Tempest: who would be interested in a raster version?

[Ummon]

There are several PC-type versions of Tempest. But what about an old-style, 8-bit, raster-style version? What would you think of this?

[ChadTower]

Doesn't MAME already run the actual game as raster?

[SavannahLion]

Doesn't MAME already run the actual game as raster?

Last I checked. IMHO, some of the allure of the game is lost when it's run as raster. Yeah, the PC versions are pretty nice, I'm particularly fond of Interplay's version, but when it comes to the original, I tend to like it as the game was originally presented.

Just something about knowing you're looking and playing with technology that represented a different mindset.

[RayB]

Depends what you mean by raster. Geometry Wars 2 (Xbox 360) on a High-Def tv looks absolutely stunning with its perfectly straight, smooth glowing lines. If your definition of raster is low-res and pixellated, then no, I'm not interested.

[Ummon]

I mean a solid-object type game like Pac-Man, etc (this would mean the 'boards' would appear solid) but with exactly the same behavior. I don't like the PC ones because the graphics aren't 80s. I like the original a lot, yet I think a raster version could look really cool, though color choice for objects and such will be important. I have an inclination to ask someone to create one.

[RayB]

and how would it differ at all from Tempest 2000 ?

[SavannahLion]

I have an inclination to ask someone to create one.

I have heard this line many many times in the past. GTP was a direct result of just such a discussion. 

Sorry, that was kind of mean. Seriously though, nice thought and all, but uh... not interested. I'd probably be more interested in converted CRT's or direct connect HD LCD solutions. If I want Tempest->Raster, I'll just break out my other copies and install them.

[Texasmame]

Do you mean like the proto 2600 Tempest look?

[Ummon]

I have an inclination to ask someone to create one.

I have heard this line many many times in the past. GTP was a direct result of just such a discussion. 

Sorry, that was kind of mean. Seriously though, nice thought and all, but uh... not interested. I'd probably be more interested in converted CRT's or direct connect HD LCD solutions. If I want Tempest->Raster, I'll just break out my other copies and install them.

Not familiar. No, I meant someone in the community. Never know.

and how would it differ at all from Tempest 2000 ?

Several ways. The crab craft would actually move like in the real game, vs just rocking side to side as it moves either way. Also, it wouldn't use PC graphics. And it would be coded at something like 224x256 resolution, though of course scalable. At the very least, it could be a candidate for Misfitmame.

Do you mean like the proto 2600 Tempest look?

Not really. Definitely something more complex, perhaps not 8-bit but say something in the vein of '82-83 arcade games.

Tempest is essentially like a negative. A raster version would color the tubes of a board with a thin, black or other colored line delineating them. As well, all the objects would be colored in and detailed. An analogy would be the difference between the ship in Cosmic Chasm and the ship in Xevious or Gyruss. Fire, enemy fire, and explosions would have a similar difference.

Probably the easiest way to think about it is a sort of isometric vertical shooter that's Tempest-themed.

[clok]

I would like to se sombody make MAME tempest control ok with a stick (how, I have no idea) tempest 2000 worked ok with the pad, so I would think you could do that with original. Or am i so out of date and its been done?

[RayB]

224x256 resolution and "thin lines" are mutually exclusive.

[Will Repair]

If you could convert the old arcade games, Asteroids, Tempest, Star Wars, Tank, the ones with X-Y monitors to raster scan I think you could make a mint.  I've had two calls within the fortnight about fixing these games with a bad monitor.

[Ummon]

224x256 resolution and "thin lines" are mutually exclusive.

What?

If you could convert the old arcade games, Asteroids, Tempest, Star Wars, Tank, the ones with X-Y monitors to raster scan I think you could make a mint.  I've had two calls within the fortnight about fixing these games with a bad monitor.

Might be something you switch on the game board, because a few years ago I saw a STUN Runner cab running Star Wars on a CGA raster monitor.


Anyways, I need to get askin somebody on this.

[Xiaou2]

Have you played Juno Nemesis?   Thats a raster tempest clone..

[Ummon]

That's a PC graphics game.

[SavannahLion]

224x256 resolution and "thin lines" are mutually exclusive.

What?

What he means is, there is no way you're going to create a raster game at that resolution and convincingly make it appear the same as the vector version. In all honesty, if I saw a Wannabe-Tempest running at that resolution, I would just snicker and keep moving.

If you could convert the old arcade games, Asteroids, Tempest, Star Wars, Tank, the ones with X-Y monitors to raster scan I think you could make a mint.  I've had two calls within the fortnight about fixing these games with a bad monitor.

