U360: strange behavior

[Ummon]

I thought I'd start a thread separate from mrclean.

I'm having this problem with my U360 that's hooked up. (I have two, but only one is in the panel right now.) I've experienced this before using a gamepad: when the analog sticks are active, and they are too sensitive or won't center or something, there's this perpetual downward scrolling in games lists, and ships fly down all the time.

Now, this is mainly happening in Advancemame. (It also seems to make it run slow.) It constantly scrolls down the TAB list, and is giving really weird behavior in Mspac. Background: I'm running Advancemame via MaLa, and have the Ultrastik plug-in.

So in Mspac, I assumed the 4-way map was being applied. The other night it was fine, but tonight at game start mspac wouldn't go down....or up. Then she would.....then during a run from ghosts, I'd go left or right and she'd go down. At the same time, it seemed like the controls were being fought. I uninstalled the plug-in and delete the files. Same behavior. I look in Ultramap, and things seem fine, the stick seems to be 'centered', though the sight is a little lower-left of center. I changed to the 4-way no sticky map and same behavior.


Seems fine in Mame32 GUI. Also, in-game there's no constant downward flying motion - but it sometimes seems like it's fighting me. For example in 1943, just now, this seemed the case. I unplugged, re-plugged, re-scanned the stick and no change in behavior.

[arzoo]

I'm not sure if this is the same issue, but my u360 caused MaLa to scroll down (and in game also). For me it turned out to be some slop with the centering. I ended up altering the maps so that there was a larger dead zone in the center.

[paulscade]

I'm not sure if this will fix it... but there's a "calibrate" button under "games controllers" in the control panel.  The calibrate routine has you move the stick to all positions (i.e. just move it around in a circle a few times)... then it adjusts for centering.

[TheShanMan]

I've been discussing bad calibration with Andy, and you do NOT want to use the windows calibration tool. The joysticks self-calibrate at startup as long as the sticks are untouched (centered). Mine don't show very good calibration. The message I got from Andy today said to go back to the windows calibration tool and click "reset" to remove any windows calibration. I'm hoping that's all it takes for me. I should know later today so I'll try to remember to report back here if it does work.

[blind_dado]

there is also this handy utility that will delete all joystick calibration data in Windows. 

http://www.wingmanteam.com/latest_software/gadgets.htm#Clear%20Calibration%20Utility:

You definetly do not want to calibrate U360s in Windows.

[nuka1195]

http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html

I don't see where this page says not to calibrate, if it does maybe it should be more pronounced. it's a little misleading to have the windows control panel displayed and not calibrate.

I'm pretty sure we calibrated my friends and have not had any issues.

[blind_dado]

Uhm, isn't it pretty clearly stated on the Ultimarc page you listed:

Calibration
The UltraStik 360 requires no calibration. In Analog mode, the setting of "dead zone" in MAME and also any calibration of gamepad joysticks in Windows, will affect the stick, so if you get any strange behaviour, check these are set to default settings.

[Ginsu Victim]

Uhm, isn't it pretty clearly stated on the Ultimarc page you listed:

Calibration
The UltraStik 360 requires no calibration. In Analog mode, the setting of "dead zone" in MAME and also any calibration of gamepad joysticks in Windows, will affect the stick, so if you get any strange behaviour, check these are set to default settings.

Yep. I was well aware of this before I even bought the stick (reading everything first sure helps, nuka). It's right there, plain as day.

[nuka1195]

uhm, i see it now way at the bottom, not up where the images were.

if it's a major problem, then a mention up where the image state do not calibrate, may be clearer.

And as i stated we're not having any issues, though i can't swear we calibrated. and i very well may have read it at the time, but a quick look at the page i missed it and stated so. did not say it wasn't i said i didn'y see it.

[Ginsu Victim]

Not what I was saying. I was saying you should always read all of the instructions first.

[blind_dado]

I agree that would be better if it simply said: "Do not calibrate the U360 using the Windows Game Controller Control Panel.  It could mess with the operation of the U360."  But the leason I learned early on is that the instructions on both the Ultimarc site and the Groovy Game Gear site are really bad!

