To link or not to link buttons, that is the question!

[Visitor Q]

As I have stated before in some of my posts I plan on getting a layout similar to the picture attached this thread and my question is this. Does it make sense to link buttons on a control panel like this? In other words I am talking about linking button 1 player 1 to button 1 for the spinner or say the pinball buttons on the sides to other buttons up top?

I plan in using an Ipac to control this panel which gives me 28 keys but I could just go to the next step up and get the one that has 56. My thoughts where that I would rather have each button mapped to its on key press to give me the ultimate control over my panel. As this would not play so much into Mame, I think it could be used more in configuring keys for other emulators that have more buttons then the standard 6 or 7 key layout. If not that, it would give me total freedom to program any button as it’s on the panel.

Does this make sense?

Thoughts?

Thank You.

[Ginsu Victim]

Pretty much, if you have the inputs available to do it, wire everything individually. If you need to save them for other admin functions or whatever, sharing inputs is fine.

[Visitor Q]

So having them separate would make sense then in having the most control correct? I mean there is no down fall to this is there?

[Ginsu Victim]

No downfall I can think of. More overall control that way.

[Visitor Q]

Ok, thanks what I thought but I wanted to make sure by asking first.

If anyone else has anything to add about this, please do.

Thanks.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I disagree.  I think you should try to link buttons as much as you can.  That way you won't have to re-configure MAME for each new button.

So for player 1 joystick games, you would have buttons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 set in MAME.  Then for player 1 trackball games, you would already have buttons 1 and 2 set since they are linked.  Same goes for the spinner's buttons.  Same goes for the pinball buttons.

You can use the additional inputs for admin buttons, pause, exit, etc.

~ DeLuSioNaL

[Necro]

Agree with Delusional.

If you want to play comsole emu's, just get USB adapter and the appropriate controller for that emu.  The games weren't designed to be played on a arcade controller.

[Visitor Q]

I understand both sides here but in the end isn't it better to be able to pick and choose rather than not have that option at all? I mean once a game is programed in mame, it is set everytime you play it and as far as console games go it will still be nice to have the option.

I mean if the only real draw back is the first time setup of the game being played in mame it does not really seem like that big of deal. What does have my wondering is programs like CPWizard, if I will be able to displyay the buttons correctly in it.

[DaveMMR]

I understand both sides here but in the end isn't it better to be able to pick and choose rather than not have that option at all? I mean once a game is programed in mame, it is set everytime you play it and as far as console games go it will still be nice to have the option.

I mean if the only real draw back is the first time setup of the game being played in mame it does not really seem like that big of deal. What does have my wondering is programs like CPWizard, if I will be able to displyay the buttons correctly in it.

I agree with Delusional opinion for the opposite of your reasoning.  My thought is that fewer choices is better sometimes so that you don't start confusing guests with a intimidating assortment of buttons, each of which does a different thing.  Even six is too many sometimes....   

If someone were to use the wrong set of buttons, but they're linked, it'll still work and you won't have to babysit them and tell them why they can't fire in Centipede (for example). 

And no one ever reads instructions, believe me.  I can't tell you how many times guests tried to start games with the action button when the instructions clearly indicate that the start button has to be pressed.

Random Burger King icon... 

[system01]

Yeah, I agree.  Get the ipac2 and link em.  I think the only time your going to have a real problem is if you get into led buttons that need to have that active/inactive status.

And like that huge pac-man above said, when people (outsiders) sit down at the machine, they just start mashing buttons and expect everything to work.  So what if you have two active 'button1's?  Itll prolly make things easier in the long run to have some redundancy. 

Also, when you come across a certain group of games where you need to reassign inputs, itll be a bit easier then too.

[Visitor Q]

I understand both sides here but in the end isn't it better to be able to pick and choose rather than not have that option at all? I mean once a game is programed in mame, it is set everytime you play it and as far as console games go it will still be nice to have the option.

