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Author Topic: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like  (Read 2779 times)

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Ummon

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LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« on: August 30, 2008, 09:01:25 pm »
This is a CRT with, I'm guessing, the brightness or/and contrast turned up too high - although my Dell trinitron looks like this all the time, but I don't use it for Mame games, especially not black-background golden age games - and this is what LCDs look like all the time.
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People often confuse expressed observations with complaint, ridicule, or - even worse - self-pity.

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 08:47:50 am »
With the brightness and contrast hiked up, yes.

My eyes cannot stand the glare, so I invest in a filter and bring the settings down.
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TOK

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 12:05:59 pm »
The blacks and response times are definitely a weakness on LCD's. Pretty easy to find 2ms small LCD panels now, so the display speed isn't much of an issue. Using a tinted bezel helps the black issue immensely. This is my LCD panel with 20% tint.
Its in a bartop where LCD's make the most sense.



Ummon

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 09:29:50 pm »
The blacks and response times are definitely a weakness on LCD's. Pretty easy to find 2ms small LCD panels now, so the display speed isn't much of an issue. Using a tinted bezel helps the black issue immensely. This is my LCD panel with 20% tint.
Its in a bartop where LCD's make the most sense.




Looking at that picture, I can still see it though. (re: ark-ader) I'm fussy that way. However, my point in this thread is to show people what it actually looks like via this example and what to look for when looking at an LCD in contrast to a CRT. They can then decide whether they like it, wanna deal with it, etc. (This also puts to rest the discussion of 'LCD backlighting'.)
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People often confuse expressed observations with complaint, ridicule, or - even worse - self-pity.

Blanka

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 01:42:27 am »
@TOK:
Don't know how you took that picture, but the histogram only uses the darkest 10% of the spectrum, so either the camera or the photoshop killed quite a bit of dynamic range. If you stretch it too full dynamic range, it more looks like this:

So ask yourself how true your image is compared to what your eyes see. Try to make an image with a nice full historgram from black to white, and then show it.

I did lots of research on the LCD thing, and if this is a TN screen this picture cannot be unaltered.
Dark tinted glass does not help as the contrast stays the same. The problem is the brightness of the backlight. The best thing to have for a cab is environment-light-adaptive backlight. Eizo puts it in their screens I know. Do not confuse it with dynamic contrast, which adjusts contrast based on the image. Because of this light sensor, the black in my screen is always adapted to the light in the room. I think the contrast is better than with CRT. You might see some black-leaking, but the white is much brighter too!

TOK

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 05:49:33 am »
Well, it looks like the image I posted, not the one you posted with the contrast cranked to a million.


TOK

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 06:04:43 am »
I found a pic taken with no flash and ambient light. This is also before I tinted the bezel. Its a crap picture with reflection of another machine in the background, but its unaltered just like the original one I posted in the dark.

I have no LCD agenda, I just see Ummon posting a lot of misinformation. Like a pic of a CRT as an example of why he doesn't like LCD's.


wbassett

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 06:49:54 am »
I don't want to take the thread OT... just comment on LCDs.

This has been a debate of mine as well.  I'm looking for a larger display for my cab, especially since being introduced to Artwork! 

There used to be tons of over sized CRT monitors, presentation monitors, and even 4:3 EDTV's would work (basically a presentation monitor).  Now these are getting harder and harder to find and I suspect unfortunately more of these end up in a landfill than any of us would want to see.  Actually... one working 27" CRT display ending up in a landfill is more than I want to see there! 

Case in point as to the move from CRT to LCD/Flat panels-  I just picked up a 20" Dell Trinitron for $10!  We have a local store that the only way I can describe it is it's like a Salvation Army but only for furniture, building supplies, and electronics.  Sometimes they have some good deals, a lot of times they have junk. (Also picked up a couple PC joysticks for $2 each when I got the monitor, the Wingman digital works like a champ!)

I know some people say CRT will be around for a long long time... I personally would drop one of those 'long's' and say they will be around for a long time, but they are going away.  I'm not saying this is any kind of 'proof', but we are seeing a new light gun sonic sensor tech being tested right now, and this is an industry device, not something made just for us consumers.  In a couple of years I can see it becoming harder and harder to support CRT bases systems, and even some repair shops could possibly raise their rates if they realize they are the only ones in a local nitch market.

Even on the sites of arcade monitor manufacturers I see sections now for LCD displays.  Right now it's a small section and selection, but this is normal for anything new that's replacing extisting tech.

Anyone remember the day when Block Buster only rented VHS tapes?  Remember when DVDs were introduced?  DVDs only had one small display (actually even smaller than the Bluray displays in Block Buster now).  Eventually it expanded to a full isle... and within two years all the VHS tapes were gone.  I'm not saying CRTs will be gone in two years, but I definitely can see them becoming a thing of the past quicker than some want to admit.

