Author Topic: 2 player CP vs. 4 player CP (Read 6013 times)

pointdablame · « **on:** June 17, 2003, 05:22:00 pm »

First of all, hello, my name is Pete. I'm looking to build my first MAME cabinet very soon, so expect a lot of questions from me. I've been reading this for a while now, and after some trouble signing in to the forum (still having trouble with my comp at home using XP) I figured I'd give ya my first question.

I am leaning towards building an Ultimate Arcade II because I like the look of the larger CP, but I may possibly buy an old cabinet to use. Either way, some of my favorite arcade games are 4 player games such as the Simpsons and the X-men beat-em-up etc.

My question is: If I am thinking on a budget, should I start off with a 2 player CP and eventually build a 4 player in the future? Or just go for a 4player now? Also, are the games mentioned above playable with only a 2player CP? I'd really like all the opinions I can get, and you guys seem very knowledgeable. Thanks.

radiator · « **Reply #1 on:** June 17, 2003, 05:34:27 pm »

first off, welcome to the boards...

the 4 player issue depends on what you want vs what you need
ie, i was originally gonna go for 4 player, but came to the conclusion that there'd rarely be 4 people in my house, all wanting to play games...

as for 4 player games with a 2 player pannel, that'd be fine (but, obviously you'd only be able to have 2 players!

)

RacerX · « **Reply #2 on:** June 17, 2003, 05:37:20 pm »

First of all, welcome to the greatest hobby known to man (in my opinion).

The games you mentioned are playable on two player panels, and some 4 player games even have two player versions. Those are the ones I use on my cabinet where possible. In the instances where only 4 player versions of the game exist, I am just limited to 2 players and, in some cases, certain characters.

Now to the question of 4 player vs. 2 player...

If you really like a lot of 4 player games and you think that you will have 3 other people over a lot who enjoy these games, I would recommend building what you really want (a 4 player panel) now. You'll be happier with the finished product and have less work to do in the long run.

Best of luck to you!

pointdablame · « **Reply #3 on:** June 17, 2003, 05:48:18 pm »

Thanks for the replies and the welcoming.

I don't think I'd have 3 people over at the same time all too often, which as stupid as it sounds, is something I didn't even think to consider.

I guess I just got the thought in my head and ran with it.

It does bug me, however, that I'd be stuck with certain characters. Especially in TMNT, Simpsons, X-Men, I'd like to be able to pick who I'd want to pick. I'll have to check later to see if they have 2p versions (at work now) Or if anyone knows off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it if you could tell me.

Also, if I went with a 2p CP and was still bothered by the character situation, is there a way to wire up 4player buttons/coin buttons and only 2 sets of controls. So that way, I could hit the 3 or 4 player start button to play as those characters, but have the buttons correspond to the 1p and 2p controls. My gut feeling is no, since there would be duplicate sets of commands for players 1/3 and 2/4, but you guys may know.

jakejake28 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 17, 2003, 05:53:32 pm »

as to the question about wiring a 3p and 4p from the 1p and 2p controls, physically you can. just wire each button to two sets of controls, and use the ctrlr files to customize. but, i dunno if the MAME software allows that. you could try putting in a switch that lets you select which current to follow...

RacerX · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2003, 05:56:52 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on June 17, 2003, 05:48:18 pm

Thanks for the replies and the welcoming.

I don't think I'd have 3 people over at the same time all too often, which as stupid as it sounds, is something I didn't even think to consider. I guess I just got the thought in my head and ran with it.

It does bug me, however, that I'd be stuck with certain characters. Especially in TMNT, Simpsons, X-Men, I'd like to be able to pick who I'd want to pick. I'll have to check later to see if they have 2p versions (at work now) Or if anyone knows off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it if you could tell me.

Also, if I went with a 2p CP and was still bothered by the character situation, is there a way to wire up 4player buttons/coin buttons and only 2 sets of controls. So that way, I could hit the 3 or 4 player start button to play as those characters, but have the buttons correspond to the 1p and 2p controls. My gut feeling is no, since there would be duplicate sets of commands for players 1/3 and 2/4, but you guys may know.

Hmmmm... Well, you could wire up the controls for two different controllers to two barrier strips, then have a toggle switch wired between them that you could flip back and forth depending on whether you wanted the control to act as Player 1 or Player 3, etc. That would work. There may be an easier way, though. Perhaps one of our resident geniuses will chime in here.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:03:07 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on June 17, 2003, 05:48:18 pm

Also, if I went with a 2p CP and was still bothered by the character situation, is there a way to wire up 4player buttons/coin buttons and only 2 sets of controls. So that way, I could hit the 3 or 4 player start button to play as those characters, but have the buttons correspond to the 1p and 2p controls. My gut feeling is no, since there would be duplicate sets of commands for players 1/3 and 2/4, but you guys may know.

