Scanline effects, LCDs, and a sort of recant

[Ummon]

Recently, I got the chance to try Mame on a later model laptop. I was surprised at the image quality of the graphics. Even more, I was surprised at the quality of the effects presentations of both old and new Mame. Though in older Mame, there was still some slight lack of authenticity (using 75%, 50%, and 25% scanlines) in vertical scrolling games - games run horizontally, hence, horizontal scanlines - the overall look was pretty good. Further, in new Mame - using 75x2 - the look was pretty good, too. I didn't have any special files on hand - like Sailor Sat's triad3sl, or Althor's Scanrez2 (in particular, rotated, to provide horizontal features) - but it seems the high brightness of LCDs is much suited to Mame effects rendering.

I've also been playing around with current Mame and Scanrez2, as well as Sailor Sat's triadsl, on my arcade monitor, with the following results. (Incidentally, they don't look good embedded. Also, for accuracy, remember to click inside the image. And, Mame apparently takes snaps from the raw output. These images were system snaps.)


The first one is Scanrez2. It's pretty nice, particularly with the contrast set to 1.60 to bring out the color and all.

The second is the triadsl, same contrast level. A little dingy.

[Jack Burton]

In the second pic you can kind of get a feeling of a little bit of mis-convergence.  You know, that kind of shimmer in the word "GYRUSS"

Also, "Please Deposit Coin and Try this game", so polite lol.

[Turnarcades]

I am a MASSIVE arcade fan and accept there will never be a substitute for playing the authentic hardware as intended like we did back in the day. However, I've never felt this need as a lot of people do to bring back those visual effects that I consider to be quite vile like scanlines etc, particularly when the MAME effects tend to use extra processing power to pull them off.

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

[kagaden]

Where are you downloading your mame scanlines? I made some of my own which I think are perfect for SFIII:3rd Strike and mame but just for reference sake.

[Ginsu Victim]

I made some of my own which I think are perfect for SFIII:3rd Strike and mame

Post them!

[TOK]

The second actually looks more authentic to me. Games in the wild  never seemed to look as pretty as the ones in our basements. Dingy fits. 

[kagaden]

I made some of my own which I think are perfect for SFIII:3rd Strike and mame

Post them!

Here ya go. It's based off of scanlines75x4 with an additional lighter scanline above and below to make it look more 3 dimensional. Probably not good for all games but I like it on my SFIII:3S

The scanline I've made here is really subtle. I agree that Mame default scanlines are super over the top and hard to look at but I think there's a way to get them right.

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

I just rotated Althor's scanrez2 and I really like that. Also bumped the contrast up as suggested. So far, so good.

[Loafmeister]

I am a MASSIVE arcade fan and accept there will never be a substitute for playing the authentic hardware as intended like we did back in the day. However, I've never felt this need as a lot of people do to bring back those visual effects that I consider to be quite vile like scanlines etc, particularly when the MAME effects tend to use extra processing power to pull them off.

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

Agreed. Scanlines was never something the devs intended, it was something they had to live it. Still, I can appreciate some want that "arcade" feel. To that, I'd say "can I come over and burn a cig on your CP?"

[TOK]

I do agree that if I was that obsessed with scan lines, I'd just use an arcade monitor. Have 3 MAME cabs and none of them do, and thats fine. I'm more into playing the games. I do have a couple dedicated machines with arcade monitors, and there is something to be said about playing it on the old hardware. I've had like 3 games that are in MAME, and the original hardware plays slightly different.

Slower, actually. The games are harder in MAME.

[retrometro]

These aren't scanline templates.  Just a series of scaled vs native rez using sailorsat's soft15khz

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKLq-LMgjM[/youtube]

[RandyT]

If anyone has seen any of my posts regarding LCDs, where I recommend getting the highest resolution panel possible (as long as you get enough video card to drive it), this is why.  As higher resolution becomes available, it will be possible to more closely simulate the raster look on digital displays.  Something that absolutely cannot be done decently on a low-res panel. 

