Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: controls.xml outdated  (Read 20134 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

danfman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
  • Last login:November 14, 2009, 10:26:45 pm
controls.xml outdated
« on: September 03, 2008, 04:07:24 pm »
Is it just me or does controls.xml seem really outdated.  Does anyone have any knowledge of a new file or any attempts to update it?
"It depends on how you define alone…" –Bill Clinton

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 06:39:44 pm »
I submitted spy hunter like a month ago and the submission still shows as pending. :hissy: There's a lot of out of date info in there that I'd like to start correcting, but obviously I'm not going to work on it if I have to wait forever just to see if it gets accepted.
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

NOP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 916
  • Last login:September 19, 2017, 08:22:27 pm
  • I stole my avatar.
    • winterMAME
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 10:15:40 pm »
what would it take to wiki-ize it?
It's a pretty big file, but maybe it could be broken into #, a-z into separate pages, and then have some sort of application that could merge it all together and present it as 1 file to someone wanting to download it?  that's out of my realm, but should be doable.  Then anyone could pop in and update it.  I've found that wiki's that are open to the public are very rarely sabotaged with incorrect data, and with the revision history, it's pretty easy to see what was changed and can be reverted if damaged.

for what it's worth, there is a log file of all the missing roms (as of mame 120 or so) available here:

http://www.waste.org/~winkles/ROMLister/mergelog.txt




Space Fractal

  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1887
  • Last login:April 10, 2013, 05:07:30 pm
  • Space Fractal
    • Space Fractal
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 07:51:51 am »
The original page (fe.donkeyfly.com) seen to been gone.

So this need to been moved to new server and take over the project. One of the original authors have also leaved this scene.

I also think clones should been seperated (there are a lots of clones listed), since most controls is the same anyway and hence not listed in the file.

Currectly in work: Greedy Mouse || Previous Work: MultiFE Frontend, ArcadeMusicBox Jukebox || Music for various games (Tardis.dk + Greatflash.co.uk).

NOP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 916
  • Last login:September 19, 2017, 08:22:27 pm
  • I stole my avatar.
    • winterMAME
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 09:49:26 am »
here's the same list with the clones removed. (easy to filter out using DOS's find command)

http://www.waste.org/~winkles/ROMLister/noclones.txt

I have web space for hosting the finished file, but I don't have any mysql or other database support available for making it a wiki or other interactive "upload your changes" type website. 

We really need a web geek.  Anyone?


headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 10:11:53 am »
We really need a web geek.  Anyone?

I think it would be relatively easy to write an app to do this. In fact for a while I have been thinking of writing an app similar to ColorsIni which helped me automate the process of entering color data for games. I see a few benefits for writing an app to help with this, as it could use the default control info generated from Mame. It could have all the controls in comboboxes to choose from and it could also show the CP image while you scroll through games to help identify the labels for the game, also you could have the ability to launch Mame to actually test the controls as well as copying & pasting controls from game to game. Since Controls.Dat is designed to only have parent ROMs a program could also filter out the clones.

The reason why I think a local app would be better is from my experience you will have more chance finding one person who will be dedicated enough to go through and update the data accurately and reliably (and someone who knows Mame controls well of course). The time and effort involved in managing a website to accept entries from anyone in my opinion will not work very well (and infact is what SirPoonga has said already). And it's not because it's a hard thing to do, writing a html form that will post data somewhere is easy to do, it's finding people to enter the data that's the hard part. When I wrote ColorsIni noone wanted to help at the time so I spent about 4 hours straight (destroying a mouse in the process) and got it done myself. So I think the best way to get this done is to write a program to automate the process and I think ColorsIni would be a good start.

If we can find a dedicated person willing to do it then it might be worth writing the app to help do it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 10:19:10 am by headkaze »

u_rebelscum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3633
  • Last login:April 21, 2010, 03:06:26 pm
  • You rebel scum
    • Mame:Analog+
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 01:17:59 pm »
Like the idea of the app.

...Since Controls.Dat is designed to only have parent ROMs...

