Dream Authentics LCD Claims

[FrizzleFried]

CAUTION

NEVER use LCD Flat Screen TELEVISIONS to play classic arcade games. Do not be fooled - DO THE RESEARCH.

LCD "Televisions" are made to watch Television - NOT play demanding classic arcade games that all have different sizes and refresh rates. BEWARE! Arcade games over time will DESTROY LCD Televisions.  You will have to replace the TV many times over the life of an arcade cabinet.

DO YOUR OWN INDEPENDENT RESEARCH PLEASE. Ask yourself the question - why do commercial arcade cabinets use ARCADE MONITORS and not televisions. There must be a good reason...the Professionals have done the research for you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dual-Video-Arcade-Game-2-Player-Cabinet-for-PC-MAME-tm_W0QQitemZ110365538823QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110365538823&_trksid=p4011.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308

Oh Really?  While I agree that an authentic arcade monitor is the way to go,  the rest of this quote what I question...

Opinions?

[pinballwizard79]

Yeah I sent them a message back in the day asking if their systems are PC based.

When they said yes I reminded them how a TV out graphic card will not send damaging signals out to the TV & LCD based displays connected to a PC via VGA have been working fine for the rest of the world as is so I have to question the integrity of such a statement.

They said "oh we now offer them in LCD"

I said "send pics".

Never heard back.

[Xiaou2]

A CRT will generally outlast an LCD by at least if not more than 2x its lifetime.
LCDs backlights are only rated for so many hours, and even the ratings can be
inaccurate... as bulbs can and do fail prematurely.

 (that and todays electronics seem to have a very short lifespan due to shoddy
worksmanship and poor components + non-lead solider which is causing
too many electrical shorts from hairs/burrs that form in the manufacturing process)

 I question the fact that games will destroy an lcd.  The only thing that can
occur is a sort of stuck-image.. but it can be undone with certain procedures.

 The poor refresh however will be the biggest issue.

[SavannahLion]

Oh Really?  While I agree that an authentic arcade monitor is the way to go,  the rest of this quote what I question...

Didn't some of the early cabinets use modified television sets? Even the Atari vector manual mentions using "Standard" CRT tubes. Besides, have these fools actually tried to pump a signal into an LCD TV that the TV didn't like? Not like anything actually happens with those limiting circuits. Like X' mentions, I'd probably be more worried about a burned bulb than a burned out LCD.

why do commercial arcade cabinets use ARCADE MONITORS and not televisions. There must be a good reason...the Professionals have done the research for you.

I don't suppose it has anything to do with the last time anyone actually saw a television set that accepted a straight 15KHz RGBS signal?

[FrizzleFried]

A CRT will generally outlast an LCD by at least if not more than 2x its lifetime.
LCDs backlights are only rated for so many hours, and even the ratings can be
inaccurate... as bulbs can and do fail prematurely.

 (that and todays electronics seem to have a very short lifespan due to shoddy
worksmanship and poor components + non-lead solider which is causing
too many electrical shorts from hairs/burrs that form in the manufacturing process)

 I question the fact that games will destroy an lcd.  The only thing that can
occur is a sort of stuck-image.. but it can be undone with certain procedures.

 The poor refresh however will be the biggest issue.

But X,  you and I both know an average arcade machine in the home isn't going to see enough usage to have any issues with an LCD for a decade or more...

The quote is disingenuous.... and the ebay ad in it's entirety (with the super huge fonts,  and colors,  etc) is absurd.   These people are being less than truthful trying to sell there wares.  IF they'd have simply explained that CRT's are more authentic and provide the ability to run many of the different games at their correct resolution,  they'd be good as gold.  As soon as they try to explain that arcade machines kill LCD's,   they're stepping in to douchetastic territory IMHO.

BTW:  I found this link at KLOV where the guys there were laughing at it and going on about "What's AUTHENTIC about a MAME cab", etc.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like this,  while minor for sure,  does put punch a black eye on the MAME community (in the eyes of truly "AUTHENTIC" arcade machine collectors).

[Blanka]

Why do they sell LCD models then? 
http://dreamauthentics.com/product_page_1_ka.html
http://dreamauthentics.com/product_page_kiocade.html

[CheffoJeffo]

Not that I agree with him, but he was pretty specific about TELEVISIONS.

[Turnarcades]

Resolution switching is no more likely to damage an LCD TV than an LCD monitor, and not much more than a CRT in normal use. At the end of the day, most PC's/graphics cards/TV's have limiting measures anyway that prevent damage like that.

[AMDman13]

I doubt it would damage an LCD. Why anyone would want to use an LCD to display arcade graphics is beyond me. Might as well play Mame on a laptop. If you want to stand up then set in a book case.