I mean if the only real draw back is the first time setup of the game being played in mame it does not really seem like that big of deal. What does have my wondering is programs like CPWizard, if I will be able to displyay the buttons correctly in it.

I agree with Delusional opinion for the opposite of your reasoning.  My thought is that fewer choices is better sometimes so that you don't start confusing guests with a intimidating assortment of buttons, each of which does a different thing.  Even six is too many sometimes....   

If someone were to use the wrong set of buttons, but they're linked, it'll still work and you won't have to babysit them and tell them why they can't fire in Centipede (for example). 

And no one ever reads instructions, believe me.  I can't tell you how many times guests tried to start games with the action button when the instructions clearly indicate that the start button has to be pressed.

Random Burger King icon... 

No I understand, when I had my Game Ex with 8 buttons for each player people had no clue when I brought it to a party but what about this...

Can't I just link the same buttons for those games in the emulator if I choose to do so?

hehehehe

Call me crazy, I like the freedom to choose but you guys do have some good points.

On another note I plan on using all Electric Ice Buttons so I am hoping to have the front end light up the buttons that are needed for game play anyway...

Not saying I have my mind set here or anything, I mean that is why posted this topic.

[Visitor Q]

Rethinking this a little from what you guys said and looking at the layout.

I can't see how I would use the buttons from player 1 1-3 at the same time I would be using the dedicated 4-way buttons unless it would be possible to squeeze 3 people in there to play a game 3 player game that only used 4-way sticks. No having the CP in front of me I am not sure if that is even possible but if it isn't they seem like safe buttons to link. I also think the spinner buttons seem safe to link as well but I can see the possibility of using the trackball buttons for us with another emulator other than Mame as they do not seem too far out of reach from player 1.

Also if I am using Electric Ice buttons and I want the buttons to light up the buttons used for a game when playing, if some of the buttons are linked, are both sets going to light up? This maybe a draw back if button 1 and 2 player 1 is lit up at the same time the two spinner buttons are. 

ps. Added a poll.

[Turnarcades]

It all depends on which buttons you link. Having flipper butons linked would not be a problem as I don't envisage a situation where you'd need both top-mounted buttons at the same time as flippers. Similarly, buttons used in conjunction with analog controls like a spinner or trackball (if you even need to mount any extra - could just use either player's original 6) could be linked fairly safely.

The one big downside I can see to linking though is that following your wiring pattern could end up confusing and troubleshooting in the event of faults could be trickier with buttons not having their own dedicated input wiring.

Whatever you choose, consider first if you really need all those extra buttons before stumping up more cash for a bigger interface or getting into wiring hell. If you're just being over-presumptious about future expansion, remember you can always upgrade interfaces at a later date if the situation ever arrives.

[Visitor Q]

I am not actually the one building or wiring the control panel but with that said, it is build to my specs.

I mean I see all the points here and again as it may seem I have already made up my mind, I have not. For me to the biggest hurdle to get over with linking buttons is once they are linked, you are stuck with it unless you rewire them. With each button being their own, the only drawback I can see is more programming but total control of what you are doing.

[DaveMMR]

I am not actually the one building or wiring the control panel but with that said, it is build to my specs.

I mean I see all the points here and again as it may seem I have already made up my mind, I have not. For me to the biggest hurdle to get over with linking buttons is once they are linked, you are stuck with it unless you rewire them. With each button being their own, the only drawback I can see is more programming but total control of what you are doing.

Did you make a test panel?  (Even if just a quick cardboard mock-up with the button locations)   If not, I highly recommend it before finalizing.  It will answer a lot of questions for you.  For starters, you may find that you don't even really need all the extra, dedicated buttons.  That would definitely make your decision easier. 

[Visitor Q]

I am not actually the one building or wiring the control panel but with that said, it is build to my specs.

I mean I see all the points here and again as it may seem I have already made up my mind, I have not. For me to the biggest hurdle to get over with linking buttons is once they are linked, you are stuck with it unless you rewire them. With each button being their own, the only drawback I can see is more programming but total control of what you are doing.