Might be something you switch on the game board, because a few years ago I saw a STUN Runner cab running Star Wars on a CGA raster monitor.

Uh.. there might be some minor confusion there.

[ChadTower]

Uh.. there might be some minor confusion there.

Could have been running it with MAME.  Or longshot the Gamecube version.  That one actually isn't so bad if you can deal with vector-rasters.

[Ummon]

224x256 resolution and "thin lines" are mutually exclusive.

What?

What he means is, there is no way you're going to create a raster game at that resolution and convincingly make it appear the same as the vector version. In all honesty, if I saw a Wannabe-Tempest running at that resolution, I would just snicker and keep moving.

I think you're totally not getting it. This reminds me of the time I was talking with someone about the ugliness of the shape of an object and I referenced the look a cover gave to it and they apparently thought of the texture, etc, of the cover rather than the overall appearance it gave.

If you could convert the old arcade games, Asteroids, Tempest, Star Wars, Tank, the ones with X-Y monitors to raster scan I think you could make a mint.  I've had two calls within the fortnight about fixing these games with a bad monitor.

Might be something you switch on the game board, because a few years ago I saw a STUN Runner cab running Star Wars on a CGA raster monitor.

Uh.. there might be some minor confusion there.

How so?

Uh.. there might be some minor confusion there.

Could have been running it with MAME.  Or longshot the Gamecube version.  That one actually isn't so bad if you can deal with vector-rasters.

I dunno. This was in a large arcade.

[SavannahLion]

Oi.

224x256 resolution and "thin lines" are mutually exclusive.

What?

What he means is, there is no way you're going to create a raster game at that resolution and convincingly make it appear the same as the vector version. In all honesty, if I saw a Wannabe-Tempest running at that resolution, I would just snicker and keep moving.

I think you're totally not getting it. This reminds me of the time I was talking with someone about the ugliness of the shape of an object and I referenced the look a cover gave to it and they apparently thought of the texture, etc, of the cover rather than the overall appearance it gave.

No, I'm getting it alright. You're trying to attach too much.. what? Love? Desire? Whatever to this idea of yours. Seriously, think about it. You're trying to take a classic game that leverages a dying display technique and recreate it with using readily available 80's style raster hardware. In theory, it's a great idea really. In practice... well, like the famous Jurassic Park line, "so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."

Games like (for example) Tempest isn't strictly a gameplay experience. Each component that makes up the game, the controls, the X-Y monitor, the noise/music, etc all come together to create a unique experience. Take one of those elements away and you lose a part of the game that's integral to the total gaming experience. How many arcade to console ports/translations end up being a shady copy of the original arcade experience? What existed on the arcade version that was lost on the console port?

So, can a Tempest game be created that runs on a 224x256 raster? Yes. Should a Tempest game be created that runs on a 224x256 raster? 

[ChadTower]

Might be something you switch on the game board, because a few years ago I saw a STUN Runner cab running Star Wars on a CGA raster monitor.

Uh.. there might be some minor confusion there.

How so?

There is no raster mode for the vector Star Wars game.  It runs in vectors, purely, and with no raster generation whatsoever.  That is where the confusion must be.  You either saw something else or it was running an emulator/alternate version that was never licensed for arcade use.

[RayB]

... or he saw the Sega version?
what ever......

[Ummon]

I dunno. It was Star Wars on a raster monitor is all I know.


Savannah: I'm talking about coding different graphics, though. Think of it like the difference between Asteroids and Blasteroids.

[Ummon]

Bumping this:

Savannah: I'm talking about coding different graphics, though. Think of it like the difference between Asteroids and Blasteroids.

[bungy]

You can convert an original Tempest to raster with this: http://www.vectorvga.com/, but it has to be a 800x600 monitor.
The converter will will also work for some other Atari vector games, unfortunately it doesn't work for Star Wars.

[saint]

The Youtube video did not look that good... 

[Kevin Mullins]

The Youtube video did not look that good... 

Nah, it'll never look 100% vector.
But the fact that it's running off original game hardware is imprressive.
Although the him haw is over the vector monitors themselves and I have yet to see one that wasn't repairable.
 
(especially at the price of that little converter box)

[saint]

Oh yes, I find the tech impressive. And I'd rather play that way than not at all when vector monitors are gone.

[Ummon]

I think ya all missed this part. Then and now:

Think of it like the difference between Asteroids and Blasteroids.

Compare the two, and then imagine an analogous circumstance with Tempest.