[Haze]

There's nothing wrong with the quote.

The reason MAME has some ugly hacks to run the games at an adjusted refresh rate (and therefore not authentic speeds) is because a lot of LCD screens will just reject anything that isn't 60hz, or render it at 60hz regardless (I assume by interpolating the frames or dropping some thus resulting in non-smooth scrolling even if the PC *thinks* everything is vsynced because the monitor is lying)

Likewise, LCD monitors will upscale / downscale non-standard resolutions to whatever their fixed resolution is with their own filtering, which often looks awful.  The custom resolutions arcade games use won't scale 1:1 to the fixed resolutions offered by LCD displays.

Some newer arcade games do actually use LCD monitors tho, I've seen a couple recently.  A lot of the modern ones are PC based, and they're cheaper, so it probably makes sense for them.

As far as classics are concerned, the quote is 100% correct however.

[CheffoJeffo]

But will it *destroy* an LCD TV ? Honest question because I don't have any background in LCDs.

Last I heard Rick Niemann was working on LCDs as drop-in replacements for older arcade monitors, so I would have to assume that there is something to what he is doing.

[ChadTower]

Arcade monitors are televisions minus control circuitry.  No tuner, no sound, direct signal input, otherwise it's a TV.  You can take the CRT right out of a TV, if it has a compatible deflection angle, and drop it into an arcade monitor with some wiring tweaks.

Those statements are a used car dealer's attempt to keep people buying old cars.

[MrMojoZ]

There's nothing wrong with the quote.

Classic arcade games will not destroy LCDs, there is certainly something wrong with the quote.

[dreamakuma]

If LCD's are so bad for arcade games why do they make these?

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/acv-011-cga-to-vga-converter/prod_252.html

While I myself want a new monitor(but dont have the Cash *sigh*), An LCD looks like the way for me to go. Since where I'm at I can get a 20" used for $100.

[Haze]

If LCD's are so bad for arcade games why do they make these?

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/acv-011-cga-to-vga-converter/prod_252.html

While I myself want a new monitor(but dont have the Cash *sigh*), An LCD looks like the way for me to go. Since where I'm at I can get a 20" used for $100.

because they can?  If there is a demand for something people will sell a product.  That doesn't mean it's perfect, nor even always mean it's safe.

As for destroying them, it depends how they react to signals they can't actually display properly, although the same could be said for standard ones if you do 'bad' things with them.  I doubt any of the LCDs were designed with people throwing the obscure frequencies many arcade boards will generate at them at the very least, and I wouldn't be surprised if you found your warranty invalidated by doing so.

Proper CRT displays are better for Arcade games due to their flexibility in terms of resolution and refresh.  An LCD can't, and never will offer that.

[FrizzleFried]

If LCD's are so bad for arcade games why do they make these?

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/acv-011-cga-to-vga-converter/prod_252.html

While I myself want a new monitor(but dont have the Cash *sigh*), An LCD looks like the way for me to go. Since where I'm at I can get a 20" used for $100.

because they can?  If there is a demand for something people will sell a product.  That doesn't mean it's perfect, nor even always mean it's safe.

As for destroying them, it depends how they react to signals they can't actually display properly, although the same could be said for standard ones if you do 'bad' things with them.  I doubt any of the LCDs were designed with people throwing the obscure frequencies many arcade boards will generate at them at the very least, and I wouldn't be surprised if you found your warranty invalidated by doing so.

Proper CRT displays are better for Arcade games due to their flexibility in terms of resolution and refresh.  An LCD can't, and never will offer that.

The argument isn't whether or not LCD's are better than CRT's for displaying arcade games.  I think just about everyone here would agree that CRT's are certainly the better choice.  The argument is whether or not running arcade games through an LCD will destroy it or not and whether or not that claim is disingenuous or not.

[ChadTower]

LCDs have a fraction of the serviceability and no proven lifespan compared to CRTs.  It's a pretty safe bet to say "your LCD is going to be killed" when it really can't be repaired and any failure can be assigned an "I told you so".  CRTs don't "last 20 years" either - you have to repair them a few times during that span.  How many LCDs can be repaired at all?

[Blanka]

Probably the only thing that will die on an LCD is the fluorescent tube. I guess it's not very hard to replace. In the worst case, you can make a new backlight out of regular TL5 tubes with a good diffuser.

[Ummon]

Hm. I don't know why they're at all mentioning it.

[pinballwizard79]

There is indeed something wrong with the statement made by dream authentics as it is a lie.

You have a PC, you tell the GC what to output, the end.

