usb experts - could use some help

[tony.silveira]

hi all,

i'm in the final stages of finishing my cab (laminate for the panel is on order) but there is some tweaking that i still need to do and i was hoping for some usb experts to help me out.

per another post of mine and the suggestion given, i have on order a 7 port industrial strength usb hub.  i hope this solves a bunch of my problems but would still love some feedback.

i'm looking for suggestions on hubs, usb pci cards, cables, usb extenders, whatever i may need to get rock solid usb connectivity as i always seem to have something dropping out.  here is what i currently have or will have in my cab that is usb:

1. ultimarc mini-pac with trackball support
2. ultimarc mini-pac (sticks and buttons only, not yet added)
3. tornado spinner
4. led-wiz 32 (power drawn from pc power supply)
5. led-wiz 32 (power drawn from pc power supply, not yet added)
6. usb 3' extension to surface mount box
7. usb 3' extension to surface mount box

these first 7 components are plugged into a powered usb hub.  this isnt just some cheap piece either, it cost me like $50 and is name brand.  the industrial hub will replace this one.

here are other components jacked in:

a. external HD with it's own power supply
b. act-labs vga arcade gun
c. vga over cat-5 cable
d. usb 3' extension to back of machine (for my keyboard)
e. usb 3' extension to back of machine (for downstairs, see below*)
f. groovy games spinner (not yet added)
g. groovy games spinner (not yet added)

here are the ports on the pc itself and whats plugged into what:

4 powered ports on the back of the pc.  of these four, i only have b and c above plugged in.  i have had issues with the onboard ports so i only use two of them.

2 unpowered ports on the front of the box, these are unused.

4 port pci-x card.  this card has the hub that drives 1-7, a, d and e.

i hope the new usb hub fixes the weirdness with 1-7 above.  my newest issue is with e, the extension to the back of the box.  from this extension, i run a usb cable downstairs so i can control my box with a 360 controller on my projector (see attached pic).

on the downstairs end of this cable, i have a 4 port powered hub with a 360 controller, keyboard and mouse.  maybe its a cheap hub but sometimes one or all of the attached components will stop working.  right now, i am typing this downstairs and my 360 controller is flashing all four green lights.  a few minutes ago, it was flashing only player one green light.  about an hour ago, everything downstairs stopped working and i had to reboot to get back connectivity to this hub.

the cable that feeds downstairs is a 16' long usb extender cable.  it's supposed to be able to boost and extend the usb limit of 15'.  it says you can daisy chain up to 80' total so my 16' cable is way below that limit.  also, if i only have one of the components plugged directly into this extension, it works great, which leads me to believe the hub isnt playing nice with the extender (i have tried 3 different powered hubs and they all drop some connection eventually).

my apologies for the long post but i wanted to get as much info as i could in case anyone has any advice for me.

thanks all

[AndyWarne]

Extender cables are not "allowed" in the USB specs so this would be the prime suspect. Having said that, there are some extenders available which are simply a one-port hub. They are powered devices. If the extender you are using is a powered device then it stands a chance of working. If not, then it wont work properly if daisy-chained as the voltage drop will eventually be too great down the wire.
16 feet is a long way though and way longer than the USB standard maximum even when powered. I think some of the claims made for these extenders might be false as you have seen.

Andy

[SavannahLion]

on the downstairs end of this cable, i have a 4 port powered hub with a 360 controller, keyboard and mouse.  maybe its a cheap hub but sometimes one or all of the attached components will stop working.  right now, i am typing this downstairs and my 360 controller is flashing all four green lights.  a few minutes ago, it was flashing only player one green light.  about an hour ago, everything downstairs stopped working and i had to reboot to get back connectivity to this hub.

the cable that feeds downstairs is a 16' long usb extender cable.  it's supposed to be able to boost and extend the usb limit of 15'.  it says you can daisy chain up to 80' total so my 16' cable is way below that limit.  also, if i only have one of the components plugged directly into this extension, it works great, which leads me to believe the hub isnt playing nice with the extender (i have tried 3 different powered hubs and they all drop some connection eventually).