IIRC, controls.dat assumed that clones had the same inputs as parents, but was able to do clones that had different inputs than parents.  A couple examples with clone different than parent: cabal (TB vs bootleg joystick & extra button), harddrivin (analog shifter vs "compact" cab's digital shifter).

edit: looks like clones w/ different inputs was in the todo list?

Quote
...If we can find a dedicated person willing to do it then it might be worth writing the app to help do it.

Dedicated and IMO "truth" oriented.  I like control.dat's "must be verified" rule.  Some people less "truth" oriented wanted to fill in unverified button names with generic ones.  While I don't mind place holders like that, place holders often get used as if they are real data.

I'm very interested, but I doubt I'm dedicated enough to keep it going for the required years.  :-\
Robin
Knowledge is Power

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 03:39:15 pm »
I submitted spy hunter like a month ago and the submission still shows as pending.
I see it.  However, you have no proof.

One goal of controls.dat is to have accurate information so we require documentation.  A picture of the control panel, the manual, something.

Anyone can update the entries.  It just needs to be reviewed for accuracy.

HowardC and I have not left the scene or abandoned the project.  It's more like community left the project.  Since people haven't been submitting data it hasn't been worth the effort to maintain.

I also haven't had the time lately.  My weekends have been busy for the last two months.

Quote
edit: looks like clones w/ different inputs was in the todo list?
Yeah, again, with a sudden drop off of community help I haven't had the motivation to add new features.  Controls.dat is designed to support the entire mame rom set.  It's the website that doesn't support clones right now.

If someone wants host it and take over talk to me.  The data is stored in a mysql database.  I could easily export the data and send it along.  Now, finding the source for the site will take a bit, though I could always login and ftp it back.

Though I have been thinking about using the site to learn Silverlight with.  I think a slick Silverlihgt interface would be cool.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:42:01 pm by SirPoonga »

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 03:47:56 pm »
Not exactly sure what you need, since control panel pictures are readily available. I think a good definition of "proof" needs to be available there. Here's one cp pic: http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/cpanel/spyhunt.png. Is that enough?
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 03:57:49 pm »
Not exactly sure what you need, since control panel pictures are readily available. I think a good definition of "proof" needs to be available there. Here's one cp pic: http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/cpanel/spyhunt.png. Is that enough?
The FAQ should explain the submitting process.  Unfortunately the site is down now...

Proof is anything that is readable (control panel pic, manual) that tells you what the button should be labeled as or it's action.  For example, the thumb buttons on the spy hunter yoke do not have labels.  We still need to know what it does.  Now, it is a popular game, you might say duh it's the fire button.  The problem, we found, is what people think is common knowledge about what a button does in a game is not necessarily the correct label.  The goal of controls.dat is to be as accurate as it can be so you can label the controls mame says the game has.

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 04:07:20 pm »
Another option is I could add someone as an admin to the forum which also grants you the right to review submissions.

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 04:39:56 pm »
How about granting me the right? ;) :laugh2:
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 05:10:10 pm »
So I checked the Spy Hunter manual and see no reference to which button is which. Are you saying that if NO documentation (proof) can be found then it will NEVER be admitted into controls.dat? If so, I think that's a real shame and perhaps is partly why support from the community has fallen off.

In addition, I have noticed that a fair amount of the information in controls.dat (the additional info, not the button labels) is incorrect - I assume due to changes in mame after the time it was submitted. It's too bad that controls.dat won't accept unproven (yet most likely correct) new submissions, but hasn't been as diligent about weeding out obsolete information that's already there.

It's almost like we need an official controls.dat which only contains proven information, and an unofficial controls.dat which contains all of that, plus the unproven information. Obviously one would hope that over time the unofficial entries would be proven to be correct, thus resulting in promotion to the official version. Seems like that would energize the community with regard to bringing it more up to date.

To me, since I use CPWizard, no information is pretty much just as bad as incorrect information, so I'd certainly take the chance on that if there was an unofficial controls.dat.
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

Space Fractal

  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1887
  • Last login:April 10, 2013, 05:07:30 pm
  • Space Fractal
    • Space Fractal
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 06:03:35 pm »
that is a good idea. In My FE, I could read the unofficial first and then the confirmed one. That make sure official which I assume is best entry is best. The user would have the possible to use the unofficial one (which could called betas or such).

