EMS TopGun II Light Guns...?

[ArcadeAddict77]

I have been reading up on light guns over the last couple of days and I believe the topgun II's seem to be the latest domestic product on the market, which seems to give the most success. I am looking at these as I am leaning towards putting an LCD in my cabinet when I build it.

Does anyone have any experience on how these guns perform when the LED strips are installed in a cabinet? So behind glass/plexi and a bezel?

I am concerned once I put my cab together and cover the LEDs with a potentially reflective surface of glass or plexi and also a black coloured bezel made of cardboard or some other material, the signals will not be able to make the journey from the guns to the LED strips.

I'd be very grateful to anyone who has any experience on this. Perhaps I am looking at this all wrong and there is a better product available on the market - In this case let me know.

Jeremy.

Edit: I have just read through Andy's market research thread, so will keep my eye on Ultimarc.

[swamprat96]

I've got them running through slightly smoked glass. The strips are mounted top and bottom to an arcade monitor which is on a 30 degree slope! Also as I bought two sets for the cab I have a spare set of led strips which I've mounted to my PC monitor (22") as a test unit. I Just put a clear sheet of plexi in front of the monitor and tried it- no problems

They work well with the following caveats.
1. The shooting distance is 2-3 times the distance between the strips. If you mount them top and bottom you'll get a shorter range
2. They are *really* susceptible to outside light sources, I am building this cab in a room with windows behind either side of the cab and unless I black them out the guns play up
3. Mame Offscreen reload does not work in lethal enforcers 1 or 2. It sort of works in area51 but is a bit random. The mame offscreen_reload command does not seem to work. I mention this as it works with a mouse- just not lightguns

*EDIT - I've realised that the smoked glass is causing issues. Whether its the reflections or the 30 degrees I don't know- but clear seems to be ok

[Derrick Renaud]

3. Mame Offscreen reload does not work in lethal enforcers 1 or 2. It sort of works in area51 but is a bit random. The mame offscreen_reload command does not seem to work. I mention this as it works with a mouse- just not lightguns

Works fine for me.  Are you sure you are using the second button as reload?

Oops, I was trying Lethal Justice.  Let me try LE and get back to you....

Yep they all work fine.

[swamprat96]

HI Derrick,

Could you possibly share your mame.ini setting , and your lethalen.cfg? Also how do you have your topguns setup- EMS driver? DEfaults?
TIA
Tony

[ArcadeAddict77]

Hey guys,

So from the posts I think clear plexi / having the LED strips visible is a must?

Jeremy

[Derrick Renaud]

Could you possibly share your mame.ini setting , and your lethalen.cfg? Also how do you have your topguns setup- EMS driver? Defaults?

You just need to use -lightgun and -offscreen_reload.  Or set those options to 1 in the .ini.  You should also be able to use -offscreen_reload with  -mouse if not using a lightgun.

The newest Topgun beta driver from TopGun, or Smogs newest driver both work.

You must make sure you have one of the gun buttons mapped as mouse button 2 (right click).  When using the Topgun/Smogs gun control panel, just make sure the button you want to use as reload indicates as button 2, otherwise you need to setup the buttons properly.

Act Lab guns automatically map button 2, so offscreen_reload should not be a problem with it.

[swamprat96]

Interesting. I have those options enabled in mame.ini. I will now check the topgun driver settings (yes latest beta in use).

I think I have the gun mapped to button 2 - but ZI don't think I have offscreen mapped to button 2 in Topgun. will check

[Derrick Renaud]

I think I have the gun mapped to button 2 - but ZI don't think I have offscreen mapped to button 2 in Topgun. will check

You don't map the button to offscreen in the topgun panel.  Just make sure the button you want to use as reload is set to button 2 and lights up at the bottom display in the panel as button 2 when pressed.

[swamprat96]

OK checked and mame settings are correct. Gun has button b mapped as Button 2- checked it in the Topgun panel.

So I had a look at the ingame settings using lethal enforcers as the test bed. I cleared a control then pressed button b. Mame sees it as the same button as the trigger- Gun 2 BO!

Getting somewhere here I think. Why is mame seeing button 2 on  the gun the same as button 1?

I've now tested this on another PC using a mouse in both 129 and 130. In both mame sees mouse button 1 (right) and left as Gun BO.  Mame ini settings are lightgun 1, multimouse 1 and offscreen_reload 1 in both machines

[swamprat96]

I've got further on this. If I physically remove the mouse the guns become gun 1 and gun2 - and reload works. So why when I add a mouse does it all stop working?

