Analog PC Flightstick VS Hacked arcade Flightstick

[GamingGreg]

I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of using a couple of standard PC joysticks (flight stick style) vs using a couple of hacked flightsticks (arcade base with flightstick handle top see http://www.oscarcontrols.com/projects/triggerstick.shtml).  

I want to put two flight sticks on my control panel to be used for tank and flight combat type games. However I'm debating whether to hack two arcade joysticks or to mount two cheap but durable analog PC joysticks. (BTW, this guy just simply mounted a PC joystick in his panel http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade/control_panel2.shtml)

First of all, can MAME handle two standard analog PC joystick inputs (two axis two buttons or better)? or just one?

Second, How well does a hacked PC flight stick hold up?  Will the handle break off soon?  (I suppose some of this depends on the quality of the handle, length of the shaft, and quality of the hack job itself)

A few other points that I thought of are:

1) PC Joysticks are usually built to lower standards (less durable) than arcade joysticks, but some are still pretty durable
2) Joysticks on a home arcade wouldn't get quite the same amount of abuse.  (At least in most cases)
3) Analog joysticks would also work with other non-MAME games.

Lastly, I could use some suggestions on some cheap but durable joysticks with ambidextrous handles (since one will be in my left hand).  I noticed that a couple people have used the Interact Raider Pro sticks (one used just the handle and the other the full joystick).  Is this one a good choice?

How about your thoughts?  

[GamingGreg]

One other thing.  Anyone know the maximum number of buttons on a flightstick used in an arcade game?

[GamingGreg]

I guess I could of found some of my answers by doing a better search of the board. (Yes, I'm answering my own post )

This thread discuss the analog vs digital thing. http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8247;start=msg60132  I guess the short answer here is that it depends on the game. Analog covers them all, but in some games it doesn't work well.


And as fas as supporting multiple joysticks, this is from the MAME FAQ:
"Multiple joysticks are supported just fine, though", however it also mentions later that "there can be only one analog joystick device per MAME analog input port, but many digital.", but I think this refering to splitting up axes from different joystick to be used as one control or vice-versa. "Fortunately, there is a project called Analog+ that aims to remove these limitations".


So it appears that if I want to use two analog joysticks to play tank games like battlezone, I'd probably need to use the Analog+ version of MAME.

Another point I thought of is that a hacked joystick would be easier to mount. However I'm still concerned that a hack like this will easily break.

Again any recommendations on cheap but durable ambidextrous joysticks?

[u_rebelscum]

I guess I could of found some of my answers by doing a better search of the board. (Yes, I'm answering my own post )

It's a good practice to do so if you find some answers to your questions; then other people get to share in the knowledge.

This thread discuss the analog vs digital thing.  thread  I guess the short answer here is that it depends on the game. Analog covers them all, but in some games it doesn't work well.

I'd say analog covers it all, but  on digital games it's a little hard to tell what angle mame will treat as the On/Off spot.  And with digital arcade sticks, you know that On/Off angle.

And as fas as supporting multiple joysticks, this is from the MAME FAQ:
"Multiple joysticks are supported just fine, though", however it also mentions later that "there can be only one analog joystick device per MAME analog input port, but many digital.", but I think this refering to splitting up axes from different joystick to be used as one control or vice-versa. "Fortunately, there is a project called Analog+ that aims to remove these limitations".

So it appears that if I want to use two analog joysticks to play tank games like battlezone, I'd probably need to use the Analog+ version of MAME.

Um, not quite.  Mame has updated a little since then, and has accepted most of the Analog+ joystick code.  However, I can't word the FAQ much better than it already is.

First: there are different analog/digital points to address: device type, game type, and mame type.

(mame type) In mame, there are only four analog axes per player (and only two, X & Y, are really used).  Mame has a limit of four players, thus a max of 16 mame type analog axes.  For each axis, mame will treat only one input as analog (the first joystick axis, a device type, mapped to that input); all other inputs mapped to that axis will be seen as digital inputs.  Mame's digital joystick inputs doesn't have the limit of 4 axes per player.

(device type) Official Mame can see 4 joystick devices.  DirectX has a limit of 8 axes per device; mame can see all of these axes.  (The gameport has a limit of 4 analog axes per port, unless the device uses a driver and non-gameport standard signaling.)  So mame can see up to 32 axes.  Any number of these axes could be digital, and the remaining analog.  Mame can use any one of those analog axes to control any of mame's 16 analog axes, and/or the more numerous digital axes.

