Wii Mote Clone for PC. Cab Friendly? Stix

[lingpanda]

www.GoLive2.com

I wonder how well this would work with mame and other emus?

[TPB]

Very interesting !

It could be the holy grail for a MAME light gun.

Especially the upcoming Stix 400.

[mhermann]

If it will work depends how it is implemented. The site doesn't have any details. We will have to wait and see.

[wbassett]

The site really didn't have much information at all.  This is for the PC right?  It sure sounds like it from the brief desciption.

It looks like a Wii mote clone, which is good and bad... good (actually great) that we're seeing third part products like this and also it means there should be some sort of driver.  Bad...  It could be like the TopGun and basically use a hacked version of Glovepie and then tell people to just use Glovepie and then two years later put out a working driver set- Even worse, depending on whether this is sanctioned by Nintendo, it could be copyright infringement and disappear before it even gets to market.

I hope this is for real and has real PC drivers!  Like mhermann said... we'll have to wait and see.

[lingpanda]

I'd like to use this as an all in 1 tool for driving and and shooting games.

[wbassett]

Find a flat surface near the PC to place the Stix™ Base.

Make sure there are no obstructions blocking the path between the controller and the Base.

Turn your Stix™ on by pressing the power button located on top of the controller. The LED lights will illuminate when the controller is on.

      Note: Your Stix™ will go into sleep mode after 15 minutes. If this happens, just press the power button to turn it back on.

To install the software, connect the Stix™ Base to the USB port on your PC. The GoLive2 Stix™ page will launch automatically. Download and install the software on the page. (Tou will need a GoLive2 account to download the software.)

      Note: If the web site does not launch when you connect the Stix™ Base to your PC, try unpluggin and reconnecting the USB cable.

After the Stix™ controller is connected and turned on, it will automatically sync with the base. The base will detect up to two Stix™ controllers in the area and assign each either Player 1 or Player 2. Synchronization is complete when the LED lights stop blinking.

      Note: The set up and installation steps listed here apply to both the Stix™ 200 and Stix™ 400 systems

Okay, still not a ton of information but it's starting to sound like it's definitely not quite exactly like the Wii mote.

I didn't see anything mention any LED sensor bars for tracking.  

Make sure there are no obstructions blocking the path between the controller and the Base.

Line of sight, so it's not Bluetooth, or RF tech.  It sounds more like it's IR tech.


It kinda looks like it has a 'trigger' but nothing on the site mentions anything about the buttons.  I found a link to the manuals in pdf, but the links don't work.

[Timstuff]

Unless it has an IR camera, it's probably a useless piece of junk for the average BYOACer. The IR camera is what makes the Wiimote such a marvel to lightgun enthusiasts, and if this thing only copies the motion sensors (and not the IR camera / sensor bar), then as a lightgun it's not good for anything.

[TPB]

Unless it has an IR camera, it's probably a useless piece of junk for the average BYOACer.

Timstuff,

I think you're on the money.

There's no mention in the Stix setup instructions of any Sensor Bar.

It's a nice gimmick, but won't be useful as as lightgun.


The three viable options remain :

**  LCD Topgun, versions I & II;

**  WiiMote (if anyone ever successfully writes a low-level mouse driver, or analogue joystick driver, for it);

**  This interface for Happ lightguns (if it passes the evaluation tests, that are currently being conducted by Happ) :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=81154.0

[mark shaker]

I've used a Think Optics "WaveIt" remote for as my media center remote control for months. It does have a sensor bar.  It's fast and accurate. But, I've never tried any games.

http://www.thinkoptics.com/WavitHome.html

   - Mark

[wbassett]

Unless it has an IR camera, it's probably a useless piece of junk for the average BYOACer. The IR camera is what makes the Wiimote such a marvel to lightgun enthusiasts, and if this thing only copies the motion sensors (and not the IR camera / sensor bar), then as a lightgun it's not good for anything.

I agree, without the camera and any LED sensors for tracking, it would probably function like a Gyration Air Mouse, and I have one of those and tried it and for a light gun application it's useless.

If that's what this basically is, then the Gyration setup is actually better for an air mouse, at least in my opinion.  It will be interesting to see exactly what this thing is and what it can do.

[mhermann]

I posted on their forums and sent an email to them saying I would like to develop for their product hoping to get some more info. But they didn't respond to either. My gut feeling is that this will not be a good solution.

[wbassett]

I tried calling them a couple of times and could never get a real person.  I left a couple of messages and so far haven't gotten a call back... not a very good sign.

This one does look interesting though.  A bit expensive but interesting...

