Do any of you guys build these cab's to sell?

[Hoagie_one]

After I get teh first couple built for myself and friends, I was thinkin about building mini cabs for selling.

Thank there is any money in it?

[teef two]

This has been discussed here before. There are of course established vendors in the market (i.e. X-Arcade)

Obviously you have to think about shipping costs, liability over electrical safety etc. Also you couldn't sell them with ROMs only with the software to run em so it would require the new owner to configure the system themselves. Also there are service agreements, guarnatees, after sales care, marketing etc.

It's a lot of hassle but if you can make it pay then the best of luck to you.

[rampy]

My wife has seen how much i'm into the hobby, and wondered aloud if there was a way to turn it into a venture of some sort.

Forgettig my lack of space/work space/tools for a second:

1. it's probably only fun, when you do it for fun and not under the duress of customer deadlines
2. Need to factor overhead/time into the equation
3. after sale support issues
4. trying to skirt the "empty PC" problem... i.e. not profiting off of mame... which turns into a support problem trying to direct someone to install/acquire MAME/roms/FE/etc without enabling them as part of the price.

*shrug* I dunno... when you build a cabinet people always want to konw if you'd sell it, or where they could get one... but that's not exactly market research =P

rampy

[Hoagie_one]

AYE, it looks like the issues counteract the benefits

[Wade]

I would think that if you had a group of friends or family members that would want them, you could sell them and make a little money.  Who cares about the legal issues if you are selling them on a personal basis.  Now if you want to sell them on Ebay or something it'd be a lot tougher and you'd better go "by the book".

Wade

[RacerX]

The number one reason why I would never build these things to sell is the after sale support issue.  I don't want to be getting calls every day because the latest dunderhead I made a cab for accidentally deleted the ROM folder because he thought he didn't need it.  (or any one of a million other stupid things like that)

Working as a developer has taught me one thing.  No matter how idiot-proof you think your software is, the world is always churning out bigger and better idiots who can find a way to break it by doing something that no person in their right mind would ever have a reason to do.

[Shieldwolf]

I am not a dunderhead  

[SNAAAKE]

you can if you have space to work.
As for profit,next to nothing selling sticks but whole cabinet.
yeah you can make money if you have atleast 1 helper and you are pretty good building cabinets.
that customarcade dude makes good money I can guess.
*trying* to sell cabs for 5 grand(ouch )

[spectre]

I don't think anyone would pay you for it. We make cabs because it is a hobby and it's fun, and WE can play them...the fun would go out of it with customer deadlines and the support and not selling the mame stuff with it...it's more or less a self serving hobby rather than a money making venture...if you do choose to do that tho...best of luck to ya, plan carefully...and be cost effective and it might just work out...

[Jeehemdee]

Hoagie_one,

Do you have pictures of the minicabs you've built ?

[Hoagie_one]

Minicabs are still under construction.  Going to get teh 10 in monitors on monday.

They look like table top arcade cabs, except the control panel is the bottom of the cab and rests on teh table.

Has a marquee on it too.  It'll be a few weeks till im close to done as im going out of town for a week

edit:  and im having a hard time figuring out how to fit all the computer parts inside, lol

[paigeoliver]

Making Mame cabinets for money out of old cabs? Yes, a lot of people do it, and they ALL sell them with the roms. You see them at every auction, and in the paper sometimes.

Actually building new Mame cabinets from scratch for money? Stupid idea. The sheer labor and cost involved with building a cabinet makes the idea insane, especially since your "new" cabinet won't sell for anything more than a reconverted one will. It might even sell for less. A lot of people don't want homemade cabinets, because on a whole they are of a much lower build quality than factory cabinets. Have you SEEN some of the stuff people have built themselves? I am not naming any names, and god bless you for trying, but I have seen some hand built cabinets that I wouldn't even let my dog play, and I don't even have a dog.

[Hoagie_one]

Quick Sketch

[Wade]

The number one reason why I would never build these things to sell is the after sale support issue.  I don't want to be getting calls every day because the latest dunderhead I made a cab for accidentally deleted the ROM folder because he thought he didn't need it.  (or any one of a million other stupid things like that)

Working as a developer has taught me one thing.  No matter how idiot-proof you think your software is, the world is always churning out bigger and better idiots who can find a way to break it by doing something that no person in their right mind would ever have a reason to do.

I'll do my best not to touch your developer comment... let's just say, I disagree.