That will work, but you can't easily map all the combinations - For example, you could map Character 1 and Character 3 to use P1 controls, and Character 2 and Character 4 to use P2 controls, and you could play as Character 1 or 3 and fight against 2 or 4, but you couldn't have Character 1 fight character 3 . . .

If that made sense . . .

If you think you like the 4 player games, and you like the ability to choose characters, I would build a four player cabinet to start with. You can do this with a KeyWiz so no additional encoder cost. So it's just an additional $20 for two more joysticks and eight dollars for additonal buttons.

Post back if you need to know how to make the KeyWiz work for four players, as it's a little complicated, but possible.

radiator · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:05:18 pm »

how about setting up MAME so that the controls for player 1 and 3 are the same (or 2 and 4) then setup 4 shifted keys (if you've got an IPAC) for player 2/4 start/coin...

ie, to control player 3 using player 1 controls:

run the game
hold down your shift key and press player 3 insert coin
hold shift again and press player 3 start

that way, with the shifted keys, you couldn't accidently press player 1 coin/start and player 3 coin/start at the same time and end up controlling 2 characters (which, actuall could be a good laugh!)

anyone see any probs with this?

[EDIT]
wow Tiger-Heli, you answered my question before i even typed it!!

scrap the above idea then...

pointdablame · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:08:30 pm »

I definitely have to read more about keyboard encoders before I jump into this, but the KeyWiz would replace the Ipac or the like, correct? Also, is there an Ipac with enough inputs for a 4p CP, or would I need multiple ones?

I think I'm going to go with a 4p CP simply because in reading my posts, it's obvious that I'm leaning that way. I might as well build what I want even if it turns out that I may not use it all too often. I'm in this for the enjoyment, so costs be damned... at least in this instance

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:18:57 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on June 17, 2003, 06:08:30 pm

I definitely have to read more about keyboard encoders before I jump into this, but the KeyWiz would replace the Ipac or the like, correct? Also, is there an Ipac with enough inputs for a 4p CP, or would I need multiple ones?

I think I'm going to go with a 4p CP simply because in reading my posts, it's obvious that I'm leaning that way. I might as well build what I want even if it turns out that I may not use it all too often. I'm in this for the enjoyment, so costs be damned... at least in this instance

I-PAC/4 or MK64 will handle 4-player, but they're around $65. KeyWiz will do it for $33 but you have to make some compromises. Manana if you need more info.

pointdablame · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:30:16 pm »

what kind of "compromises" will I have to make if I use a KeyWiz. Also, is it any harder/easier to work with compared to the others?

skirge66 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:40:01 pm »

trouble signing into the forum at home? I was having alot of trouble after I rebuilt my computer, all it ended up being was enabling cookies from this site...fixed everything.

as far as 2 plr / 4plr goes, I personally don't like the idea of having to change out my cp all the time for various games as I have 2 bum knees, and a bad back...sovineers of military service. If you work on a tight budget, make the budget fit a 4 plr cp, better to have the 4 plr available when you do want it...it won't stop you from playing 2 plr games, but if you make a 2 plr panel, you are going to feel like quite the schmuck when you do have friends over and want to play thos 4 plr games and can't.

IIOIOOIOO · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2003, 07:42:13 pm »

Another good alternative I've been considering myself is mouting a small USB hub fush to the front of the cabinet, underneat the CP. That way, you can have a nice clean 2player CP (most of the 4p or uber panels look either busy or sloppy) and can plug a couple of cheapy gamepads in for player 3/4 should you happen to have people around. Going 4p with no specific intention in mind pointlessly doubles the cost of your CP, and limits the number of cabinet options you have if you're not building from scratch. Also, I've seen a lot of people who jammed a 4 player CP onto the front of a 19" arcade cabinet, and they just look plain silly.

spectre · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2003, 10:51:31 pm »

or you could just use the 2 player versions of simpsons, turtles, xmen ect...
yes mame has them...

SirPoonga · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2003, 11:01:58 pm »

Ok, my usual speech about this.

You sure you want 4 players? You think you can play with 4 people with the few 4 player games on a regular basis?