I've used a Think Optics "WaveIt" remote for as my media center remote control for months. It does have a sensor bar.  It's fast and accurate. But, I've never tried any games.

http://www.thinkoptics.com/WavitHome.html

   - Mark

[mhermann]

So Mark Shaker, care to test the use of that Wavit in mame? Or at a minimum how is it recognized in Windows? As a mouse? Joystick? Wondering if 2 of them could be hooked up. But that setup would cost like $220. A little steep.

[mark shaker]

So Mark Shaker, care to test the use of that Wavit in mame? Or at a minimum how is it recognized in Windows? As a mouse? Joystick? Wondering if 2 of them could be hooked up. But that setup would cost like $220. A little steep.

I uninstalled their fancy multi-function software (which was a bit flaky). With just the driver installed, Windows sees it as a mouse.

I wooted mine for $69. Still expensive, but better than $99.

I'll install MAME on my living room PC and try a couple light gun games on Sunday.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

BTW: I bought the WaveIt as my media center mouse only after using my WiiMote with a Bluetooth Dongle and the WiinRemote driver on my PC.

After changing the WiinRemote driver to use the optical sensor rather than the motion sensor and assigning "double click" to the trigger: The WiiMote made an *awesome* PC mouse.

There was only one problem: I had to manually pair the WiiMote with my PC every time I turned the PC on.

If it was not for that issue, I would have stayed with the WiiMote.  If your only going to do occasional gaming and don't mind going through the pairing process before each gaming session: You would be better off buying a WiiMote for $40 and a Bluetooth Dongle for $10.

   - Mark

[mhermann]

Problem the wiimote, as it is currently implemented on the PC, will not work with 2 player lightgun games. There are a few efforts going on to correct this but nothing done as of yet.

But thanks for checking this out for us. Let us know the results.

[mark shaker]

Problem the wiimote, as it is currently implemented on the PC, will not work with 2 player lightgun games. There are a few efforts going on to correct this but nothing done as of yet.

But thanks for checking this out for us. Let us know the results.

I'm sorry to report a complete failure in using the WaveIt with MAME.

I used MAME32 V112. I enabled mouse input and mapped the mouse to Lightgun controls, but I was not able to map WaveIt input (directional axis or button presses) to the game controls.

Let me know if there is anything else I should try.

   - Mark

[NickG]

^ Mame32 can mess up some lightgun setups.  Have you tried regular MAME?

[mark shaker]

^ Mame32 can mess up some lightgun setups.  Have you tried regular MAME?

Getting closer:

   mame eggventr -mouse
      No results.

   mame eggventr -lightgun
       The cursor tracks perfectly.
       Mame does not recognize pressing buttons on the WaveIt.
       (I was not able to map any WaveIt button to "Player 1 Button 1".
       I was able to play by aiming with the WaveIt and using my keyboard's
       Enter Key to fire.

   mame eggventr -lightgun -mouse -joystick
      Same results as the -lightgun option alone.

   - Mark

[mhermann]

So the waveit does not appear to be recognized by windows as a true mouse but some other input device. I say this because you have to set the lightgun command on MAME. SOmeone else correct me if I am wrong.

[wbassett]

I thought the Wii mote did support two motes through GlovePie?

[mhermann]

It does support 2 in Windows. But if you try to then use them in MAME no dice. If you were to design a new game in windows you could use 2 wiimotes. The problem is with MAME.

[wbassett]

Well they actually called me back today, so that's at least a positive thing.

The bad vibe though was they really didn't have any information or sounded like they knew their own product... bad sign, especially when she said Amazon should start selling them very soon.

Okay, so what's the price?  Oddly, even though she said they should be sold on Amazon very soon, she had no idea what the price would be. 

She even said I was the first person to even call them if you can imagine that!  She did take my email and said she'd ask the engineers my questions and get back to me.

Right now I don't think we can definitely count them out, but so far it's not looking like it's going to blow our socks off.

[RandyT]

   mame eggventr -lightgun
       The cursor tracks perfectly.
       Mame does not recognize pressing buttons on the WaveIt.
       (I was not able to map any WaveIt button to "Player 1 Button 1".
       I was able to play by aiming with the WaveIt and using my keyboard's
       Enter Key to fire.

So what kind of accuracy were you getting?  How far away from the screen did you need to be?

Did it give you a true "light gun" feel?

[mark shaker]

So what kind of accuracy were you getting?  How far away from the screen did you need to be?

Did it give you a true "light gun" feel?

Randy,

I played MAME Egg Venture and Wii House of the Dead 2 back to back, so that I could give you a true WaveIt to Wiimote comparison.

The WaveIt does *not* have a true light gun feel. However, it does have a true Wiimote feel.


As you know:

Light guns actually measure their position against the screen, so they are very accurate and do not require an onscreen cursor.