This is why if I were to make a cabinet for someone else, I'd lock it down.  I'd install a bunch of popular games or games they requested, set it up in DOS mame and give them no keyboard.  All they could do was launch games from GameLauncher, and turn the machine on and off.

If they want to plug a keyboard up to it and start jacking with the setup, it's their own problem!

Wade

[gyruss]

RacerX - I like your comments on end-users and software.  
Being a developer I can relate.

I've thought about building cabinets for resale. I think there's a lot of people who would like one, but probably aren't willing to pay what you'd need to charge to build a nice one. Maybe near a large city someone could make it work. You may need to do other things as well, like pinball & dedicated machine repair or something.

[armad1ll0]

Hannaho does quite some business selling them actually. At 5K per cab they do make good money. I was talking to Richard about the finantials during E3 at our booth and it's amazing how these things are "big boy toys."

Like once they sold one to one LA Angels Baseball player, "it was like dominoes, they all had to have one"

[Sasquatch!]

Agreeing on a couple of points already touched on:

1. I fear that it would cease being "fun" if I turned it into "work".

2a. Support before/during the sale.

Let's face it, getting MAME working properly isn't cut-and-dry.  You can't sell the cabinet with MAME or the ROMs, so at the very least, you'd would have to point people to where they could go to acquire these things, and you'd have to show them how to set it all up.  I would imagine that most people who are plunking down cash for something would want it to fully work "right out of the box"; in other words, they won't want to pay money for something and then be told "Well, I can't legally set it up for you, but here are some helpful websites!  Good luck!"

2b. Support after the sale.

The continuation of 2a., especially if you get someone who's not all that computer-saavy.  Again, most people just want it all to work - they won't want to have to deal with troubleshooting it, which leads them right back to you.

[Chris]

OKay, how about a different tack: Not really trying to profit from MAME, but make it just enough of a business for tax purposes?  That way, you can write off some of the "loss" on your "demo unit" (your own cab).

[shmokes]

Write it off for any home business.  Just put it where your clients can play it.  

[StLouisRod]

I've sold 5 custom-made VIRTUACADE Mame cabinets so far... though it required much "blood, sweat, and tears".  Almost more work than it's worth, but it's a fun hobby for me.  Like others have stated, I've sold several to Major League baseball players.  $3500 is like one "at bat" for them!  

Here's my site:

www.ru-gaming.com

Feel free to place an order!  

[Frostillicus]

Everyone thinks about building cabs for money - especially after friends and family see the finished result of one, are very impressed, and say "wow I could never do this, you should make these and sell them!!".  *sigh*

I personallly wouldn't mind building them, they don't take that long if you have one or two basic designs (read, no rotating panels or other fancy stuff), and if you build like 3 or 4 at a time.  Setup time in my garage took longer than actually doing it sometimes, so I'd do a bunch at a time.

I built my first cab intending to sell it, but that was a good friend of mine.  Support bugs me everynow and then when he can't grasp the idea of not all games work correctly.  I usually say "can you play one of the other 2700 games on it instead?" and forget about updating.  Multiply that by however many computer illiterate customers you'd have.

But my biggest fear would be the moment it turned from a highly enjoyable hobby that combines woodworking, electronics, and computer tinkering, to when it becomes boring and starts to feel like too much "work."  That would suck.

[Wade]

Here's some really nice ones, I wonder how much they sell for:

http://www.chimenti.org/arcade/pr042702/pages/ricks008_RT8.htm

That artwork is very nice, wouldn't mind a set for my own cab!!

First of all, if you are going to sell a Mame, you might as well load it up with all the ROMS anyway.  I'm pretty sure that MOST people play roms they don't own.  I also think that Mame games at auctions are already loaded up.  I think the big reason people started "unloading" the roms was to make it more "legal" for ebay.  It just doesn't make sense to set it all up, then kill the roms and make a poor user reinstall them just for the "legal" reasons.

I don't think the user support issue is that big of a deal.  Assuming you load all the roms, just lock the machine down after that, don't give them a keyboard.  That eliminates almost all of your potential support right there.  Only reason they'd have to call you is if something actually DID break.  It is possible to make a machine that requires virtually no support.

Think of it like an ATM machine.  The user interface is highly restricted.  The amount of trouble the users can get themselves into is limited.

Wade

[Frostillicus]

First of all, if you are going to sell a Mame, you might as well load it up with all the ROMS anyway.  ....

