what is up with light guns?

[daywane]

what is the problem?
NES did it 
super NES did it 
Dream Cast did it 
I am sure others did it (consloes) 
what is the problem with PC 
GIVE ME A SIMPLE MONITOR OR TV VERSION I WILL BUY IT!
I have bought 2 types of guns so far (fecal mater in my honest openion)
hell give me a simple plug and play type system .... then I will buy the system needed.

[daywane]

more questions?
why can we Emulate consoles but not the light guns?

[TOK]

The problem was that PC CRT's were not locked to a single refresh rate.

The problem now is that flat panels don't support traditional light guns and require sensors outside the screen for position information.

[Ginsu Victim]

I have bought 2 types of guns so far (fecal mater in my honest openion)

Which two?

[Bleagh]

srsly, aside from getting the things to work the lcd topgun was as good as anything has ever gotten on any platform.

I guess unless your a nub that wants to drag the front of the gun across your monitor, scratching it up.  Hell, even in the arcades I stood a good 4 or so feet away.  I don't understand the complaints about the distance issue at all.  You can even mount the sensors on top and bottom of your monitor to gain like an extra foot if you need it.

[daywane]

I have bought 2 types of guns so far (fecal mater in my honest openion)

Which two?

act labs svid ray gun
LCD TOP gun

[daywane]

  Hell, even in the arcades I stood a good 4 or so feet away.  I don't understand the complaints about the distance issue at all.  You can even mount the sensors on top and bottom of your monitor to gain like an extra foot if you need it.

what?
I ran a arcade. Aladens castle.
no gun game made you stand that far back.
most guns were attached to cab.
even big buck hunter shot gun is not even close to 4 feet
4 feet at Aladins Castle and you would be standing inside another cab with a monitor sticking in your back.

[wbassett]

The other weekend we had a birthday party at Chucky Cheese for my 7 year old grandson.  We played a couple of the shooting games and my guestimate is we stood maybe 2' back from the screen.  If I pulled the cord as tight as it would allow me to move back, I still estimate I would have only been 3' back at most.

I have a first gen TopGun at home and it works (even for games like Jurasic Park) but in my setup (others claim much better response from their's... I can only attest to my own experience) with the sensors placed on the sides of my 22" monitor I have to stand around 5' back.  With them placed on the top and bottom of the monitor I am around 4' back. 

Accuracy for most point and shoot games where all you have to do is 'hit the monster' anywhere on it's body it works fine.  For games like Police Trainer or other target games that require more accuracy it works fine in the center area of the monitor, but towards the edges it starts to get erratic and you can see the cursor lag and how it starts to get further away from where you are pointing as you move away from the center of the screen. 

I've played with lights on and lights off, so it's not RF interference. 
It's not that I dislike the TopGun, I do like it but it has some bugs and in my opinion is a bit expensive for something that feels more like a toy and has some kinks and quirks.  The ActLab guns also have people that love them as well as those that hate them.  I never tried them because of the cost and some of the complaints I've read.  They cost most than the TopGun but the perfomance and reliability increase over the Topgun is questionable and again it depends on who you talk to.

I like the idea of the Opti Gun and Sonic Gun interfaces because it will allow us to use actual arcade guns (or buy the guts and make our own custom guns) and the guns themselves are built for abuse. 

I'm keeping my eye on the Sonic gun because I most likely will be switching from a CRT monitor to an LCD monitor in my cab.  The wireless TopGun really had some potential, but so far not many have used them and from what I've read those that have weren't too impressed with the performance or installation.

Dave's options (when available) may cost a bit more but since they are made to go into actual arcade machines it seems like they will have the quality to go along with the price.  Just as an FYI though...  a dual TopGun setup will run around $100-130 depending on where you get them and shipping, and a dual ActLabs setup will set you back around $200.  It doesn't sound like the Sonic or Optic boards are going to be a huge cost increase over the other options, especially if they come out with the consumer version that doesn't have all the button an joystick inputs or the amplifier.

[TOK]

Accuracy for most point and shoot games where all you have to do is 'hit the monster' anywhere on it's body it works fine.  For games like Police Trainer or other target games that require more accuracy it works fine in the center area of the monitor, but towards the edges it starts to get erratic and you can see the cursor lag and how it starts to get further away from where you are pointing as you move away from the center of the screen. 

I've been playing House Of The Dead Overkill on the Wii. I have no experience with the Top Gun, but I think it's similar technology and exhibits the exact same symptoms of being accurate mid-screen and degrading wildly at the edges.

Its very frustrating to try to hit small targets like the health packs and gold items that appear on the edges of the screen. They include a circular reticule, and I don't think I could even play the game without it because the gun is so vague... The "gun" in this instance being a Wii remote stuck in a Nyko perfect shot, which resembles a pistol grip.
 

