You too can do KILLER vectors at 15khz!!

[Ummon]

Okay, 16.5khz. Remember to click inside each image after clicking on them.

[telengard]

Do tell, do tell...   

Black Widow is one of my favorites!

Even without the tweaks I like vectors on my arcade monitor better than on the PC monitor for some reason.  The games with background art don't look so great though (Asteroids Deluxe, etc).

~telengard

[Level42]

?

All I see is jaggy lines like any vector game on a raster monitor.

[CheffoJeffo]

Monitor looks nice enough, buy those are hardly killer vectors.

[ChadTower]

?

All I see is jaggy lines like any vector game on a raster monitor.

It should be pretty clear by now this guy is a troll. 

[Ginsu Victim]

It DOES look nicer than how most vector games turn out on a CRT.

[RayB]

Would be nice if the guy bothered to post more than just a series of snapshots which all look the same to me. 

[Malenko]

Monitor looks nice enough, but those are hardly killer vectors.

x2

EDIT:Fixed Cheffo's typo, lol

[FrizzleFried]

Unimpressed frankly.   

[RandyT]

Needs more interlace....

[Jack Burton]

That's a high quality image, but nothing like a Vector monitor. 

But I see that you have maximized the abilities of a arcade raster monitor.  Is 16.5 the absolute highest resolution you could push your monitor to Ummon?  I wonder if a few other monitors out there are capable of slightly more?  Or how it would look interlaced, but at higher resolutions?

[Level42]

Resistance is futile. And so is trying to emulate a vector.

[RandyT]

Resistance is futile. And so is trying to emulate a vector.

I don't know that I would go THAT far.  Some of the newer technologies are capable of some pretty bright images, and they are already doing it above the resolution associated with the coarse dot-pitch of the monitors that were used (remember, we are talking about color vector, not mono).

I'd like to see one of those LED backlit LCD panels doing vector emulation.  I'll bet it's a real treat.

RandyT

[genesim]

When people say that it doesn't look that impressive....have we forgot that we are looking at the effect through different monitors?

Getting back, the new Sony 120hz LCD's with super white are pretty dang bright.    So much so, that at times I get a brightness that feels like I am looking into the sun.   Never tried vector graphics, but I suspect it might have positive results.   I know this much, I had to turn down my HDTV's brightness.

[CheffoJeffo]

When people say that it doesn't look that impressive....have we forgot that we are looking at the effect through different monitors?

Monitor looks nice enough, buy those are hardly killer vectors.

That's a high quality image, but nothing like a Vector monitor. 

Monitor looks nice enough, but those are hardly killer vectors.

x2

EDIT:Fixed Cheffo's typo, lol

Resistance is futile. And so is trying to emulate a vector.

I don't know that I would go THAT far.  Some of the newer technologies are capable of some pretty bright images, and they are already doing it above the resolution associated with the coarse dot-pitch of the monitors that were used (remember, we are talking about color vector, not mono).

I'd like to see one of those LED backlit LCD panels doing vector emulation.  I'll bet it's a real treat.

RandyT

No, it would seem that it EXACTLY what we are talking about ... so far, there really aren't any options that compare to a true vector monitor, although I agree with RandyT that some of the newer stuff coming may be much nicer that we have seen before.

[RayB]

Getting back, the new Sony 120hz LCD's with super white are pretty dang bright.    So much so, that at times I get a brightness that feels like I am looking into the sun.   Never tried vector graphics, but I suspect it might have positive results.   I know this much, I had to turn down my HDTV's brightness.

You probably still have it in "store mode". For some reason they have store demo modes where the contrast is super exagerrated. But your point still stands. They ARE capable of very bright imagery.

I agree with RandyT that some of the newer stuff coming may be much nicer that we have seen before.

Not coming... but available NOW. Check out Geometry Wars 2 on an XBOX connected to a good 1080i or 1080p LCD TV. It's as pretty and convincing as a real vector arcade game.

[RandyT]

Not coming... but available NOW. Check out Geometry Wars 2 on an XBOX connected to a good 1080i or 1080p LCD TV. It's as pretty and convincing as a real vector arcade game.

The reason I mention the LED backlit stuff is that they are capable of true blacks.  So marrying the super bright, hi-res output of an LCD panel, with a contrast level not possible before, and you are liable to get a heck of a simulation.  Normal LCD panels don't have the black levels to pull it off at high brightness.

