The ideal pc

[dreamakuma]

 I'm planning to buy a pc for my cab, And I'm going to get a used custom one from a place so I need to know what would be a good pc that's not a crazy-new overclocked to all ---cleaveland steamer--- setup. I'm mostly running cps2 and neo geo games(and classics), Killer instinct 1 & 2, although 2 lags so I'm about to drop it. any idea's on what I should be asking for?

[atomikbohm]

When asking about specific games people seem to have an idea on what min requirements are for at least some games.  Is there a database around that I don't know about that has this information? 

I too am building a new PC in the near future and don't what to overspend but don't want to be underpowered either.

[mlalena]

There used to be this benchmarking site: http://benchmark.mameworld.net/
but mameworld.net let the domain name lapse, and now it is a typical domain parked for ads site.

I can summarize what the site would have told you:
Multi-core processors don't help with emulation, but the newer processors also have a faster bus and RAM so a 3GHz Core 2 Duo is still better than a 3.5GHz Pentium 4/D.
For the price, the current best bet seems to be an overclocked Intel 6850 or similar. It can run Gauntlet Legends and NFL Blitz at 100% if you do it right. See this post for details: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72776.0

I expect that the new Intel i7 would run MAME even faster, but the new architecture makes it a bit expensive. I think i7 motherboards start at $250 and would be more for one that will let you overclock.

[wbassett]

Right now in my cab I have an old AMD Thunderbird 1.2GHz with 256MB of ram and some generic AGP video card.  It plays probably 98% of the games I have loaded.  I haven't tried driving games on my cab so I don't know how it would handle them, but other than Pole Position I doubt it would be up to the task.

My son gave me a 'broken' PC, 3.2Ghz Hyperthreading CPU, 1GB of ram and onboard video.  The fix for the PC was a $14 heat sink and fan.   Anyway, one game that definitely won't play on my cab, and my main desktop also can't handle is a Star Wars game from Japan.  It won't even come up on the Thunderbird, and on my main desktop it's like watching it a frame at a time.  (Desktop is an older 2.6GHz with 512MB of ram and an NVideo video card).  The new PC I fixed runs this game with no problems or studders at all.

The main differences as noted are more ram and a faster CPU that does hyperthreading.  It's not a dual core or anything like that.  Aside from being .6Ghz faster and more ram, the biggest difference is the hyperthread technology.

I'm not trying to say this is the ultimate setup or that there isn't anything better out there-  I'm just passing on my personal experience running MAME on three different PCs and how well each worked.

One thing I'd definitely recommend looking for in your new PC is if you can set it in the BIOS so that it comes on when power is applied.  This way you can just flip one switch on a power strip or external cab switch and the PC automatically boots up.  My monitor also turns on as soon as power is applied, so my cab comes up with just one flip of a switch and no need to go inside and turn anything on.

[mlalena]

Thanks for the followup wbassett.
After reading your post, I realized some very important information was lacking in my post.

The overclocked Core 2 Duos help with some of the higher performance CHD games.
If you are only interested in pacman and similar, the old retired Pentium 3 would work.
Don't waste the money if you don't need it.

Also, I figured that mameworld.net would have acquired a new domain so I did some poking around and found they are now at http://www.mameworld.info/
I didn't see the benchmarks there (didn't look that hard) but it appears that they are still in the process of migrating to the new domain. I would keep checking back at that site for the benchmark database.

[IG-88]

Sorry to drag up an old thread. Was just wondering why/if wbasset's HT cpu would work better than a dual core cpu? Isn't the HT is basically faking what the dual core is actually doing? So neither one really helps with emulation like mlalena said, correct?

[saint]

http://benchmark.mameworld.info/

[taz-nz]

Sorry to drag up an old thread. Was just wondering why/if wbasset's HT cpu would work better than a dual core cpu? Isn't the HT is basically faking what the dual core is actually doing? So neither one really helps with emulation like mlalena said, correct?

Wbassett doesn't say that the HT CPU is fast than a Dual Core, he say the 3.2 HT is noticably faster than his 2.6.

It had to know without know the exact spec of the two systems, but I'm willing to guess the his 2.6 CPU is an early Pentium 4 with a 400 or 533 FSB running on a 845 chipset with single channel DDR 266. Where as the 3.2 HT will likely have a 800 FSB and dual Channel DDR 400, the Pentium really didn't become a good CPU until the 800FSB HT models were released along with the 875 chipset & 865 chipsets.

Clock for clock the older P4 system (presuming it's not a Celeron) would have no hope of keeping up with the newer HT P4 system, add in the 23% clock speed advantage the HT P4 has and it's no contest. While the hyperthreading probably does little to speed up MAME itself, it does help if you have a lot of rublish running in the back ground, by allow MAME skip the que instead of waiting for back ground task to finish with the CPU.
 