You already said that, let's not get into that discussion here....that's been argued before.

I don't think the user support issue is that big of a deal.  Assuming you load all the roms, just lock the machine down after that, don't give them a keyboard.  That eliminates almost all of your potential support right there.  Only reason they'd have to call you is if something actually DID break.  It is possible to make a machine that requires virtually no support.

Maybe, BUT let's assume they are getting a decent computer with the cab - they will probably want to install other games on it too.  Links2003 or maybe YDKJ.  More than just mame.  So 'locking down' the computer doesn't make much sense.  Email, jukebox, etc are all valid uses for a computer, especially one that needs to be good enough to run Mame well.  I wouldn't want to deny that functionality.

[rampy]

Think of it like an ATM machine.  The user interface is highly restricted.  The amount of trouble the users can get themselves into is limited.

Wade

Just to be contentious... you've obviously never had your card eaten by an ATM for being absent minded and not removing it before 20 - 30 seconds after your trasnaction ended. =P

rampy

[Wade]

Maybe, BUT let's assume they are getting a decent computer with the cab - they will probably want to install other games on it too.  Links2003 or maybe YDKJ.  More than just mame.  So 'locking down' the computer doesn't make much sense.  Email, jukebox, etc are all valid uses for a computer, especially one that needs to be good enough to run Mame well.  I wouldn't want to deny that functionality.

I really couldn't disagree with you more.

To sell a Mame machine, locking it down DOES make sense.  Leaving the PC open for the user to install any piece of junk software or game that they wish is simply a bad idea.

We are talking about the question of supporting an installed Mame arcade box.  Leaving the software "open" to Windows and including a keyboard (or whatnot) would make the possible support problems increase exponentially!  More support problems = less money.

The best way to set up a Mame for sale is with DOS only and a front end, and lock it all down with no keyboard.  This way there are virtually no software fixes.  No "shutting down", no Windows blowing up for no reason, no worries about the user installing some piece of junk software or contracting a virus from something downloaded from the internet, etc.  The most likely way something would go wrong is a legitimate hardware failure.


Just because the computer *can* do other things doesn't mean it should.  My machine has an athlon 1700+ and it runs DOS and GameLauncher.  No jukebox, no Windows games, etc.  I wanted my machine to be as close to a real arcade game as possible, but able to play many games.  I don't want to use the PC for a bunch of other things, "just because it can."

IMO, making a Mame arcade cabinet do "other things" is really just a hobby of those who want to tinker and know something about software.  Many people on this forum fall into this category.  Why else would people spend hours making graphics and setting up a front end that is more sophisticated than the games themselves?  It's not because their time is valuable or because they plan to making money from it, obviously.  These are not the same people who would pay good money for a nicely set up cabinet either.  So why leave the ability to do these things?  It could only lead to support problems.

Also, if a person knows (or cares) very little about the computer itself, and is paying big bucks for a Mame cabinet (I assure you, any of the nice, professional looking/performing Mame cabinets are running in the $2000+ range), why would he care if there is a CPU in there that is worth $200 that isn't being utilized "to the fullest"?  Who cares... the game does what the buyer wants (plays thousands of video games accurately and in an authentic/realistic cabinet.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't add extra functionality to their own cabs, if they know how.  Do what you want with your own stuff, right?  But leaving the possibility open for a commercial Mame cabinet venture would be a mistake (to put it lightly).

Okay, so maybe I went a little overboard trying to get my point across.

Wade

[StLouisRod]

$2000.00?!?!?  You can't even get a state of the art PC for $2000.00 anymore!  Much less surrounded by a brand new arcade cabinet with 27" SVGA monitor, stereo speakers, sub-woofer, 4 joysticks, 30 buttons, spinner, trackball, etc. etc.  The materials ALONE for my Virtuacade machines is around $2500!!!  That's why I have to charge nearly $3500.00 for a finished product.  

Bottom line, EVERYONE, even PC illiterates, will want to install their own PC software once they realize there's a PC inside.  The first thing a MLB player wants to know is "Can I install my copy of Triple Play 2002 on it?"  They will also want to play DVD movies, listen to Mp3's, etc. etc.  And why shouldn't they?  They paid for it!

But some PC illiterates are frightened when they hear "PC inside".  For those types, yes, a pure DOS-based front end and Mame application is preferred.  