And yes comments might been outdated due the driver can have been fixed or changed.

So yes, I think TheShanMan is correctly here....
Currectly in work: Greedy Mouse || Previous Work: MultiFE Frontend, ArcadeMusicBox Jukebox || Music for various games (Tardis.dk + Greatflash.co.uk).

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 07:15:18 pm »
Actually I figured the unofficial would contain all official entries plus unofficial entries, so as a user you'd only need one or the other depending on preference. I figure all records in the "master database" would need a flag indicating whether they're official or unofficial. And both versions of the controls.dat file would need that as well so a FE or CP app or whatever could indicate in some way whether or not it is "proven" information. Once a record is proven, the flag gets toggled. The official dat would filter out the unofficial record, and the unofficial dat would be unfiltered.

Of course, sometimes for a given game there would be both an official record and an unofficial one. In that case, the official dat would have the official record and the unofficial dat would have the unofficial record.

At least that's my vision. :)
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2008, 02:23:18 am »
I'm very interested, but I doubt I'm dedicated enough to keep it going for the required years.  :-\

I think our main goal at the moment should be to get it updated to the current version of Mame. I've started writing the app and quite a ways through already (using alot of code from CPWizard and ColorsIni) so I should have a beta ready in the next few days. I'll PM you about it soon.

SirPoonga: Can I somehow get the latest ControlsDat developers kit off you? I can only seem to find an old copy and I'm not sure if somethings changed. Also it would be great to get a hold of Controls.xml if you have done any more updates since 0.111.3? Also it would be handy to be able to check out the form you had for entering controls.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 03:00:51 am by headkaze »

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2008, 08:04:45 pm »
If that was the latest on site you have it.  The fe dev kit and xml was all generate on site.

What's out of date?

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2008, 09:10:51 pm »
SirPoonga, I was hoping you'd respond to my idea - would you be in support of an unofficial controls.dat and the promotion of records to the official version upon proof (see prior posts for more detail)?

I'd bet that one way or another some sort of unofficial controls.dat will happen due to demand. I would hope it would happen with your blessing and tight integration with the controls.dat engine, rather than by forking in a way which is less beneficial in the long run to the official controls.dat.
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

arzoo

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1892
  • Last login:August 21, 2019, 04:58:07 pm
  • We are not in the 8th dimension. We are over NJ.
    • LEDBlinky
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2008, 09:57:39 am »
I figure I might as well chime in here seeing as LEDBlinky relies on the controls.dat data. For LEDBlinky's purposes, I feel it's more important to cover as many games as possible regardless of the pure authenticity. Programs like LEDBlinky and CPWizard are designed to help play the games - so whether a button is spoken or labeled as "bomb" or "nuke bomb" is not really important as long as the user knows what the button does. That said, I do feel we should retain an official (verified) set of data as a reference. But I like ShanMan's concept of an amended (unofficial) version of the data for use by apps such as LEDBlinky and others.

Headkaze - count me in if you need help with the data entry app or supporting the data.
Robots will kill you.



Arcade Addiction

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2008, 06:24:03 pm »
Okay here are some screenshots of the app I'm writing. It is coming along really well and actually nearly ready to go.

It has some features that should help with data entry such as:

- Shows which games have a ControlsDat entry, which don't and also shows parent ControlsDat info for clones.
- Filter the list, showing only ControlsDat games, all games or parents only
- Sort games by any column including Name, ROM, Source, CloneOf, RomOf, Parent, Constants, Controls, NumPlayers, NumButtons, Alternating, Mirrored, UsesService, Tilt, Cocktail and MiscDetails.
- Launch the game directly for testing
- View the control panel
- I am intigrating colors.ini so the color data can be filled in at the same time and this will also be included in future Controls.Dat releases. You can select from color swatches or pick a color from the CP and it will select the closest color in the swatch
- Copy/Paste/Delete Controls.Dat entries so you can copy entries that are the same such as mahjong games etc.
- View Dip Switches for games which can help determine if it has cocktail mode, alternating game play and services.
- I'm also considering adding the ability use the dip switches and default Mame data to help create a default ControlsDat entry for a game. So when you create a new one all the data found in Mame is used to start you off, then you can add/remove/edit controls as you need.
- I will also probably add a flag which can be used to set a game to "Verified or UnVerified" so you can just quickly enter a game and flag it as UnVerified to look at it later.
- Finally it will have an "Export Controls.xml" and probably the old format as well. I will probably also add the ability to export only verified games or to include unverified.
- I may have the ability to upload entries to a website and Tom Speirs has mentioned he is happy to host any webspace needed for this project. But really I am mostly aiming for a pure offline data entry program that will be used by a dedicated person who is willing to spend the time to update the entire dat file rather than having multiple people and all the problems with verifying and maintaining that data.