Have you considered redesiging this portion of your cab? This kind of setup can be better served with more suitable communication methods. Gut anything USB that goes beyond 15' and install ethernet cabling in it's place. Ethernet is better suited for longer distances. Switching to Ethernet may restrict your USB options but opens up a whole range of well established and well tested hardware options to achieve your goals. It also broadens your flexibility, especially if you install wireless cababilities.

[tony.silveira]

thanks andy.  the cable i have has no power and i was afraid that might be the problem.

have you tried and usb over cat-5 products?  the one i have that runs vga and stereo audio to downstairs works a charm so i think i might try this product:

http://www.smartvm.com/USB-EXTENDER-VIA-CAT-5-EXTENDS-4-USB-DEVICES-P7252.htm

any thoughts?

[drventure]

I see Andy commented as well. He helped me through an nasty USB bind I was having myself.

The main thing for me was the pay REALLY close attention to the Powersupply supplied with your hubs.

I ended up needing 3 hubs in my control panel because of the number of USB devices.

I was having a hell of a time getting things to come up consistently, until, I believe, it was andy that mentioned the max current loads for each hub and port.

Once I realized that, I started looking at the power supplies that came with each hub and quickly realized that, even though you have a 7 port hub, the PS that powers it might only supply enough juice for 3 ports at max power, plug in anything else and you start having problems.

I do know that the Kensington 7 port Hub I found had a PS that was powerful enough to drive all seven ports at max. With it, I had no more issues.

[tony.silveira]

Have you considered redesiging this portion of your cab? This kind of setup can be better served with more suitable communication methods. Gut anything USB that goes beyond 15' and install ethernet cabling in it's place. Ethernet is better suited for longer distances. Switching to Ethernet may restrict your USB options but opens up a whole range of well established and well tested hardware options to achieve your goals. It also broadens your flexibility, especially if you install wireless cababilities.
[/quote]

would you mean the usb over cat-5 per my other post?  all i need downstairs is my 360 controller, keyboard and mouse.

also, for the other poster who mentioned having enough power, i believe i read on another post that the power supply should have .5V per port on the hub, is that correct (that was from memory)?

thank you all for the input!

[MonMotha]

There are commercial solutions for running USB long distances using CAT5 as the media, rather than standard USB cables.  The CAT5 run is non-standard (different implmentations may not even be compatible) and cannot be plugged directly in to a USB device, but it can go much longer distances than the USB standard allows.  Basically, you need a translator on each end.  They tend to come bundled in packs with an upstream and downstream end.

Performance varies, but I've had better luck with these USB over CAT5 solutions than so-called "powered extenders".

Regarding power, a full draw on a port is 500mA (0.5A) at 5V.  So your wall-wart for the hub should be rated at 0.5A*<number of ports> in order to allow each port to draw the maximum.  Make sure you use the brick that comes with the hub (and therefore buy a hub with a correctly rated brick) as the hub may assume it has a brick with certain ratings when making power decisions.

[tony.silveira]

thanks for the info monmotha.

i just checked my 4 port hub downstairs and it's rated at 2.2a so it should be all right.

next step fo me is to replace that extender and get a usb over cat-5 solution as you mentioned (with power at the receiving end).

in a previous post i pointed to one that has a 4 port hub at the receiving end with a power supply, i think i'll give that one a go.

thank you all for being a sanity check for me

[tony.silveira]

hi all,

i'm posting my results just in case anyone else wants the info.

i installed the usb over cat-5 any the thing woks like a charm!  it has a 4 port usb at the receiving end which helps tremendously.

i took it one step further and built an end table downstairs.  in the end table, i installed a belkin 4 port hub.  it's the kind you'll see in office conference room tables.  drill a 2" hole in your surface, install in the hole and it's flush with the surface.

i appreciate the feedback from you all and hope this might help someone else.

tony

[Turnarcades]

This is alot of power you have being drawn from the PC. I would be very dubious about having so much sucking on that teat in case I fry my PC or start a fire.

[Zebidee]

If the hub is powered he should be OK.  It will be grounded to the local PS as well.

One thing to remember is that all that USB stuff still has just two teenie-weenie wires to shove all that data (maybe two more if the cat-5 USB solution allows it), so keep the peripherals as simple as possible (eg mouse, keyboard ...) and the number managable. USB standard technically allows 127 devices on one USB port, but they all have to share the same limited bandwidth.