RandyT

[1UP]

I wish Ummon would explain what we're looking at here.  If the screen is interlacing to get sharper vectors, it's not apparent and will probably be hard to capture with a camera unless you set it to the same refresh as the screen (1/60 sec for example).

[Ummon]

Ahem. Most people claim that vector games seen at 15khz, or say on a TV, blow. Well they do (on the latter, and regular mame can't even fit them to the screen at 15khz)....unless you have the proper emulator to display them with. Advancemame, of course.

This isn't 'hey, look how good this is compared to a PC monitor or LCD', let alone a vector monitor. It's 'look how good it can be if you're constrained to CGA resolutions'.

Do tell, do tell...   

Black Widow is one of my favorites!

Even without the tweaks I like vectors on my arcade monitor better than on the PC monitor for some reason.  The games with background art don't look so great though (Asteroids Deluxe, etc).

~telengard

Mmm, I hadn't thought of that. It's not something I concern myself with much, as mostly I run vectors at 640x480 and am fine with that aspect at that resolution. Admittedly, at a lower res it ain't great, but it's the best you can get with a CGA monitor.

[pinballwizard79]

I dont know what any of this tech talk is.

Me well I just like to get drunk & play games. My concerns are more about authentic controls, cool artwork & a properly running rom.

So Ummon I agree that looks good, no need for a vector.

[genesim]

Though this is likely to start another LCD war...from what I understand the newer LCD's have contrast ratios well over 50,000:1 so that whole black isn't as black crap isn't true anymore.

For my money, I had a 2000 dollar Plasma and I currently have a 3000 dollar LCD and the differenc in blacks was NADA.   

But the light on the Plasma was not near the quality because I don't remember it ever hurting my eyes and I turned it all the way up for my own reference.

I know one thing the habit of many is to quote stats from years ago in regards to LCD instead of  paying attention to new technology that has greatly improved the capability in as little as a years time.

I do get the concept though that a light shining behind a filter is going to be hard to produce black as dark as it should be...but at the same time it sure looks great.

[genesim]

I guess the end result is this...LCD's will produce a better bright setting and the black difference is neglible if you get a high end model.

Yet a Plasma which supposedly gives you the best picture is going to produce a better black.   Tit for tat, I think the brightess of the Vector graphic matters the most.

The newest LCD's produce better image overall IMHO.   This is from owning all of the above visual display units and not just repeating what I hear.

[pinballwizard79]

You are starting trouble

[Xiaou2]

 A Laser (or set of lasers)  would be a much better Vector display alternative.

[DJ_Izumi]

The forum moderators either need to ban genesim or ban all discussions of monitors because clearly the two can't coexist. :/

[XeviouS]

What I would like to know is how do you achieve bright clear white vector lines with Asteroids on an LCD monitor?

I can't even see the bullets on my screen 

[genesim]

Sorry but when Randy quotes the old mantra that LCD's cannot produce deep blacks, I am going to call it.

50,000:1 contrast ratio IMHO is dark enough.

I don't know how that equates to that I should be banned.   

xxxxx

What I would like to know is how do you achieve bright clear white vector lines with Asteroids on an LCD monitor?

I can't even see the bullets on my screen

What is your model number and I will tell you how.     One LCD is not the same as another.   700:1 contrast is not going to give you the same results.

[XeviouS]

What is your model number and I will tell you how.     One LCD is not the same as another.   700:1 contrast is not going to give you the same results.

It was a cheapie at the time I bought it about 5 years ago. I just revisited the game a few moments ago - it's not as bad as I seemed to remember it. The asteroids are a bit dim mainly because they flicker somewhat as they are moving across the screen, but the main problem is still the bullets as they only seem to consist of one pixel each. The players ship and the enemy space ships are very vivid and easy to see. I'm guessing that my problem is that the monitor is just not up to scratch - all other games look great on it though!

Model: CMV poyview V293
    *  Device Type Flat panel display / TFT active matrix
    * Diagonal Size 19"
    * Viewable Size 19"
    * Max Resolution 1280 x 1024 / SXGA
    * Brightness 330cd/m2
    * Response time 21ms (Tr+Tf)
    * Compliant Standards TCO '99
    * Power Consumption Operational 51 Watt
    * Colour Support Up to 16.2 million colors
    * Colour Silver
    * Dot Pitch / Pixel Pitch 0.26 mm
    * Built in Stereo Speakers 2 x 2.5W
    * Contrast Ratio 800:1
    * Dimensions (WxDxH) 418 x 431 x 232 mm
    * Weight 4.6 kg
    * Power AC 110/230 V ( 50/60 Hz ) 19VDC 3.42A

*update*: just worked out the game is much more playable at night time with all the lights are turned out - much easier to see the bullets (though still small and dim)

[Xiaou2]

 
Xevious,    it could be the most new and expensive LCD on the planet... and
you would still have the same problem with the bullets being dim.

