Lots of beginner CP questions!

[Honzo]

Ok, first let me apologize if these have been answered, I've been trying to do my research, but no offense, the information on the site isn't all exactly up to date or very organized.  Also, sorry if this is in the wrong section as well.  So now, where to start...

First, let me outline the panel i'm planning.  I want a very universal panel with 4 players, most likely a trackball and spinner as well. No flight yokes or such though.
1.  Is it still necessary to include a dedicated 4 way joystick? or do ulitmarc's switchable joysticks (particularly the Magi-Stick plus) do a fine enough job to have replaced this idea?
2.  Do most other 2 player and 4 player games use 8 way sticks?  Should I buy more than just the one switchable joystick or will the one for first player (or if people still used dedicated 4 ways) suffice?
3.  If i only need the one 4 way switchable, what is the best 8 way that will look similar to the magi-stick?

Buttons:
1.  How many should i include for player 1 and 2 to be most versitile? I hear 6 from some people and 7 from others.
2.  How many should i have for p3 and 4?
3.  I want to use the buttons ultimarc has that are translucent with the led's...
     a. Is ultimarc the only place to get these/only makers of them?
     b. Are they the same as your standard competition buttons? Anything i should know about their feel and such?

Trackball and spinner:
1. I wanna use the trackball and spinner from ultimarc via their usb interfaces so i can use the ipac4, is this a good setup? (the trackball that mounts without a plate that is)
2. I browsed the control panel database and noticed a lot of panels with "admin" buttons.  What are these, which ones do i want to include, why?

Designing:
What would you recommend for designing the panel? and where can i find tips for designing a nicely functioning panel?

PHEW!  I think thats about all i have to ask, If i find more questions, i'll post em.  Thanks in advance!

[javeryh]

Read the WIKI - your questions are really really broad.

1.  You don't need a dedicated 4-way if you have a programmable stick like the U360 but some people still prefer dedicated 4-ways.
2.  I can't even begin to think about how varied controls are from game to game.  Your best bet would be to check maws and see which games you MUST be able to play need which controls and go from there.  I would buy multiple U360s so everyone switches on the fly.
3.  Most joystick tops are interchangable

1.  It's up to you.  The 7th button is for NeoGeo layout.  Some people have 8 or 9 for console emulation.  It's up to you.
2.  It's up to you.  4 buttons is plenty for MAME though
3. a. No.  Randy sells them as do plenty of other places I'm sure.
3. b. I don't know.

1. You need an optipac or a minipac to hook up a trackball and spinner (unless they are USB)
2. It's up to you.  Admin buttons control the secondary functions in MAME and with respect to your front end like pause, insert coin, exit to front end, etc.

There is a control panel thread stickied in Project Announcements with like a bazillion examples.  I'd start there.

If I were you I'd also not build a 4P frankenpanel.   

[DaveMMR]

Read the WIKI - your questions are really really broad.

Javeryh is right.  You also owe it to yourself to search threads for each of your questions as there are miles of threads for each.

[mimic]

Read the WIKI - your questions are really really broad.

Javeryh is right.  You also owe it to yourself to search threads for each of your questions as there are miles of threads for each.

Don't "owe it to yourself..." You will find so many post "for", "against", "yay", "nay" your head will spin and you will never start. There is just an overload of information, tons of outdated stuff, you will not be able to figure it out. Best is to read few fresh opinions, try it, and soon enough you will know if that either worked for you, or if it's the complete opposite. People that were here for awhile tend to get bored with the same question that they answered once and instead of making room for people that didn't get tired yet and move on onto another thread, they will start telling new guys to do research, and that reading for 2 weeks straight is "fun" Fun is when you finally build the damn thing whether it comes out right or not.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, example:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=84649.0l this guy went completly nuts and it turned out awesome!


