HELP - Trackball Soldering / Mouse Encoder - Hack Advice Needed! WITH PHOTOS

[slapaham]

It's a Nyko Classic Trackball for PSOne...

And if I could hack it, what I would I need and anyone got a suggestion as to how I might go about it? I looked on the Net and couldn't see any tutorials or much about it being used with MAME...

[slapaham]

In fact, couldn't you just use one of these and voila! a cheap trackball?

[slapaham]

Then perhaps to this...



Or am I just mad for suggesting this!?

[Ginsu Victim]

Then perhaps to this...

Or am I just mad for suggesting this!?

That would ruin the point. All you need is a PSX to USB convertor. Running it through PS/2 wouldn't work.

[ahofle]

I think the problem with using the PSX to USB converter would be finding a proper driver for it, since most of those converter drivers are for either gamepads or dance pads.  

[Ginsu Victim]

I thought about that as well. I was just saying that for a PSX to USB convertor, a PS/2 adapter is definitely not needed. I had the same concern as you, though.

[slapaham]

Well, I just purchased some of this stuff for very, very little... so I'll give it ago. Supposedly the drivers (it has some) for the PS>USB adapter covers all controls that work on the Playstation - I'll wait and see! If they don't then it doesn't matter - Trackball on Playstation for such a cheap price isn't all that bad at all!

[slapaham]

The driver is available here...

http://www.tomtop.net/down/KH001.rar

I'm downloading it now to take a look at it!

[slapaham]

mmm.... these are the product details...

Features:
Convert all the PSX controller to be used on PC.
Easy and convenient to use, simply hot-plug the C USB socket and install the driver, then it works perfectly.
Real vibration feedback function
Both Digital & Analog modes are available.
Support all vibration types.
Compatible with Win98, Win98SE, WinME, Win2000&the newly announced WinXP, together with the Direct X 7.0 a or above.
DDR dancing controller is compatible.
Build-in flashing signal indicator.
Once plug into USB connector, play your ps joypads at any time
When testing it under cmpter operation, different key reacts with different sound.

[SavannahLion]

Then perhaps to this...



Or am I just mad for suggesting this!?

For future reference. The adapter pictured there is a passive adapter. Any device connected needs to be "aware" of the PS/2 protocol. While it's worth a try, I have my doubts a PSX->USB->PS/2 adapter chain will even work. Stay with USB and leave it at that.

If anyone really really wants to use the PS/2 port for their sadistic pleasures, your best bet is to use a USB->PS/2 converter (rather than an adapter). Depending on the costs involved, it might be a better deal to pick up one of the offerings from Groovy Game Gear or Ultimarc.

[steveh]

i highly doubt the trackball will work.  My best guess is you are going to need to interface it with a mouse, or mouse encoder, and even then who knows if it will actually work.

[slapaham]

Well, I'll give it a go... I have to say, I doubt it will work too but who knows!

As you say, I can always try it with a mouse hack - I have quite a few PS/2 mouses hanging about so I'm not short on materials! I have fingers crossed that I might strike it lucky!!

[Turnarcades]

If the hardware inside the trackball is, as I suspect, just an embelished analog stick mechanism, then it should work - being recognised as those first-gen analog pads that debuted before the dual-shocks.

If that is the case, then most USB pad adapters will work. However, if it fails then it's likely there are some special encoder boards inside or something.

[ahofle]

What game was that thing supposed to be used for anyway?  If it's just some generic PS2 controller, then Turnarcades is probably right and it's just some kind of bastardized gamepad.

[RayB]

If the Atari 2600 could support a trackball, I don't see why this one wouldn't work. It probably translates the ball spinning into very fast series of "go left, don't go left" on and off that's so fast you don't realize all it's doing is pushing "left left left" at a particular speed... If I don't make sense, it's because you need to just bow to me and take my word for it.   

(In other words, a trackball is not an analog device!)

[slapaham]

I've got my fingers crossed - I'll report back with whatever I find for other people's future reference!

I heard there were a few arcade classic released on the PSOne so I'm guessing this would function with those. I just wondered whether this worked in the same way as the PSOne mouse - and if it did what bearing that would have on it working - guess I'll find out when it arrives in the next few days.

They cost me next to nothing so I thought it was well worth giving it a go and it is probably hackable...

[fiscap]

Then perhaps to this...



Or am I just mad for suggesting this!?

and then you can use one of these...



sorry - couldn't resist 

[Blanka]

Internally it probably looks like any mouse or trackball. Which is two wheels with gaps and two optic sensors. So either attach those sensors to an Optipac/Minipac or replace the optical sensors with those from a mouse and use the mouse as interface.

[RetroGreg]

I have one of those trackballs. It only works with PlayStation games that support the PlayStation "Mouse". These games should have the mouse icon on the back of the CD case. There weren't that many, but the Williams Arcade collections did use it. It won't work in regualr games like the analog stick. 

[ahofle]

Sounds like he'll definitely need to break out the soldering iron and multimeter to get this working on a PC then.

[slapaham]

You may be right - but whats reassuring are these 2 articles I came across -

http://arcadecontrols.com/wwwboard/messages/39932.html

http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_reviews.shtml (towards the very bottom of the page)

[slapaham]

Okay, it has arrived today (not the PS adapter but all 4 trackballs!) - I'm assuming that they won't work with the adapter anyway as the instruction manual does indeed say that these will only work with PS Mouse games.

I've taken it apart and it follows very similar to Betson Imperial 3" trackball found here -

http://www.willcoxonline.com/mame/controlpanel/controlpanel.htm

It has red wires coming from each axis which I guess are both soldered to the same point as the red wire on the mouse encoder shown on this page (yes, I have got a Microsoft PS/2 Mouse spare), it has one black wire (ground), again which can be soldered to the same place shown in the photos and it has orange and brown wires coming from each axis which I would have thought have to be positioned where the opto-transistor output pins are (refer to the photos on the website again).