I see nothing wrong with using LCD displays for a MAME cabinet, it WILL NOT destroy the LCD or cause a micro big bang to occur. Those of you hellbent on LCD bashing need to sell your MAME in the name authenticity & donate the funds to the 700 club to end the production of satanic toys.

My next machine will be LCD based, screw buying a heavy CRT costing $125 to ship/insure & destined to fail with only a small group of techs able to work on it. I'd rather buy a flat panel from Sams, Costco or Best buy with a service plan ensuring the next half decade will be trouble free.

What will you do when CRT's no longer exist?

Because that day is so very near 

BTW I have a WG 33" & wish it were a 42" Sony

[CheffoJeffo]

You have a PC, you tell the GC what to output, the end.

I see nothing wrong with using LCD displays for a MAME cabinet, it WILL NOT destroy the LCD or cause a micro big bang to occur. Those of you hellbent on LCD bashing need to sell your MAME in the name authenticity & donate the funds to the 700 club to end the production of satanic toys.

My next machine will be LCD based, screw buying a heavy CRT costing $125 to ship/insure & destined to fail with only a small group of techs able to work on it. I'd rather buy a flat panel from Sams, Costco or Best buy with a service plan ensuring the next half decade will be trouble free.

What will you do when CRT's no longer exist?

Because that day is so very near 

BTW I have a WG 33" & wish it were a 42" Sony

Are you sure that you're not genesim ?

 

[pinballwizard79]

Death by unga bunga!

U dunno what that word means btw 

[CheffoJeffo]

FWIW, it does appear that the day is coming ... Happ's suppliers are no longer manufacturing CRTs and apparently the "unspoken for" stock of 19" Vision Pros, including the last shipment coming in, is fewer than 275 pieces.

Time to check that I have enough 19" monitors for my projects.

EDIT: I just saw on KLOV that they are already oversold on the final shipment. Time to brush up on my Randy Fromm videos and scrounge for some 19" colour tubes.

[pinballwizard79]

Well the CRT fanboys can always listen for commercials on their AM crystal radios or chum it up with their ham radio pals when in the CRT market.

LOL, my god I sound like such a tool dont I?

Man I am so sorry about that.

But still............ Dream Arcades has made some !!!outlander!!! children of the corn accusations against LCD's & they are loosing credibility for it.

[CheffoJeffo]

LOL, my god I sound like such a tool dont I?

Yes, yes you do ...

[Blanka]

Don't worry, in 5 years you can buy 300dpi OLED foil, and you can heat-wrap it on your old 19 inch tube. Your Geforce 580GTX6 takes care of the pacman-tridot pattern emulation with realistic afterglow and the massive 512Gb Solid-State VRAM takes care of the usage-history to present an accurate burn-in image.

[ChadTower]

Probably the only thing that will die on an LCD is the fluorescent tube. I guess it's not very hard to replace. In the worst case, you can make a new backlight out of regular TL5 tubes with a good diffuser.

I've had several people ask me to fix their LCDs that had perfectly working backlights.  The power supplies crap out and so do the controller boards - just like any other mass produced complex electronic device.  The power supplies are usually replaceable but the damn SMD controllers are pretty much death sentences if anything on it dies.

[MonMotha]

Swapping surface mount components isn't nearly as hard as people seem to think it is.  The challenge is usually just buying the darned things in small quantity.  However, that's becoming quite a problem on the "digital" CRT sets, too.  If the micro dies, you can't get one with the right firmware on it.

Really, the reason these aren't repairable is because it isn't worth it to do so.  Making the device easier to repair would inflate the price by ~10-25%, and prices are already so low that it isn't worth paying a repairman for his/her time, so why not shave the extra 10-25% off and just make replacement cost less.  Besides, when it dies, you'll be able to buy something 10 times better for 1/10th the price.

As for killing an LCD by playing games on it, you won't.  One of the nice things about LCDs is that pretty much nothing kills them except time.

Of course, this doesn't mean LCDs are good for gaming.  I like my (very high end) LCD PC monitor just fine, but for gaming I use a Sony GDM-FW900 or a real arcade monitor (CRT, of course).  I do have one cabinet with a Plasma on it (and yes, it's very burned), but that's just because you can't buy 40" widescreen CRTs.

[ChadTower]

Really, the reason these aren't repairable is because it isn't worth it to do so.  Making the device easier to repair would inflate the price by ~10-25%, and prices are already so low that it isn't worth paying a repairman for his/her time, so why not shave the extra 10-25% off and just make replacement cost less.  Besides, when it dies, you'll be able to buy something 10 times better for 1/10th the price.

