the situation we have where tricks to speed up the game are either not used, and do not take advantage of hardware.. IE: video card makes very little difference on 3d games.

do  really care if internally the math was originally (32/4) - (1*5) + 1 = 4? rather then 2+2?, not really!

this is'nt such a big deal with older games as even as sub optimal the code is it can be brute forced with modern systems.. the newer say 2000+ games especially the 3d ones can only be played on top end systems that are further overclocked and even then not all are playable.

thankfully the situation will get easier with time, but still it beggs the question if none of the games was playable, but accurately emulated, would they stick with their mission statement?

what is the point of emulating something that can't be used?

further more how can a emulation ever be "accurate'? as by definition it is a copy or mimic.

i'd also like to see them implement a way to get OUT put from mame, IE: coin door coil locks, some game used flashing lights (keyboards only have 3), recoil (force feedback) coils, ticket dispensers, and what about games that had link play? i think it should be coded for null serial connections, or TCP/UDP, i understand they're not concerned for netplay but on those games that had linked play i dont see any reason to keep them standalone.

i know it sounds like nothing but complaints but i am grateful for mame despite it's problems, no other emulator can match it's list of supported games.

[CheffoJeffo]

thankfully the situation will get easier with time, but still it beggs the question if none of the games was playable, but accurately emulated, would they stick with their mission statement?

You've never heard Aaron speak on the subject, have you ?











I would also imagine that it would become pretty much impossible to defend the murky legal waters if they dropped the mantle of academic exercise, departed from their stated mission and started making these copyright-protected games playable just to be playable.

[bkenobi]

It is an interesting question you just raised.  If noone could emulate the game, what would be the point of emulating it.  Meaning, if noone can run it the way it originally was built, it's not accurately emulated, is it?  I know the point of the project is to keep these games from being lost, but you could do that by simply dumping the roms and walking away, couldn't you?  Seems like if you want people to care, you need to let them see how the game looked in it's original form...playing at full speed with all the bells, whistles, linked-machines, etc.

I have no complaints about what the MAMEdevs have chosen to do as I am not a participating member of their club (I simply watch from the sidelines).  This is their project, so it's not my place.  

[Beretta]

thankfully the situation will get easier with time, but still it beggs the question if none of the games was playable, but accurately emulated, would they stick with their mission statement?

You've never heard Aaron speak on the subject, have you ?


I would also imagine that it would become pretty much impossible to defend the murky legal waters if they dropped the mantle of academic exercise, departed from their stated mission and started making these copyright-protected games playable just to be playable.

nope i dont follow mame dev's every move, in fact i dont follow any moves.

it does'nt matter what they do.. it's their project and as long as i can find a use for it i will.. thats the limit of my interest in it's development.

as for the "mantle of academic exercise" this wont save you.. there have been lots of projects in the past that have been threatened with legal action, often enough these are students doing research.

beyond that if you think the system requirements of the games it emulates affords it some protection you're dead wrong.

fact is it's a much easier case to go after someone distributing roms then going after an emulator development team.

lets not kid our selves, we all like and use mame to us they're saving the classics, but thats about it, this is'nt some noble cause that everyone steps aside in awe.

[bkenobi]

After watching the first video, I think I understand something new.  I thought MAME was primarily about the roms and keeping them preserved.  I forgot that the hardware isn't just a cpu and some ram, but sometimes MUCH more complex.  As such, the hardware is as important to the MAMEdevs, if not more important, than the software (roms).

Thanks for the links!  Anyone have a copy of the slides Aaron is pointing to?

[Ginsu Victim]

CheffoJeffo:
Thanks for the videos. I'd never seen those. I didn't really learn anything new, but those would be awesome to have stickied in the FAQ/n00b section of this forum.

[clok]

Loved watching those, YOUTUBE does havea  use besides silly stuff! Very worthwile to listen to (i thought).

[hypernova]

I hate how long it takes to audit roms using clrmame.  I'm a censored by saint member, and just update it every few releases.  I don't bother auditing the damn things because of the massive amount of time it takes.  I can download the updated roms faster than auditing them.  Each new release starts me out at about 87.5% or so it seems.

[CheffoJeffo]

Tsk, tsk ... no talking about where you get ROMS ... 

[Endaar]

i'd also like to see them implement a way to get OUT put from mame, IE: coin door coil locks, some game used flashing lights (keyboards only have 3), recoil (force feedback) coils, ticket dispensers

That functionality is there in limited capacity. Actually if I understand it properly, all the code is there to get this type of data out of MAME to do something with it, but not many of the drivers actually support it.

It's possible in Afterburner II for example to light up an LED when a missle is locked-on. If I ever get my cabinet finished, I'll have that setup along with a few others I have in mind.

Endaar

[DJ_Izumi]

MAME's lack of High Level Emulation, while obviously a HUGE consumer of CPU resources is also an advantage.  With HLE emulators, the settings can vary greatly by game and by hardware, some graphics cards or combinations just flat out won't work.  As MAME just pushes all the math through the general purpose CPU, this means that the drivers are universal.  This also makes porting MAME to other platforms and host CPU languages far, far, FAR easier.

It's a double edged sword really.

[smalltownguy]

I've been using the ledutil functions of mame to drive some OEM Atari volcano buttons on my cab, using my minipac. I get the expected blinking on coinup in the Atari games. Pretty slick.

[BORIStheBLADE]

I do agree its kind of a pain in the butt, thats why I'm still on .124. But, I will say though I do appreciate the fact that this stuff exists.

[jtslade]

Pretty much get a version of MAME you like then DL the full romset from somewhere that matches and stick with that until the day comes that that must have new game that you have been dying for and can't live without gets emulated at near to or full speed and DL the new version of MAME and the full romset all over again.

The trick would be to ask yourself when the "whatsnew.txt" file shows up, you read through the
upgraded to "working" status.. and ask .... "is that THE must have game that will make me have to update my whole romset?"

If the answer is no then your good to go.

I would think most people only do a full rom refresh once or twice a year. With DL's of the update packs in between.

Just a guess.

[Ginsu Victim]

Once you have a full romset, it's easy to update just the files that need updated. I haven't updated since .127, even though I did get .131 just to seed, then deleted it.

[RyoriNoTetsujin]

It's too bad I'm at work, I'd love to watch those vids.  My general policy is that, when it comes to all things regarding the MAMEDevs, if you're not already on the team, it's best to just sit back and enjoy the ride...  let that Ivory Tower do all its' dark alchemy in peace and quiet... 

I'm definitely of the camp that stops/stopped ROM hunting when "the must have game" becomes playable.

For me it was CPS3 emulation, so... MAME .119,  I think?

That said, Ginsu is right, it is pretty easy to maintain the romset if you so choose.

* RyoriNoTetsujin waits for someone to come back with "Hey, don't you know xxxx is playable now??"

[mh12]

Pretty much get a version of MAME you like then DL the full romset from somewhere that matches and stick with that until the day comes that that must have new game that you have been dying for and can't live without gets emulated at near to or full speed and DL the new version of MAME and the full romset all over again.

OR when that happens, download the new MAME and just the game you wanted to play, and keep running everything else on the version you already have working well for yourself. unless, you know, they suddenly optimize the whole thing for better playability.   

i'm sure there are guides here for running many versions of MAME in any frontend you like. i just use a batch file through MaLa, which is simple. i'm at MAME .128 and later installed .99 just to get a handful of things running better.

[Ginsu Victim]

mh12:
Yeah, I'm running .127 and .84 from the same list in Mamewah. Some games, like Defender, play easier in an older version because of control hacks.