Anyway here are some screenshots. I want u_rebelscum to check it out when it's done as he's one of the most knowledgable persons about Mame controls (and my No. 1 choice for doing the first update to the current Mame version). If people have any ideas on how to improve on it feel free to let me know but I will make an official post about it when it's finished.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 06:33:09 pm by headkaze »

NOP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 916
  • Last login:September 19, 2017, 08:22:27 pm
  • I stole my avatar.
    • winterMAME
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2008, 06:45:24 pm »
wow.
All I can say is amazing work, and I wish I had your skills/freetime/dedication to this.  How you're able to juggle this and all the other apps you do is beyond me.  Hopefully this will really kickstart things and make it so easy, a caveman could do it.

It would be great to get an overview/instructions for simpletons such as myself on how exactly to fill in all the data, what stuff should be filled in, and where to go looking for information if we don't have 1st hand info.


headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 07:01:26 pm »
wow.
All I can say is amazing work, and I wish I had your skills/freetime/dedication to this.  How you're able to juggle this and all the other apps you do is beyond me.  Hopefully this will really kickstart things and make it so easy, a caveman could do it.

It would be great to get an overview/instructions for simpletons such as myself on how exactly to fill in all the data, what stuff should be filled in, and where to go looking for information if we don't have 1st hand info.

If you coded in C# rather than C++ you would probably have the benefit of rapid development that the .NET namespaces provide. It really does make short work of projects like this, although I have classes I reuse all the time. Like I'm re-using code from CPWizard, Colors.Ini and GameEx DBM all in this project.

I'm going to need help with this as well because I'd like to automate as much of this process as I can. Data entry can be boring so the more things I can automate the better. Where do people go to find info? What other info can I use to help the user determine the controls? Playing the game or viewing the game's CP is one way, and using the dip switches is another way. Are there resources on the Net where control info/labels can be found? Is there an online database I can grab data from?

Also I was curious what UseServices means? Is it the same as the "Service Mode" in the dip switches? So if it has a "Service Mode" dipswitch can I assume the "UseServices" should be set?

Here is some dipswitch data I got from Mame's output. I will be using data like this to help determine Alternate and Cocktail modes, I just wonder if the "Service Mode" is the same thing as UseServices?

Code: [Select]
<dipswitch name="Alternate Controls">
<dipvalue name="Off" default="yes"/>
<dipvalue name="On"/>
</dipswitch>

<dipswitch name="Service Mode">
<dipvalue name="Off" default="yes"/>
<dipvalue name="On"/>
</dipswitch>

<dipswitch name="Cabinet">
<dipvalue name="Upright" default="yes"/>
<dipvalue name="Cocktail"/>
</dipswitch>
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 07:09:29 pm by headkaze »

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2008, 07:23:59 pm »
I'm going to need help with this as well because I'd like to automate as much of this process as I can. Data entry can be boring so the more things I can automate the better. Where do people go to find info? What other info can I use to help the user determine the controls? Playing the game or viewing the game's CP is one way, and using the dip switches is another way. Are there resources on the Net where control info/labels can be found? Is there an online database I can grab data from?
That's partly why controls.dat started, there wasn't a good central location for that type of information.