MAME preformance scales linearly with clock speed so straight away the MAME preformance on the 3.2 is going to be 23% better than on the 2.6 before you take into account the other advantages the 3.2 system has. So it probably has little to do HT and more to the system as a whole.

Early versions of MAME gain little to nothing from Dual Core CPUs, the current versions gain a huge amount of preformance when running on a Dual Core, this is most noticable on those ROMs with multi threaded drivers.

If you want MAME to run fast get a Core 2 Duo and overclock it.



 

[Blanka]

It's not only Ghz, a 2ghz core2duo single core is faster than a 3ghz P4. Core2Duo optimized more than just putting 2 chips in one.
The E8400 is still very much bang for the buck, and I like the 9500GT for graphics. It's about the fastest card without extra power-supply cable, so relatively cool.

[IG-88]

Thanks for the answers guys. Another question then,

If you want MAME to run fast get a Core 2 Duo and overclock it.

Would a quad core save the trouble then of overclocking?

The reason I'm asking about this is because all I've ever really wanted to play is the early classic stuff but I've had some friends ask about the CHD games and I thought I'd build a fairly budget cab for that purpose. Without putting alot of time or $$ into it. Something I could just "slap" together hardware wise.

All I really need is CPU and Mobo recommendations. And I guess a vid card.

@Blanka: I will check out your suggestions later on.

[taz-nz]

Would a quad core save the trouble then of overclocking?

All I really need is CPU and Mobo recommendations. And I guess a vid card.

No MAME is only partly multi threaded so you don't gain a lot going from a Core2Duo to a Core2Quad (or Core i7).  It's the preformance per clock of the Core2 core, combined with it's ability to be heavily overclocked that makes it's so great for MAME, not the number of cores is has.

If your trying to keep the budget down, I recommend the following:

Intel Core2Duo E7500 CPU (overclock to 4.0ghz)
Sunbeam Core-Contact Freezer heatsink
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3L motherboard ($25 less for an open box one)
Corsair TWIN2X2048-6400 2x 1GB DDR2-800 Ram
Gigabyte GV-R455D3-512I Radeon HD4550 512MB graphics card.

Have a read of my benchmark/overclocking/MAME preformance thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72776.0

[Blanka]

Intel Core2Duo E7500 CPU (overclock to 4.0ghz)

The E8400 is only 20$ more, for that you get 1333mhz fsb instead of 1066, and double the cache (which makes it 10% faster on equal ghz). Consider to spend those bucks!

[retrometro]

Has anyone posted out of the box or overclocked numbers for the new i7 CPUs yet for some of the more intensive games yet?

All I've come across are the 4ghz core2duo ones in search. 

thanks!

[IG-88]

Very nice guys, thanks. I added an extra 2gigs of ram. Necessary? I'm still under $400.

I'm thinking a new PSU might be a good idea too. What are your suggestions?

[taz-nz]

Intel Core2Duo E7500 CPU (overclock to 4.0ghz)

The E8400 is only 20$ more, for that you get 1333mhz fsb instead of 1066, and double the cache (which makes it 10% faster on equal ghz). Consider to spend those bucks!

Please note my recommendation were based on trying to keep the cost down, my recommendations for the optimal overclock setup would be noticably different.

The E7500 lower FSB is of little importance as when you overclock the CPU to 4ghz, you would be running a 400mhz (1600) FSB. What is of more importance is the CPUs Multiplier, the E7500 has 11x stock Mutliplier, where as the E8400 has a 9x Multiplier, thus the E8400 needs to a 445Mhz FSB to reach 4ghz and there for need DDR2-1066 Ram, where as with the E7400 you can drop the Multiplier to 10x and run a 400Mhz FSB which mean you only need DDR-800 ram and you can get away with a cheaper motherboard, which helps keep the cost down.

The CPU binning also comes into it play, the E8400 has the worst binner of the E8#00 series CPUs were as the E7500 has the best binning of the E7#00 series CPU, the cheapest models in any series of CPUs often overclock no where near as well as the top models in the same range. Because of this it's possible the E7500 will overclock better that the E8400 purely due to binning.  (note: there is always a good measure of luck involved in overclocking)

MAME doesn't appear to be overly sensitive to memory bandwidth or cache memory, so the difference in cache memory is less likely to be noticable than some other apps. When I changed from my old E6850 to my E8500 clock for clock at 4ghz there was no noticably difference in MAME even with the 4MB vs 6MB cache difference.

I'd like to recommend an E8600, GA-EP45-UD3R, and 4GB of DDR-1066, etc to everyone, but it's not in everyones budget. If your looking at E8400 CPU I recommend getting the E8500 as with the right cooling you have a very good change of getting to 4.5ghz and it's only $25 more than the E8400.

Very nice guys, thanks. I added an extra 2gigs of ram. Necessary? I'm still under $400.

I'm thinking a new PSU might be a good idea too. What are your suggestions?

