Exidy Multi shooter

[richieknucklez]

It has been awhile since I tinkered with mame, and even longer since I set up a cab with light guns. The Act Labs silver guns I wound up using eventually found thier way out of the cab and into an old box in the attic.
Anyways, I own both dedicated Cheyenne and Crossbow cabs and swap Combat and Chiller pcbs in and out when I get bored. I love the Exidy 440 series and have been waiting and praying for the day Dave Widel makes another run of multi Exidy kits.
I am growing more and more impatient and I was toying with the idea of making a MAME exidy multishooter. I picked up an empty trashed Crossbow cab last week which would make a fine candidate for restoration.

I guess what I am asking is has anyone ever attempted such an animal?

Here is where I am a noob with mame and light guns,
I know you can setup mame.cfg to mirror the image, but if you used a mirrored monitor would the shots register correctly?

Also, I would want to use one of the Combat/Cheyenne Stationary positioned rifles.
Has anyone ever transplanted a pc based optical gun's guts into an actual Exidy style gun? Shooting with that light plastic toy gun just would not do.


Any advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated

Richie Knucklez

[TOK]

Since MAME supports those with the mouse pretty well, have you considered doing a hack to make it a positional (mouse hack) gun rather than a light gun? The Exidy games require very precise shooting, and I'm not sure anything other than positional in MAME is up to it yet.

I'm relatively local to your arcade and have been dying to come out... I had something going on the week of the CAG event, and it killed me.

[CheffoJeffo]

First off, welcome!

For those who don't know who richieknucklez is -- his arcade (yes, I mean arcade in the proper sense  ) was featured in the March issue of GameRoom Magazine. (So don't be telling him do "Do a search noob" !)

I'll let others speak to the details as i have been holding off a gun-based MAME until such time as there was a driver board that supported standard arcade guns. I think we're still waiting to hear how the optical boards from Nanotech work out. Happ was testing them and had some form of problem that Nanotech was working on last I heard.

An Exidy multishooter would be a very cool cab to have.

[richieknucklez]

Thanks for the props as well as the warm welcome guys.

The Classic arcade gaming tourney at my place was a huge success.

here are some vids of my place;
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=richie+knucklez&aq=f

(check my Pole Position 2 and Monaco GP vids)
here are some pics of the tourney as well;

http://www.richieknucklez.com/html/news.html

hope to meet you guys soon

Richie

[lordtodd75]

Anyways, I own both dedicated Cheyenne and Crossbow cabs and swap Combat and Chiller pcbs in and out when I get bored.

Let me just say I envy you, I have been looking for crossbow and chiller for a while, they are tough to come by. I am going to be following this thread very closely 

[88mph]

Hi Richie--cool post.  I've been toying with the same idea.  I'm going to try things with the ACT labs gun first and see if I can get the accuracy that I need.  I'm hoping that dealing with a fixed mount (rather than free hand operation) has a beneficial effect on the accuracy of these guns.  If that doesn't work, I will see what I can do with using a mouse hack or perhaps something based on potentiometers.  (A mechanical hack such as this should be relatively straightforward, again due to the fixed mount on the Exidy hardware.) 

The mirrored arrangement should not have an effect on the operation of the ACT labs guns (from a physical perspective).  Whether or not MAME is configured to figure things out with the mirrored arrangement is something I still have to test. 

My gun should be arriving in the mail pretty soon--will keep you posted on my progress. 

[Neverending Project]

Also, I would want to use one of the Combat/Cheyenne Stationary positioned rifles.
Has anyone ever transplanted a pc based optical gun's guts into an actual Exidy style gun? Shooting with that light plastic toy gun just would not do.

User waveryder transplanted the guts of an Act Labs gun into a PS1 "Predator" style gun. There may be some info on his thread to help you, or you could send him a PM.

Good luck! I can already picture the front-end menu as a grid of screenshots where you have to shoot the game you want to select to play...

[SavannahLion]

Just how much space is in those guns? Big enough to stuff the guts of a Wii controller inside? It's got a IR receiver requiring two IR reference points and the Bluetooth interface has already been reverse engineered well enough to make it functional on a PC. You have trigger buttons to tap into. They're extremely plentiful, probably more of those than the Wavebirds. Just wire power up through the post to save on batteries.

Not sure how accurate the controller is that close to the screen and you might need to deal with jitter, no different than an analog pot setup (which was my first thought to try).

[CheffoJeffo]

I'll disagree with the Wii suggestion, but welcome corrections from those more knowledgable.