AS this is a Gun cab I'm just gonna remove the mouse period- problem resolved but I'm still curious

[Cananas]

I've got further on this. If I physically remove the mouse the guns become gun 1 and gun2 - and reload works. So why when I add a mouse does it all stop working?

AS this is a Gun cab I'm just gonna remove the mouse period- problem resolved but I'm still curious

In previous version of MAME, Aaron added a 'filter' so if you are using a mouse (a relative pointer vs and absolute pointer -lightgun-), you cannot use offscreen_reload option even if is enabled, because you can't aiming off screen with a mouse. If you are using a mouse, you must aim to the borders of the screen.

By 'using a mouse' I mean any game button mapped to any mouse button. If you have mouse enabled, be sure that there is no one game button mapped to any mouse button. If you have something like "key A or Mouse 1 Button 2 or Gun B0", mame it doesn't reload. You must remap to something like this "key A or Gun B0", and mame it will reload shooting off screen.

Or you can use this config for those lightgun games: mouse 0, lightgun 1, reload_offscreen 1.

BTW, Lethal enforces 1 reloads OK.

[swamprat96]

Yes and Lethal enforcers 2 still has a bug for player 2- it wont reload. I now have all the other gun games working well

[Derrick Renaud]

Yes and Lethal enforcers 2 still has a bug for player 2- it wont reload. I now have all the other gun games working well

Make sure you click on the second gun in the topgun panel to check/change it's button settings.

[swamprat96]

Yes- did that. Lethal enforcers 1 works fine. Looks like lethal enforcers 2 has a bug. I'll be spending some time testing tonight to try and track down exactly what the  bugs are.

I think the first bug is a general one that appears when there are more than 2 mice in that both left and right buttons for the mouse are recognised as the same button. The second again general bug is that with just two mice each button works seperately but is listed as the same button in mame (ingame setup).  The third is lethal enforcers 2 specific in that player 2 reload does not work for lightguns.

However I want to duplicate all this on a second PC before I post them at mametesters

[Derrick Renaud]

LE2, player 2 does seem to not like _offscreen_reload.

Player 2 seems to like an offscreen value of 0,0 to reload.  MAME gives 0,max.  I used to have it set to 0,0 but someone on these forums made a case for it being set to 0,max and changed it.

I don't think I'd post a bug about it.  If you did we would need proper info on all lightgun games and the reload value for all players.  This info would not include games such as Zombie Raid which is not a lightgun game.

You can try changing src\emu\input.c around line 1451:

look for:

Code: [Select]

result = (INPUT_CODE_ITEMID(code) == ITEM_ID_XAXIS) ? INPUT_ABSOLUTE_MIN : INPUT_ABSOLUTE_MAX;
and change to:

Code: [Select]

result = INPUT_ABSOLUTE_MIN;
Recompile and then see if that breaks any other game.

[Cananas]

I used to have it set to 0,0 but someone on these forums made a case for it being set to 0,max and changed it.

Me. I remember that when I checked the games, at least one game didn't reload with 0,0. Could be Lethal enforces or undercover...?

I will check again all the lightgun games that can reload shooting offscreen when I have some time.

*** EDIT ***
This is the old topic where we discussed it.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=51919.0
Anyway, it would be good an update.

[Derrick Renaud]

Thanks for the refresher, Cananas.

Looks like there is a hack in the LE2 code to make Player 1 offscreen_reload work.  It converts min,max to min,min.

src\drivers\konamigx.c:

Code: [Select]

static READ32_HANDLER( le2_gun_V_r )
{
int p1y = input_port_read(space->machine, "LIGHT0_Y")*224/0xff;
int p2y = input_port_read(space->machine, "LIGHT1_Y")*224/0xff;

// make "off the bottom" reload too
if (p1y >= 0xdf) p1y = 0;

return (p1y<<16)|p2y;
}

change it to and recompile:

Code: [Select]

static READ32_HANDLER( le2_gun_V_r )
{
int p1y = input_port_read(space->machine, "LIGHT0_Y")*224/0xff;
int p2y = input_port_read(space->machine, "LIGHT1_Y")*224/0xff;

// make "off the bottom" reload too
if (p1y >= 0xdf) p1y = 0;
if (p2y >= 0xdf) p2y = 0;

return (p1y<<16)|p2y;
}


[swamprat96]

Thanks Derrick,

I went home to no power yesterday so I'll make the change and try it tonight

[swamprat96]

Yep that got it- thanks!

[Derrick Renaud]

Yep that got it- thanks!

