Interesting article on making LCDs look like fuzzy CRTs

[Malenko]

I just wanted to get in before the thread lock.

I cant figure out if genesim lost his edit rights again or just loves double, triple,quadruple posting.

To recap......... an actual game artist posted that he used creative methods to get a game how he wanted it to look on a TV compensating for poor video/signal and thats brushed aside because a random internet poster says emulation preserves code and LCDs show it better.


kk, threads summarized, it can be locked down now.

[genesim]

Malenko,

If you actually bothered to read I never disagreed with said artist...hmmm

And how many times do you have to be told that I don't have editing rights and I am not just "loving" it to be cute.

LEARN...or not...but then that tells me you are just loving it....or you have trouble comprehending.

Though I still think there is no reason to lock the thread if you look at what has been written at least some are taking the time to actually see my side of it.  Of course this baby step only took a couple of days and me getting banned....

And no I never said that LCD's "show it better".   Also I never said emulation alone preserves code.

Why do so many hold a lie like it is some kind of virtue?  It isn't clever at all.

[CheffoJeffo]

Kinda hard to do that when the post got deleted.   I suggest you check your mail I have sent you at least 10 different messages with not one response.

You are referring to this post, which did not get deleted. And I told you that people where ignoring you ! 

Well, my oldest are 9 and the youngest is 6. Again, I'm reasonably certain that you don't want to say *anything* about my kids and not only because it is in poor taste.

You want to come after me, that is fine. Hell, I encourage it.

If you mention Mrs. Cheffo or the little Cheffos, then you should be prepared for me to show up on your doorstep and hold you to account for what you say.

FWIW, my point in that statement is that we take shots at each other in online arguments and that's part of the way that the online world is. I encouraged you to come after me, which you did, in force, both publicly and in private messages.

If you want to talk about someone's family, then you should not say anything that you would not say to that person's face.

We had already had another instance where it seemed that you were taking a shot at my kids.

In no way did I ever intent to, nor would I ever, threaten anybody's family.

If you felt that I was threatening them, then I apologize, despite the fact that it would completely defy logic given that I was talking about respecting people's families.

[CheffoJeffo]

Uh you must not have been there....you must not know what you are talking about...blah blah blah.

Funny, you said exactly those same things to me last week.

Probably not because you more then likely were not there at the time and you try to speak about knowing so much, but in reality you know far less then me.

[CheffoJeffo]

If noone attacked me, I would never attacke back.   Wanna test this theory?  

That is the experiment I have been running by staying out of this thread ... didn't work out so well this time either.

[CheffoJeffo]

It is a religion and everytime I get closer to the truth people get personal.

[Todd H]

I think it's time to break out the...

[Malenko]

Malenko,

If you actually bothered to read I never disagreed with said artist...hmmm

The artist said he, and other artists, drew stuff the way they did to compensate for the display. You're saying you agree with this?

if so, what have you been bitching about for the last 3 threads?

Though I still think there is no reason to lock the thread if you look at what has been written at least some are taking the time to actually see my side of it.  Of course this baby step only took a couple of days and me getting banned....

I'm sure you posting like a child is the primary reason for the potential lock. Notice I am not calling you a child, merely commenting that the way in which you are posting is akin to being very child like.

And no I never said that LCD's "show it better".   Also I never said emulation alone preserves code.

I'll try to pull quotes to prove you wrong with you own words, but its difficult considering most of the topics of which you "participate" have been moved to post hell.

[genesim]

Cheffo,

I never went after your family. 

Who cares though, I will never convince you anyway.   But know this, if you believe I did, then I apologize.

Not as an agreeance to guilt, but an agreeance that I made you feel that way for whatever reason.    It is all a waste of time and I don't take kindly to threats the same as you wouldn't.

Neither one of us would rather be looking over our shouldiers anyway.   So my apologies for however I said it, or however you took it.    I said it snide, the same as you were throwing shots.

Who started it...who said it...who cares.   We were both wrong at one point. 

xxxxx

Malenko,

Happy hunting.   You can call me..imply whatever you want.     But yes, I do encourage you read and post whatever inaccuracy you think I put down and I will gladly defend it.    Keep it civilized and I will do the same.

As for what was deleted....nothing that I haven't repeated a million times.  My points have not changed one bit.   If I was proved wrong like Cheffo pointed out a hudred times, I gladly admitted it..again...and again...and again.

[Malenko]

Malenko,

Happy hunting.   You can call me..imply whatever you want.     But yes, I do encourage you read and post whatever inaccuracy you think I put down and I will gladly defend it.    Keep it civilized and I will do the same.

As for what was deleted....nothing that I haven't repeated a million times.  My points have not changed one bit.   If I was proved wrong like Cheffo pointed out a hudred times, I gladly admitted it..again...and again...and again.