[Ginsu Victim]

I agree that would be better if it simply said: "Do not calibrate the U360 using the Windows Game Controller Control Panel.  It could mess with the operation of the U360."  But the leason I learned early on is that the instructions on both the Ultimarc site and the Groovy Game Gear site are really bad!

This doesn't cover it well enough?

The UltraStik 360 requires no calibration. Any calibration of gamepad joysticks in Windows, will affect the stick, so if you get any strange behaviour, check these are set to default settings.

[blind_dado]

It's a little unclear if you don't already know what's going on.  Let's break it down:

"In Analog mode..."

What's that mean?  Is this a problem only when the joystick is in analog mode?  If I just use it in 4 way or 8 way games can I calibrate it in the Windows control panel?

"...also any calibration of gamepad joysticks in Windows..."

Does that mean if I have a gamepad hooked up to my Mame cab along with the U360s that I can't use the control panel to calibrate the gamepad or else the U360 will be affected?

"...will affect the stick..."

How will the stick be affected?  Will it make it more responsive? 


What it should say is:

"The UltraStik 360 requires no calibration. You should not use the "dead zone" settings in MAME for your U360 or calibrate the U360 using the Windows Game Controller controll panel.  Doing so may adversely affect the performance of the U360.   You can continue to calibrate your non-U360 gamepads with the Windows control panel without issue."

[TheShanMan]

FWIW, resetting the windows calibration solved my problem.

You should not use the "dead zone" settings in MAME for your U360

Why do you think mame's dead zone settings shouldn't be used? I think you're wrong there. It has nothing to do with calibration of the joystick. It's only the region that MAME treats as centered. Obviously it can cause undesirable behavior if set improperly, but that doesn't mean you should set it to 0.

[blind_dado]

I have no opinion about mame's dead zone settings.  The language I quoted was directly from the Ultimarc site, so apparently Andy thinks you shouldn't use those settings.  Ask him why!

Glad you're problem is fixed.   

[TheShanMan]

I've been playing with the maps this evening (up until now I've only used mame's built in analog to digital translation). I'm experiencing the same thing Ummon and arzoo have reported. I haven't paid too much attention to it until now because I had mala's and mame's deadzone set fairly high. But I find with the maps that come with UltraMap, the dead zone barely extends beyond the slop zone. So for instance in 4 or 8 way mode, where mala's and mame's dead zone settings don't come into play, it takes FAR too little pressure to leave the dead zone (i.e. it's far too sensitive).

(For the record I have circular restrictors, and I have told ultramap that I have them - not sure how that might factor into my observations)

So I started doing what arzoo mentioned... altering the map to increase the dead zone. I almost think that for 4/8 way games EVERY little cell should be a deadzone except the outer cells (i.e. the "engaged" zone is only one small cell thick, rather than the default of 3 small cells thick).

I'm curious to know if anyone else sets up their maps like this? When I stop to think about it, it's probably more like a switch based stick anyway.

But it seems to me that the Ultimarc maps have 2 problems: 1 - They don't work well out of the box. 2 - If you settle on a customized map like I described, it gives you a perception that the maps aren't as powerful as they seem at first. A 9x9 grid makes it sound super-flexible, but if the dead zone is 7x7, then there's not a whole lot of flexibility in what you can do. For instance, I remember people mentioning tron maps where they made the corners difficult to hit. In this case, it doesn't seem that it could be made to be any harder to hit than any other position.

Anyone else have similar observations?

Now remember that I've only started to play with these maps tonight, so perhaps as I use my maps I'll change my mind and shrink the dead zone. But the fact that I've had to make this change just gives me a feeling of disappointment in the u360. It's probably just an initial reaction to the fact that I was forced to make a change to these maps when it should have worked better out of the box though. I imagine as I play with it more that disappointment will go away.

Also, I should say that I'm not ready to say I don't like the u360's. There is a lot that is very likable about them. But this illustrates what aspects of the u360's have given me a somewhat negative first impression.