I have not, the only thing I am going off of is picture and my x-arcade that I already own.

Did you make a test panel?  (Even if just a quick cardboard mock-up with the button locations)   If not, I highly recommend it before finalizing.  It will answer a lot of questions for you.  For starters, you may find that you don't even really need all the extra, dedicated buttons.  That would definitely make your decision easier. 

[DeLuSioNal29]

I re-read this whole topic and here's my opinion on what you should do:

I think that you don't need the extra buttons for the spinner.  You can use the same # 1 and # 2 buttons from player 1.  It should still be quite comfortable.  That would solve the part about multiple buttons lighting up with the LED Blinky program.  It would be cheaper too since you don't have to buy extra E-Ice Buttons.

For the Trackball, since you are using the E-Ice T trackball which allows for three dedicated mouse buttons that are independent from the I-Pac2, you should make those three mouse buttons admin buttons.  That way they will work outside of your front end in Windows as left, middle and right mouse buttons, yet in the front end and games, they will function as whatever you program them to be as admin buttons.  Also, when you play trackball games, you can use the same # 1 and #2 buttons from player 1.  Again, it should be quite comfortable while playing trackball games so it should not be an issue.  The trackball and player 1 and 2 buttons will light up perfectly when used with the LED Blinky program.

Also, concerning the LED Blinky program, even if you didn't link the buttons, they are still "programmed" in MAME to be used in the key assignment.  As such, wouldn't LED Blinky light up both of the buttons anyway since they are both assigned to that particular button?  (Which is what you don't want to happen according to your previous post).  So regarding this issue, it would not pay to not have them linked when they will all light up anyway.

So my layout suggestion would look like the following (RED means it's lit):

Joy1  1 2 3
          4 5 6
        7
(note:  # of buttons lit depends on game of course)


 1 2 3           Trackball
 4 5 6
7


                  Spinner


 1 2 3
 4 5 6
7


Last but not least, by linking the buttons, you are "saving" those precious inputs for future expandability of buttons.  That way if you ever want to "add" a button somewhere, you can with ease.

That's my 2 cents worth.   

Good luck!

~ DeLuSioNaL

[Visitor Q]

So you are more or less saying ditch the buttons for the trackball and spinner using the buttons from player 1?

Another think to keep in mind is this; if I do go the route for each button being its own I will be using an Ipac4 on a two player CP. That will give me 56 individual controls and I am using U360s for player 1 and 2 so I will not even need keys for them. Limitation is not really and issue here in that case...

[DaveMMR]

Joy1  1 2 3
          4 5 6
        7

Heh.  I thought I was the only one with the main buttons on the top row.  So much more comfortable.

So you are more or less saying ditch the buttons for the trackball and spinner using the buttons from player 1?

Another think to keep in mind is this; if I do go the route for each button being its own I will be using an Ipac4 on a two player CP. That will give me 56 individual controls and I am using U360s for player 1 and 2 so I will not even need keys for them. Limitation is not really and issue here in that case...

He did say that but the particular mouse you're using has inputs for mouse buttons (left, right, center) so you don't need to hook them up to the iPac.  So in MAME, you can have the fire button be LEFT MOUSE and JOY BUTTON 1, for example and they'll both light up and you can use either.

And, just to save you some money, an iPac4 is overkill for a two player CP, especially considering that you are using U360's and they have 8 inputs of their own (and don't need to be hooked up to "Left", "Right", etc. on an iPac).  Just go with a simpler encoder.  You definitely will never, ever have a need for 56 inputs.  Even with an iPac2, you'll have inputs to spare.

[Visitor Q]

There are 28 buttons on the face of the control panel, each one will be lit.

Even though I am using 2 U360s, I will still need 4 key strokes for the dedicated 4-way stick.