The Wiimote and WaveIt measure their position against IR beacons. If the relative IR Beacon position and the actual aimed at screen position are close enough, the user doesn't notice the difference. (Having an onscreen cursor goes a long way it tricking the user to believe that they are aiming at the screen.)


The WaveIt worked anywhere from just over 2' to about 12' from my 50" screen. (It might have worked even closer, but my "sensor bar" is not sitting on the edge of a surface, so the IR beacons may be reflecting from the surface and confusing the WaveIt.)

The WaveIt was very accurate in that it was repeatable.

The WaveIt cursor lags by a fraction of a second. (Again, like a Wiimote.)

   - Mark

[wbassett]

I played MAME Egg Venture and Wii House of the Dead 2 back to back, so that I could give you a true WaveIt to Wiimote comparison.

The WaveIt does *not* have a true light gun feel. However, it does have a true Wiimote feel.


As you know:

Light guns actually measure their position against the screen, so they are very accurate and do not require an onscreen cursor.

The Wiimote and WaveIt measure their position against IR beacons. If the relative IR Beacon position and the actual aimed at screen position are close enough, the user doesn't notice the difference. (Having an onscreen cursor goes a long way it tricking the user to believe that they are aiming at the screen.)


The WaveIt worked anywhere from just over 2' to about 12' from my 50" screen. (It might have worked even closer, but my "sensor bar" is not sitting on the edge of a surface, so the IR beacons may be reflecting from the surface and confusing the WaveIt.)

The WaveIt was very accurate in that it was repeatable.

The WaveIt cursor lags by a fraction of a second. (Again, like a Wiimote.)

   - Mark

Good reporting Mark!

Were you ever able to get the buttons to be recognized within Mame?

As far as the 'light gun feel',  I think you guys nailed it in a sense that it's part trickery to our brain.  The Wii mote by itself doesn't feel like a gun at all, put it in a Nyko Perfect Shot and now it 'feels' like a gun. 

The TopGun and GunCon3 also use sensor bars and are very much the same type of technology, so if we can get the buttons mapped and then into some form that looks like a gun, we'll think we are using a light gun!

[RandyT]

Yes, thanks much for the report.

The WaveIt does *not* have a true light gun feel. However, it does have a true Wiimote feel.

That's unfortunate

The Wiimote and WaveIt measure their position against IR beacons. If the relative IR Beacon position and the actual aimed at screen position are close enough, the user doesn't notice the difference. (Having an onscreen cursor goes a long way it tricking the user to believe that they are aiming at the screen.)

That doesn't mean that it can't function like any other gun control, just that a calibration step would be required every time one moved the IR LEDs.

The WaveIt worked anywhere from just over 2' to about 12' from my 50" screen.

This is a much better range of operation than the TopGun.

The WaveIt cursor lags by a fraction of a second. (Again, like a Wiimote.)

Arghh!  From what I understand, there is some "smoothing" taking place.  That may be responsible for some of the lag.  So far, I have not been a fan of the Wiimote because of that odd feel of it being a sluggish mouse control, rather than a fast tracking "gun" type device.

As far as the 'light gun feel',  I think you guys nailed it in a sense that it's part trickery to our brain.  The Wii mote by itself doesn't feel like a gun at all, put it in a Nyko Perfect Shot and now it 'feels' like a gun. 

The TopGun and GunCon3 also use sensor bars and are very much the same type of technology, so if we can get the buttons mapped and then into some form that looks like a gun, we'll think we are using a light gun!

Well, maybe not.  While a plastic grip might make it feel like a gun physically, the feel I was referring to is the immediate "shoot where you point" feel.  Any amount of perceivable lag is bad, bad, bad for shooting games.  And if a cursor is necessary, you might as well use your mouse, or one of those funky "gyro mouse guns".

Again, perhaps if position sampling / smoothing could be disabled the performance would tighten up.  A little jitter with a light gun is far better than lag.  But I do understand why stabilization code would be important when it is used as a pointer.  It's just that it's a different design philosophy that doesn't always lend itself well to other applications.

RandyT

[wbassett]

As far as the 'light gun feel',  I think you guys nailed it in a sense that it's part trickery to our brain.  The Wii mote by itself doesn't feel like a gun at all, put it in a Nyko Perfect Shot and now it 'feels' like a gun. 

The TopGun and GunCon3 also use sensor bars and are very much the same type of technology, so if we can get the buttons mapped and then into some form that looks like a gun, we'll think we are using a light gun!

Well, maybe not.  While a plastic grip might make it feel like a gun physically, the feel I was referring to is the immediate "shoot where you point" feel.  Any amount of perceivable lag is bad, bad, bad for shooting games.  And if a cursor is necessary, you might as well use your mouse, or one of those funky "gyro mouse guns".