4GB will not hurt to have, it will help preformance a little if you running 64bit Vista, if your going to be running 32bit XP don't bother. I recommend:
Corsair TWIN2X4096-8500C5 2x 2GB DDR2-1066

A good brand name power supply is always a must, as long as your only going with a basic graphics card you can get away with a 400-450watt PSU, just make sure it's something like a Seasonic or Enermax, I'd rate a 400w brand name PSU over a no name 650w PSU any day. I'd recommend a ENERMAX ETK405AST 405W as a minimum.

[IG-88]

OK. better and better. I updated my wish list and I'm at $375. Very nice.

I'm a little nervous about overclocking. I've read a little and heard alot about it but never really tried it. Feel like walking a guy through it? I'd hate to fry the CPU or something.

I will also read your post you mentioned earlier. I was gonna print it but it's like 170 pages or some damn thing. How much more improvement will I get with a "stock" cpu vs. an "overclocked" one? I mean really, it's only for my beer drinking buds and all. If were only talking a few percentage points is it worth the effort? Or are we talking a marked improvement here?

[taz-nz]

OK. better and better. I updated my wish list and I'm at $375. Very nice.

I'm a little nervous about overclocking. I've read a little and heard alot about it but never really tried it. Feel like walking a guy through it? I'd hate to fry the CPU or something.

I will also read your post you mentioned earlier. I was gonna print it but it's like 170 pages or some damn thing. How much more improvement will I get with a "stock" cpu vs. an "overclocked" one? I mean really, it's only for my beer drinking buds and all. If were only talking a few percentage points is it worth the effort? Or are we talking a marked improvement here?

Overclocking is not as scary as it seems, shoot me a PM before you buy and I see what I can do to help.

Yeah, that thread took on a life of it's own, but there is a lot of useful info in there for those trying to get the most out of MAME.

MAME preformance scales linearly with clock speed, overclocking a 3ghz CPU to 4ghz is a 33% gain in clock speed, which in turn result in a 33% gain in MAME preformance, many of the most demanding MAME roms don't become playable until you get a Core2Duo to 4ghz. MAME is the ultimate Ghz whore, it will take all the clock speed you throw at it and still ask for more.

[UberCade]

I just recently built a monster PC and I'll do some benchmarking once I get my MAME set updated since there are folks out there asking about performance on a Core i7 system. I'm curious to see how it handles the newer roms as well, since I've never been able to play most of them. My system is as follows:

Intel Core i7 920 OC'ed to 3.8 GHz (stomps a mudhole in the 965, and still have headroom left for 4+ GHz)
ASUS P6T Deluxe
6 gigs of PC12800 RAM @ 1600 MHz
EVGA GeForce GTX 285 (trading up for a 295 in a couple weeks)
2x WD 150 GB VelociRaptors striped
SoundBlaster Xtreme Gamer 7.1
Dual-boot between Windows XP 64-bit and Windows 7 Beta (HUGE improvement over Vista)

Anyhoo as you can see my PC is capable of some monstrous performance numbers, so I'll throw MAME at it once I get updated (it's literally been a few years since I've updated my MAME set  ) and share the results.

FYI overclocking is not hard at all once you get the basic process down. Just stay away from insanely high overvoltages and monitor your temps and you'll be fine.

[Blanka]

Thought the TS was not interested in overclocking. Why then talk so much about that?
What is binning BTW?

[taz-nz]

Thought the TS was not interested in overclocking. Why then talk so much about that?
What is binning BTW?

Binning is a testing and selection process done on CPU during manufacture. Basically once all CPU dies have been etched in a silcon wafer, each die is tested, defective dies are marked and dumped when the wafer is cut in individual dies.
Now because the etching process is not purfect there are tiny difference in all the dies, when the dies are test some will be stable at high clock speeds, some will need less power, and some will produce less heat, the dies which come out best accross the board will end up in a bin together, lesser groups of dies will end up in other bins, thus the name binning.
The CPU dies with the best binning end up as the top of the range models like the E7500 where lower binned dies end up as models like the E7200. It goes further where some dies will have defect in area like the cache memory, so that part of the cache is disable and those dies go on to be models like the E5300 as the rest of the die still works perfectly.

The distribution of good, average and bad dies, follows a bell shaped curve, so you only a small numder of the dies on a silcon wafer will be good enough to be the top models, this is why chips like the E8600 cost so much more than the E8400 as there are only a limited number of dies that come up to spec for those models. CPU stepping changes are small changes in the manufacturing process or die design that result in more dies meeting the top binning standards, thus they can make faster models of the same CPU or lower the cost of the expensive models as they have more of them to go around.
   
The AMD Phenom II X3 is a great expample of binning, they start out as X4 dies, but because the fail to meet some requirement during binning, AMD dissables one core on the die and they become X3s instead of X4s, this is why it's possible to hack most Phenom II X3s back into an X4s as they are the same chip just with different binning. The same is true of GPUs, back in the day I hacked my Radeon X800 Pro into a X800 XT Platium Edition.