To what I have seen, the Wiimote does a decent job of moving the cursor around the screen in a manner corresponding to physical movements. To my experience (which is limited to playing HoD on the Wii), the placement of the reticule often does not correspond to the point on the screen at which the Wiimote is aiming. I try to play HoD on the Wii the same way that I would play in the arcade and I get ---my bottom--- kicked by my 9YO son. When we go to the arcade where actually aiming the gun is more important, the roles reverse. Add to that the challenge of a mirrored display and I think it becomes an untenable situation.

As TOK points out, precision is important in aiming in those Exidy shooters and the fixed mounting of the guns makes it more important that the shot goes where you aim. The more I think about it, the more I like using a pot-based positional gun as the basis for a cab like this.

One of the things I am interested in seeing about the Nanotech board is how it compares in MAME, being seen as a joystick instead of a mouse. I haven't actually thought much about it or bothered to look into the relative advantages (if there are any) of each for the application at hand (this is an area where someone like u_rebelscum may have already commented elsewhere and I just haven't researched it yet as I want to use arcade guns).

Of course, I may be totally off-base and missing the obvious ...

[SavannahLion]

I agree that analog pots might work better. I was just offering a different solution given what I perceive as the limitations of MAME.

One thing I was considering is how MAME would handle the input for these specific games. I don't know since I don't have them in my library (no gun, no point) nor am I able to look at the source code right now. I've never tried an analog controller on MAME but it strikes me that if the pots are seen as a joystick, then no matter what position you place the pot, the reticle would continue in that direction thus breaking the relation between gun and reticle. If it's treated as a mouse input, same thing, a mouse is seen as a series of pulses, not a continous fixed value.

IMHO, this problem is a prime example of why I think MAMEDev should quit trying to cram obscure control methods into the limitations of a keyboard/mouse configuration. If they're truly sincere about documenting the hardware of these machines, then that includes the controls and their input. With USB, I'm sure there are all too many engineers all too happy to give us those interfaces.

But alas, that is a topic for another time.

[Neverending Project]

I agree that analog pots might work better. I was just offering a different solution given what I perceive as the limitations of MAME.

One thing I was considering is how MAME would handle the input for these specific games. I don't know since I don't have them in my library (no gun, no point) nor am I able to look at the source code right now. I've never tried an analog controller on MAME but it strikes me that if the pots are seen as a joystick, then no matter what position you place the pot, the reticle would continue in that direction thus breaking the relation between gun and reticle. If it's treated as a mouse input, same thing, a mouse is seen as a series of pulses, not a continous fixed value.

This isn't really true. If you open a light gun game in MAME and enable your mouse as the input, the reticle tracks exactly as the mouse cursor would track on the desktop. If you switch the input to an analog joystick (as an example) the reticle tracks with the position of the joystick. When you push the joystick left, the reticle moves left, and when you let go the reticle snaps back to the center (if it is a self-centering joystick). If you push the joystick part-way to the left and hold it, the reticle stays at that point on the screen.

Pots would work fine - much the same way that a SW controller or steering wheel work fine in their respective games. The will report absolute position to MAME, which will in turn put the reticle in the correct position.

[TheShanMan]

For those who don't know who richieknucklez is -- his arcade (yes, I mean arcade in the proper sense  ) was featured in the March issue of GameRoom Magazine. (So don't be telling him do "Do a search noob" !)

I knew I knew his name from somewhere! I enjoyed that article! Welcome Richie, and good luck with this project.

[CheffoJeffo]

What NEP is saying has been my assumption as to what the difference would be between "Analog Joystick" and "Mouse" controls would be like, but I have nothing to base that on. The distinction, however, is what caught my eye in the description of how the Nanotech board works -- joystick as opposed to mouse.

NOTE: Before anybody accuses me of shilling for Nanotech, be sure to go back to my posts this summer where I called David Foley some bad names and said that I wouldn't buy anything that he was behind. I may well end up preparing some nice Crow-Kababs if this board pans out.

But, I am out of my comfort zone wrt light guns and non-digital MAME interfaces. 

[NoOne=NBA=]

The guns on the Exidy cabs are functionally the same as an analog joystick.
The gun tilts up and down, which turns the y-axis pot.
It also rotates side to side, which turns the x-axis pot.

You might want to get in touch with Andy at Ultimarc, and find out if he knows of anyone that has interfaced one to an A-pac.
The A-pac allows you to adjust for different pot values, so you may not have to physically alter anything on the gun to interface it with a computer.

The calibration in the game itself will possibly compensate for the mirrored display.
I don't remember exactly how you calibrate the gun in Exidy games.
If it's a "shoot here, shoot here" affair, it should work great because it will read the pots as you shoot.
If it's a "move the gun around, then hit the button" type, it may require some tweaking, or axis reversal, to work properly.