My solution, 2 player cp but 2 usb ports for gamepads just in case.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2003, 11:22:09 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on June 17, 2003, 06:30:16 pm

what kind of "compromises" will I have to make if I use a KeyWiz. Also, is it any harder/easier to work with compared to the others?

Easy questions first:

Well, first IIOOIIOO's (sp?) solution above is simpler, if that is acceptable to you. Personally, I think whoever uses the gamepad's will end up feeling at a disadvantage to the person with the "real" controls. An option (just thought of) would be to mount a four port USB hub below the panel and use 4 gamepads for the 4-player, 4-person games so everyone is on an even keel, so to speak.

Harder\easier to use: I think the KeyWiz is a little simpler and the software is a little better, but they're all basically the same as far as functionality and hook-up's. I can walk you through it. Main advantage is the KeyWiz will support 4-player, 3-button games and the I-PAC will only support 4-player 2-button games. NOTE: This covers everything in MAME except about 4 games, mainly Dungeons and Dragons series, which are four player, four button.

Compromises - Will take three full posts to get you all the details, but first there are some things to decide:

If you only want to support four player three button games - (not Street Fighter or classics) then you have less compromises, basically, you end up re-mapping the encoder away from the default codeset, re-mapping MAME away from the default codeset, and doing some funky stuff to support select, escape, and pause buttons (and note I am adding six additional inputs to each encoder without using shift keys).

If you want to support Street Fighter style games, then you end up with shared inputs to throw into the mix. So for example, you have six buttons for Player 1, but TMNT only needs 3 (2?) of them, so you can map buttons 4, 5, and 6, to be Player 4 Up, Down, and Button 3. Likewise, Player 2 Buttons 4, 5, and 6 become Player 4 Right, Left, and Player 3 button 3.

I would recommend putting Player 1 and 2 in the middle for SF games. Now for TMNT, you can either have Player 3 and 4 on the outsides, or re-map MAME and have a standard 1, 2, 3, 4, but either way, the middle players can "mess up" Player 3 Button 3 and Player 4 joysticks controls by using the buttons above them. So depending on how "honest" your friends are, will determine how you set the player positions up.

(You also could probably rig some kind of hidden rotary switch to disable buttons 4-6 (on the panel) for TMNT style games, but now we're really complicating things).

Anyway, give some thought to what you want out of the panel, and then post back and I'll walk you through it. Tomorrow for sure this time (It's late here . . . )

Odonadon · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2003, 11:34:42 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on June 17, 2003, 05:22:00 pm

First of all, hello, my name is Pete. I'm looking to build my first MAME cabinet very soon, so expect a lot of questions from me. I've been reading this for a while now, and after some trouble signing in to the forum (still having trouble with my comp at home using XP) I figured I'd give ya my first question.

I am leaning towards building an Ultimate Arcade II because I like the look of the larger CP, but I may possibly buy an old cabinet to use. Either way, some of my favorite arcade games are 4 player games such as the Simpsons and the X-men beat-em-up etc.

My question is: If I am thinking on a budget, should I start off with a 2 player CP and eventually build a 4 player in the future? Or just go for a 4player now? Also, are the games mentioned above playable with only a 2player CP? I'd really like all the opinions I can get, and you guys seem very knowledgeable. Thanks.

I say build a 2 player CP, and stick with that. I HATE these 4 player panels with trackballs, this, that, and whatever. Stick with two joysticks, and however many buttons you feel is necessary. Keeps it looking more classical (in my opinion), and therefore MUCH nicer. You can always hook a USB gamepad up to it so buddies #3 and #4 can play along with you. I don't think there are enough 4 player games to warrant the ugliness of the 4 player CP.

Edit: TMNT, Simpsons, and X-men (for example) have 2 player versions where you can choose your player - as opposed to picking that player's corresponding joystick.

Odonadon

The cranky hermit · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2003, 12:06:49 am »

You can select your character in all versions of X-Men, with the exception of the six-player version. And the six-player version's been removed from MAME, so you don't have to worry about that.

Lilwolf · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:55:17 am »

I use 4 player more then 2 player... really! Why? My wife doesn't play at all... so its me... or a social thing... and we usually invite more then one person over... mostly kids.

Trouble you will have later is having enough inputs into your keyboard encoder. So adding anything else later will feel like a hack. Either a second encoder (and you can't always configure the second one from the machine without removing the first)... or a different hack... Like the usb solution. Remember you CAN hack these into real controls.

But if you are pretty sure you will do it someday... go for a MK64 encoder or a IPac4. You won't be sorry... even if you don't use the extra settings right away.

Next...