I'd rather not talk to you.  congrats on being the first person I've clicked "ignore" to, and I think you tied chad cause Im your lucky #7

[Hoopz]

Malenko,

Happy hunting.   You can call me..imply whatever you want.     But yes, I do encourage you read and post whatever inaccuracy you think I put down and I will gladly defend it.    Keep it civilized and I will do the same.

As for what was deleted....nothing that I haven't repeated a million times.  My points have not changed one bit.   If I was proved wrong like Cheffo pointed out a hudred times, I gladly admitted it..again...and again...and again.

I'd rather not talk to you.  congrats on being the first person I've clicked "ignore" to, and I think you tied chad cause Im your lucky #7

Chad's at 5 now so we have a new winner.

[CheffoJeffo]

Mal, you may be thinking of this thread, which did not get PH'd (perhaps due to the fact that I just sat and watched ... although I think I was busy annoying him in the LCDs are better than CRTs thread at around the same time):

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62829.0

I'm not going to rehash the thread, because it would take too long, but one interesting piece of information, that is apparently important given the battle that genesim has had in three different threads about it -- clues to his age.

I am an old school gamer and I have had lots of experience with older monitors.    I have been playing as young as 4 because my dad was hard core even back to pong.    I got an atari when there was literally no games.   

Now, if he is referring to the original arcade version of Pong, then his statement seems to imply that he is the same age that I am. 41.

If he is referring to the home version, then is is younger than I am.

As for the degree of experience with older monitors, I leave that to the reader to evaluate, with the exception of the following as it reveals quite a bit.

Kind of like running a vector graphic monitor...yeah its best, but is it really worth burning your eyes out for?

WTF ?


EDIT: for spelling

[genesim]

Again with my age. 

Here we go...and I thought it could be civilized.       

[RayB]

One thing you have missed completely... is RAYS picture of the Bubbles,
and the explanations behind it.  (which really blows your case all to hell)

 No way would anyone in their right mind make a bubble that had white stripes
down the middle of it!  Why did Ray do it?   Because when displayed on a TV, it would make those appear TRANSLUCENT.  So the bubble would look like a milky but see-through white.

 Ray wasnt the first one to do this.  Its been done in countless arcade games.
Not just for translucent effect.. but color blending effect.

Just for the sake of accuracy, *I* didn't draw the bubble. Someone else on the team did.

And again for accuracy, in my own experience, only the Sega Genesis had the effect of blending stripes. If you displayed the same graphics through a Super Nintendo, you would see the stripes, not blended. And again, the technique on a NES would cause weird "shimmering" when scrolling.

My point was that while there is *some* blending on the tv (and a tv's quality, age, etc would affect the amount), there was also some other effects in the signal itself generated by the console. (And we artists would use that to our advantage if possible). An emulator would not take this into account, since we're talking about the way the final analog signal was generated and combined into a single RF signal, and that's not part of the "logic" that emulators emulate.


While I'm clarifying details, Gene, take some Xanax and feast your eyes on these specs:

Sega Genesis
pixel resolution: 320 x 224

Super Nintendo:Resolutions Progressive: 256x224, 512x224, 256x239, 512x239
Interlaced: 512x448, 512x478

Nintendo Entertainment System
256 x 240 pixels.
Typically, games designed for NTSC-based systems had an effective resolution of only 256 by 224 pixels, as the top and bottom 8 scanlines are not visible on most television sets.

etc...

So Gene, explain how those different consoles all worked on the same STANDARD televisions if (according to you) they have a "FIXED" resolution?

[Ummon]

No Ummon, it does Not look exactly like an arcade monitor.

 For example,  the upper left where there is a checkerboard bar - is supposed to
be displayed as translucent instead of seeing a checkerboard pattern.

 And that is only the beginning of it all. 

 Compare an actual photograph of an arcade monitor, and see for yourself.


 Edit:

 ohh, you are talking about the pics you posted.  Those are even worse.

Those images are the closest I've seen an effect come to the arcade monitors in old-style cabs I've seen recently, including my Mappy cab. Did you pay attention to the instructions about clicking inside the image window? - ie: click on posted image, click inside window.

Randy comes on and starts attacking me for my AGE.   My AGE and starts saying that I am lying because I won't give out my exact age??

Well, heheheheheh, you acted like such a girl about it....does that count as name-calling?

[genesim]

So Gene, explain how those different consoles all worked on the same STANDARD televisions if (according to you) they have a "FIXED" resolution?

  

Right, this is exactly what I said.    I could get angry, I could get confused.   But once you have seen the same trick over and over, I just laugh.    Either people don't want to read what I wrote...have read it and can't comprehend...or are just plain causing trouble.

Perhaps all of the above.   Its not my problem anymore.    Should have never made it mine to begin with.     

[DJ_Izumi]

There's only been one person causing trouble in these threads.

[Xiaou2]

Sorry Ummon,  but YES, I clicked them full size.  They are not good at all.  If you
really think that... then you need glasses.

[Ummon]

Sorry Ummon,  but YES, I clicked them full size.  They are not good at all.  If you
really think that... then you need glasses.