 A vector monitor draws completely different.  I believe they re-draw the bullet
a lot more times per second than any other object... and when a vector beam is
left in one spot for a long time... it will be incredibly bright.     This does not happen
on an LCD.

 There should at least be a simulated effect added to mame that people can enable...
where as the bullets are brighter, and the rest of the objects drawn a little dimmer.
A tranlucent Glow could also be added around the bullets. Collision would still be
for the one pixel.


 Also, for the record,  I dont think the contrast levels will surpass tube tvs.  Especially vectors.  Their brightness levels are insane.   Heck...My sony CRT hdtv is so bright
that when showing people "Weld"  things (OCC) - that I have to look away... else I feel my eyes are going to burn up.

[XeviouS]

Xevious,    it could be the most new and expensive LCD on the planet... and
you would still have the same problem with the bullets being dim.

 A vector monitor draws completely different.  I believe they re-draw the bullet
a lot more times per second than any other object... and when a vector beam is
left in one spot for a long time... it will be incredibly bright.     This does not happen
on an LCD.

 There should at least be a simulated effect added to mame that people can enable...
where as the bullets are brighter, and the rest of the objects drawn a little dimmer.
A tranlucent Glow could also be added around the bullets. Collision would still be
for the one pixel.


 Also, for the record,  I dont think the contrast levels will surpass tube tvs.  Especially vectors.  Their brightness levels are insane.   Heck...My sony CRT hdtv is so bright
that when showing people "Weld"  things (OCC) - that I have to look away... else I feel my eyes are going to burn up.

Thanks for the reply X, that makes me feel a whole lot better about using a cheap/old monitor in my cabinet. I was thinking the same thing about how the Mame Guru's should add a "LCD enhance" option to the settings of these vector games for exactly these reasons. Well, it's only one game out of thousands and the rest of the games look great on my monitor, so I'll quit my complaining. 

[genesim]

I jacked up the gamma to the highest setting and all I can say is WOW.   My cheapie LCD has a better image when done this way, but not near my 120hz LCD.

From playing Asteroids many times this is as close as I have seen.

Also for the black levels, again I have several tv sets and CRT's in the house and putting them side by side...there is no difference in black level.  NONE.  But the light levels not even close. 

I guess we all can all believe what we want, but I have owned all of them and I am speaking from physical experience.   

The brightness on the LCD is the best I have ever seen.    Of course having the software that truly utilized it is another story.   Alot of bluray's I understand are encoded to take advantage of the "superwhite" but I admit this is beyond my experience.   I just turn it on.   Certain Planet Earth scenes sure look bright.    If this isn't bright enough, then call me satisfied anyway.   

[XeviouS]

I jacked up the gamma to the highest setting and all I can say is WOW.   My cheapie LCD has a better image when done this way, but not near my 120hz LCD.

I went looking for a gamma setting on my monitor and there wasn't one. There was however a menu item called "Phase" which I have never touched before, and adjusting this setting altered the focus of the vector graphics making them noticably sharper. Now the bullets are quite easy to see compared to what they were (though still not as bright as I'd like them). Bottom line is the game is now quite playable, so thanks for leading me in the right direction! 

As an aside, just played a game of "Rip Off". The vector graphics on that one look sweet on the LCD, with clear and obvious bullets - if they can do it on Rip Off, why can't they do it on Asteroids............

[genesim]

Glad things worked out.   

It finally hit me what people meant by "bullets".   

In the back of my mind I always thought there were harder to see, but with the new settings I was paying attention to all the other stuff more that I didn't look harder at the stuff coming out of the ship on Asteroids!

Yes it is indeed improved.    Though I have never had a problem with my cheap LCD.   The black is not as black as it should be, but I still like how it looks without glare.    I cut a hole in my bezel and got it to have zero glare that way.   But it sacrfices safety, but I don't plan on throwing anything at it and with LCD's going for less then a hundred, I will take my chances.

