Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?  (Read 5372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6026
  • Last login:Today at 09:57:54 am
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2012, 06:52:23 pm »
I don't think DarthMarino was trying to put out the notion that angling is magical and awesome, he was dispelling the notion that angling doesn't exist in commercial games. A fact that I have heard ad nauseum from a lot of very smart people here.

I don't agree with your justification as to why 3 player games don't count. All those 3 player control panels seemed pretty wide to me. My 4 player Trog had a narrower control panel than some of those. An angled control is an angled control, no matter the number of players or amount of room.

Oh, and the Combatribes cabinet. I think he might have been thinking of Mercs. It's angled. I think combatribes is a common conversion of the cabinet. Also, wrestlefest I believe is really angled, it is just most machines out there are conversions they created 2 different models of the 4 player cabinet at the same time. I think Darth Marino might have done his homework on this one.  :applaud:

Edit: Found out more info on wrestlefest.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:55:35 pm by Vigo »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1457
  • Last login:July 13, 2019, 11:48:20 pm
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2012, 08:54:52 pm »
Ok, lets look at this list of supposed hard evidence for the correctness and awesomeness of angling player 3 and 4.

That didn't seem to be the point of the list.  ???

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10993
  • Last login:April 28, 2019, 09:13:51 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2012, 09:04:44 pm »
Ok, lets look at this list of supposed hard evidence for the correctness and awesomeness of angling player 3 and 4.

That didn't seem to be the point of the list.  ???

Ok, then just subtract those words, the results still stand that only a handful of games angled and those titles were not very well received overall.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

DarthMarino

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 496
  • Last login:Today at 07:36:07 am
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2012, 09:52:49 pm »
Ok, then just subtract those words, the results still stand that only a handful of games angled and those titles were not very well received overall.

So the implication is that those games failed BECAUSE they had angled sticks?  I can assure you NBA Jam Extreme would have still sucked no matter what angle the sticks were at.  Wrestlefest and Pit Fighter were certainly successful at the time and the former is enjoying a resurgence with it's new Xbox remake.  We can now add Mercs to the list, another successful game with several sequels. Vigo's excellent post completely grasps the point I am trying to make.  I'm not saying that it's better to angle your sticks, but when the topic comes up, let's try and cut the hyperbole and give people reasonable and accurate information about it.

DaveMMR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3199
  • Last login:January 17, 2019, 11:54:59 am
    • TeeVee Games
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2012, 06:53:06 am »
we can now add Mercs to the list, another successful game with several sequels.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Mercs successful. I'm sure it did okay but it doesn't exactly make many arcade gamers "top games" list. And there was not a line of Mercs sequels - though that game is considered a sequel to Commando according to KLOV (spritual or direct I don't know - I'm not familiar with the game's story.) Matter of fact, the only port I can think of of that game is the Genesis/Mega Drive version.

And +1 to what Xiaou said there.

But I also like Unstupid's earlier remark: are you sure you really want a 4 player cabinet anyway? They're just never comfortable and the games everyone seems to want to play are one-and-two player games only (e.g. Pac-Man and SFII, respectively). YMMV on that one, of course.

I think a good solution may be to build two stand alone, single-player control panels (like the NES Advantage or similar) that can plug into a 2 player cab and placed on some pedestal for the occasional 4-player game. And you can angle however you'd like since it's not bolted down to anything.  ;)

wcndave

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Last login:February 07, 2019, 05:53:43 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2012, 07:07:40 am »
I think the problem is the word "common" in the OP.

I actually tried to succinctly summarise this for my own benefit when i started my cab prototype a few months ago, and i think it might help clarify the issues for any other newbs.

1. there is no correct answer.

You may as well ask "what is the best colour", there are practical, aesthetic and personal styles involved.

Here's how I initially ran through the problem.

(fig 1) 4 clones in a row takes up about 2m of space - no way I am building a panel that big



Now we stick a nice big screen in (Fig 2)



and have a look from above (Fig 3)



This feels wrong to me, the difference between A and B, so I rotate player 3 to face the screen (Fig 4)



Now A and B are in the same direction.