Must be your monitor and resolution then. Desktop has to be at SXGA. Could even be that being on an LCD blows, as I'm using a PC CRT.

[Xiaou2]

Nope.  I have a high res 21" viewsonic pc crt  thats in Excellent shape.  I do graphical
art at times,  so I have a good eye and detailed knowledge about resolution, color,
and much more.

 I also have several arcade monitors on hand to compare with.

[1UP]

 Wow, this is highly entertaining.  This post derailed like the train in The Fugitive. 

[Hoopz]

Wow, this is highly entertaining.  This post derailed like the train in The Fugitive. 

It's good to see you back, but you've missed at least 5 other threads that have gone this way because of one particular person.  3 are in post hell, one is in reviews, and one is in the monitor forum. 

Grab some beers and head to to the one in the reviews section.  Ultimate in idiocy!   

It may also help explain why Rule # 10 was created, why one slack jawed mo-ron argued against it, and why he's been banned a few weekends when Saint didn't want him posting when Saint was around to babysit him.

But hey, make up your own mind!   

[Hoopz]

Here's the link to the thread in the Review section:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62829.0

[1UP]

Here's the link to the thread in the Review section:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62829.0

...ehhh...hoboy.    First post was enough.

And here I've been trying to help this guy!

[Ummon]

Nope.  I have a high res 21" viewsonic pc crt  thats in Excellent shape.  I do graphical
art at times,  so I have a good eye and detailed knowledge about resolution, color,
and much more.

 I also have several arcade monitors on hand to compare with.

Mm-mmm-mmmm. I guess we'll have to visit each other's houses.

[RayB]

Mm-mmm-mmmm. I guess we'll have to visit each other's houses.

That sounds like a threat!
 

[Ummon]

Mm-mmm-mmmm. I guess we'll have to visit each other's houses.

That sounds like a threat!
 

Hahhahahahahahah. Or I'm making a pass.

[Ummon]

Well, since this is somewhat more active, I thought I'd post these here. Some scanlines effects that I think look good, using the last Advancemame: .106.1 .  (Ahem - the caveat is that you must be using a 27" monitor at XGA....for those few of you who are....as it doesn't look good on my PC monitor at that res. I'll have to try the native res of that monitor - SXGA - maybe that makes a difference. Another caveat I just found...or, sorta refound....is that they blow scrolling games. Well, old mame affects always did....not that new mame is perfect, either. Anyways....)

Significant differences in this version are:

 - The default output mode in Windows and X is now 'overlay'.
 - The default resize effect is now 'fractional' instead of 'integer'.
 - The 'overlaysize' option now has the default 'auto' which uses the current video mode. 
 - The SDL library now force the video driver 'directx' as default. Required because from SDL 1.2.10 the default is the slow 'windib'

What this means is that it's a bit like the old ddraw+hwstretch in mame, sans effects, or like current mame with prescale at '1'. Before this, you could get Advancemame to display at the desktop resolution, but the result was like prescale at 2 - or even more, like the 31khz output from the AVGA. A little harsh to me.

So, here we have the following settings:

image 1 (light scanlines) : magnify 2 / scan2horz / gamma = 1.20

image 2 (stronger scanlines) : magnify 3 / scan3horz / gamma = 1.30

image 3 (sorta purple girders) : magnify 3 / scan3horz / gamma = 2.0


(Again, remember to click inside the pictures after clicking on them. Or, try the same settings.)

[Ummon]

Here's something I had archived and came across:

http://jvspac.kirurg.org/?page=mame

It's about running double-pixeled and using effects. Not a new premise, but one I think everyone has forgotten about. This means you have to create specific modes for each resolution you're going to run, so that you can run at 31khz (around) while having an exact double multiple of the game's resolution.

I tried this on my digital multisync (27") with 336x240, 292x240, and 256x240 games at 640x480, and they were almost indistinguishable from running them native. Maybe not quite as bright, but very nice looking.

Incidentally, this is sorta similar to what the old Stretchmame would do, but far better looking, at least brightness-wise.

....Actually, I was just playing with this in mame .104 (ie: before the re-write), and it looks really good there, too - horizontal games at 640x480, vertical games at 800x600; 50% scanlines for both. Don't even have to change the default brightness or gamma. However, it won't work for  horizontal games above 320x240 - they don't fill the display area - I would guess because of how mame treats those resolutions.

[Ummon]

In fact, I would go so far as saying using older mame on a large CRT this way IS indistinguishable from running native on a similar CRT. Brighter display than going the new mame way.

[Ummon]

Okay, some adjustment, here. It depends on the game or type of game. Any retro, 'black background' games might need a brightness bump of .15 .  Graphics saturated games may or may not need it. Bubbles surely didn't. Anyways, the scanlines are authentic with very little if any dimming.

[CheffoJeffo]

Is it me, or is somebody talking to themselves ?

[Ummon]

Elaborate.