[TheShanMan]

Ahem. Most people claim that vector games seen at 15khz, or say on a TV, blow. Well they do (on the latter, and regular mame can't even fit them to the screen at 15khz)....unless you have the proper emulator to display them with. Advancemame, of course.

This isn't 'hey, look how good this is compared to a PC monitor or LCD', let alone a vector monitor. It's 'look how good it can be if you're constrained to CGA resolutions'.

You didn't explain yourself, hence the responses. You said "killer vectors" without saying that you're comparing it to what you'd normally see in mame. So of course you're going to get a lot of responses from vector purists saying they aren't so killer.

[CheffoJeffo]

Ahem. Most people claim that vector games seen at 15khz, or say on a TV, blow. Well they do (on the latter, and regular mame can't even fit them to the screen at 15khz)....unless you have the proper emulator to display them with. Advancemame, of course.

This isn't 'hey, look how good this is compared to a PC monitor or LCD', let alone a vector monitor. It's 'look how good it can be if you're constrained to CGA resolutions'.

You didn't explain yourself, hence the responses. You said "killer vectors" without saying that you're comparing it to what you'd normally see in mame. So of course you're going to get a lot of responses from vector purists saying they aren't so killer.

It is interesting that at least one of those purists once posted an opinion very similar to Ummon's and I replied that he should play on a real vector monitor, then come back and tell me how awesome vector games are on a Std Res raster monitor. Now that he has owned a couple of vectors his opinion has changed.

For my part, if you are satisfied with your display, then that is great. Hell, I've been playing Major Havoc on a G07 because I only have one emulator machine with appropriate controls right now -- it ain't bad and it looks OK considering what I am working with, but it ain't anything like a real vector monitor ... or even a nice LCD.

[EwJ]

What I would like to know is how do you achieve bright clear white vector lines with Asteroids on an LCD monitor?

I can't even see the bullets on my screen 

Please ignore if you have already played with these basic settings:

Have you played with the vector beam width and intensity settings in mame?
With a value of about 3.00 for both, Asteroids looks (what I consider) 'acceptable' on my particular LCD.
The bullets are definitely visible and all lines clear and bright.

Specs:Mame32 v0.105
Mame32 Resolution settings set to monitor's native res/refresh,
Stretch using h/w set to monitors aspect ratio (16:10).
Full Screen Brightness: 1.00
Dell 2405FPW (DVI)

Of course this is after setting up the basics  - running in native res, digital connection, adjust settings through monitor's menu, adjust settings through display properties for vid. card - brightness, contrast, gamma, etc .

[genesim]

I jacked up the Gamma and Contrast with great results.   The default MAME are way too dull.  Bullets look awesome on my high end LCD but the lower end is still very acceptable.

[XeviouS]

Have you played with the vector beam width and intensity settings in mame?
With a value of about 3.00 for both, Asteroids looks (what I consider) 'acceptable' on my particular LCD.
The bullets are definitely visible and all lines clear and bright.

I'm not running Mame 32, just standard Mame with Maximus Arcade frontend. Is there any way of adjusting the vector settings without Mame 32 ?

[EwJ]

I'm not running Mame 32, just standard Mame with Maximus Arcade frontend. Is there any way of adjusting the vector settings without Mame 32 ?

Should be in your mame.ini - look near the bottom for vector options.

To add to this - from John Hardy's mame32 pages from about 5 yrs ago regarding an LCD:
"Note: When you use an LCD and Mame32 remember to deselect the switch res and switch color depth so you can run at native desktop resolution.  No mode switching and no interpolation from lower resolutions."

These should be somewhere in the  ini as well (video options?).


Applicable to larger screens: "The increase in vertical resolution allows for better integer stretching in Mame32 too, so you can for instance run at desktop resolution and choose the scanlines options and have the image take up more room than at 1024 vertical."
And Widescreens(16:10): "It's necessary of course to set Mame32 to 16:10 otherwise you'll get a squat stretched picture.  Since most arcade games are 4:3 standard resolution, you're going to get black bars on the left and right in a letterbox style. "

[XeviouS]

Should be in your mame.ini - look near the bottom for vector options.

You sir, are a genius. After working out how to create a mame.ini file, I found the vector option just like you said. Tried various figures and found a value of 1.5 (default was 1) boosted the brightness of vector lines and bullets beautifully!

This has been bugging me ever since I built my cabinet and it's a relief to finally have a solution. Thanks very much for your help!