That's pretty much where I was going.  Unless you can swap a replacement board in, and those tend to go OOP within 12 months of production, it's just not worth the repair cost most of the time now.  Sad, really, as it produces even more toxic electronic trash than before.

[RandyT]

Swapping surface mount components isn't nearly as hard as people seem to think it is.  The challenge is usually just buying the darned things in small quantity. 

Heh.  Another big challenge is just identifying the parts.  Not such a big deal if you happen to have a schematic, but that's often very difficult to come by for some of these "here today, gone tomorrow" boards you find in LCD panels.

Small parts often means cryptic labeling.

[SavannahLion]

Really, the reason these aren't repairable is because it isn't worth it to do so.  Making the device easier to repair would inflate the price by ~10-25%, and prices are already so low that it isn't worth paying a repairman for his/her time, so why not shave the extra 10-25% off and just make replacement cost less.  Besides, when it dies, you'll be able to buy something 10 times better for 1/10th the price.

That's pretty much where I was going.  Unless you can swap a replacement board in, and those tend to go OOP within 12 months of production, it's just not worth the repair cost most of the time now.  Sad, really, as it produces even more toxic electronic trash than before.

Finally! Someone who actually "gets it." Even if you were to strip the lead and other (much needed) toxic metals out, any environmental "savings" one gains is moot when those "green" electronics gets dumped, trashed, or shipped out to China for "recycling."

What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

Anyhow, I digress. I just believe CRT is getting a bad rap from the environmentalists, especially considering environmentalists can't decide whether we should use renewable resources, or save a few tortoises.

[MonMotha]

What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

Actually, CRT televisions have gotten to the same point as LCDs.  They're so cheap that it's not worth paying a repairman to work on them.  This is especially true of the models targeted at people who would actually buy a CRT over an LCD (mostly small, cheap ones).  Why pay a repairman $100 to show up plus $50/hr (or whatever) when you can just go buy a new TV for $100 (or less!) and be done with it?

You could argue that the TV repairman is overcharging, but he/she is simply charging what he/she needs to.  See, if he/she were to go into a different industry as a technician, the billable rate would be about the same.  How much do you pay electricians?  Plumbers?  There is a reason TV repairmen are getting harder and harder to find.

What has happened is that production costs have gotten SO cheap that it now costs less to build a new television than anybody is willing to fix it for.  This is mostly due to the disparity in labor rates between the production site (usually mainland China these days, but sometimes Taiwan, Korea, or Singapore) and where the repairman lives (the USA).  This has benefits: new TVs are really, really cheap.  However, it also has downsides: more waste due to everything being "disposable" since it makes no economic sense to repair it.

Heh.  Another big challenge is just identifying the parts.  Not such a big deal if you happen to have a schematic, but that's often very difficult to come by for some of these "here today, gone tomorrow" boards you find in LCD panels.

Small parts often means cryptic labeling.

True, though I've inevitably found that, once I do finally ID them, I can't buy parts like that anyway.  They're usually only for sale in China or Korea and in rather large volumes to boot.  Generally, if I can manage to track down the defective part on a board, I'll just find an identical or similar model that's broken and attempt to swap parts around one works.  Gets around the part sourcing problem, and you don't even have to identify the part fully aside from verifying that it's the same thing on both units.

[SavannahLion]

What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

Actually, CRT televisions have gotten to the same point as LCDs.  They're so cheap that it's not worth paying a repairman to work on them.  This is especially true of the models targeted at people who would actually buy a CRT over an LCD (mostly small, cheap ones).  Why pay a repairman $100 to show up plus $50/hr (or whatever) when you can just go buy a new TV for $100 (or less!) and be done with it?

You could argue that the TV repairman is overcharging, but he/she is simply charging what he/she needs to.  See, if he/she were to go into a different industry as a technician, the billable rate would be about the same.  How much do you pay electricians?  Plumbers?  There is a reason TV repairmen are getting harder and harder to find.

What has happened is that production costs have gotten SO cheap that it now costs less to build a new television than anybody is willing to fix it for.  This is mostly due to the disparity in labor rates between the production site (usually mainland China these days, but sometimes Taiwan, Korea, or Singapore) and where the repairman lives (the USA).  This has benefits: new TVs are really, really cheap.  However, it also has downsides: more waste due to everything being "disposable" since it makes no economic sense to repair it.

Yeah, I see your point. That illustrates another problem as well. The whole "throw-away" mentality is a pretty dangerous path we're taking. There's just no way we can sustain this kind of consumption and waste.