[SavannahLion]

I agree that analog pots might work better. I was just offering a different solution given what I perceive as the limitations of MAME.

One thing I was considering is how MAME would handle the input for these specific games. I don't know since I don't have them in my library (no gun, no point) nor am I able to look at the source code right now. I've never tried an analog controller on MAME but it strikes me that if the pots are seen as a joystick, then no matter what position you place the pot, the reticle would continue in that direction thus breaking the relation between gun and reticle. If it's treated as a mouse input, same thing, a mouse is seen as a series of pulses, not a continous fixed value.

This isn't really true. If you open a light gun game in MAME and enable your mouse as the input, the reticle tracks exactly as the mouse cursor would track on the desktop. If you switch the input to an analog joystick (as an example) the reticle tracks with the position of the joystick. When you push the joystick left, the reticle moves left, and when you let go the reticle snaps back to the center (if it is a self-centering joystick). If you push the joystick part-way to the left and hold it, the reticle stays at that point on the screen.

Pots would work fine - much the same way that a SW controller or steering wheel work fine in their respective games. The will report absolute position to MAME, which will in turn put the reticle in the correct position.

I believe you and I'll defer to your better knowledge.

[richieknucklez]

The guns on the Exidy cabs are functionally the same as an analog joystick.

On both the Crossbow and the Cheyenne rifle there are no pots. They are optical based guns. When my optics crapped out a few years back I tried a red happ optic gun from my Lethal Enforcers and it worked.

I made a mame shooter maybe three years ago and originally tried using an old Lethal Enforcers mirrored monitor setup. It looked great but the shots would not register correctly. It was a time based project so I just scrapped the idea and went with a Dynamo cab with the monitor right up in your face.
Three issues which ruined it for me;
1:The monitor up close and in your face
2:The hand held gun was waaay to light (even though the accuracy seemed fine)
3: I was unable to find a frontend which you could shoot to select which game to play

The project was for a friend of mine and I always toyed with the idea of making one only to play the Exidy games. Now that our Classic Arcade Gaming contest is over and I have a little free time, I thought I would research the progress that has been made.

Thanks for all your feedback.

PS any of you guys going to Funspot for the tourney in May?
~

[Neverending Project]

3: I was unable to find a frontend which you could shoot to select which game to play

I believe some work has been done in this area. (Linkity)

[88mph]

My act labs gun just showed up, and I have done some testing with the setup.  As Richie said, the accuracy seems fine, and the precision is great (even at a distance). 

Right now I am using the -yflip command, to flip my Y axis.  I then convert this flipped image to a 'proper' image on a mirror.   When the gun is 'looking' at the mirror, it registers a shot on the screen every time.  Turn the gun right and left, and the shots track right and left.  But, if you point the gun up and down, you get the reverse result.  So there is an issue there. 

I tried fooling around with the control options to fix it, but no dice.   I did a few searches, and tried MAME32 based on some old posts, but it was still an issue. 

[richieknucklez]

Doh! I knew it. I was sort of hoping someone out there figured out a work around for the mirrored monitor problem. I had the same problem way back when..

maybe one day I will get me my multi exidy shooter

[88mph]

I've been fiddling around with a good way of interfacing the act labs board with the old Exidy hardware.  I'm not sure if my Exidy optic board is functioning at the moment.. it has three pins, one for 12V, one for ground, and another that outputs the signal from the photodiode.  I'm not sure how much of a voltage change there should be on this pin when it sees a blank screen versus seeing one that is lit up.  Any ideas?

I just put together a simple front end that allows the user to select games by shooting with the act labs gun.  Check out the screenshot: 



(I was working on some code to put some bullet holes in when a selection is made, but then my computer crashed.. )

[herbertsmart]

After several years of persistant pestering, Mike Doyle and Dave Widel will be doing another run of the Multi Exidy 440 kits.  There is a long thread on it over on KLOV:

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=34588

This is a one time deal with no plans for future production of the kit.  So if you are interested in this great kit get over to KLOV and send Mike your pre-order deposit.  i think they are taking pre-orders for two weeks, then closing the window to order them and building, testing, and shipping the completed kits.

Game list includes:

1 Crossbow
2 Cheyenne
3 Combat
4 Crackshot
5 Chiller
6 Clay Pigeon
7 Hit 'n Miss 3.0
8 Who Dunit
9 Catch-22

pre-orders also recieve a limted edition Exidy t-shirt!

Thanks to Mike and Dave for making this happen!!!