Quote
Also I was curious what UseServices means? Is it the same as the "Service Mode" in the dip switches? So if it has a "Service Mode" dipswitch can I assume the "UseServices" should be set?
There's a bunch of gotchas in mame you have to watch out for.  In controls.dat, if I recall (since the site is down I don't know off hand), playchoice 10 uses service buttons which are not normal buttons.  That entry is hard coded because it didn't fit well with the way everything else in mame works.

This is where some of the "inaccuracies" come from.  I know there are games that just have a singe fire button but controls.dat says it has two.  That's what mame reports.  if you research the game it actually had two buttons that did the same actions.  It's stupid but they had seperate buttons on each side of the joystick (for lefties and righties) wired to their own pins on the board.  They could have just wired the buttons in parallel.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 07:28:33 pm by SirPoonga »

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2008, 07:30:33 pm »
SirPoonga, I was hoping you'd respond to my idea - would you be in support of an unofficial controls.dat and the promotion of records to the official version upon proof (see prior posts for more detail)?
Unofficial is fine. People wanted me to add the color information to proect.  The reason I didn't is because there are so few games that had specific colors for buttons it wasn't worth the effort to add it.  That's the perfect thing as an individual project.

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2008, 09:27:29 pm »
SirPoonga, I was hoping you'd respond to my idea - would you be in support of an unofficial controls.dat and the promotion of records to the official version upon proof (see prior posts for more detail)?
Unofficial is fine. People wanted me to add the color information to proect.  The reason I didn't is because there are so few games that had specific colors for buttons it wasn't worth the effort to add it.  That's the perfect thing as an individual project.

Glad to hear it. Then I would hope that whatever is done to promote the concept of an unofficial controls.dat will also have a mechanism for submission to the official controls.dat. I just don't want to see the official one get neglected to the point of obsolescence if the unofficial one becomes very popular, because I do see value in the approach taken with the official one. And any new features (like colors) I would hope to see shared between the two if possible.

Headkaze, will the generated controls.xml files have some sort of flag indicating whether a record is official or unofficial? Do you think it would be beneficial for apps like CPW to have the ability to differentiate between official and unofficial as a means to convey trustworthiness of the data?
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2008, 10:21:47 pm »
Headkaze, will the generated controls.xml files have some sort of flag indicating whether a record is official or unofficial? Do you think it would be beneficial for apps like CPW to have the ability to differentiate between official and unofficial as a means to convey trustworthiness of the data?

Already implementing this as mentioned earlier in my post about the software, I'm adding a flag called "Verified". All the current data will be called verified, and new data will have the ability to be flaged as Verified or not. This software really takes the Controls.Dat project from a public project to a private one and I think it will have more chance of being maintained that way. Once we get an update to the current Mame version we will have someone (or a couple of people) maintaining it. Then if someone decides they don't have the time we can move it on to someone else. But I think we want people who are clued up on the Mame controls to maintain it. The verified flag is really not that important though, and it's really only to display to the author that the controls probably need to looked at and tested more, or that the official labels are not known so labels are guessed and what not. An explaination as to why it's not verified can probably be added to MiscDetails.

The program will have a working data set with the ability to export to Controls.xml with an option to include verified games or not. So there will be two versions released to the public; Controls.xml (All Data) and Controls.xml (Verified Only). I think that should ensure that both the integrity of the data can be maintained as well as getting as many games added as possible.

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2008, 10:51:57 pm »
That sounds excellent, but it sounds like you're suggesting someone take the verified controls.dat project over, and I'm not sure SirPoonga is on board with that? Or are you suggesting that he would take charge of the verified AND unverified projects?
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2008, 12:22:01 am »
I think saint is suggesting to host the project here.  I'm trying to get the site back online so I can grab the data.

I found a backup of the data from march.  Since not much happened that is probably fine.

I could easily add a verified attribute to the format.

You know what controls.dat needs, what slows down updating it.  I use mamediff to determine roms that were renamed, removed, etc...  I need a program that can compare the output of two listxml's and find the control changes.  I see asteroids is now buttons.  When it was added to controls.dat they mapped the directions to the joystick.  That's why asteroids lists a joystick in controls.dat.