[BobA]

LCDs do not have the staying power of older electronics.   Everyone has seen the TV that their parents have had for 22 years and still looks fairly good.   The lighting for LCD screens is not made to last that long but then the LCD TV costs only a fraction of what a 20 inch CRT TV cost over 20 years ago.  We get 4 or 5 years out of new appliances of any sort but they cost only a fraction of what the older appliances cost.  It is a sad statement of fact that it is a throw away society.  You cannot fix many new appliances (TVs Monitors Etc) due to the lack of replaceable parts and the lack of people with the skills to do the repair.  The TV repair guy who replaced a couple of tubes and tweaked your TV 25 years ago cannot replace SMD and other many pinnned ICs without being many many times more expensive and very much more knowledgeable about the new technologies.   How many TV repair shops or monitor repair shops exist in your city or town?

It is possible to fix desktop PCs due to the replaceable parts inside but try to fix most laptops.   You cannot get the MB for a decent price from the manufacturer because they do not sell to inidividuals and if you go to a service center the cost is most likely to be more than you want to spend on a 3 year old laptop.  It is cheaper to buy a new laptop with 200% or more more capacity for less then the MB replacement and labour would cost you.

There are advantages to this rapid obsolecence.   Many of my MAME or JUKEBOX computers have come from people who have upgraded and are willing to throw away their old computers.

It is not just computers, most newer appliances do not last as long as the older ones.  I had a dishwasher that lasted almost 20 years and a washer dryer set that was even older.  I do not expect my new appliances (new house) to last even one half that time.

It is a sad state of our society but throw away is where it seems to be.

But back to the topic.   LCDs will soon be the only available option.   They are not as bad as Dream Authentics would have us believe.  Most LCD monitors are very tolerent of out of freq signals.  They will just tell you the signal is out of range and not display them.  This is very different from CRT montors that would try to display out of range signals and do damage to themselves.   It may not be 100 percent arcade true but it is all we will have in the future.

[SavannahLion]

It is a sad state of our society but throw away is where it seems to be.

IMHO, it's a very deadly way to go. There's no way we can sustain that kind of consumption for any length of time. The raw materials have to come from somewhere and all that crap has to go somewhere. Our "recycling" is too weak at this point to be even considering that kind of society. Improve the recycling programs to where that crap isn't going off to Guiyu China to die. As much as I don't really like it, but I'm wonder if greater standardization would be the best compromise? We have some standardization at the consumer level, but what about down at the component level? Know how laptop monitors are, for the most part, not interchangeable? Well, make them interchangeable. Use standardized communication protocols. Standard components so that all 42" LCD's use essentially the same components. Most products are outsourced anyways, my LCD TV reports itself as a Zenith to my laptop even though it's badged as a different brand.

Even though it's not technically a repair, it's probably a better solution to make components standardized so your average repair guy can just pull a board or part off the shelf from company X and pop it into a TV from company Y.

edit: To clarify that last point, I mean to make replacement boards and parts a true commodity like 7400 or 4000 series ICs.

But back to the topic.   LCDs will soon be the only available option.   They are not as bad as Dream Authentics would have us believe.  Most LCD monitors are very tolerent of out of freq signals.  They will just tell you the signal is out of range and not display them.  This is very different from CRT montors that would try to display out of range signals and do damage to themselves.   It may not be 100 percent arcade true but it is all we will have in the future.

I think my pet peeve about LCD's isn't so much as how they'll be the only option. It's more akin to how there's this movement forcing us towards ZERO legacy support. I don't mind HDMI support, but I would also like a TV that support older inputs as well. Even if this means creating a modular "port" where I would have to buy a separate module with that support. That would be fine with me. A way to keep costs down for those who don't want or need legacy support while giving those of us with old-ass equipment the option to have that legacy support. I'm sure we're (arcade enthusiasts) not the only group of people still holding on to 20, 30 year old equipment. Alas, I can dream.

[ChadTower]

Seriously.  Why can't I hook my 2600 to my LCD?!

Yeah, I mean that.  No coax and no VCR means I have to mod the old consoles to get composite or Svid.

[Flake]

Seriously.  Why can't I hook my 2600 to my LCD?!

Yeah, I mean that.  No coax and no VCR means I have to mod the old consoles to get composite or Svid.

Are you really mad that LCD TV's dont incorporate a techology that would only be used for something like a 30 yr. old 2600 system?  The total market for that would = total members of this forum * 50% (at most).  No one outside of the limited number of people hooking up a 30yr. old console system needs that technology so clearly the cost benefit isnt there. 

Like everything else, the technology market evolves to give people what they want today not what they used 30 yrs. ago.  If they did they wouldnt be in business because they would never have anything new to sell and so once the market was flooded with 20" crt's and 2600's there would only be business for the TV repairman.

