Sidewinder Dual Strike Hack--potential problem

[jukingeo]

Hello all,

I was just recently going over my options for a game controller hack and the contenders where the PS2 controller and the MS Sidewinder Dual Strike.  Both feature analog/digital inputs.

My goal was to create a cabinet with an interchangeable panel option.  The most controls I figured I would have are two joysticks 8/4 way 6 playing buttons, Player 1 & 2 start and coin up.  I wanted to do this on ONE usb controller hack.  Once again it seemed that either the PS2 controller or Dual Strike would fit the bill.

If you been following my posts I made here, I did an elaborate detail on mapping out the Playstation 2 controller in both analog and digital modes.   I figured the number of mappable inputs are 14 and 24 respectively.

I found that the 14 inputs of the PS2 digital mode to be restricting and would prefer to keep it in the analog mode.  However, the PS2 controller has an irritating habit of reverting always to the digital mode on power up.  So I really couldn't have this.  But the deal killer for the PS2 controller was prior reading of unsuccessful hacks of the analog controls.

So with that information I decided to check out the Sidewinder Dual Strike controller.   This controller has one fixed mode, so there is no switching to worry about.  I would have 9 digital buttons (one less as compared to the PS2 controller and the Dpad for digital inputs and I would have two axis of analog control (two less as compared to the PS2 controller).   However, I figured out that if I gave myself a "choice" of wiring the  analog controls as digital then I would actually end up with more mappable inputs than the PS2 controller.   What more is that when I change control panels, I could have a choice in how to wire up the analog controls.

Since it has been proven that the analog hacks are successful, this seemed like the way to go (without having to resort to using TWO controllers).  I would JUST fit it in with my initial control panel design (analog inputs converted to digital).

Since I have a couple Dual Strike controllers already, I proceed with the hack last night.   I took apart the controller and examined the circuit board for common connections and how the push-buttons are wired in.

Much to my dismay I made a rather startling discovery.  It appears that the Dual Strike controller is using a key matrix rather than a direct hookup.   The initial giveaway was the presence of many dual diode blocks on the PCB.  This discovery has me worried about ghosting and blocking (masking).

Given the original design of the Dual Strike I can see how ghosting/blocking wouldn't be too much of an issue.   The dual strike is meant to be operated only by four fingers with two fingers on a trigger button and the thumbs controlling the rest of the game pad.  So needless to say, there are really only one or two places that thumb could be (for each hand).    But an arcade controller hack is way different.

Since my design is a two joystick 6 button panel there will be times two players will be using it and that means all the joystick axises and as many as all six buttons could be pressed at once.

So this is my question:

Has anyone done a full controller panel using a full hack of the Sidewinder Dual Strike controller?  If so, was it successful and were there any problems of ghosting or blocking?

Thank You,

Geo

[Neverending Project]

You will need to add diodes to mask some of the button switches. If you check the wiki, there is some information about pinouts and which buttons are masked. I know you can get 4, possibly 5 or 6 discreet buttons without any additional masking. But check the wiki on the Dual Strike hack for more info.

[jukingeo]

You will need to add diodes to mask some of the button switches. If you check the wiki, there is some information about pinouts and which buttons are masked. I know you can get 4, possibly 5 or 6 discreet buttons without any additional masking. But check the wiki on the Dual Strike hack for more info.

Hello,

Thanx for the info, but if this is the Dual Strike Wiki you were referring to;

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Dual_Strike_Hack

That Wiki needs some updating.  The first link is dead, the second one doesn't give any information on diodes, the third references the first link, and the last link DID mention the diodes, but there were no diagrams of where to put them or anything.

Are there other sources I can look into?

Perhaps I should look into a better controller hack (perhaps a flight stick, which usually has a good assortment of analog controls) that doesn't have the matrix problem.

Thanx

Geo

[Havok]

jukingeo - this is a new age, where friends don't let friends hack controllers. Do yourself a favor, buy an encoder. One that has more inputs, more possibilities and no ghosting. Need analog and digital, plus buttons? Try this:

http://www.u-hid.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=4

Now stop looking at both those controllers, and get something that will be 100 times better!