Listxml is getting huge.  None of my xml editting tools can open it.  It wouldn't be hard.  In theory the xml node isn't going to change unless they reorganize.  So a simple test to see if the text changed would be enough.  I might be able to modify my tool that creates the sql statements to update the website to also check for input changes.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 12:45:27 am by SirPoonga »

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2008, 02:14:50 am »
SirPoonga: I thought the website was closed down because of lack of public support ??? I didn't realise it was only down temporarily. I was looking at taking over the project with an offline version maintained using the new software I'm writing. Seeing how it's been so long since the last update perhaps we should try this approach? I'm also adding in colors.ini to the file so that will mean it will conflict with the online version. People are only going to want to support the one format.

So I feel like I'm stuck here not knowing what to do. I was pretty much thinking it was going to have to go this way to keep the project going. So what now? How much data is there that has been added to the website ready to be added to a new version? If there is nothing then I'll just take the current version and start from there. Are you happy for me to continue on with this SirPoonga? I was hoping u_rebelscum was going to have a go at doing a large update using the software or do you want to try out my program yourself?

Space Fractal

  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1887
  • Last login:April 10, 2013, 05:07:30 pm
  • Space Fractal
    • Space Fractal
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2008, 05:32:01 am »
There's a bunch of gotchas in mame you have to watch out for.  In controls.dat, if I recall (since the site is down I don't know off hand), playchoice 10 uses service buttons which are not normal buttons.  That entry is hard coded because it didn't fit well with the way everything else in mame works.

This is where some of the "inaccuracies" come from.  I know there are games that just have a singe fire button but controls.dat says it has two.  That's what mame reports.  if you research the game it actually had two buttons that did the same actions.  It's stupid but they had separate buttons on each side of the joystick (for lefties and righties) wired to their own pins on the board.  They could have just wired the buttons in parallel.

Only Mario Bros is they Play Choice game use one button, all other use 2 buttons (based on games that is on klov.com). Just look on the help screen, what the buttons does. These games is based on NES hardware which have 2 buttons.


headkaze: does any fe actuelly use colors.ini? If Yes you need to still have a seperated version to fit these fe.... But a joined version would been very fine.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:38:13 am by Space Fractal »
Currectly in work: Greedy Mouse || Previous Work: MultiFE Frontend, ArcadeMusicBox Jukebox || Music for various games (Tardis.dk + Greatflash.co.uk).

arzoo

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1892
  • Last login:August 21, 2019, 04:58:07 pm
  • We are not in the 8th dimension. We are over NJ.
    • LEDBlinky
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2008, 09:20:23 am »
headkaze: does any fe actuelly use colors.ini? If Yes you need to still have a seperated version to fit these fe.... But a joined version would been very fine.

I believe that only headkaze's apps and LEDBlinky use colors.ini. I'm more than happy to mod LEDBlinky to use a single source for controls and colors!  :)
Robots will kill you.



Arcade Addiction

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2008, 12:29:39 pm »
SirPoonga: I thought the website was closed down because of lack of public support ??? I didn't realise it was only down temporarily. I was looking at taking over the project with an offline version maintained using the new software I'm writing. Seeing how it's been so long since the last update perhaps we should try this approach? I'm also adding in colors.ini to the file so that will mean it will conflict with the online version. People are only going to want to support the one format.

So I feel like I'm stuck here not knowing what to do. I was pretty much thinking it was going to have to go this way to keep the project going. So what now? How much data is there that has been added to the website ready to be added to a new version? If there is nothing then I'll just take the current version and start from there. Are you happy for me to continue on with this SirPoonga? I was hoping u_rebelscum was going to have a go at doing a large update using the software or do you want to try out my program yourself?
First, I don't know why the website is down.  I was logged in a couple weeks ago.
Second, how does colors.ini conflict with it.  Isn't it a seperate file?

Like I said, I can add someone as an admin to controls.dat if they want to review submissions.  It's actually quite easy.  I do two things, I check the resource to see if it is valid and I can read the labels on the control panel.  Then I check mame to make sure all of the controls mame says is listed.  Make changes if needed and accept it.

Since the site is down I can't answer many questions because I haven't looked at the code an database in sometime.

I could add a verified checkbox when accepting a submission which will then add a verified attribute.