Also, to get the best effect from these overlays, one would need to design different patterns for specific input and output resolution pairs.  Some of the effects are quite good, but I think they have only begun to scratch the surface of what will ultimately be possible.

RandyT

[Ummon]

The second actually looks more authentic to me. Games in the wild  never seemed to look as pretty as the ones in our basements. Dingy fits. 

You know, I've seen others here say this, and the only thing I can think of is that you all played some ---smurfy--- games in the day. All the places I went to had them working like tops! Even still, the ones I saw at the SuperAuctions in Phx last year that weren't looking their best looked at least as good as the first image.

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

I still have at least close to 20/20 vision. Plus, as RayB has mentioned a few times, the convergence/focus of the monitor can play a factor in how pronounced the scanlines blank lines are, but there is still something about the reality such a display shows versus a PC CRT or LCD - almost real-looking vs caricatures - though LCDs (in conjunction with how mame is now displaying games, which I've even noticed on my arcade multisync when running default current mame) seem to be making some advance.

Also, to get the best effect from these overlays, one would need to design different patterns for specific input and output resolution pairs.  Some of the effects are quite good, but I think they have only begun to scratch the surface of what will ultimately be possible.

RandyT

That's what I've been thinking.

I am a MASSIVE arcade fan and accept there will never be a substitute for playing the authentic hardware as intended like we did back in the day. However, I've never felt this need as a lot of people do to bring back those visual effects that I consider to be quite vile like scanlines etc, particularly when the MAME effects tend to use extra processing power to pull them off.

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

Agreed. Scanlines was never something the devs intended, it was something they had to live it. Still, I can appreciate some want that "arcade" feel. To that, I'd say "can I come over and burn a cig on your CP?"

Well, not only is the dimensionality I mentioned above a factor, but the 'texture' of the CRT mask, a circumstance similar to types of paper, or fabrics, or stitchings....

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

I just rotated Althor's scanrez2 and I really like that. Also bumped the contrast up as suggested. So far, so good.

Coolness.

[Turnarcades]

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

I still have at least close to 20/20 vision. Plus, as RayB has mentioned a few times, the convergence/focus of the monitor can play a factor in how pronounced the scanlines blank lines are, but there is still something about the reality such a display shows versus a PC CRT or LCD - almost real-looking vs caricatures - though LCDs (in conjunction with how mame is now displaying games, which I've even noticed on my arcade multisync when running default current mame) seem to be making some advance.

Also, to get the best effect from these overlays, one would need to design different patterns for specific input and output resolution pairs.  Some of the effects are quite good, but I think they have only begun to scratch the surface of what will ultimately be possible.

RandyT

That's what I've been thinking.

I am a MASSIVE arcade fan and accept there will never be a substitute for playing the authentic hardware as intended like we did back in the day. However, I've never felt this need as a lot of people do to bring back those visual effects that I consider to be quite vile like scanlines etc, particularly when the MAME effects tend to use extra processing power to pull them off.

Maybe it's just me and the fact my eyes always kind of sucked, but I think I much prefer the clearer image that PC's can provide. At most I use interpolation or similar to soften the edges a little on most platforms besides MAME, but the black interruptions of scanlines and speckles from other effects hurt my eyes over time.

Agreed. Scanlines was never something the devs intended, it was something they had to live it. Still, I can appreciate some want that "arcade" feel. To that, I'd say "can I come over and burn a cig on your CP?"

Well, not only is the dimensionality I mentioned above a factor, but the 'texture' of the CRT mask, a circumstance similar to types of paper, or fabrics, or stitchings....

  Sorry dudes, I'm never going to get my head around the technical side of all this, or recognise the apparent importance visually some of you need to have. Guess I'm getting old... 

I'll stick with what I know, but if you guys have found something that works well for you then fair play and enjoy these developments.