4 players on a normal cab is nearly imposible. I have a gauntlet cab myself... and it works well! But you need to replace the control panel (in my opinion) because there isn't enought space for 4 players with players 1 and 2 with 6 buttons... but enought for 4 each. And 4 player control panels kinda suck for 1 or 2 players... You have to configure all 2 player games to use the middle two joysticks... So anyway, consider a hot swap control panel solution.... then you can add a 2 player now, and a 4 player later, and a SW yoke, and a few steering wheels... and a 720 controller... and a 4way... DEFENDER.... sorry...getting excited...

good luck

nighthawk2099 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2003, 10:37:57 am »

well.... the other option is to run Simpson or TMNT that are not US (ie.. Japan or World versions) as they are set as 2 players which allows for picking who you want to be... just a note.....

Aceldamor · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2003, 10:59:08 am »

Welcome to the forum!!

Personally I went with a 2p control panel with the ability to run virtually any 2p game (except marble madness).

I originally was going to build a 4p, but realized that I will never have 4 people at my house playin' games......

meta87 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2003, 12:29:46 pm »

Man you must all be losers

Don't you have 4 people during parties and things?

BillyJack · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2003, 12:43:29 pm »

"First of all, it's 'par-tay', and second, we wouldn't 'par-tay' with you if you were the last dad on Earth."

- Bart Simpson

SirPoonga · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:08:13 pm »

Quote from: Aceldamor on June 18, 2003, 10:59:08 am

Welcome to the forum!!

Personally I went with a 2p control panel with the ability to run virtually any 2p game (except marble madness).

I originally was going to build a 4p, but realized that I will never have 4 people at my house playin' games......

It's not that, it't the lacky of 4 player games. There isn't many good 4 player games in mame. You aren't going to be playing those games over and over and over with 4 people. Only when those 4 people are over.

pointdablame · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:13:16 pm »

Thank you all so much for the info.

When I really thought about it last night, I came to the conclusion that I really won't have 4 ppl over AND interested in playing the games at one time. For the most part, it'll probably be just me, or me and my gf, with an occassional group over.

So with that in mind, I think I'm going to go with a 2p CP and the USB hub like some of you had mentioned. I had already planned to use a USB hub so that I could have only one USB going into my computer, but having it mounted flush to the cabinet is an EXCELLENT idea.

I have some questions on my setup now. With this new plan I'm thinking 7 buttons per person plus a joystick, 1 4-way, trackball, and a start/coin for each. I just need help on how many misc buttons most ppl use. Assume I'm not using a shift function (but I may), what would I need? I figure a few buttons for the 4-way, a few for the trackball, and 4 or so for MAME controls (exit, pause, tab, ESC) Am I missing anything?

And one last question for now (I said I'd have a lot of questions

) How much would I really be losing by not getting a spinner? How many games use it? Would you guys give yours up if you had the chance? I'm looking for personal opinions here, so I can get an idea if I'd be losing precious gameplay or not.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:33:06 pm »

>Assume I'm not using a shift function (but I may), what would I need?

That's all personal opinion - what you have sounds good. You can also use the buttons that are next to player 1 or Player 2, assuming the reach isn't inconvenient.

> I figure a few buttons for the 4-way, a few for the trackball, and 4 or so for MAME controls (exit, pause, tab, ESC) Am I missing anything?

Steering wheel, Tron Stick, Rotary joys, Star Wars yoke, Motorcycle handlebars for Hang-on, SeaDoo thingy for that waverunner game, fire hoses for that other game, hacked Nordictrac for Alpine Ski . . . just kidding, u meant admin button-wise. Well ESC and exit are the same thing :-). Pause is good. I wouldn't want Tab on the panel. Actually, I just want Escape and Pause on the panel. Get a USB keyboard to plug into your hub and use that to do set-up functions. Some people like Tilde (Video/audio settings), Enter (front-end navigation), F2 or F3 (Service Mode and Reset), F11 Toggle speed throttle, and F8 or F9 increase frameskip. I wouldn't, but if it matters to you.

>And one last question for now (I said I'd have a lot of questions

) >How much would I really be losing by not getting a spinner? How >many games use it? Would you guys give yours up if you had the >chance? I'm looking for personal opinions here, so I can get an idea >if I'd be losing precious gameplay or not.