Face it people CRT's are going the way of the dodo if they're not already there.....just like the arcades.  If you want CRT's to live on start a business that sells them and somehow markets their.....benefits....yea, benefits.  Let me know when you do this because I want to come bid on all your co-op stuff at your bankruptcy liquidation auction.   

[CheffoJeffo]

Face it people CRT's are going the way of the dodo if they're not already there.....just like the arcades.  If you want CRT's to live on start a business that sells them and somehow markets their.....benefits....yea, benefits.  Let me know when you do this because I want to come bid on all your co-op stuff at your bankruptcy liquidation auction.   

Variations of this thread have played out over virtually every arcade-related forum that I can think of.

This is the only place where people seem to relish the end of the CRT and taunt those of us who use CRTs.

What does that mean for those of us involved in true restoration and preservation of arcade goodness ?

[Todd H]

Face it people CRT's are going the way of the dodo if they're not already there.....just like the arcades.  If you want CRT's to live on start a business that sells them and somehow markets their.....benefits....yea, benefits.  Let me know when you do this because I want to come bid on all your co-op stuff at your bankruptcy liquidation auction.   

Variations of this thread have played out over virtually every arcade-related forum that I can think of.

This is the only place where people seem to relish the end of the CRT and taunt those of us who use CRTs.

What does that mean for those of us involved in true restoration and preservation of arcade goodness ?

Even though I'm using an LCD, I agree that the demise of the CRT monitor is a sad moment in arcade history. Nothing beats the authentic look of a good old fashioned CRT.

[pinballwizard79]

Cheffo if you want to be authentic then play your classics on an actual arcade CRT in the actual dedicated machine with actual controls & post about it on KLOV.

This is BYOAC & to those using emulation, LCD it up!!!!!!

To those using CRT (myself included) so be it.

But the self righteous banter of "my fake arcade is realer than your fake arcade" is so boooooooring.

[CheffoJeffo]

See -- you *are* genesim (and, for reference, that's not a good thing).

Only somebody with that level of arrogance could try to explain to the rest of us what this site is about. There is only one man (and you ain't him) who can tell me that this site is about emulation.

FWIW, I *do* play my classics on an actual arcade CRT in actual dedicated cabinets with actual controls ... and *THAT* was the point, you silly noob.

[northerngames]

 I know some arcade's leave there machine's pretty much on 24/7 365 and most machines are good for some time that way with no issues but I have no clue how long a lcd would hold up that well against a constant run like that.

 I know some of the lcd's they leave on at k-mart wal-mart and what not look terrible and have screen burn or color problems dead pixels etc. and they have not even been on their shelves very long as displays and they may even turn them off at night for all I know and if so they would get damaged even faster of coarse and the bulbs may burn up alot faster with a constant long run.

  

[pinballwizard79]

Do you think making a comment (which is stroking the moderator) & using words like "us" when I talk to "you" will create unity for your perspective?

Not even google knows what your word "genesim" means so pardon my ignorance. Furthermore I am not arrogant, just opinionated. You disagree with me & seem to view it otherwise.

My status is noob?

HAHA!

Congratulations on buying some dedicated machines, I guess you are now a true authority on all things arcade related. If only I had the $1,700.00 it takes to buy 9 beater machines on ebay.

I typed this on a LCD monitor BTW

Cheffo I am not here to battle you, we have much in common......just not LCD opinions.

I also edited this on a LCD monitor

[CheffoJeffo]

As I told genesim, I have lots of LCDs .. including the monitors that I use with my computers, such as the one I am posting from.

As I told genesim, I don't object to folks using LCDs in their PC-based cabinets.

As I told genesim, the sad thing is that the folks who lose from the demise of the CRT are the folks who actually are preserving actual arcade machines.

Only a noob would think that I would "stroke" a moderator -- if I had a dollar for every time that saint thought about banning me, I could probably open that store that Flake talked about.

You deigned to make the ridiculous statement that "this is BYOAC" and that my viewpoint doesn't below here -- that's arrogant.

I don't think that you understand what my perspective actually is -- I am sad because the demise of the CRT makes restoration and preservation more difficult, not because I think everybody should put CRTs in their MAIM cabs.

I am not sure why you seem to think that I have 9 beater machines that I got from eBay. I have 24 machines, of which 8 are beaters, but none of those beaters came from eBay.

You may not be here to battle me, but I am one of those folks who love coin-op and don't like it when folks cheer events that harm the hobby.

[pinballwizard79]

Settle down Steven Segall I was only off by one beater, you have 8 not 9.

FYI: I am not cheering at the demise of CRT for the purpose of restorations.

Thanks for the nickname of genesim, yours is "arcade prima donna".