[Minwah]

I know there are technical reasons, but I agree it seems pretty ridiculous that we had consoles with guns which worked very well (maybe my memory is wrong?) over 20 years ago and there still isn't a decent PC gun.

That said, there were crap ones back in the day too...the one for the Amstrad was absolute shite 

[CheffoJeffo]

Accuracy for most point and shoot games where all you have to do is 'hit the monster' anywhere on it's body it works fine.  For games like Police Trainer or other target games that require more accuracy it works fine in the center area of the monitor, but towards the edges it starts to get erratic and you can see the cursor lag and how it starts to get further away from where you are pointing as you move away from the center of the screen. 

I've been playing House Of The Dead Overkill on the Wii. I have no experience with the Top Gun, but I think it's similar technology and exhibits the exact same symptoms of being accurate mid-screen and degrading wildly at the edges.

Its very frustrating to try to hit small targets like the health packs and gold items that appear on the edges of the screen. They include a circular reticule, and I don't think I could even play the game without it because the gun is so vague... The "gun" in this instance being a Wii remote stuck in a Nyko perfect shot, which resembles a pistol grip.
 

+1, with HOTD 2/3

One of the little Cheffo's is on an HOTD kick right now and I need to work on watching the reticule because I've been watching where I am aiming the gun only to find out that isn't where I am shooting.

[chrisnack]

I agree, sucks. 

I used the LCD topgun and just don't like the distance and it worked "decent".  I had to stand about 5' back on my 27" TV in my arcade.

I've been fighting/testing/blowing money on the Guncon2 type guns figuring that out lately.  I've used both Smog Guncon2 driver and the Wingun driver (finally found the dang thing) and had mixed results.  I have 2 official namco guns i was working with and i have 2 generic ones on the way ($22 shipped for both). 

From what i have found out thus far, I have tested both Smog's Guncon2 driver and the Wingun Driver.

With the official Namco guns:

Smog's Guncon2 driver:
Doesn't track, has rolling x issue
Buttons work in windows, doesn't track well at all (rolling-x issue)
Buttons work in Mame .129


Wingun:
Tracks perfect
Works great in windows, buttons work and register
Buttons don't work in Mame .129

From what i've read the buttons will work in Mame .104, but you can't use 2 lightguns, since it won't track them seperately, so gun2 will shoot where gun1 is sometimes and gun1 where gun2 is. I tired 104 a little bit and the buttons registered but i couldn't get the gun to track.

I've also used advancemame without much farther luck. 

I ordered some generic Yobo Guncon2 for $22 shipped that i'm hoping to test out this week.

I was considering the ACt Labs, but at $100/pop that just sucks.

I've used the LCD topgun that everyone raves about, but i personally don't like it.  YOu have to stand 2-3 times the distance between the infared bars, so on my 27" tv in my arcade, i had to stand about 4-6 ft back before the guns would work, but the light bars are just ugly, there is no way around that.

I like the TV based lightguns because no lightbar and they work great.  Just a matter of getting the right driver and mame version. Or something.

[Ginsu Victim]

Wingun:
Tracks perfect
Works great in windows, buttons work and register
Buttons don't work in Mame .129

Would using Xpadder resolve this issue?

[chrisnack]

Wingun:
Tracks perfect
Works great in windows, buttons work and register
Buttons don't work in Mame .129

Would using Xpadder resolve this issue?

I'm familiar with that application?

I'll give it a shot, the buttons work in Windows just fine, so i assume it's a mame issue.  Technically a light gun is a mouse in mame, but the x/y axis are different.   

[Ginsu Victim]

Xpadder allows you to map keyboard functions to a gamepad. If the gun's buttons show up as gamepad buttons, you should be able to map keyboard buttons to them, then remap MAME to support them.

[chrisnack]

I finally got both my official namco guncon2 guns working tonight.  Buttons and everything, took me alot of trial and error. I'm using the Wingun driver.

Gun 1
Tigger=mouse1
clip button=mouse2
Gun 2
Trigger=mouse3
clip button=mouse4

In mame 0.129
#
# CORE INPUT OPTIONS
#
coin_lockout              0
ctrlr                     
mouse                     1
joystick                  0
lightgun                  1
multikeyboard             0
multimouse                0
steadykey                 0
offscreen_reload          0
joystick_map              auto
joystick_deadzone         0.3
joystick_saturation       0.85

#
# CORE INPUT AUTOMATIC ENABLE OPTIONS
#
paddle_device             keyboard
adstick_device            lightgun
pedal_device              keyboard
dial_device               keyboard
trackball_device          mouse
lightgun_device           lightgun
positional_device         keyboard
mouse_device              mouse

dual_lightgun 1

works in area 51 and also works in terminator 2 (the adstick_device setting is for term2 or any other game that used positional guns)

Will be checking other games tonight.

