Ah, now I know why Lunar Lander seemed Off

[Ummon]

It's because the thrust control was 'backwards'. In two ways: first, in that in all my experience, at least prior to playing the game, and any that I can think of since, one pushes up or forward for thrust. Not back or down. Second, pulling back on the control is exactly the opposite way you want to go when thrusting in this game. You only want to go up - or perhaps maintain altitude.

[ark_ader]

Yeah I like the Firebird version called Thrust.

Lunar lander could have been made better, with better controls.

[ChadTower]

Lunar lander could have been made better, with better controls.

Blasphemous bastard.

[vputz]

in all my experience, at least prior to playing the game, and any that I can think of since, one pushes up or forward for thrust.

All depends on your point of view and/or previous occupation.  To a jet pilot, push means go forward.  To a helicopter guy, pull means the houses get smaller.

[cmoses]

Well then just change it. 

That is the beauty of MAME, in that you can change the controls to fit you or in some cases what you have on your control panel. 

Since most control panels do not contain a dedicated throttle lever you can make it whatever you want and configured how you would prefer it.

[Ummon]

in all my experience, at least prior to playing the game, and any that I can think of since, one pushes up or forward for thrust.

All depends on your point of view and/or previous occupation.  To a jet pilot, push means go forward.  To a helicopter guy, pull means the houses get smaller.

We're thinking thrust here, vs lift, though.

Yeah I like the Firebird version called Thrust.

Lunar lander could have been made better, with better controls.

The controls design is fine except the spring should've been attached from the other direction.

Well then just change it. 

That is the beauty of MAME, in that you can change the controls to fit you or in some cases what you have on your control panel. 

Since most control panels do not contain a dedicated throttle lever you can make it whatever you want and configured how you would prefer it.

Oh, sure. But I'm talking about the cab.

[vputz]

We're thinking thrust here, vs lift, though.

So are the pilots.  In a jet, pushing the throttle forward increases the thrust from the engine, which always pushes the craft forward; the stick changes the control surfaces which orient the plane.  In a helicopter, pulling the collective up increases the pitch of the main rotor, which increases its thrust; moving the cyclic (the stick) directly changes the orientation of that thrust in a hover, allowing flexible hovering motion.

In forward flight, the helicopter and jet fly surprisingly similarly; to go faster but level, in the jet you push (increase thrust), which will alter your pitch as you now have air moving over the wings faster; as I recall this will probably pitch you up a bit, so you'll have to push on the stick to nose over a bit (it's been a while).  With the helicopter, you pull (increase thrust), which means you immediately start climbing (airflow is down, so thrust vector is up), so you push on the cyclic a bit to nose over; the flow is now directed backward a bit (thrust vector forward), so the vertical component of lift is cancelled and you're now moving forward faster.

Below effective translational lift, a helicopter and jet fly far different, of course; the helicopter's thrust allows you to hover delicately, while the jet falls out of the sky and everybody dies.  But that's a different story. 

Or if you have enough thrust to overcome gravity, taking all control-surface lift out of the equation so that it's ENTIRELY a matter of thrust (ie very strong jet pointed straight up, helicopter in a hover), jet pilot pushes forward to go up, helicopter pulls up to go up.

This leads to confusion with the tilt-rotor crowd, depending on which sort of aircraft you flew first...

[u_rebelscum]

Think "Gas Pedal".  Down means more thrust.

Or think "button" for thrust.  Pushing down means more thrust.

Or "pinball plunger" vs ball speed.  Farther you pull, the faster/harder/farther the ball will go.

Or think "flame length".  Further you pull the level down, the longer the flame, & the harder the thrust.

I knew someone who hated AfterBurner because the airplane's thrust was forward = more, unlike cars pedals.  An airplane is not a car (much like a rocket is not an airplane).


FWIW, I think the cab's control gives the game more character.  Not saying it's the most intuitive or easiest, but definitely one of the reasons having the game cab would be cool.

[ChadTower]

Or think "button" for thrust.  Pushing down means more thrust.

That's what she said.

[RayB]

Or think "button" for thrust.  Pushing down means more thrust.

That's what she said.

[ChadTower]

Or think "button" for thrust.  Pushing down means more thrust.

That's what she said.

I was so close to removing the "on" from the quoted text.

[Ummon]

Or think "button" for thrust.  Pushing down means more thrust.

That's what she said.

I'm wondering about Chad, lately.

We're thinking thrust here, vs lift, though.

So are the pilots. 

But wait. Forward and up are similar, just as back and down are. So essentially they are the same in this instance as well as relative to the intended direction of the craft or resistance to falling. Hence, regardless, LL is screwy. (Hahn.)