[jukingeo]

jukingeo - this is a new age, where friends don't let friends hack controllers. Do yourself a favor, buy an encoder. One that has more inputs, more possibilities and no ghosting. Need analog and digital, plus buttons? Try this:
Now stop looking at both those controllers, and get something that will be 100 times better!

Oh, I am very well aware of the existence of controller interfaces all the way back from when Hagstrom introduced the KE-24.   Do I want to use something like this? Would I love something like the U-Hid controller?   Of course I do.  However, these controllers come with a substantial price tag attached to them of around $80.   This is a price tag of which I am sorry to say I cannot afford right now.

You are correct in saying that this is "new age".  It is a new age of a poor economy in the US and many jobs are affected by it, including mine.  While I will spare everyone from the gory details of living in lean times, I can pretty much say that I cannot afford to spend $50 to $100 (+ shipping) on a dedicated interface.     

I CAN afford to buy an old gamepad for $6 to $12 and have the electronic know how to make the best of that and hack it. 

But in all fairness as to what you are getting at, I DID just learn about this unit tonight:

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_81&products_id=234

It sells for $25.95 and that does put it in a "doable" price range.  I might go with this for my general gaming buttons, but since it doesn't handle analog controls, I may still use the Dual Strike for that purpos.  I am still doing research on it though.

Geo

[Havok]

You will be nothing but disappointed in the end with a controller hack. Especially if you plan on simultaneous two player control use. Sorry to hear about your situation, hope it improves. However, in the end you will want to replace that hack with a real solution.

However, to make the most of your situation, I would go with the GPWiz and dual strike hack - that will give you the best of both worlds at a reasonable price...

[jukingeo]

You will be nothing but disappointed in the end with a controller hack. Especially if you plan on simultaneous two player control use. Sorry to hear about your situation, hope it improves. However, in the end you will want to replace that hack with a real solution.

However, to make the most of your situation, I would go with the GPWiz and dual strike hack - that will give you the best of both worlds at a reasonable price...

I have done many controller hacks before and was satisfied with them.  I mostly used PS1 and Gravis Gamepad hacks.  I know these use direct connections because one side of the switches grounds out.  That was the big difference with the Dual Strike, which is almost entirely on a matrix.

As of now I do intend to use the Dual Strike anyway, but I am mostly thinking about it for analog use and for "service" buttons.   I probably will use a Gravis Gamepad hack for the main buttons.

However, I am going to be smart about the design and put the hacks on a board with terminal strips, kind of like this (first picture down):

http://www.ourvictorianhouse.com/CraigsArcade/Roswell%2088201/Roswell.html

In this manner, the hack can easily be removed and a "real" controller put in it's place.

Edit 12-14-08:

Ok, after much research and looking around for decent gamepads to hack, I came to the conclusion that being that I need so many inputs for my project (14 not including service or Start 1&2, coin up buttons).   I decided that for $25.95 the KeyWiz40 ECO is the best way to go for my general gaming buttons, especially since I intend to have swappable panels.

I still think the Dual Strike is a good hack, but for single player and/or low button count controllers (bartop cabinets). 

Learing  that this is a controller that uses a matrix, I do fear that there is a high probability of ghosting/blocking, as this pad really is never intended to have more than 4 buttons pressed at one time, (outside of the analog controls).

While a PS2 (or 1) controller hack does seem favorable and would handle my 14 inputs, it would be maxed out and I would need a second controller to handle the service buttons.   Then there will be the issue if using more than one USB connection for the purposes of game controllers would result in "swapping". 

So with that in mind, even though two PS2 (or Gravis gamepads) would be cheaper, it would seem that one KeyWiz40Eco would be a FAR better solution for a few bucks more than two pads I would have to hack.

So, Havok, I can clearly see your point in lieu of THIS project as I need quite a few inputs.   But in terms of a small cabinet that would only have 1 joy and perhaps 3 or 4 playing buttons, I think I would be still better off with a hack.

Geo