[orion]

"I used the LCD topgun and just don't like the distance and it worked "decent".  I had to stand about 5' back on my 27" TV in my arcade."

I'm glad I saw this post, as I was considering an LCD topgun to use on my 52 inch set.... sounds like I would have to leave the room to use one of them with it  I have been using my Gyraton mouse to play light gun games with, I admit you can't really aim all that well with it (not for games like police trainer) but it works pretty well with games like Aliens the gun and HOTD. It sucks that there aren't many options out there for light gun games as those are my favorite to play.

[chrisnack]

Alot of people rave about the LCD topgun, but to each their own, i just didn't like it.

I've spent probably 8+ hours messing around with the namco guns to get things working correctly and all the different drivers...

I finally have it working in Mame, i haven't had a chance to play HOTD with the model2 emulator yet, i believe you need the "Troubleshooter" application to play the emulated version if you don't have a PC-based copy.

In all the lightgun based games i've played so far, everything is working.  I created a lightgun game list and have been going through those. 

Ocassional tracking issues, but works pretty darn well overall.  Very curious once i get my generic guncon2 guns later this week to see the difference.  I got my official namco guns for $50 for both, and i paid $22 for both generic ones.  Either way, better than $50/pop LCD topgun, or $100/pop Act Labs gun.

[ViciousXUSMC]

Lots of talk about the LCD Top Gun but what about the 2nd model the Top Gun II.

Is it not newer & better?

When the day comes that I build my cabinet with my odd design choice of using a projector to make a big screen on the wall, I think the TopGunII will work great since I will be a far distance back.

[chrisnack]

Lots of talk about the LCD Top Gun but what about the 2nd model the Top Gun II.

Is it not newer & better?

When the day comes that I build my cabinet with my odd design choice of using a projector to make a big screen on the wall, I think the TopGunII will work great since I will be a far distance back.

That's the one i've used.

[Francis2009]

Lightguns with wingun work fine in mame32  but they dont work in MAME.
 Also for the second gun, you must load the game with the mouse plugged, then unplug the mouse and plug the lightgun, I dont know why. If you dont do this the second pushbuttons dont register

[severdhed]

i was just about to place an order for two of the wireless RF Topguns, to use with my mame cabinet (19" LCD) as well as my playstation 2 on my DLP projector.  however upon talking with their tech support department, i discovered that they will not work at all with my 102" 16:9 screen, unless i place the IR bars in the middle of the picture.  i told them that standing back 10 to 15 feet wasn't really a problem, but they said that it just wouldnt work on a screen that large...which just totally sucks.  there are just no good lightgun options, unless you are using a CRT TV as your display.

i play some HOTD 2&3 on the wii, but it just isnt the same.

so for now, i've given up on having a good lightgun experience.  i hooked up my playstation 2 to the crappy 26" TV that only has composite video inputs and play time crisis 3 and vampire night on there.  it doesn't look the greatest, but the guncon 2 controllers work beautifully.   

i know there is the sonic gun system supposedly coming out someday, and Andy at Ultimarc, is doing lightgun market research..so i just hope something comes from that in the near future

[DJ_Izumi]

While I'm not in a HURRY, I'm keeping an eye out for a component input 27" CRT to do my light gun gaming on.  Perceptably, it'd be almost as good as RGB and Namco's guns DO work ideally on any CRT.

The real problem is firstly, light guns have always been a niche controller to start with.  On the PC most people don't even own a game pad or a driving wheel which leaves them most often with keyboard and mouse as the only gaming control.  Still, it's easier get a game pad or to hack up an arcade controller to a PC without real difficulty.  There have been almost zero games AND almost zero controllers built with a light gun in mind for the PC, so the stuff is basicly non-existant.  At least for console ports of gun games the hardware is generally uniform so it's easier to build controllers for them, only with the rise of the LCD and Plasma TV has this become a real issue agian.  But even on consoles, light gun games have been a niche.  I don't think a single light gun game has ever made a 'Best Seller' rerelease where they re-release and repackage the game at a cheaper price after selling a large ammount of units.

A lot of light gun games afterall are short on replay ability compared to other games.  The Point Blank series is more interesting, probably cause it's more akin to a party game.  Time Crisis on the other hand, while quite awesome is more like an 'attraction ride'; 30mins or so of gameplay along a rail where you get to play with a big cool gun.  That's cool for 30mins but it's short on replay value as a PC gamer would expect from an FPS game or something.