[headkaze]

Changing the restrictor plate setting certainly does effect the way the mappings work. Try turning off the restrictor plate altogether.

[TheShanMan]

Do you mean set the sticks to "no restrictor" in ultramap but physically leave the restrictors on?

[headkaze]

Do you mean set the sticks to "no restrictor" in ultramap but physically leave the restrictors on?

Yeah, when I was writing my UltraStik.dll I noticed the restrictor settings in UltraMap severly screwed around with things. In my opinion the UltraMap software is quite buggy and again I remember those restrictor settings being screwy. You might want to try turning them off and on. Just another thing to try out I guess.

[AndyWarne]

The restrictor setting changes the scale factor which is applied to the raw analog output before the maps are applied and data sent out. So leaving the no-restrictor setting and installing a restrictor means the range of analog data is limited so you will only get the center portion of the map not all of the cells.
It might well be that the default maps we supply can be improved on. Feedback on this is welcome and I will change them if necessary. Likewise the instructions.
There should not be any bugs in Ultramap. There were a few in old versions.
Andy

[headkaze]

The restrictor setting changes the scale factor which is applied to the raw analog output before the maps are applied and data sent out. So leaving the no-restrictor setting and installing a restrictor means the range of analog data is limited so you will only get the center portion of the map not all of the cells.
It might well be that the default maps we supply can be improved on. Feedback on this is welcome and I will change them if necessary. Likewise the instructions.
There should not be any bugs in Ultramap. There were a few in old versions.
Andy

I probably did things in UltraMap that a regular user wouldn't since I had to test every part of my library. My main point about the restrictor thing was to try programming it a few times incase it was applied incorrectly. I did notice some issues setting this, but it could just be doing what it was supposed to I didn't have a restrictor plate at the time. Or it could have been a problem applying the restrictor setting; to be honest I remember there being a few issues with the software but I can't remember exactly what they were. I remember one was I couldn't save a map for some reason and had to remake it couple of times (something to do with the filename or something). Nothing major, I still think it's a quality product and hopefully the bugs have been ironed out. Sorry I didn't report the bugs back to you at the time I know I should have but they were only minor and nothing I considered worth bothering you about.

[Ummon]

I like the stick a lot. I did understand the statement about calibration on the Ultimarc page. However, I do remember forgetting this information and for some reason calibrating it via Windows, and forget whether that was before this issue occured. But I guess that was what caused it, because after resetting to default it's fine now. Although it only really affected Advancemame. (Also, I'm having trouble with it allowing the trackball to be used on trackball games, but this might be specific to how Advancemame handles various controls.)


Something else REALLY weird happened the other night, though. I was setting a map, and I think pressed 'download', and I got a run-time error box. Dumbly, I didn't 'snap' it. However, I noticed that when the box appeared, the whole mapper utility box underneath it had these black diagonal lines over it. (Similar to the red lines in image two, but over the whole mapper box.) Ultramap closed after I pressed 'okay', and the lines were gone when I restarted it, but when I clicked on the map menu, there was now no 4-way 45-degrees mode. (This one or the diagonals-only one work the same except that this one uses the default directions and turns them so you don't have to change the settings for each diagonal controls game after setting the map.)

So then I unplugged the stick and un-installed Ultramap. I re-plugged and re-installed and still the same deal. I restarted the computer and it's the same. The 4-way 45 degrees map is just, like, not there.

Also, there was a slight graphical error, as shown in image two. This was after the above actions, although restarting Ultramap seemed to make it go away.

I mean, I guess I could recreate the missing map. I'm just a very slight spooked that I have to.

[Ummon]

Well, I got the 4-way, 45 degrees rotated map back apparently when I re-installed the MaLa Ultrastik mapper. Cool.

[Martijn]

i just installed the sticks with hard spring and circular restrictor.
windows detects them fine, but sees them both as joystick player 1

so i see this 2 times

the test screen does look ok. al movenent and buttons are seperated

but in maximus arcade i cant move 

[Martijn]

oh found it..

http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html