Death by ungabunga!!!

Whatev, Cheffo lets get back to drinking & retro gaming (on the same team)!!!!!!!

[Blanka]

Seriously.  Why can't I hook my 2600 to my LCD?!

This LCD is pretty capable:

Problem still is the 2600 though. A console without composite is ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. And then the 2600 itself. It got Americans addicted to gaming, but that's the only memorable fact. Remember Pac-Man for the 2600? Even the Philips P2000 had better Pac-Man.

And it didn't become a hit in Europe, so it was not that good. So 2600 is mostly for T-shirts now:

The games can be forgotten.

[Flake]

This is the only place where people seem to relish the end of the CRT and taunt those of us who use CRTs.

What does that mean for those of us involved in true restoration and preservation of arcade goodness ?

Look, I have a CRT TV in my cab and I love it.  I'm not trying to accelerate the push of CRT's out the door.  I'm merely saying this is where we are at and this is were we are going - you either accept that now or I suppose you can continue to post 17,000 messages about your love for CRT's.  But eventually this is going to fall on deaf ears. 

I personally dont "relish" the end of the CRT, for me specifically, I dont know where the hell I'm going to get a 4:3 aspect ration display once my 27" Toshiba CRT TV display shoots craps.

I suggest if your that worried about it you should make a point to spend your entire savings stocking up on what arcade monitors are still out there.  Think of it this way, you could have the little market of die hard CRT users cornered.  Who knows, you may even make a profit....

[CheffoJeffo]

OK, I've been a little punchy lately and this topic is one of those that sets me off (perhaps due to the running battle with genesim last time around). I offer my apologies for going off on PBW79 and Flake.

As for stocking up, I have 7 monitors in reserve, including 4 19", and will be picking up another today. Unfortunately, I have 5 projects requiring 19" monitors, so won't have any left in reserve.

It seems that Betson still has 19" in stock, but I don't know how long that will last. Ken has been kind enough to post a list of other suppliers over on KLOV.

I will be interested to see what RickN has been working on with respect to LCDs and classic games.

[Flake]

Cheffo -

Well hey you dont have to apologize to me, I didnt really take any offense to your comments.  I understand your point of view.

A little off topic but if you have 24 cabs you must have a sweet game room.  Why dont you post some pics for us all to see? You must have one of the largest collections on this forum.

Your not anti-digital camera are you?  Still using Polaroid?     I'm kidding of course, couldnt help myself.....

[CheffoJeffo]

The game room is a shambles and there are no immediate plans for renovation (RealLife(tm) stepped in and consumed the budget), so it isn't picture-worthy right now.

But, to show you how old school I have become, here is a picture of a game that I brought home today (thanks RayB -- she plays great!)... and for which replacement monitors have not been made for a LOOOOONG time.

[pinballwizard79]

They sell replacement monitors for that arcade here: http://promorx.com/poet.html 

Ok, that wasnt nice..........sorry.

Anyway man a little salty talk between us is good so no apologies.......& I still dunno wtf this "genesim" thing means so post a wiki about it or be all old school & just type up an addendum for your encyclopedia britannica (ok, that was my last cheap shot I promise).

Truce.................for now

[CheffoJeffo]

genesim is a former member here and you aren't anywhere near as opinionated as he was, no matter what I said before.

 

[RetroGreg]

FWIW I have a 32" Vizio that has all the inputs I will ever need (coax, composite, s video, component, d sub, and HDMI). I could hook up any system I own to it. I researched all the tv's in my price range and specifically bought the one I did based on the inputs and reviews. They're out there if you look for them.

But I really doubt I would ever hook up my 2600 to it rather than just emulate what I want to play. It's not worth the space or dealing with the old harware. Not to mention if your paddles still work well. 

[wp34]

The game room is a shambles and there are no immediate plans for renovation (RealLife(tm) stepped in and consumed the budget), so it isn't picture-worthy right now.

But, to show you how old school I have become, here is a picture of a game that I brought home today (thanks RayB -- she plays great!)... and for which replacement monitors have not been made for a LOOOOONG time.

Wow that is cool.

[Barry Barcrest]

Probably the only thing that will die on an LCD is the fluorescent tube. I guess it's not very hard to replace. In the worst case, you can make a new backlight out of regular TL5 tubes with a good diffuser.

I've had several people ask me to fix their LCDs that had perfectly working backlights.  The power supplies crap out and so do the controller boards - just like any other mass produced complex electronic device.  The power supplies are usually replaceable but the damn SMD controllers are pretty much death sentences if anything on it dies.

The only thing i have had to replace is the invertor. People normaly say that the backlight is gone when in actual fact it's the invertor.