Hopefully by then though they will have LCD tech refined to the point black levels and contrast match (or are very close) to what we get with CRTs, and also It would be fantastic to see 27" LCD's in the sub $200 range like most 27" CRT TVs are now!

Oh... almost forgot...  My cab has a CRT in it, but I also have systems upstairs that I test bed things on like new games and I am playing around with front ends... and one of my systems is a 27" LCD HDTV with a PC input... so I'm lucky in the sense I can look at both right in the same room!

I also think it's a lot of personal preference too.  Me?  I don't care that much, my main thing is getting a light gun system and I don't want to go with a CRT based system only to have to swap it out, and the all-in-one IR solutions are still a bit buggy in my opinion.  My TopGun is already showing signs it's going to break on me, and that's with very causual use.  If this new sonic technology ends up working and works as well as some of the claims...  I might just opt for an LCD over a big CRT.

As far as being 'authentic'...  Well there are some purists that will never give up their arcade monitors.  I do have to smile though when I see someone vehemetly post about how everyone should only use original arcade monitors and then they have a U.S.S Enterprise aircraft carrier size cp hanging off the front of their cab!  Honestly, and this takes me out of the realm of a purist, but I don't see any problem at all with my 21" Trinitron in my cab, and even the LCD HDTV looks fine.  Vector games look clean and crisp on both, and if there is a major difference between the look of the games on my cab as to how they looked on the original arcade, it's none that I noticed or anyone that's played the cab has commented on.  It's just fun playing the games! (Just broke a million on Major Havok! :) )

Sorry about the OT... just my thoughts on LCD...  I really do think there will be a day when CRTs will be a thing of the past, just like Beta max, VHS, and 8 Track... The one upside is, when that day comes if anyone can find a large CRT monitor they'll be able to get a great deal on it if not for free just to take it away!

Blanka

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 08:11:28 am »
Well, it looks like the image I posted, not the one you posted with the contrast cranked to a million.
I decranked, not cranked ;)
What screen is in your bartop?

leapinlew

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 09:19:11 am »
So ask yourself how true your image is compared to what your eyes see.
Seriously?  ::)

Anyhow, here is some video of my LCD playing. It's not perfect - I prefer CRT's, but LCD's look good enough now that I don't mind using them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10fPGXbAjRM[/youtube]

leapinlew

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 09:25:03 am »
I've used CRT's and LCD's. Both of them need some tinting on the front glass to assist with the black levels. Not sure why you guys are making a big fuss about the backlight. It seems simple to me, if you don't like it - don't use them. Some of us use them because of the sharper picture or for any number of space/size/heat issues.

TOK

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 09:33:41 am »
Well, it looks like the image I posted, not the one you posted with the contrast cranked to a million.
I decranked, not cranked ;)
What screen is in your bartop?

Its an LG L1933.

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 09:56:02 pm »
Dark tinted glass does not help as the contrast stays the same. The problem is the brightness of the backlight.

While this is true, what is important to note is not so much the contrast, but the black levels.  If the brights are very bright and the blacks are washed out no matter how much you adjust the display, it makes perfect sense to use tinted glass.  The difference in the image will be considerable.

While the contrast levels remain constant, richer blacks and still very acceptable image brightness will result from the darker glass.  Very much the same benefits that are achieved when using a tinted window with a CRT

RandyT

Blanka

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 02:48:19 am »
While this is true, what is important to note is not so much the contrast, but the black levels.
Yeah, I know, but then it is even better to have an ambient light sensor. My LCD is black in a dark room, but is also very bright with deep black at daytime. The backlight adjusts to circumstances. If you use tinted glass, you also limit output when you have much ambient light. OK maybe when it is in the basement, but here it is in the living room surround by many windows.

Ummon

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2008, 05:19:55 pm »
I have no LCD agenda, I just see Ummon posting a lot of misinformation. Like a pic of a CRT as an example of why he doesn't like LCD's.



No misinformation. I posted an example of something that in that case looked the same as LCDs so people would have an UNFAMILIAR example that would actually allow them to understand what they weren't seeing when looking at pictures of LCDs, or LCDs up close for that matter. They simply didn't understand the concept, otherwise.

Incidentally, this post isn't at all about 'authenticity'. It's just illuminating (hah) a certain phenomenon. As for my preference, I like that deep black behind things; or that rich contrast. For that matter, that's why I like 15khz displays, because the luminosity is so brilliant in a way others just aren't and can't be. But that's getting off-topic a little.

@Blanka: variable backlighting, eh?  Sounds neat.
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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2008, 07:50:10 pm »
CRT sucks, its a dangerous analog dinosaur technology being left behind by its own manufacturers for good reason.

Was that not subtle enough?

I meant to say I prefer LCD's after owning a half dozen CRT's.