[taylormadelv]

The Youtube video did not look that good... 

That video doesn't look better than Tempest on Mame IMO. If you can find a very bright VGA CRT, the smoked glass on the Tempest cabinet makes it tought to tell the difference, unless you do a side by side.
However, that widgit would save the trouble of maming a Tempest cabinet "back to life".

[SavannahLion]

I think ya all missed this part. Then and now:

Think of it like the difference between Asteroids and Blasteroids.

Compare the two, and then imagine an analogous circumstance with Tempest.

Not really. Tempest is Tempest. "Updating" the game doesn't change the fact you lose something integral to the allure of the original. Yeah, I get that Blasteroids is an update to Asteroids. But the point is, I walk up to the either machine and the collective experience is different. They are simply not the same, probably why the developers simply went with a different name instead of just calling it Asteroids 2 or something. Asteroids vs Blasteroids is like Old Coke vs New Coke.

[CrazyKongFan]

That youtube video looks pretty good, but the one I saw at Funspot looked horrible on their Space Duel. I think they were using a flat panel monitor, maybe it would have looked better on a CRT. It was really dim and hard to see on an LCD.

[SavannahLion]

Wow, I wrote pretty bad there. Didn't I?

[Ummon]

Wow, I wrote pretty bad there. Didn't I?

Mm-mm, looks fine to me. I disagree with the coke analogy. Coke is just Coke. New coke was a stab at pepsi, which always blew anyways. I don't favor one over the other, regarding Asteroids and Blasteroids. They're different games to me, because they have a bit different game play, and both or interesting.

However, in the case of Tempest, I think it would be a revolutionary difference, similar to the difference bewteen DK and Congo Bongo. Both are cool. The latter has a greater dimensionality to it.

I think people are missing this basic aspect.

[DJ_Izumi]

Man, you guys need to just download Tempest Evolved on XBLA.

[nox771]

Someone else on the forum mentioned Typhoon 2001, free for PC, but it looks like it could map into a cab.  Sort of geometry wars meets tempest, pretty fun.

[Ummon]

The problem with both of those is they look 3D/GL . The xbla update version looks interesting - but I'm talking 8-bit raster.

[SavannahLion]

Not to be an ass but....

I think ya all missed this part. Then and now:

Think of it like the difference between Asteroids and Blasteroids.

Compare the two, and then imagine an analogous circumstance with Tempest.

Then you write:

[snip] I don't favor one over the other, regarding Asteroids and Blasteroids. They're different games to me, because they have a bit different game play, and both or interesting.

However, in the case of Tempest, I think it would be a revolutionary difference, similar to the difference bewteen DK and Congo Bongo. Both are cool. The latter has a greater dimensionality to it.

[snip]

Okay....

Look Ummon, it's pretty clear you have strong feelings about this idea of yours. Anything I write is really going to have zip on anything you think. So do this, draft your idea and solidify them into a beta and we'll see you in three to six months. Coke and New Coke, Asteroids and Blasteroids, Donkey Kong and Congo Bongo (Nintendo and SEGA?) whatever. Just go make it and show us how it turns out.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel that strongly about Tempest. 

[Level42]

I would like to se sombody make MAME tempest control ok with a stick (how, I have no idea) tempest 2000 worked ok with the pad, so I would think you could do that with original. Or am i so out of date and its been done?

Sure, take out the vector monitor, take out the spinner and tell me, what is left of Tempest ? 

I'd rather NOT play the game than with a raster monitor (let alone any LCD ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---) and a joystick.  It's like Centipede with a joystick (and that actually _IS_ supported by the original hardware..)

[RayB]

Any of you played Jeff Minter's Space Giraffe (Xbox Live indie game)?  It's terrible. Tempest 2000 was the apex of the genre.

[ChadTower]

That youtube video looks pretty good, but the one I saw at Funspot looked horrible on their Space Duel. I think they were using a flat panel monitor, maybe it would have looked better on a CRT. It was really dim and hard to see on an LCD.

I saw that too.  It actually wasn't so bad in terms of the vectors.  Sitting next to a Major Havoc certainly made it look weak by by comparison but the display itself was okay.  The problem was black level.  A vector game looks really bad when the "undrawn" portion of the screen is grey.

That said, the adaptor running on original hardware is the worst of both worlds.  You took away the vector monitor - but kept the original hard to keep running game boards.  What's the point?  Sure, if it keeps some vectors running that would otherwise be parted out, that's great.  But the better nonvector solution is, I really hate to say, MAME.