Tons, Tons, Don't have one yet, but wouldn't give it up. Actually, I'm looking forward to having two of them. Let's see, Tempest, Arkanoid, Tron, Discs of Tron, Blasteroids, Older Driving games (Csprint), Somewhat newer driving games (Outrun, Outrunners, Roadblasters, poor mans Ikari Warriors, probably tons of others, but those are the biggies on my list.

pointdablame · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:49:33 pm »

haha, Tiger-Heli, yeah I meant ENTER, ESC, pause, and tab. I think I'll go with those 4 and use the keyboard for the rest like you suggested. Maybe not tab... I'll see.

I'd still like opinions on a spinner. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say Tiger is in the "get one" column

I do like my Arkanoid, so I think I'll have to look into one.

skirge66 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2003, 10:39:44 pm »

hmmm...spinner I put up there with trackball, as I just gotta have one, they are both unique controls for great games that just aren't the same without them...tempest with arrow buttons or a joystic? bleah!

Odonadon · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2003, 11:46:40 pm »

I'd have to vote a big "no" to spinners and/or trackballs. Correction: a big "no" goes to trackballs, simply because they take up a lot of room and are so friggin ugly

I consider my cab a peice of furniture, and I hate the way oversized CPs look to accomodate trackballs, or a CP where everything is jammed close together. A spinner is nice and small, so I can foresee putting that in my cab in the future. But what the heck are you going to use the trackball for (besides Golden Pee 98)?

Odonadon

pointdablame · « **Reply #29 on:** June 19, 2003, 12:19:40 am »

Well I'm definitely going to use a trackball, that's for sure. I like the way they look, especially lit. And that way, I don't need to use a mouse to navigate through windows (I plan on running more emulators than just MAME)

Plus, Golden Tee is pretty fun, and doesn't Marble Madness use the trackball?? I mean, that's worth the price of admission right there.

Wade · « **Reply #30 on:** June 19, 2003, 10:44:44 am »

I used to want a trackball and spinner. I have a trackball now but never installed a spinner. There aren't many games I really like to play that use a spinner.

The trackball, on the other hand: Missile Command, Centipede, and Marble Madness. It's worth it for those 3 games alone.

Though when a large group is over, simple multiplayer trackball games like bowling, horseshoes, etc. go over pretty well. It doesn't take a real arcade buff to be able to play these games and be competitive.

Wade

rampy · « **Reply #31 on:** June 19, 2003, 10:54:53 am »

Quote from: Odonadon on June 18, 2003, 11:46:40 pm

But what the heck are you going to use the trackball for (besides Golden Pee 98)?

Odonadon

Well it does make navigation in windoze when working on yoru cab easier/convenient...

Also the ladies like the centipede, man...

For Mrs. (or miss) Odonadon's sake condsider a t-ball! (just kidding--> I get where you are coming from... and visually prefer the simplicity of just sticks and buttons on a cabinet... but my desire to have everything, and constant need to tinker/upgrade had me adding trackballs/spinners and soon removable star wars yoke...
)
Rampy

Odonadon · « **Reply #32 on:** June 20, 2003, 12:39:11 am »

Quote from: rampy on June 19, 2003, 10:54:53 am

Quote from: Odonadon on June 18, 2003, 11:46:40 pm
But what the heck are you going to use the trackball for (besides Golden Pee 98)?

Odonadon

Well it does make navigation in windoze when working on yoru cab easier/convenient...

Also the ladies like the centipede, man...

For Mrs. (or miss) Odonadon's sake condsider a t-ball! (just kidding--> I get where you are coming from... and visually prefer the simplicity of just sticks and buttons on a cabinet... but my desire to have everything, and constant need to tinker/upgrade had me adding trackballs/spinners and soon removable star wars yoke...
)
Rampy

No no, that's where Mousekeys (accessibility options) come into play. I only have a keyboard hooked into my cab

Besides, Miss O - or Mizzo as I call her - prefers the Street Fighters and the Aero Fighters. There's no love of centipede in my house. And that's just because of the trackball. Okay, I'm kidding about that

Plus, the ladies prefer the joysticks.

I'll boo myself for that one.

Odonadon

tritonarcade · « **Reply #33 on:** June 21, 2003, 08:51:19 am »

Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 17, 2003, 11:22:09 pm

Main advantage is the KeyWiz will support 4-player, 3-button games and the I-PAC will only support 4-player 2-button games. NOTE: This covers everything in MAME except about 4 games, mainly Dungeons and Dragons series, which are four player, four button.

Is this really true? I thought the I-PAC supported up to 8 buttons, even on player 3 and 4?

jakejake28 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 21, 2003, 10:56:34 am »

no, ipac supports 4-p 8 button controls. dunno why you need it, maybe for psx emulation and mahjong, but it does.


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