Does this sound right? I may take some photos of the inside of this thing and post them up as this isn't my forte and I could really do with some opinions!

[slapaham]

So here's some photoes -







Any thoughts? If more photos are needed, let me know, such as the underside of the circuit board or more pictures of the right circuit board - I didn't regard these as all that important and I'm really not fussed about getting functionality out of the turbo switch or the 2 sets of L and R buttons - removing the existing encoders would remove these entirely from the casing anyway!

[Turnarcades]

Looks pretty straightforward wiring-wise, but it depends how the encoder boards interpret the info as to wether it will work on a PC. From what I understand it may not, but I'm not that technical minded so I'm probably wrong.

[KeithD]

I think I would look at replacing the insides with a mouse, depending on how you would want to interface to the computer. See if you can pop the optos and emitters from the mouse right onto the boards for the optos in the trackball, and replace the encoder board with the mouse board.

Either that, or see if the emitters and optos in the trackball will connect to the mouse board. There is less soldering that way. If the sensors in the trackball are compatible with the mouse, then what, 10 wires to solder and off you go? Nice!

K

[Ummon]

Looks like a lot of hussle and tussle for not a lot of savings.

[slapaham]

Thanks for the advice guys!

I have soldered some of it but I'm unsure as to where I should attach the 2 red (power) wires and 2 black (ground) wires to the mouse board...

Heres a pic of the mouse board...



Sorry for the quality!

Any ideas where I should connect the 2 red and 2 black wires anyone? I'm clueless on this! References (i.e. R9,etc) or directions to where they might go would be gratefully received.

I've attached the axis (orange and brown) to the optos but that is as far as I've got!

[slapaham]

By the way, the PS/2 lead is obstructing the view of a further 2 diodes (there are 4 in a row) just thought I should point that out!

[slapaham]

Also, please be aware that those red wires in the photo are loose and not attached...!! Only the orange and brown wires are attached to the optos at the moment! Should have taken a clearer photo but the bloody camera battery keeps dying!

[KeithD]

I'm not sure where the red/black wires are coming from, the trackball?

If you are simply connecting the mouse board to the optics in the trackball, then they should be powered from the mouse itself.

Looks like you only have the sensors and not the leds connected. The LED pads from the mouse board should be connected to the leds in the trackball. Remember that LEDs are polarity specific (+/-) so if you connect them backwards, they won't work. You MIGHT be able to check to see if the LEDS are working with your digicam. I haven't tried it on a mouse, but whenever I want to see if ne of the TV remotes in the house is working, I turn on the camera and point the remote at the lens and look to see if I can see flashing. The CCD or CMOS in the camera can see the IR pulses from teh remote. (A little side note there)

Also, if this doesn't work, I hope you didn't lose the optical components from the mouse. You may be able to use those parts on the trackball boards if the trackball components are not compatible with the mouse. It depends on whether they ft on the boards, or whether you can make them fit. If you keep the leads short enough, they should, assuming everything is connected properly.

As for this being a lot of work for little savings, well, for some of us it isn't about saving $3 or $25, it is more about solving a puzzle, or making something from things that shouldn't go together. No disrespect to anyone, we are all here to have fun, but we all have a different idea of fun. 

K

[slapaham]

Well, part of the appeal for me is figuring out the 'puzzle' and also saving money - I have not spent much on this and as KeithD it's great fun!

Sorry for the lack of info - there is one set of black and red wires coming from each trackball axis. As for the leds - I haven't really thought that far ahead - I'm concentrating on just getting the trackball to work then I'll consider sorting that out.

If you have any ideas as to where I should attach these red and black wires that would be great!

Nice tip on the camera test too!

Cheers

[KeithD]

Where do the black/ red wires solder to on the trackball axes? Are they possibly the wires that power the IR LEDS on the axes? If so, then they would go across from where you have your brown/orange leads.

Not sure how to ask this without being rude, but I don't mean to offend: Do you know how the mouse and trackball actually work? I mean the whole IR LED/ Optical sensor thing?

K

[slapaham]

That's not being rude - I'm utterly clueless - I'm a fast learner and I tend to learn while I go along (perhaps this isn't always the best way but it has worked plenty of times for me before!) - I had used other people's examples to guide me but obviously they don't always fit exactly.

Yes, from each axis you have one red, one black, one brown and one orange wire. The black wires always went to GND on the trackball encoder so I assumed these were ground wires while I'm not 100% where the red wires led but I'm positive it was a single point labelled '0'.

On the actual axis boards the red and black wires appear to come from the same point which is marked '0'. The orange and brown wires on each axis are marked '3' for orange and '1' for brown.

I'm assuming that the red wires power the IR LEDs while the black wires are just ground. My problem is, if I am right, where would I solder the red wires to the mouse encoder and where would I solder the ground wires?

Thanks for your help.

[KeithD]

I'm thinking that if you were to plug the mouse into a computer and measure the voltage across the point where the LED was mounted to the mouse board, that would tel you which is positive and which is negative. For instance, if you were to have the red lead on the left, and the black on the right, and measured -3V, then you would have the red lead on the negative and the black on the positive. Swap them and you would have your red and black. figured out.

Sounds like you might need to do a little research on how the mouse encoders work so that you can understand a little better exactly what it is you are trying to do. It looks like a hack that will work it is just a matter of getting it there.

This explains it pretty well though a bit dated, and most mice up until recently only use the one sensor for each axis.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/mouse2.htm

K

[slapaham]

Thanks for that - I was actually just taking a look at that guide! I'm starting to understand it a little better now!