(game type) The game may or may not have analog inputs.  Some games can have more than mame's max analog axes per player, such as hard drivin' (5).  Mame's game drivers cheat by using mame's player 2 and player 3 analog axes to fill in the needed axes for the game's single player.

Okay, examples:
Assault: original game had 2 joystick, for 4 digital axes.  Both the mame thpe and the game type are digital, so you can use 2 analog (device type) joysticks for the left and right game sticks no problem.

Spy Hunter: original game had analog wheel and analog pedal = 2 analog axes.  Usually you want to play with the wheel & pedal, but sometimes you want to use a joystick when you're too lazy to pull out the wheel&pedal.  If you mapped the joystick and the wheel & pedal set to the game's analog inputs, mame will treat only one of the devices per axis as an analog input.

See, I try to do a short explaination and I write a book.  If anyone can do a better job of explaining this, it would be great to submit it to update the FAQ.

Short: as far as analog joysticks, Mame and MameAnalog+ are pretty much the same, and neither have the limit you seem to worry about here.  The only advantage Analog+ has with joysticks ATM is mame has a limit of 4 joystick devices, Analog+'s limit is 8 devices.

[GamingGreg]

Thanks for that clarification.  If I understand you correctly with the Spy Hunter example, you couldn't use JOY1 X-axis for the wheel AND use JOY1 Y-axis for the pedal, as these are different devices to the game.  However, something like JOY1 X-axis for the wheel AND JOY2 X-axis for the pedal would work.  I hope that's correct.

I also suppose that most people using a steering wheel and pedals on their cabinet are also using MAME Analog+ for this very reason.  It would be nice if those remaining features of Analog+ finally make it into the official MAME builds.  That way everyone would "be on the same page".  Sounds like it may eventually happen.

Thanks again u_rebelscum for your help and all your great work on Analog+!


On a different note, I've been working on the layout of my control panel, and I think I'll probably use two hacked joysticks (digital base with flight stick handle) instead of two analog PC joysticks.  Then when I play a game that needs an analog joystick (there aren't many from what I understand), I'll bring out an analog PC flight stick with some sort of removable mount on it and plug it into a USB port mounted in the front of the cabinet.  I'm thinking of a mount similar to what Frostillicus described in this thread here. http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8961

[u_rebelscum]

Thanks for that clarification.  If I understand you correctly with the Spy Hunter example, you couldn't use JOY1 X-axis for the wheel AND use JOY1 Y-axis for the pedal, as these are different devices to the game.  However, something like JOY1 X-axis for the wheel AND JOY2 X-axis for the pedal would work.  I hope that's correct.

Um, not quite.  
You can use JOY1 X-axis for the wheel and JOY1 Y-axis for the pedel; for both the game sees the true analog input from the devices.
You can use JOY1 X-axis for the wheel and JOY2 X-axis for the pedel; for both the game sees the true analog input from the devices.
You can use JOY1 X-axis for the wheel and JOY1 X-axis for the pedel; for both the game sees the true analog input from the devices.  Although controling the car would be hard.

You should not use JOY1 X-axis and JOY1 Y-axis (and JOY2 X-axis) for the wheel; mame will only see one of the two (or three) inputs as analog while the other (two) are seen as digital.

When I say "analog device", I mean the whole flightstick device, or the whole gamepad object, or the whole wheel + pedals set, including all of the 2 to 8 analog axes.

I also suppose that most people using a steering wheel and pedals on their cabinet are also using MAME Analog+ for this very reason.  It would be nice if those remaining features of Analog+ finally make it into the official MAME builds.  That way everyone would "be on the same page".  Sounds like it may eventually happen.

Both mame and Analog+ are "on the same page" as far as handling analog inputs.  Mame was very quick on accepting the analog input changes I submitted (took one version).

Analog+'s "strengths" currently are mostly in mouse and lightgun inputs, plus the max 8 joystick devices vs mame's 4.

Thanks again u_rebelscum for your help and all your great work on Analog+!

You're welcome.

On a different note, I've been working on the layout of my control panel, and I think I'll probably use two hacked joysticks (digital base with flight stick handle) instead of two analog PC joysticks.  Then when I play a game that needs an analog joystick (there aren't many from what I understand), I'll bring out an analog PC flight stick with some sort of removable mount on it and plug it into a USB port mounted in the front of the cabinet.  I'm thinking of a mount similar to what Frostillicus described in this thread here. http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8961

I like this idea better than the two analog sticks; it's better for most games.