But let's take a closer look at player 3's perspective (Fig 5)



We now have a discrepancy between A/B and C, the actual direction of travel as seen on the screen...

I do think I would always naturally face the screen, as per Fig 4, so I started thinking about games I might play in the arcades.

MK type games, I feel is all about muscle memory, special moves etc, I move my hands in relation to my body.
Simpsons type games, I play more in relation to the screen, ie point the joystick towards where I want to go from my perspective.

Then there are those games (which I have never played) which involve 2 joysticks, which have to be in the same plane.

Fig 3 seems to be good, as my movements in relation to my body are in the correct orientation, AND they are in the same plane as the screen, which solves the problem of A/B vs C in Fig 5.

But I just don't see myself standing facing away from the screen, and the space is really restricted.

So there just is no answer... it really depends, do you have 3 mates that want to play? do you like to face the screen, do you relate controls to your body, or to the perspective of the screen to you? and if you are the builder, you are probably not going to be player 3/4 anyway!

I reckon that building something which is perfect for 90% of your gametime, and forget about the other 10% being sub-optimal is best.  This depends on what you play, how you play it, and with whom.

I did this, and built a 2 player with the controls slightly angled (only 5 deg), just so we don't bump shoulders (something I have never seen, but it's a bit like an ergonomic keyboard, player 2 is right handed can be a bit awkward when it's straight), and this works for ME.

No wars, just everyone living their lives how they want ;-)

I hope that helps any newbs think abut the types of critieria / issues involved.  It seems the arguments tend to stem from one method becoming "de-facto" and those who don't like it saying that is the wrong approach.  Which is true.  Until they argue that their approach should be the de-facto... and then it's wargames.

A possible answer to "common" is:

1. 4 players straight, all controls face north
2. 4 players in a curve, all controls face north
3. 4 players in a curve, all controls face screen


I built a prototype from cheap ply to make sure I get it right.  Problem is we've not stopped playing since, so the build has come to a stop!














Trip

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Last login:December 08, 2017, 12:47:49 pm
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2012, 08:26:14 am »
This totally is the Android vs iPhone of the Arcade world   :lol

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6026
  • Last login:Today at 09:57:54 am
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2012, 10:16:33 am »
Nobody has stated, not here.. nor anywhere that Ive seen... that there Never once been a commercial game with angled sticks.   People have always stated... that there are VERY FEW games that had done so... and the few that did angle, often had issues, were not very good games, or were passable merely due to the kind of forgiving gameplay that they used.

 :dunno Well, perhaps nobody let out an Ultimatum that there have never ever been any commercial games that angled there controls in the complete history of arcade machines, but it is very commonly said that angled joystick games just don't exist commercially except for maybe one or two exceptions. I think that is even touted a couple times early on in this thread.

Heck, you have even pointed out in the past that there are no 4 player games with angled controls.

For one, I can tell you havent seen a lot of the larger 4player cps that were in the arcades.  Gauntlet is a rare exception with its highly condensed CP.  Most of the others are beasts, and used non-enclosed 25" monitors, with plenty of viewability for all the players.  NONE of these angled the sticks, when clearly they COULD have done so to save space and money.  Of course, this is all ignoring all the rigorous testing and feedback they got from massed of players...

Which is honestly not a big deal that you said that, lots of others have pointed out the same thing, and ususally experienced people such as yourself. I've probably said it on occasion, and the industry standard is still to not angle them. That point has not changed. I think we need to chalk it up as a dispelled myth that angling really doesn't exist. To be honest, I used to play a ton of Captain America that was at a campground I went to as a kid. I completely forgot that it was an angled game until this thread.  ;)

drventure

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4152
  • Last login:February 01, 2019, 06:15:33 pm
  • Laser Death Ray Bargain Bin! Make me an offer!
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2012, 10:33:35 am »
Someone made the point a little earlier, I believe, but I'll throw my support to it.

I angled the p34 sticks on my buffet build. Not because I had any particular philosophy one way or the other, but because it seemed to make the most sense given the shape of the cp and the angle of the player to the screen. Of course, back then, when I started my build I had absolutely no idea what I was doing (probably still don't know much better  :) )

I've had a number of people play it and only one person commented on the outer sticks. Doesn't necessarily mean much but there it is.