I can only chip in on the buttons issue.
I'd go for 7.
4 on the bottom it will give you perfect neo-geo layout + 3 additional on top for mortal kombat/street fighter 2. Pretty much only fighting games require many buttons. If you're not into that then you can skip that many altogether.

as to how many buttons for player 3 & 4 I think no more than any 4-player game requires at the most. (I think it's 4, but I'd swear I saw one panel with 5 - but that's not worth it for just one game to have 5 buttons)

[Turnarcades]

All said pretty much by Javery, though the 7th button thing is just a preference thing. Here is a compact panel we have done which would fill most of your requirements and still have room for a couple of spinners if you built one similar yourself:



If you wanted a little more room, just pull the outer player's layouts out an inch or two; this customer had specific space requirements. You will not need more than 4 buttons for player 3+4 (or 1+4 should that be?). This panel had 4 Mag+'s and they are great in 4-way - particularly 4-player Bomberman on the SNES.

[cmoses]

I am a little ahead of you.  I have my control panel built and am in the process of testing my layout.  I would highly recommend this as it allows you to get a true feel of what works and what doesn't.  Layout of joystick and buttons, comfort, feel, roominess. 

I went with U360 joysticks for the most versatility, they can handle everything you throw at them.  I went with a slightly curved 7 button layout.  I really enjoy having the 7th button.  It gives you a little more versatility.  Easier to replicate button configurations - 3 button NBA Jam - 4 Button Neo Geo, etc. 

Admin buttons are really up to you.  Some prefer more, some prefer less.  That is why I am using a mock up for testing.  You can figure out what buttons you use or don't and maybe what you need.

[CheffoJeffo]

People that were here for awhile tend to get bored with the same question that they answered once and instead of making room for people that didn't get tired yet and move on onto another thread, they will start telling new guys to do research, and that reading for 2 weeks straight is "fun" Fun is when you finally build the damn thing whether it comes out right or not.

To be fair, they have been answered eleventy12! brazillion times, not once.

And, to be clear to the new folks, the fact that those questions have been answered before doesn't make them bad questions to ask ... in fact, I would suggest that they are good questions, having been asked so many times. Some of the information is out of date, but if you check the dates on threads, you will be able to ascertain what is out of date and what isn't.

I am one of the big "do the research" guys and a number of folks have put a lot of time and effort into creating a wiki that, while not perfect, is the best source of information that I know of. It is the perfect place to start so that you understand the concepts and basic options. If you find information that is out of date in the wiki, then update it ... or let somebody know so that it can be updated.

Another thing that we hear a lot is "just let the newer folks answer the questions". Sounds good to me, except that some of the oldtimers have expertise that the new folks don't, so that information is lost if the OP doesn't do the search.

One thing that non-old-folks rarely seem to ask is -- "what games do you want to play most ?". For me, there is no question more important than that when starting a new design.

To the OP:  I know there is a lot to work through and digest ... I spent 2 *years* prior to even posting here, designing a frankenpanel cab that I never ended up building. But, the more you read and learn, the better your chances for creating something that you can be really proud of and enjoy for years to come.

If the fun was restricted to mere playing, then we would all just buy prefab panels.

 

[genesim]

Honzo,

First of all I personally feel good about your questions because I was there too.    Though some would say "search the archives", the facts are that alot of what is written here is marred by other kind of information that it is hard to weed through the answer you want.   

Time is something that alot of us don't have tons of.    Yet you probably are looking to get into something while you have the energy.   I can completely understand that!

1.  Is it still necessary to include a dedicated 4 way joystick? or do ulitmarc's switchable joysticks (particularly the Magi-Stick plus) do a fine enough job to have replaced this idea?

In my opinion it is essential.   For my 4-way I use the Magstick PLUS from Ultimarc.   Restriction is key, and if you want to feel authentic and say not get stuck on a ladder in Donkey Kong, then go that way.

   The 4-8 way feature is not only good for regular 8 way games but also good for Q-bert which in opinion doesn't need a physical restrictor.    Congo Bongo I don't know about, but I can still play it with great success non restricted.     Both of these games need the special diagonal movements.