[Frostillicus]

Just because the computer *can* do other things doesn't mean it should.  My machine has an athlon 1700+ and it runs DOS and GameLauncher.  No jukebox, no Windows games, etc.  I wanted my machine to be as close to a real arcade game as possible, but able to play many games.  I don't want to use the PC for a bunch of other things, "just because it can."

Obviously, we disagree.  I can see your point if perhaps the PC is a POS pentium 2 or something, but a 1700+ (1.5ghz?) is still pretty good these days.  Let's look at the cabinet- fundementally it's just a glorified box of wood with fancy controls on it.  It's not an asteroids or dig dug dedicated machine, but rather a generic cabinet - why would you only put mame in it(and not z26, epsxe, zinc, etc).  That's like buying a microwave but using it only to heat burritos. Granted, burritos(mame) are good, but there are other things out there.  Like hot pockets and steakums.

My worst fear with your 'locked down' solution would be the call from a prior customer a few months after they bought a cab, and they say they want to know how to put a new game on it - like golden tee PC.  Would you just tell them it's not possible? I don't think I could say that to someone, because obviously it is possible.  An interesting dilemma.
 

[rampy]

Obviously, we disagree.  I can see your point if perhaps the PC is a POS pentium 2 or something, but a 1700+ (1.5ghz?) is still pretty good these days.  Let's look at the cabinet- fundementally it's just a glorified box of wood with fancy controls on it.  It's not an asteroids or dig dug dedicated machine, but rather a generic cabinet - why would you only put mame in it(and not z26, epsxe, zinc, etc).  That's like buying a microwave but using it only to heat burritos. Granted, burritos(mame) are good, but there are other things out there.  Like hot pockets and steakums.

My worst fear with your 'locked down' solution would be the call from a prior customer a few months after they bought a cab, and they say they want to know how to put a new game on it - like golden tee PC.  Would you just tell them it's not possible? I don't think I could say that to someone, because obviously it is possible.  An interesting dilemma.
 

mmmm hotpockets.

See THIS is where the real money is.  Service Contracts and "upgrades".... just charge plumber prices =P  Sell them the razor for 2-3k then charge them for the blades too!

Just to give a flip side of the coin:

You are selling (hopefully) "a multiple arcade game machine" and not a pc in a fancy box with fancy controls.  You don't  HAVE to give them the keys to the kingdom, BUT you shouldn't be responsible for what they do to it.

IE if I hack my TIVO (that i don't own) and break it and it needs service... TIVO doesn't come over and fix it for me, for free.  If a customer adds unsupported/addtional stuff to their MAME cabinet -- then they should have to pay for service (maybe have 1 free incident or 30/60 days as part of the package)

Granted this is different with friends and family members.

StLouisRod --> I guess we now know how fernando really hurt is Hammy... he tried to move his mame cabinet! (hypothetically -- I of course don't know slr's client base or how fernando hurt his hammy... I don't even follow the cards.  it's a joke..see)

blah

rampy

[Chris]

Just because the computer *can* do other things doesn't mean it should.  My machine has an athlon 1700+ and it runs DOS and GameLauncher.  No jukebox...

Heh... I had to put in a jukebox or my wife wouldn't let it in the house.    Ended up having to write my own for DOS, too...

[Wade]

StLouisRod:

Note I said $2000+ (that plus means, "and above")  A very nice Mame can be built for far less than $2000.  Tips: Don't spend $600+ for a prebuild cabinet from ArcadeShopper and a $500 monitor, start with a Jamma cab with monitor included for half that price.  That alone cuts approximately $1000 in parts.  But I digress, this thread isn't really about the cost of parts, or the cheaper ways to build a Mame.

If the point is to avoid end user support down the road (which I think is important), I think I'd sell a Mame stating that no software modifications could be performed.  If any were, then they are "on their own" and if things break, I will fix it by charging $75 hourly (or whatever the going rate for PC repair).  Normally, I would fix any problems for free for a certain period (perhaps, a year).  But if they want to go jacking around with it... I'm not going to fix it, unless I'm getting paid.

I really don't understand the temptation to do lots of "other things" on a Mame cabinet.