[vputz]

Oh, come now--they couldn't mount the control in such a way that you could pull it up, which is the same reason Thrustmaster never made a collective control for home helicopter sims back when TM was an interesting company (I asked...)  So they kept the correct action and just mounted it on the panel.  I maintain my existing rotor-wing supremacy position:

1) The lunar lander can hover
2) Jets can't hover, so thinking it should work like a jet is a bad idea
3) Helicopters can hover, so thinking it should work like a helicopter may not be a bad idea,
4) In a helicopter, you pull a lever to increase thrust while landing, so
5) Lunar lander is doing it exactly right, and it's only the economic considerations that forced mounting the control on the panel instead of the floor next to a seat that prevent you from thinking in the right and proper way.

 

[Ummon]

I doubt it. I think they just thought screwy about it. It would've been easy to mount the spring at the other end. A helicopter control would've been ridiculous.

[Minwah]

Sorry to drag this old topic up but I was reading it and am a little confused (I never played on the real thing...)

It's because the thrust control was 'backwards'. In two ways: first, in that in all my experience, at least prior to playing the game, and any that I can think of since, one pushes up or forward for thrust. Not back or down.

Am I misunderstanding this or do you have to pull the lever towards you to thrust? That is what it sounds like...

But this video shows otherwise (see 1:30+):



Or could it be that he has modded it (?) Or is this comment relating to Mame's implementation (I can't remember exactly how it works in Mame).

Just curious as I have a spring loaded throttle lever which I was going to get rid of but thought for fun I might make a Lunar Lander panel (not sure whether for my cabinet or vectrex Moon Lander) 

[RayB]

Dammit, I want to play that game. I don't think I have EVER played the real thing.
(PS: yup, seems like it's push UP to thrust, which makes sense since it would make the lander go UP)

[Paul Olson]

I just tried playing this game for the first time. It is actually kinda interesting. I played on my MAME cab and set the Joystick up for the thrust (Dec = up, Inc = down). It works well since you have medium thrust when the stick is untouched - It really almost feels like you are using an analog controller.

OK, I just swapped the inputs, and with a joystick at least, I think it is easier to control with using down for thrust. I landed it perfect first try. No idea how to get more fuel though. 

edit: More coins = more fuel. Very short game per credit.

edit again: OK, not quite as much fun anymore. I landed 10 times, and started to get bored. There is some replay appeal to try to land faster...just not a whole lot.

[HeadRusch1]

I've played the original, it was always UP to thrust.

[Derrick Renaud]

Yeah, the controls are definitely wrong.  They also should be set as a pedal so they autocenter back to 0 instead of the middle thrust.

I'm sure they used to be that way in an older MAME, but it has changed it at some point.

I'll look at it when I get a chance.

[Ummon]

The cab was UP. I was saying it would make more sense if it were DOWN. Seems Paul agrees with me.

[Paul Olson]

It feels better that way using a joystick. The inputs need to true to the original regardless; then we can modify the settings if we want. I almost bought a Hydro Thunder throttle a couple of weeks ago; that would have been fun to try with this.

[Derrick Renaud]

The cab was UP. I was saying it would make more sense if it were DOWN. Seems Paul agrees with me.

I guess I'm just too used to playing the real cabinet pushing the thrust up.

In MAME, you can go into analog settings in the menu and turn reverse on to get the effect you are looking for.  Or turn the control around on a real cab.

[Paul Olson]

I think I would feel comfortable with the original with thrust up. With the joystick, however, it is nice to have the stick match the shape of the rockets thrust; if that makes sense at all. I am looking for that type of controller, so I will be able to try it someday.

[Derrick Renaud]

I think I would feel comfortable with the original with thrust up. With the joystick, however, it is nice to have the stick match the shape of the rockets thrust; if that makes sense at all. I am looking for that type of controller, so I will be able to try it someday.

But what happens when you can no longer stand life in space, turn your ship towards the ground, apply full thrust and become a crater in the ground?  Thrust would then be up.   

On a more serious note, if you are using a joystick, you can go to the player controls menu, select the thrust axis and then press the joystick axis you want to use.  Select the thrust axis again and press the same joystick axis and it will toggle between full/half-/half+.  So for you, keep pressing down on the joystick and selecting till it says Y+.  Now thrust will be joystick down.

[Paul Olson]

I actually do have a bit of a hard time getting turned around at the start of the game. And I have gotten bored and did a nosedive.    I may try changing the axis. I don't know though, the game got boring pretty quickly. I will definitely try it again though if I get a thrust controller.

[Ummon]

I hadn't thought of using my U360 with it, though the range is a might less than an actual control.

[Minwah]

Going OT slightly, I was thinking an alternative throttle control might be just a pot with a knob on it...a paddle really. Especially if it could be spring loaded to return to 'off'. Might be worth trying if you don't have space for a big throttle lever...

[blind_dado]

I have this set up to use the spinner for thrust.  It feels more natural than a joystick.

[Ummon]

Going OT slightly, I was thinking an alternative throttle control might be just a pot with a knob on it...a paddle really. Especially if it could be spring loaded to return to 'off'. Might be worth trying if you don't have space for a big throttle lever...

Those spring-loaded sticks used in some older golf/baseball games might work, except for the side to side play in them. (I'd orient mine upside-down of course.) Maybe rip and rig a control from studio video boards that do fade-in/out.