5 Pinball Buttons and two more admin buttons not seen.

So that is 35 buttons total and 4 more for the dedicated 4-way = 39 total

Ipac2 supports 28 so even minus the 3 you say for the mouse buttons that still leaves 36.

The Ipac4 is 20 or 25 bucks more than the Ipac2. I look at it this way, if I am blowing 3 grand on this project, whats another 25 bucks at this point?  

[DaveMMR]

Even with all the input requirements I kind of meant that you can just get the harnesses for  the U360's and hook up the main 7 buttons to each one (and starts perhaps) to each one.   That takes care of 16 inputs right there.   And if you link buttons, you knock off a whole lot more buttons.    And... that's a lot of buttons.   




 

[Visitor Q]

Oh ok... I think I see what you are saying. I did not know there was such a thing, my bad.

So what you are saying is if I buy two of these:

UltraStik Button / Encoder Harness
Optional Wiring Harness for connecting keyboard encoder (output mode) or 8 buttons (input mode)

You can connect 8 buttons each to player 1 and 2 U360? Am I understanding you correctly because this would cut back on 14 key presses on my current setup here! That would be awesome!!!

[DaveMMR]

Oh ok... I think I see what you are saying. I did not know there was such a thing, my bad.

So what you are saying is if I buy two of these:

UltraStik Button / Encoder Harness
Optional Wiring Harness for connecting keyboard encoder (output mode) or 8 buttons (input mode)

You can connect 8 buttons each to player 1 and 2 U360? Am I understanding you correctly because this would cut back on 14 key presses on my current setup here! That would be awesome!!!

Exactly.  They are seen as gamepad buttons in Windows, MAME and any emulator that supports gamepads. 

[Visitor Q]

Oh ok... I think I see what you are saying. I did not know there was such a thing, my bad.

So what you are saying is if I buy two of these:

UltraStik Button / Encoder Harness
Optional Wiring Harness for connecting keyboard encoder (output mode) or 8 buttons (input mode)

You can connect 8 buttons each to player 1 and 2 U360? Am I understanding you correctly because this would cut back on 14 key presses on my current setup here! That would be awesome!!!

Exactly.  They are seen as gamepad buttons in Windows, MAME and any emulator that supports gamepads. 

NICE! I did not know this.

So in the same way that I would use the U360, I would use the buttons that go along with it so if a certain emualtor would require a key press, I would just use xpadder or joy2key to make it work then?

[Blanka]

I would not link buttons. You can always link them software-wise with the iPac utility! And try to use the U360 button connections for the 'non standard' buttons as much as possible. It will keep reconfiguring Mame and other programs to a minimum, as they are gamepad buttons and not keyboard buttons.

[Visitor Q]

I would not link buttons. You can always link them software-wise with the iPac utility! And try to use the U360 button connections for the 'non standard' buttons as much as possible. It will keep reconfiguring Mame and other programs to a minimum, as they are gamepad buttons and not keyboard buttons.

What do you consider to be a 'non standard' button?

Man... There sure is a lot to consider here. 

I am starting to think I should just go with my original plan here, get the IPac4 and just use it for all my controls except for the U360s. If I have 56 things that I can program, why limited myself? Also... If I buy two cables for the U360s to just use those buttons, they are like 8 bucks a piece = $16 for two. The price difference between the Ipac2 and 4 is $26 bucks; it would only cost me $10 more to go with the Ipac4 in this case.

[Visitor Q]

Here is the standard links for the above CP.

Player one joystick and the 4-way joystick are linked together, does not apply if using U360s (duh).
Player1 button 1 and 2 are linked to the two buttons to the left of the spinner.
Player1 button 3,4,5 are linked to the three buttons to the right of the 4-way.
Player1 button 6 and 7 are linked to the left side pinball buttons.
Player2 button 1 is linked to the front pinball plunger button.
Player2 button 2 and 3 is linked to the right side pinball buttons.
Buttons to the left of the trackball are the mouse buttons.