Another option which won't give you Qbert(but of course you can still play it...just not inverted) is the Ultimarc J-Stick.   This is another fantastic restricted stick.   It is probably my favorite, even more so then the Magstick.   The magsticks only real drawback to me is the short throw..but having it switchable from the top is what sold me.   I don't like the way the Prodigy looks, so that cinched it.

2.  Do most other 2 player and 4 player games use 8 way sticks?  Should I buy more than just the one switchable joystick or will the one for first player (or if people still used dedicated 4 ways) suffice?

As with anything you can do what you want, but for me I like to keep each player on an even standing...so same stick on each one, and yes in my opinion they should be 8-way.

I for one do not like the Happs Perfect 360.    It just doesn't feel right and while it may be more accurate I miss the microswitches.   That is the only way for me.

So between Competition and Supers is where I go with this.   Both I think are similar and it depends if you like an inverted Ice Cream cone feel or a round shorter stick.    I hear lots of people like Supers for fighting games....but my choice....

The Happs Rotary Joysticks.    I have never had a problem with the feel and they act very similar to Supers.    I have never felt the supposed extra weight...and if it is there, it may actualy give a heavier feel which I like!    Plus you get the added benefit of playing Rotary games!    Overkill for some, but awesome for two people that like cooperating on Ikari Warriors!

3.  If i only need the one 4 way switchable, what is the best 8 way that will look similar to the magi-stick?

If the Magstick is what you like, then I would go with the original to have a matching set.   It is not my taste though for the two players.   I don't know why, but I just prefer the J,T or Mag as the 4-way...just different feel.

Buttons:
1.  How many should i include for player 1 and 2 to be most versitile? I hear 6 from some people and 7 from others.

or Eight if you want to go with a console becuase of the 4 shouldier pads.   Some don't like this, but it is nice having the extra buttons to program with if you are using other things...like me going completely overkill with doing computer games too.

2.  How many should i have for p3 and 4?

Player 3 and 4 don't need as many because it is really hard to get that many people going.   But 4 seems to be enough..unless you have a psycho fighting game that has two on two combat!

But what about this idea.   How about having dual joysticks like I have where you can get a 3rd person in between while not having a super large controller!    I use the mouse buttongs as extra.   The original SlikStik CO2 panel was a work of art if you ask me.

3.  I want to use the buttons ultimarc has that are translucent with the led's...
     a. Is ultimarc the only place to get these/only makers of them?

I don't like these buttons as much.  They don't have a Happs feel.   If lighting up is what you want Groovy Gamegear does them too.   

 

 b. Are they the same as your standard competition buttons? Anything i should know about their feel and such?

That is a big no from me.   It is a much lighter feeling plastic...kind of like a toy transformer.   Not bad quality...just different.    I have two of them and they work great as coin buttons, but I just don't use them as the main ones.

Trackball and spinner:
1. I wanna use the trackball and spinner from ultimarc via their usb interfaces so i can use the ipac4, is this a good setup? (the trackball that mounts without a plate that is)

Sorry I can't help you with the trackball because I am eyeing them up myself!   I have the older spintrak though and this is a fine spinner.    Their new design is so well done.    It makes me frickin' jealous.    Get this spinner!   It is great and it spins so smooth with high resolution.

2. I browsed the control panel database and noticed a lot of panels with "admin" buttons.  What are these, which ones do i want to include, why?

Usually you use the "shift" function.   I wouldn't go too crazy with making extra buttons for special functions.   Just have combo shifts, and you can't go wrong.    I put a couple of buttons on the back though and it works great that way for no accidental triggering.

Designing:
What would you recommend for designing the panel? and where can i find tips for designing a nicely functioning panel?

It really is alot of work.   I would suggest you go with MAME Room where they can drill it for you.    Though by all means try if you want, but getting those holes perfect without the right equipment is a pain.

PHEW!  I think thats about all i have to ask, If i find more questions, i'll post em.  Thanks in advance!

No problem, hope I have helped.