Granted, one of the reason I like arcade style gaming is to get the 'attraction' fun of it.

It'd be nice if they were to start porting old gun games to the consoles with guns now.  The Wii got that crap that was Target Terror for heck's sake.  Why not package a new port of Area 51 and release it on PlayStation Network with Guncon 2 and 3 support?  Or 'Point Blank HD'?

[Paul Olson]

I had a 65" TV, and my living room wasn't even wide enough to use the Topgun. I never got around to trying it on the MAME cab, so I sold it (sorry you aren't enjoying it Daywane ). I used to own the ActLabs gun as well, but it definitely wasn't great either (and it was a $40 gun before demand and lower production jacked up the price).

Unless Andy comes up with something, I think I am finished trying to add guns to my cab. I really want them, but I am tired of wasting time and money on products that just don't deliver.

[DJ_Izumi]

I think the weakness there is that cathode ray timing guns just ROCKED.  Cause as long as your gun was pointed at the TV it'd be able to see the electron gun when it fired down the barrel of the light gun.  The only weakness would be distance from the TV (And you gotta get pretty far for that to be an issue) and that the screens often needed to 'flash' to activate all the phosphors and ensure tracking when the trigger was pulled, cause it could ignore blacks and reds often.

[Shoegazer]

I had a 65" TV, and my living room wasn't even wide enough to use the Topgun. I never got around to trying it on the MAME cab, so I sold it (sorry you aren't enjoying it Daywane ). I used to own the ActLabs gun as well, but it definitely wasn't great either (and it was a $40 gun before demand and lower production jacked up the price).

Unless Andy comes up with something, I think I am finished trying to add guns to my cab. I really want them, but I am tired of wasting time and money on products that just don't deliver.

I'm right there with you.  I'm done tinkering around with this stuff when the net gain is close to zero, IMHO.  TopGuns suck no matter how you look at it (the TopGun II is NOT any better - it was almost precisely the same hw/fw/sw with the one difference being Vista compatibility - which was just an unprofessional attempt by the company to get more money from owners of the original TG.  They STILL won't deliver true x64 drivers which really disgusted me).  Foley's SGS has been talked up for what, half a year? as if it's right around the corner, but AFAIK it's no further along.  So yeah, stick a fork in me.

Anyway let's not forget the #1 reason lightguns aren't popular on PCs - how many people besides those in our niche do you suppose sit back farther than one foot from their PC?  That's not even arm's length.  I don't think many industry execs would have considered it wise to enter such a niche market.

[foleykoontz]

Anyway let's not forget the #1 reason lightguns aren't popular on PCs - how many people besides those in our niche do you suppose sit back farther than one foot from their PC?  That's not even arm's length.  I don't think many industry execs would have considered it wise to enter such a niche market.

That brings up a good point plus most PCs use 17" monitors compared to people here using 23" or so. Shooting on that small of a screen can't be that much fun can it?

[ark_ader]

I have two Topguns andthey work perfectly fine for me with the PC and the XBOX.

Maybe a bit more calibration and patience is in order to get the experience right.   

[DJ_Izumi]

Anyway let's not forget the #1 reason lightguns aren't popular on PCs - how many people besides those in our niche do you suppose sit back farther than one foot from their PC?  That's not even arm's length.  I don't think many industry execs would have considered it wise to enter such a niche market.

There's also the fact that ANY light gun game is an arcade port.  Direct arcade ports don't even go far on the PC.  It's not like FPS games would really benifit from light gun control.  Have you tried the Capcom 'Gun Survivor' series on PS2 where you use the D-pad on the Guncon to move like an FPS game but can shoot the enemies on screen?  It's not as fun as you'd think. :X

Besides, my understanding is that the Topguns are poorly constructed and are likely to fail under heavy use.

[ahofle]

I guess unless your a nub that wants to drag the front of the gun across your monitor, scratching it up.  Hell, even in the arcades I stood a good 4 or so feet away.  I don't understand the complaints about the distance issue at all. 

You are obviously referring to a more recent showcase style cabinet in the 'arcades'.  "Normal" standup arcade cabinets had the gun 1-2 feet max from the screen, period.
You couldn't get 4 feet from Duck Hunt unless you cut the gun cable:


The only solution that I've seen that has real potential is the sonic gun technology.  Works with any size screen, any type of screen, any distance, doesn't freak out with background lighting, etc.  I only hope it eventually makes it to the consumer market.

[TheShanMan]

I think we're all drooling over the sonic gun concept. Just hope it doesn't turn into the next star wars yoke project! Wish there was some news on the sonic gun!