But alas, I still have a CRT in my arcade so it seems I am behind enemy lines or perhaps part of the problem.

Damn, it makes me feel like the Cuban general on Red Dawn sometimes.
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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 11:03:38 am »
CRT sucks, its a dangerous analog dinosaur technology
Well LCD has a 2KV section too, which can turn you into a "Croque Monsieur" as well.

pinballwizard79

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 03:22:55 pm »
Thanks for the advice Blanka,

I will make sure to remember that next time the back of my flat panel is off as I wire up a homemade harness to to the video board & tweak the image settings with a screwdriver in a blind spot while fearing the isolation transformer near my feet after hours of trial & error configuration with special graphic cards & drivers after installing a cap kit on a low res monitor with burn in assembled in 1994 without hopes of acquiring a 4 year service plan at time of completion.

Nah, I will just leave the LCD in its case, plug it into a regular card via HDMI & use the remote to change settings while enjoying a 1080p resolution on all of my favorite emulators.

LOL..calm down..I just wanted to be LCD righteous for a little bit to balance out all the LCD haters, unfortunately I must go now & play MK3 on my CRT  ;D

Sometimes we need to stir the pot  >:D
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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 03:25:18 pm »
Also, when I watch the three stooges I make sure its on an old black & white RCA receiving its signal via rabbit ears to ensure authenticity.

Because its wrong to watch them via satellite or DVD on my plasma or LCoS.

HAHAHA ;)
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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 03:30:51 pm »
Also, when I watch the three stooges I make sure its on an old black & white RCA receiving its signal via rabbit ears to ensure authenticity.

Because its wrong to watch them via satellite or DVD on my plasma or LCoS.

HAHAHA ;)


Erm, you mean in a theater projected off of black and white film, right?  Because people didn't have TVs back in the late 30s.   ;D

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 03:54:24 pm »
LOL :cheers:

Now of course this is way off topic but every now & then on ebay you will see someone selling all 194 episodes on 40 dvd's.
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Ummon

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 09:37:12 pm »
Okay, I got a new example to show, particularly the latter three images. This is the most incriminating one:

Yo. Chocolate.


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People often confuse expressed observations with complaint, ridicule, or - even worse - self-pity.

leapinlew

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 10:16:18 pm »
Would someone bring up nazi's and world war II so this thread will die?

Here is a picture of my latest project. The top screen is a LCD, while the bottom screen is a CRT. No tinting.


Here is a youtube video so you can see the LCD in action.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 10:21:50 pm by leapinlew »

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 11:22:23 pm »
That is slick looking! :cheers:

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2008, 01:11:00 am »
Is it completely inconceivable that some people might not know how to properly set their contrast and brightness settings??

That and there is a wide range of LCDs out there, many pretty crappy and not meant for gaming. (Now the Samsung XX6BW and XX6BW+ lines, those are niiicce)

PS: Yes, CRTs are disappearing. Rick Nieman of Nieman Video Displays has been buying up stock of CRT tubes and [according to him] they are less and less common.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 01:59:51 am by RayB »
NO MORE!!

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2008, 01:26:08 am »
LOL, I wish my iphone was CRT, damn LCD sucks  :laugh2:
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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2008, 08:54:25 pm »
Yeah, clever-looking project, lew. So that others looking to use one will know what to get, what make and model is that? Also, maybe my italics above didn't accurately convey my humor. Regardless, I'm just pointing out examples that I think aren't adequate. I'm certainly not against ones that are, such as lew's apparently is.
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People often confuse expressed observations with complaint, ridicule, or - even worse - self-pity.

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2008, 01:24:50 am »
Anybody ever just "play" those fancy arcade machines?

Its much more about relative and perceived contrast than it is about absolute contrast.  Check out any movie theater or decent home theater front projector setup.  What "color" is the screen?  Generally somewhere between white and silver gray.  Guess what?  The darkets "black" that a projection screen can produce is the color of the screen as visible in whatever abient light is around during the show.  And there is often much more ambient light than you directly perceive.  Reflection off of the ceiling, side-lighting, etc.  Your brain creates the differential contrast, and assigns the darkest color to be black.

Sure, CRT's produce the "truest" blacks, but they also produce ghosting and image trailing problems when you have a very bright object on a dark background.  No single display technology is perfect. 

I will certainly concede that CRT's produce the most arcade authentic experience however...

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Re: LCD backlighting - this is what it looks like
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2008, 09:45:24 pm »
I like that 'trailing' effect on CRTs. CRTs are like film; LCDs are like early 90s cartoons - at the very least with respect to games before about '90.
Yo. Chocolate.


"Theoretical physics has been the most successful and cost-effective in all of science."

Stephen Hawking


People often confuse expressed observations with complaint, ridicule, or - even worse - self-pity.