Watching DVDs:
I would never watch a DVD on a mame cabinet.  First of all, why would a purpose-built Mame cab even have a DVD player.  Secondly, why would I watch a DVD on it when the monitor is angled upwards towards the game player's eyes?  It's a lot less comfortable to stand in front of an arcade game to watch a DVD than it is to sit on my couch and watch it on a real TV.  And I doubt many people have a Mame game sitting in their living room/media room/etc. in place of a real TV.  My wife would never let me stick a game in any room in the house other than the game room or basement!  I know there are lots of people on this forum who have games in living rooms or whatever, but those are generally single/young/living in apartment types.  Those are not the same people who spend big bucks on a prebuilt Mame.

Listening to MP3's/Jukebox:
I don't see the point in this either because most people have a stereo that is much better than the one in an arcade box.  Even if you want an MP3 jukebox, if you are going to have people over for a party, do you want to ask them to stop playing the arcade so they can listen to music?  If you must have an MP3 jukebox, it seems smarter to use your old 200mhz PC hooked up to the net and a real stereo system.

How are they going to get all the MP3s?  Are you going to load 100 gigabytes of music on their for them?  That'll take some time.  Are you going to let them surf for music themselves?  Do you really think they are going to want to take the time to dig up music on the net?  I don't even bother with it, and I'm a tech type with broadband at home.  Some of you already have vast MP3 collections to use at home, more than likely the people you are selling a machine to do not.  (Again, I suppose you could preload it all.. but what are you selling, an arcade game, or a PC in a box?)

Other PC games:
Are you going to explain how to set up the controls for them, how to get the game to launch from the frontend, etc?  I don't.  Like I said before, I'd be charging by the hour for this stuff.


Frostillicus:

We can agree to disagree.  Fair enough.

As far as the microwave analogy.  I'd say that using a Mame to play MP3's, surf, etc., is like using a microwave (which is meant to cook food) to melt plastic... to generate lightning from metal... to destroy household pets... etc.

If a buyer came to me and said, "Can I do this with it?", I'd tell them it is possible, but it is a lot of trouble.  They can pay me to set it up, if they want.  There are all kinds of things that are possible, but that doesn't mean they should be done.  There are so many things that computers can do, and software can do, but most businesses don't do it, or don't install it or set it up.  Why?  Because it isn't worth the trouble.  Because it costs too much to support it.  Because it opens their systems up to virus problems, performance problems.


Rampy:

I think we are looking at it similarly.  It would be much easier to be success at selling these things if they were "An arcade game that plays a thousand games" versus "A PC in a really big, heavy box, that can do ANYTHING you could ever want it to do, including play arcade games!"  Unless you are charging hourly for support.



*********************

Bottom line, if someone wants to build Mame cabs to make money, they are out to make money.  Not to show the world all the great things a PC can do.  If you are out to make money with PCs - limiting, reducing, avoiding "FREE" support is critical.  Unless of course, your product costs NOTHING and the buyer is essentially paying for nothing but support (not the case with a Mame cabinet, unless you are charging $10k for it).

That said, it's my opinion that like most things I/T or PC related, if you want to be successful with it or not get killed by "support", you better lock it down tight.  Security might not be as important as with an ATM, but I'd treat it similarly.


I don't mean to be so talkative about this, or be so forceful (I'm sure I'm coming across too strong).  I just find this very interesting, and I haven't been very busy at work lately (read: bored!)

Wade

[F|end]

I agree perfectly with paigeoliver's thread! )


That's why i'm gonna see if i can get one generic copyrighted caB!

The best cabs to 'mametize' there is!  

[Frostillicus]

Wade:

yeah, like you I'm a little bored at work today.  and slightly hungover - hence the hotpocket and steakum cravings.  

I don't believe in free tech support (my time is $$$ like everyone elses), but there should be a few months or so of free phone/email/on site to a customer after they buy a cab.

And I guess the fundamental difference in our thinking is that you are thinking of the cab business as MAME only, where in fact I would want to offer more funcionality in terms of games and such.  If someone buys a cab to 'relive' the 80's so to speak he will most likely also want Z26 to emulate his long gone Atari2600, or RockNES for the nostalgic NES memories.

I also look at in terms of features to sell to prospective buyers.  Faced with a choice of Machine A which can only play MAME, and Machine B which can play MAME DAPHNE Z26 JUKEBOX MOVIES etc etc which do you think the customer would rather want?  

As for the movies - my monitor is only slightly tilted back - if I sit on the couch it's essentially facing right at me.   Use a TV and you have an instant basement entertainment center for the kids - XBOX, PS2, TV and MOVIES, etc - even email.  Stick a decent sound system in there and it's basically an all-in-one.   I think that's cool.