I could add in some code to import data.  I could take the output of your program and add new entries, just flag them as not verified.


Only Mario Bros is they Play Choice game use one button, all other use 2 buttons (based on games that is on klov.com). Just look on the help screen, what the buttons does. These games is based on NES hardware which have 2 buttons.
You missed my point.  I believe the UseService in controls.dat indicated games that use the service buttons.  These are the buttons that allow you to switch games.  See the lixtxml output from the game, service is yes
<input players="2" buttons="2" coins="2" service="yes">
   <control type="joy8way"/>
</input>
If I remember correctly that is what this is for.  But they don;t list how many service buttons and what they are for.  I think we had to look at the mame source code to figure that out.  I don;t have a controls.xml right now.  What is the playch10 entry?

There are games people have complained to me about that they only have one button.  What the manufacture did was put a button on the right and left of the joystick and wired them as separate buttons.  So technically the game has two buttons that do the same thing.

My point of that post is you have to realize controls.dat may not be as out of date as some people think.  Yeah, asteroids finally is proper and only lists buttons.  That will need updating.  But some things people complain about are not inaccurate.

Space Fractal

  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1887
  • Last login:April 10, 2013, 05:07:30 pm
  • Space Fractal
    • Space Fractal
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2008, 03:12:55 pm »
I just looked in the file controls.ini:

1. The service buttons is listed in the controls.ini (which I use) as separate buttons (as SERVICEx= entry), but is not counted as a in-game button. But since you can't switch a game in Mame (which only emulate one game inserted as I known), they are not really useable anyway. So I think its pretty correct. I do see all games should got listed, so they got better label?

2. I see also many entry listed number of buttons used in the PCB and NOT the game its self? I think that wrong, I see mirrored buttons should not count (as these games would been playable with a one joystick + one button panels). Examples is:

- Galaga '88 (the file contain PCB have 3 inputs and the control panel used a 8 way joystick, but the game itself really only use a 2-way Joystick with one button).
- Beels & Whistles (both buttons does the same = no need to list as a 2 button game).
- Air Buster (both buttons does the same = no need to list as a 2 button game).

So its still have been some inaccurate and should been corrected....

To the last the Headkaze utility is a good one to check all entries in a great user interface. I think clones could been marked as "use parent", if the controls is the same?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 03:14:31 pm by Space Fractal »
Currectly in work: Greedy Mouse || Previous Work: MultiFE Frontend, ArcadeMusicBox Jukebox || Music for various games (Tardis.dk + Greatflash.co.uk).

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Last login:April 23, 2016, 02:55:21 pm
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2008, 04:31:00 pm »
My point of that post is you have to realize controls.dat may not be as out of date as some people think.  Yeah, asteroids finally is proper and only lists buttons.  That will need updating.  But some things people complain about are not inaccurate.

If you're including my comments about inaccuracy there, what I have noticed is the miscellaneous field sometimes has outdated information. I don't recall off the top of my head what the examples are, but if you want to know so it can be corrected, I could try to find those.
My Collection: Mame cab, 34 dedicated cabs, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, and token machine (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade, updated 1/30/13 with Sprint 2, Centipede, and Bubbles)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2008, 04:38:20 pm »
SigPoonga: Okay if your still going to be running the project, then I think I should make sure my app will work alongside the online project. So say someone uses my software and adds a whole bunch of entries, will you merge that Controls.xml into yours or do you want me to add the ability to import/merge an external Controls.xml? I think you will find my software very helpful, so I think I will add importing anyway. Also I propose we combine colors.ini and add a "Status" tags. I say the Status can be Verified="1" or Verified="0". I can also add the ability to work with that as well.

If a label doesn't have a color entry I think the tag should not be in the xml.