The biggest issue with it from my perspective, looking back, is for those simultaneous 2 player/2 stick games like SmashTV. There's not many of them, but they are fun to play 2 players at the same time, and I really can't do so on my cab.

I probably wouldn't angle them if I did it over, for that reason if no other.

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18854
  • Last login:Today at 11:13:07 am
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2012, 10:39:31 am »
I posted this on March 1, in a similar thread:

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

DarthMarino

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 496
  • Last login:Today at 07:36:07 am
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2012, 11:51:10 am »
Xiaou,

I'm certainly not trying to raise a point about angled sticks on 2 player cabinets.  You'll get no argument from me about how rare or pointless that is. I'm talking specifically about the outside players on 3 and 4 player games.  The following statements have been made by some of the top posters here regarding this topic:

"On original arcade games, up on the joystick was always parallel with the sides of the cab, even if the player were standing to the side and the buttons were angled. "

"I think that, over all of the years, we have come up with exactly one commercially-produced arcade cabinet with angled sticks ... and that took years to find."

"4 player machines did NOT angle the joysticks for player 3 and 4. The only post 1977 game us researchers could find that did this was Mercs, and playing Mercs on a side position is painful."

I've seen statements like this several times when the topic comes up. That's why when a I noticed a few that were angled I decided to look into it more.  There's about 150 games that qualify for this argument.  Half the games I couldn't even find a reasonable picture to make a conclusion.  I looked at maybe 75-80 games and found 10 machines that appear to have been originally manufactured this way.  We've added Mercs and I will now add Tecmo Bowl. It's not overwhelming but some games were manufactured this way.

Player 3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
  • Last login:December 21, 2014, 08:21:49 pm
  • The Alternative Idiot
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2012, 01:31:09 pm »
I know what you mean, Trip. Bottom line, Being player 3 or 4 sucks no matter how it is orientated.  :lol

As Player 3, I can agree with this.
(Besides, how often would four people even meet up at the same time? Party?)

Nephasth

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2012, 02:30:56 pm »
(Besides, how often would four people even meet up at the same time? Party?)

Somebody doesn't have kids...

Trip

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Last login:December 08, 2017, 12:47:49 pm
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2012, 02:34:01 pm »
Somebody doesn't have kids...

or friends. 

Seriously, why do you guys care so much what people do with their own arcades in their own homes?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 04:39:33 pm by Trip »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1457
  • Last login:July 13, 2019, 11:48:20 pm
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2012, 06:10:13 pm »
Seriously, why do you guys care so much what people do with their own arcades in their own homes?


paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10993
  • Last login:April 28, 2019, 09:13:51 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2012, 09:14:11 pm »
You know another thing factory 4 player games with angled sticks seemed to have in common? They mostly seem to come from the unsuccessful companies in the industry. A lot of them seemed to come from console software makers who dabbled in arcade games. And for the most part each company that did it only seemed to do it for a game or 2 before either getting out of arcade titles or reverting to standard controls.

Your body isn't really a good reference point in relation to an arcade stick. If it was then Q*Bert would suddenly become playable if you turned to the side a little bit (tried that, doesn't help much).

Not going to get into the 3 player titles which overall seemed to angle as a way to squish 3 sets of arms into a 23" wide panel, with little care given to the playability.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

wcndave

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Last login:February 07, 2019, 05:53:43 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2012, 01:17:24 pm »
I'm certainly not trying to raise a point about angled sticks on 2 player cabinets.  You'll get no argument from me about how rare or pointless that is.

thanks, seems most have missed my point that what works for YOUR games / style / space / friend visit frequency.

personally I find that MK special moves where up = north west are very difficult, but that is ME!  that was my point.

anyway, I will leave the trolls to their fun and games.

Tiberian Fiend

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • Last login:September 25, 2012, 01:54:16 am
  • Canis tiberius
Re: Player 3 and 4 joysticks: common orientation?
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2012, 01:50:00 am »
I must be a weirdo, because I made the outer angled joysticks players 1 and 2 to avoid elbow wars.  I haven't had any problems playing at an angle so far.