[Ummon]

What does that mean for those of us involved in true restoration and preservation of arcade goodness ?

Hahahahahah.

[ChadTower]

The games can be forgotten.

Yeah, that flies on a forum like this.   

[Blanka]

Yeah, that flies on a forum like this.   

We are arcade junkies or not? The 2600 versions are not the most accurate ones. However, my statement was very loose, and I checked the real 2600 games AFTER my statement for the first time, and I have to admit that some games are genius on how they are stuffed onto 4Kb!

[SavannahLion]

The games can be forgotten.

Yeah, that flies on a forum like this.   

Or AtariAge. I can't think of very many groups that not only go out and make brand spanking new games for such an old console but go through the effort of printing, packaging and marketing those new games to the public. I only wish they wouldn't destroy old carts to do so (even if they're only ET's and Pacmans).

[ChadTower]

Or AtariAge. I can't think of very many groups that not only go out and make brand spanking new games for such an old console but go through the effort of printing, packaging and marketing those new games to the public. I only wish they wouldn't destroy old carts to do so (even if they're only ET's and Pacmans).

Truth.  I've been an AtariAge member way longer than BYOAC.

[Ummon]

I don't follow that one. Tons of each, neither liked. Quite good as fodder.

[XtraSmiley]

For you 2600 (and other) gamers out there, I got one of these about 7 years ago and it worked a million times better than that crappy RF box.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Atari-2600-%26-7800---NEW-TV-Audio-Video-Cable-dapter_W0QQitemZ270366885109QQcmdZViewItem

I paid about $1 for it then, but $5 now still seems like a steal to get one.  Also, the picture was much cleaner with this than the RF box I had.

[wbassett]

Not meaning to step on any toes, tick anyone off or say anything to start a fight!

I have a 22" CRT in my cab right now, but in defense of LCDs I had a 26" LCD hooked up to my primary personal computer (not to be confused with PC, but my own PC, not my work setup) and it literally has been running 24x7 since 2005. 

When I say 'had', it doesn't mean it died.  I replaced my main computer's 26" LCD with a 32" LCD and moved the 26" over to my secondary system in my computer room.  It is still working perfect and just as bright as ever and not a single bad pixel.

I personally wouldn't have any problem switching to an LCD in my cab as far as fear of failure.  BTW, I bought my 32" LCD AND a 22" LCD for my work PC (Both 720p HDTVs with PC inputs) for less than what I paid for the 26 incher four years ago!

Will I have them 20 years from now?  Probably not.  But I doubt my 22" CRT will last that long either.

[Bluedeath]

LCD panel itself (in theory) lasts almost forever what gets dim overtime is the backlight but replacing it costs more thank buyng a new one. Panel controller tends to die more for bad assembly than from the ages.
Said that unless you are buildiong a cab to play Street fighter4 /street fighter vs tastunoko o soldner X (that are the current generation arcade cames and are 16/9) i would use a CRT.

[AndyWarne]

There are quite a few issues with the original statement.

The very first arcade monitors were TVs with the RF and other unnecessary parts not fitted to the PCB.
Then the next variants, the most common, were based on TV electronics but with specifically designed chassis. Thats why they are 15Khz scan rate, as a TV, and they used TV CRTs. CRT tubes used in all the classic arcade monitors are TV tubes.
It also explains why they needed isolation transformers, as they used the same design of very simple non-isolated power supply as a TV.
 
LCDs will not be damaged by gaming. Plasma screen might be an issue when displaying game-type graphics over a very long period of time but not LCD.

LCDs which can accept 15Khz horizontal scan have been around for a while and are extensively used in Asian arcade cabs.

Its not the case that LCDs cannot display anything other than certain vertical scan rates such as 60 Hz etc. They do often have built-in limits but they will generally go down to around 45 Hz. The min horizontal scan rate is usually limited to 30Khz though so you cant connect a 15Khz source to a standard LCD screen, you would need one of the special 15Khz-capable ones.

But there is not really any point in getting a 15Khz-capable LCD for Mame because the picture will not be any different to a 31Khz one, and not be any closer to a CRT picture, where each scan line is a game pixel (when using native resolution). The LCD will have a large number of physical screen pixels per game pixel. If you run at 31Khz it just means twice the number of LCD pixels, vertically, than there would be at 15Khz.

Thats not to say there is no advantage in using native resolutions on an LCD screen. There is almost as much advantage as on a CRT screen, because no stretching is required to be done by the VGA card or Mame.

CRTs are almost history as eventually the last CRT tube plant will close and that will be the end of it.

Golden Tee, which are probably the most common real coin-op video machines are now using LCD.

Andy