Again, perhaps if position sampling / smoothing could be disabled the performance would tighten up.  A little jitter with a light gun is far better than lag.  But I do understand why stabilization code would be important when it is used as a pointer.  It's just that it's a different design philosophy that doesn't always lend itself well to other applications.

RandyT

Good points.  The lag as well as the cursor 'drift' on the TopGun is one of my biggest complaints.  It works good for general 'blob' shooting, but when you have to be able to aim and shoot quickly and accurately, then it shows some weakness.  I don't have the new drivers installed yet.  I planned on swapping out my Mame PC's the other weekend but work ended up changing my plans.  I hope the new drivers fix some of the issues.

Both my TopGun and the GunCon3 both have a split second lag like Mark mentioned.  Even so, in Time Crisis 4 in the mini games I can make it through all the target shooting, and as the games progress your speed and accuracy also have to progress.  The main difference between the two guns is the cursor on the GunCon3 doesn't drift to different positions throughout the screen like my TopGun does.

I haven't tried my Wii mote in Mame yet.  Partly because my work schedule has been crazy lately and partly because I'm trying to hold off for something better than GlovePie.  I will be testing out the new Happ controller with actual arcade light guns, but I have to admit I am really more excited about going wireless and having custom guns

My verdict is still out on the Wii mote.  The people I've talked to said their setup is very responsive and accurate, so I still think there's hope.   My opinion is that if any lag issues can be resolved then something like the Wii mote, the Stiks 200, or the WaveIt should work fine and feel the same as the TopGun or GunCon3.  Well, as long as they feel like a gun in your hand and when you point at something and shoot it falls down!

Slightly off topic, but anyone know of a small profile wireless USB dongle?  Not for the PC end but for the device end?

[agrunnet]

Just to clarify, are you referring to the Stix or the Wavit? 
The Wavit folks should be very responsive. Try writing to support@thinkoptics.com.   

I tried calling them a couple of times and could never get a real person.  I left a couple of messages and so far haven't gotten a call back... not a very good sign.

This one does look interesting though.  A bit expensive but interesting...

I've used a Think Optics "WaveIt" remote for as my media center remote control for months. It does have a sensor bar.  It's fast and accurate. But, I've never tried any games.

http://www.thinkoptics.com/WavitHome.html

   - Mark

[wbassett]

Just to clarify, are you referring to the Stix or the Wavit? 
The Wavit folks should be very responsive. Try writing to support@thinkoptics.com.   

I tried calling them a couple of times and could never get a real person.  I left a couple of messages and so far haven't gotten a call back... not a very good sign.

This one does look interesting though.  A bit expensive but interesting...

I've used a Think Optics "WaveIt" remote for as my media center remote control for months. It does have a sensor bar.  It's fast and accurate. But, I've never tried any games.

http://www.thinkoptics.com/WavitHome.html

   - Mark

Yeah it was Stix, but since that post they did call me back.  I explained what our interest in and what we would be using it for and they said they would check with the engineers and see it it will work the way we want it to.

[mark shaker]

Were you ever able to get the {WaveIt} buttons to be recognized within Mame?

Nope.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

Well, maybe not.  While a plastic grip might make it feel like a gun physically, the feel I was referring to is the immediate "shoot where you point" feel.  Any amount of perceivable lag is bad, bad, bad for shooting games.  And if a cursor is necessary, you might as well use your mouse, or one of those funky "gyro mouse guns".

Again, perhaps if position sampling / smoothing could be disabled the performance would tighten up.  A little jitter with a light gun is far better than lag.  But I do understand why stabilization code would be important when it is used as a pointer.  It's just that it's a different design philosophy that doesn't always lend itself well to other applications.

RandyT

I'm looking forward to the Groovy Game Gear solution! 

    - Mark

[wbassett]

What are they working on Mark?

[mark shaker]

What are they working on Mark?

The WaveIt buttons function with the WaveIt software, and as a Windows mouse.

I was playing MAME by aiming with the WaveIt and firing with the keyboard.

   - Mark

[wbassett]

I'm looking forward to the Groovy Game Gear solution! 

    - Mark

Sorry I meant what is Groovy Game working on for a solution?

[TheShanMan]

I believe it's nothing more than Mark's dream (of course, many would share that dream!).

[mark shaker]

I believe it's nothing more than Mark's dream (of course, many would share that dream!).

True. I was just being a brat and giving RandyT a not very subtile hint.

Wireless any monitor compatible MAME compatible light guns. Mmmmmm!

   - Mark

[lingpanda]

http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/eMMuRj_N6vntHPDycCJAKWhEO9zBvyPH

What about this and a Wiimote for Mame?