[kagaden]

Eventually, once CRT's die out and there are few left I believe we'll get better focused development on emulating "the look". At that point, it'll be tough (or expensive) for new players into the arcade hobby to not go with some newer form of visual technology. Those with CRTs currently would do well to understand how to fix their own displays in the long term.

Currently, I prefer LCD over CRTs already due to their availability, profile, and weight. I figure I might as well adopt it already.

Edit: I'd like to ask again if anyone has a website that hosts different types of scanlines? I'd love to see some others. 

[Blanka]

If you look at the video with original resolution vs. overlays, and you look at the first on a high-res LCD, then you see what COULD be possible on an LCD. That quality is amazing.
Problem is that no-one ever did the overlaying right. The problems with the overlays you see today are:
- The overlay scanlines do not match the game scanlines. It is a simple 4x4 pixel pattern put over a blurred upscaling of the image.
- Overlays dim parts of the image to black to give the idea of scanlines. Well it should be more like a linear raster in printing. If the brightness is high, the lines should get wider and finally stick together, if it is dark, they should look loose.

So to do it right, it involves a three-stage rocket:
- Render the frame at original resolution
- Upscale it 5 times blocky (1200x1600, a common LCD resolution is 5 times 240x320, a common arcade resolution)
- Apply a 5x5 pixel tridot rendering, and let the bright pixels glow a little onto the surrounding pixels. Do this in a way that the AVERAGE colour of ALL 25 pixels is the SAME as in the blocky upscaling (it's a hard calculation, but it can be done)
- Scale the result down to the resoltion of the screen

It takes some OpenGL/OpenCL power, but it is no problem for any 6600GT/X1300+ videocard.

[Blanka]

Agreed. Scanlines was never something the devs intended, it was something they had to live it.

Today you have Arcade VGA and Bubalicious CRT tubes
Tomorrow we vacuum-form our 300dpi OLED foils on our dead tubes.
The Mame DEV's should start worrying about scanlines. If they want to be accurate, scanlines are going to be a part of that. Even worse: some people should document every pixel characteristic of monitors used in the original cabs, and make specific scaling textures for that.

[Ummon]

Sounds good, Blanka. I think they're thinking about it. It's just not a hot topic. Aaron is thinking about everything, I think. However, check out the current Kangaroo, and pay special attention to the 'trees' and 'foliage'. There are what appear to be natural scanlines at stock settings, but no (apparent) dimness. Aaron said that was due to increasing the accuracy of the hardware emulation. HMM.

[ivwshane]

I stopped by an arcade today (well it had arcade games) and I compared the different monitors to see how close my cabs display came to emulating them. I was pretty surprised to see any difference but even more surprised that the displays didn't look anything like I remembered. So I fired up mame32 to see how the built in affects compared to the real thing.

These three came the closest to looking the most accurate when viewed on an LCD.

The first one looks the closest and the last isn't too bad either.

For some reason I can't upload them (there really isn't much to see anyway).

Scanrez1_Althor.png
Scanrez2_Althor.png
Shadowmask_Twisty.png

These come with mame32 in the artwork folder.

[Ginsu Victim]

I recommend Ummon's idea of rotating Scanrez2_Althor. It looks MUCH better.

[Ummon]

I stopped by an arcade today (well it had arcade games) and I compared the different monitors to see how close my cabs display came to emulating them. I was pretty surprised to see any difference but even more surprised that the displays didn't look anything like I remembered. So I fired up mame32 to see how the built in affects compared to the real thing.

These three came the closest to looking the most accurate when viewed on an LCD.

The first one looks the closest and the last isn't too bad either.

For some reason I can't upload them (there really isn't much to see anyway).

Scanrez1_Althor.png
Scanrez2_Althor.png
Shadowmask_Twisty.png

These come with mame32 in the artwork folder.

What games did you see, and which effect corresonds to which?