So here is an entry, note the added "Status" tag and "Color" attribute for labels:

Code: [Select]
<Game RomName="1942" GameName="1942 (set 1)" NumPlayers="2" Alternating="1" Mirrored="1" UsesService="0" Tilt="0" Cocktail="1">
<Status Verified="1" />
<MiscDetails />
<Player Number="1" NumButtons="2">
  <Controls>
<Control Name="8-way Joystick">
 <Constant Name="joy8way" />
</Control>
  </Controls>
  <Labels>
<Label Name="P1_BUTTON1" Value="Fire" Color="Red" />
<Label Name="P1_BUTTON2" Value="Loop" Color="White" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_UP" Value="Up" Color="Red" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_DOWN" Value="Down" Color="Red" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_LEFT" Value="Left" Color="Red" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_RIGHT" Value="Right" Color="Red" />
  </Labels>
</Player>
</Game>

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2008, 06:18:48 pm »
1. The service buttons is listed in the controls.ini (which I use) as separate buttons (as SERVICEx= entry), but is not counted as a in-game button. But since you can't switch a game in Mame (which only emulate one game inserted as I known), they are not really useable anyway. So I think its pretty correct. I do see all games should got listed, so they got better label?
Isn't one of the service buttons to put it in test mode or for sometype of setup.  It;s been a long time since I looked at it.

Quote
2. I see also many entry listed number of buttons used in the PCB and NOT the game its self? I think that wrong, I see mirrored buttons should not count (as these games would been playable with a one joystick + one button panels). Examples is:
This is where it's tough to judge between accuracy and usability.  This is where an unofficial control.dat would be useful.  If you were making a front end and you asked mame for the controls information it will return 2 buttons.  You then use controls.dat to figure out what to label those buttons.

Quote
To the last the Headkaze utility is a good one to check all entries in a great user interface. I think clones could been marked as "use parent", if the controls is the same?
The controls.dat file supports clones.  I always have said if someone wants to add a clone give me the information and I will hard code it.  The submission form doesn't support clones.  there are far fewer clones that don't have the same controls as the parent so it is more viable to just add them to controls.dat.

this is also why I don't think colors.ini should be in controls.dat.  There's like less then 5% of the games in mame have specific colored buttons.  The FE developer could combine them at runtime if he likes.

Let me get a website going again for the project and we will figure out where to go from there.  Good news is I found a backup of the site's php.  I have a database backup from this last march.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 06:40:01 pm by SirPoonga »

Space Fractal

  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1887
  • Last login:April 10, 2013, 05:07:30 pm
  • Space Fractal
    • Space Fractal
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2008, 06:44:04 pm »
Personally I do like colors in controls.dat, since they have something with controls to do.... Any Fe's that doesn't support that would just ignore that.

For accuracy and useability, I think a new argument is needed (for asteroids example):

<Player Number="1" NumButtons="5" MinButtons="3">

Layouts for unused buttons is then ignored (here button 4 and 5).

miscDetails could then state about how the deficient about the 3 buttons and 5 buttons layout.

I think in that way more games would been playable when they begin to filter out games based on number of buttons with the minimum required buttons (if mame example list unused buttons which can been filtered out).

NB. in MultiFE (which currently not support this file yet) I would use controls.dat weighted higher than mame outout, if mame contain some inaccuracy about number of buttons, due to the driver used. I think this was the whole points of this project.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 07:16:24 pm by Space Fractal »
Currectly in work: Greedy Mouse || Previous Work: MultiFE Frontend, ArcadeMusicBox Jukebox || Music for various games (Tardis.dk + Greatflash.co.uk).

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2008, 09:37:59 pm »
Okay my little app has been released to check out.

SirPoonga

  • Puck'em Up
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8176
  • Last login:September 05, 2017, 09:45:52 am
  • The Bears Still Suck!
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2008, 11:24:21 pm »
<Player Number="1" NumButtons="5" MinButtons="3">

That's a possibility.

I'm thinking about using controls.dat to learn Silverlight.  It won't take much to add something like verified and two different button numbers.  I could add hat quick and then look at rewriting the site.

headkaze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2943
  • Last login:Yesterday at 03:25:22 pm
  • 0x2b|~0x2b?
Re: controls.xml outdated
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2008, 11:26:32 pm »
That's a possibility.

I'm thinking about using controls.dat to learn Silverlight.  It won't take much to add something like verified and two different button numbers.  I could add hat quick and then look at rewriting the site.

I hope my work over the weekend hasn't been in vein  :o