It's actually included in the new 0.131 version.

There have also been a lot of other UI fixes that should make selecting the gun in the UI input easier.

The only problem left is a topgun issue where it can flicker out of range and then you get Gun X Gun Y.  I just thought of an idea where I will ignore the gun input if it is min/maxed on selection.  I'll try it out later.

Please try setting up your guns in 0.131 and let me know if it is easier.  Then try the ctrlr way I told you, because that is the easiest setup.

BTW, if you want the crosshairs to match the game colours, check out this post:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=187740&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[swamprat96]

Its certainly simpler to set up the guns in 131. I'm going to convert to the setup you suggested over the weekend.

But I still can't use 131. Since 130, lethal enforcers 2 won't run at full speed. 129- 100% -130 and 131 93.64%. The music stumbles and its unplayable. I've tried it on the cab( P4 with 1 Gig ram), this machine I'm working on now(pentium D with 2 gig) and a brand new core duo 2.8 with 4 gig with pretty much the same result.

Tafoids response on mametesters was:

This is not a bug. You'll find a lot of games and drivers using the newly added TMS57002 implementation have had decreased emulation performance.

Such drivers are:
konamigq.c
konamigx.c
zn.c

Closing

Very frustrating - do I need a Cray to run it?

[Derrick Renaud]

The only problem left is a topgun issue where it can flicker out of range and then you get Gun X Gun Y.  I just thought of an idea where I will ignore the gun input if it is min/maxed on selection.  I'll try it out later.

This fix has been submitted for 0.131u1.

It works great.  If you move offscreen or the Topguns loose contact with the bars causing them to go offscreen, you will now no longer get Gun X Gun Y when selecting the gun axis in the UI.  You will get only the axis of the direction you were moving.

Gun selection should now be quite easy.

[Derrick Renaud]

But I still can't use 131. Since 130, lethal enforcers 2 won't run at full speed. 129- 100% -130 and 131 93.64%. The music stumbles and its unplayable. I've tried it on the cab( P4 with 1 Gig ram), this machine I'm working on now(pentium D with 2 gig) and a brand new core duo 2.8 with 4 gig with pretty much the same result.

I get 150-160% with 131 on my 3.16GHz E8500 Core 2 Duo on XP.

[swamprat96]

Ok. Is that with throttle off? Is there a setting I should look at for le2?

OK I've tried all that. Even on the newest machine (Core 2 Duo 2.8 Ghz) Mame reports it running at 99.58%. The music still staggers but I guess its playable.

The question is- are we supposed to have the latest and greatest to run a game from 1994 that did run alright on a previous version or mame? I appreciate this is freeware and many people put their own time into writing mame. I just question how an speed decrease is acceptable so that all but those with brand new machines can no longer play a game. Maybe a switch of some sort to disable the change would be plausible?

[mimic]

Since there is nice thread going on about EMS gun, instead of polluting the board I'll jump on this one.

I just got one of them. I think I like it, but my questions are:

1. slide on the gun (the recoiling part) doesnt  always return to it's original position. Is it only on my gun, or all of them do that?
2. The T-hat or 4-way joystick rattles when upside down or when I shake the gun. Is it supposed to be loose like that?
3. Anyone with xbox got silent scope? Is it supposed to be that sensitive when trying to aim at bad guys?

[DJ_Izumi]

Light guns for Silent Scope on Xbox suck.  I tried a gun that used cathode ray timing but used the EXACT same plastic shell as the EMS Top GUn and some others.

Silent Scope was NOT a light gun game.  It was a giant joystick shaped like a rifle with an LCD screen inside.  Basicly when using the light gun you are trying to use the gun as a 'mouse' for scrolling the same way you'd use a mouse in an FPS game for turning your perspective...  Basicly, it's aweful cause you're not using the light gun like it's designed.  The gun is for 'point and click' like a mouse on a desktop screen, not for 'moving perspective' like in an FPS game.

The reason your results on SS on Xbox are poor is because it's a poor means to play the game, probably the ONLY way to get the arcade like experiance at home would be to build a rifle out of a joystick and install an LCD screen into it.

[mimic]

Will no one chip in on the slide and 4-way joy issue? Or am I better off creating new thread?

1. slide on the gun (the recoiling part) doesnt  always return to it's original position. Is it only on my gun, or all of them do that?
2. The T-hat or 4-way joystick rattles when upside down or when I shake the gun. Is it supposed to be loose like that?
 

[swamprat96]

both the slide and the 4 way are OK on mine