Music listening - I initially thought that it would indeed be tough to have one machine play MP3s and be the arcade machine of the party. However, I've found that if I pick a huge playlist first or just set the player to shuffle, then I can start up mame and have the music running in the background.  Obviously - the tunes are already picked - or they can edit the list between games.   I don't really care how they get the MP3's, but they can get their own.  I would never sell a collection as that's high profile illegal these days.

All that said, please keep in mind I'm picturing a regular basic cab that looks like an arcade and MAME is its main purpose.  I shudder at the thought of the x-arcade bookshelf - so that's not what I mean when I say all-in-one entertainment center.

This was long-winded, as well, but an interesting discussion all the same.
Now where did I put that hotpocket.....

[Wade]

You gotta stop that, I'm seriously craving a hot pocket now...

Wade

[Frostillicus]

heh heh - they are the perfect food  

[RacerX]

The number one reason why I would never build these things to sell is the after sale support issue.  I don't want to be getting calls every day because the latest dunderhead I made a cab for accidentally deleted the ROM folder because he thought he didn't need it.  (or any one of a million other stupid things like that)

Working as a developer has taught me one thing.  No matter how idiot-proof you think your software is, the world is always churning out bigger and better idiots who can find a way to break it by doing something that no person in their right mind would ever have a reason to do.

I'll do my best not to touch your developer comment... let's just say, I disagree.

This is why if I were to make a cabinet for someone else, I'd lock it down.  I'd install a bunch of popular games or games they requested, set it up in DOS mame and give them no keyboard.  All they could do was launch games from GameLauncher, and turn the machine on and off.

If they want to plug a keyboard up to it and start jacking with the setup, it's their own problem!

Wade

If you can write a useful piece of software that has no way for anyone to ever break it, by all means, bring it to market.  You'll make a fortune, and I wish you well.

But the thing about it is, even if your software is not at fault, if something happens or the user wants something and your software won't do it (because it was not in the specs), the user will still blame *you* because you should have anticipated every possible future need (at least when you write systems strictly for internal use like I do).

[Ghouly]

What if you just built the cab and controls hooked to an ipac and let them deal with the computer software etc. All they'd have to do is plug the ipac into the usb snd go at it.....just a thought.

[IceCold]

I've thought about possibly selling my cab in a couple years, maybe to buy my first car.  I also thought about making like 2 bartop mame cabs to take to Cinciclassic with me and sell.

I think it's really fun to build cabinets, but I think it would lose all the fun once it becomes work.  Selling a few cabinets could be fun, but selling tons may not be fun anymore.

I don't know from experience though, so don't take anything I say as truth.

[jakejake28]

mamewah's new version is great for the informed user, but you can edit the .cfg file from the front-end. some curious person will more than likely not screw it up, and the only way to fix it is to go over and re-programme it.

[StLouisRod]

Good points Wade and Frosty... though I have to agree with Frosty.  There's generally about a 50/50 split for Mame cab customers: half want to start upgrading, adding MP3's, installing games, etc. the minute they get the machine, while the other half don't know and don't care.

But I've found that you need to keep the software and hardware for your products similar or else support can become a nightmare.  This also makes it possible to hire other people to build the machines FOR me.  They can follow the pattern.   It also allowed me to Copyright my design and trademark my name VIRTUACADE.  

So that's why I go with the Arcadeshopper cabinets with pre-cut control panels and SVGA (800x600) hybrid monitors like the NeoTec (700 of which are on back-order at Happs right now!  So obviously I'm not the ONLY one who uses them) or the Wells Gardner D9200 (more expensive but the best overall Mame monitor you can buy).

Wade:

When you suggest buying a Jamma cab + monitor, are you talking about a brand new, unpainted cabinet from a supplier, or just an old arcade game gutted to convert into a Mame cabinet?  I might be interested in buying the former, but not the later.  It takes me more time to retrofit and old Jamma cabinet  (redesign the control panel, figure out how to fit the PC inside, repaint the sides, etc. etc.) than to build a known kit from scratch.  Can you give me more details?  Thx.

[Todd H]

Thanks for the info about Arcadeshopper.  I may pick up the cabinet kit for 550.  The electronics is easy for me.  I just suck at the actual construction of the cabinet.  Wood working was never my thing.